Thursday 12th May 2016

Post by **refitman** » Thu 12 May, 2016 7:10 am

Morning all.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 12 May, 2016 7:45 am

Morning all.

I understand your point Paul.
But when you actually live in Wales, and experience the Nat tactics first hand, you tend to see them as not much better than the Tories.

Sorry, but I do not see nationalism as a progressive force, however they dress themselves up to take Labour votes in Scotland or Wales.

It also leaves me pondering whether, if we have a second election, to vote for Elizabeth Evans, the Lib Dem, instead of Labour.

Yes, I hear you cry, Yahyah hates the Lib Dems. But she is an excellent local councillor, has a very high reputation for working for the area, and a 98% vote in her ward after years of public service.

If that happened, yes there would be one less vote in Labour's total %, but if enough people here vote to show Plaid their revulsion we may not be in the same position again.

Also, I'm sorry if my full throated complaints about Plaid offended those who think we should love our supposed progressive Nat pals. But when you live alongside Nats, see their political games first hand they are hard to stomach. They can look very seductive when viewed from distance in England.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 12 May, 2016 7:56 am

@yahyah I really hope you don't do that - vote Lib Dem. If lots of people did that it could jeopardise a regional list seat for Labour and won't achieve a loss for Plaid I'm afraid. They will make some sort of deal next week - and I suspect that will involve slaughtering badgers because that's what Plaid's farmer vote have been on about since Labour got their 29 seats.

Be much better to look at the regions where tactical voting would actually impact on Plaid, Ukip or Tory. It's not mid and west Wales though where we get our two seats from.

I'm feeling distraught because of what might come out of the 'talks' - but there's nothing I can do at present - just wait for the worst. It will include some crowing by Wood and others I'm sure.

Sorry PfY - don't agree with you on this one re not blaming Plaid but going for the Tories / Ukip etc - I'm with yahyah on this. This is Plaid's very deliberate mess - the Tories and Ukip are just happy to be involved.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 12 May, 2016 8:03 am

@yahyah again. Sorry to press the point - but the constituency vote share still counts when they do the regional calculations. Eluned explained the system to me at the outset of the campaign. Complex but if your party gets the constituency seat there's a formula for reducing their over total vote share that counts when they do the regional seats carve up. Labour gets two regional seats in mid and west Wales because we're generally fairly high on constituency vote share - but don't win many - and regional list votes.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 12 May, 2016 8:09 am

Barry Sheerman ‏@BarrySheerman 52m52 minutes ago
Can David Cameron find me anyone on his "living wage" who is able to obtain a mortgage? @UKParliament

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 12 May, 2016 8:20 am

Morning All

Thankfully sanity seems to have returned in Wales with reports that Wood is back talking to Jones. Let's hope she's a bit more sensible this time.

Thanks yahyah and RR2 for your comments. Of course I don't know much about the Nats in either Wales or Scotland because I don't live there. For clarity, I don't see them as progressive. As someone else here wrote recently, they're almost by definition not progressive.

I'm a believer in democracy and I believe the folk who vote Plaid (and Green and even UKIP) deserve to be heard. For me, the Tories are a different matter because they have all the levers of state and huge wealth at their disposition. They are the establishment and exist to keep the rabble at bay. That's why I keep my attention firmly focused on them and try to ignore the nonsense played out by the likes of Clegg in the last parliament and now Wood.

Anyway I'll shut up about it now. Hope it all plays out well for you guys in Wales

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 12 May, 2016 8:20 am

Just to make it clear.

I meant in the constituency vote, where it is a straight Plaid/Lib Dem fight in Ceredigion, not the regional list vote.
Labour came 5th here last week.

&, although I voted to scrap FPTP, am not sure I would again for Westminster.
Under FPTP in Wales, according to something I read, Labour would have had more seats and a majority last week.

All this coalition horse trading is pretty repulsive, but I suppose that's politics. As my other half reminded me last night. It is a dirty business. Wood's just playing the game.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 12 May, 2016 8:23 am

yahyah wrote:Just to make it clear.

I meant in the constituency vote, where it is a straight Plaid/Lib Dem fight.
Labour came 5th last week.

yahyah I can see why you would consider that - Hobson's choice?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 12 May, 2016 8:24 am

Sorry RR - have just seen your second post....will listen, I promise.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 12 May, 2016 8:25 am

yahyah wrote:Just to make it clear.

I meant in the constituency vote, where it is a straight Plaid/Lib Dem fight in Ceredigion, not the regional list vote.
Labour came 5th here last week.

&, although I voted to scrap FPTP, am not sure I would again for Westminster.
Under FPTP in Wales, according to something I read, Labour would have had more seats and a majority last week.

All this coalition horse trading is pretty repulsive, but I suppose that's politics. As my other half reminded me last night. It is a dirty business. Wood's just playing the game.

I know you did yahyah. I was trying to make the point - clumsily I'm afraid cos I'm v tired this morning - that the constituency vote share counts when they work out who gets the regional seats. It's not a completely separate calculation. I didn't know that before this campaign - I do now!

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Thu 12 May, 2016 8:27 am

I think Leanne Wood was after a job share - she talked about this before the election.
She seemed to think that if Plaid was the second party, that could be done.

Plaid are now the second party - but only by a whisker over the Tories.
They have 12 seats, the Tories have 11. Both parties need UKIP for a stab at power.
The Tories got more votes in the constituencies - 215,597, to Plaid's 209,376.
Plaid beat the Tories in the regional vote - 211,548, to the Tories' 190,846.
UKIP didn't get any seats from the constituency votes, just the regional vote.

Wood simply doesn't have enough support in the constituencies to justify being FM.
I don't know if Plaid simply informed the other parties that she was going for it, or if they actually asked for support. I am not inclined to believe a word Hamilton says, for obvious reasons; but after this performance, I don't have a lot of faith in what Plaid and Wood say either.

I hope Carwyn sticks to his guns. It would be very interesting to see what happens to Wood if there was another election.
People don't take kindly to having the piss taken - and it's my view that she has done precisely that.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 12 May, 2016 8:28 am

RR2 thanks for explaining how the voting system works - would there be any times when you would consider voting tactically in your region?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 12 May, 2016 8:30 am

Good to hear Wood is talking to Carwyn or vice versa.

Suspect that a lot of Plaid voters, apart from those who would relish a badger killing deal with UKIP & Tories, were none too happy last night.

My experience here has been of middle class professionals and English incomers like us moving to Plaid from Labour.
They usually mention Blair, New Labour, and Plaid being like 'old' Labour, and that Labour don't stand a chance here so it is a wasted vote.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 12 May, 2016 8:33 am

The reports I've seen are that 'all parties' are having talks in Wales. I presume that means primarily with Carwyn Jones ... but also between others?

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 12 May, 2016 8:39 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:RR2 thanks for explaining how the voting system works - would there be any times when you would consider voting tactically in your region?

The way I have been feeling recently I am probably more likely to stop voting for any of them. I hope it doesn't come to that.

In our constituency vote there is no point to voting tactically. The fight is very definitely - still - between Labour and Tories. The regional system as I've just explained - gives Labour 2 crucial seats based on vote share - so nothing to be gained by voting tactically there either.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 12 May, 2016 8:41 am

yahyah wrote:Good to hear Wood is talking to Carwyn or vice versa.

Suspect that a lot of Plaid voters, apart from those who would relish a badger killing deal with UKIP & Tories, were none too happy last night.

My experience here has been of middle class professionals and English incomers like us moving to Plaid from Labour.
They usually mention Blair, New Labour, and Plaid being like 'old' Labour, and that Labour don't stand a chance here so it is a wasted vote.

The badger killing deal I'm afraid of is one between Plaid and Labour. That's what Plaid insisted on in their previous coalition. That will be the point at which I stop voting for any of them. Labour should be once bitten - never again on that score.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 12 May, 2016 8:59 am

Paul Waugh ‏@paulwaugh 1m1 minute ago
If they thought they are buried this bad news, they haven't.
UQ granted at 10.30 to @johnredwood to ask Crabb re NI numbers for migrants

The report with the information that Jonathan Portes has been asking for - for a long time - is out today. According to reports I saw last night it shows 50,000 more active NI numbers per annum than the migration figures previously published.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 12 May, 2016 9:32 am

Morning all.

Went into school yesterday to observe administration of the SATs papers for the day. Once they arrive they're locked away down in the basement until just before they're needed - not even one pack is opened so nobody - not even teachers - see the paper before they're handed to them by our office staff. think we could give DfE and Pearsons a lesson in security arrangements.

In again to see HT later - might find out just how bad the reading paper was. Lot of sneering going on from what seemed like secondary teachers who don't appear to understand what the paper is testing. They really are random pieces of writing about anything under the sun after which there's a series of questions. There was a lot of complaints one year about a question about pot-holing in Derbeyshire - just the sort of thing our kids would know about...and the person who set the paper lived...in Derbyshire.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 12 May, 2016 9:47 am

Is it just me or has Leanne Wood persisted with a plan that was based on predictions of Labour only winning 25 or 26 seats? We know the Tories and Ukip have claimed Wood at least informed them in advance she was going to attempt to block Jones and go for FM herself, but did she approach the Libdem as well? I'm just still a bit bemused as to how she expected this to play out when she doesn't have the numbers to out vote Labour. All she's done is made a deal with Labour more difficult. She should have scratched Labour's back first and then suggested what she would like in return for ongoing support. Currying favour is always going to be more effective than issuing an ultimatum. It's tricky for Labour now, they can't really agree to anything that would play badly to members, like badger culling, as that would open them to accusations of weakness and lose them votes. And they're not weak. They're in the same position as Sturgeon. Any viable government would have to have Labour in it. The other parties can't change that, so have little to no bargaining power.

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Thu 12 May, 2016 9:50 am

I live in Derbyshire and know nowt about potholes apart from the ones on our roads.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 12 May, 2016 9:54 am

Willow904 wrote:Is it just me or has Leanne Wood persisted with a plan that was based on predictions of Labour only winning 25 or 26 seats? We know the Tories and Ukip have claimed Wood at least informed them in advance she was going to attempt to block Jones and go for FM herself, but did she approach the Libdem as well? I'm just still a bit bemused as to how she expected this to play out when she doesn't have the numbers to out vote Labour. All she's done is made a deal with Labour more difficult. She should have scratched Labour's back first and then suggested what she would like in return for ongoing support. Currying favour is always going to be more effective than issuing an ultimatum. It's tricky for Labour now, they can't really agree to anything that would play badly to members, like badger culling, as that would open them to accusations of weakness and lose them votes. And they're not weak. They're in the same position as Sturgeon. Any viable government would have to have Labour in it. The other parties can't change that, so have little to no bargaining power.

Except the SNP have the Greens to assist if required.

I've yet to see a comparison made of the SNP Sturgeon position and the Welsh Labour Jones position.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 12 May, 2016 10:07 am

Willow904 wrote:Is it just me or has Leanne Wood persisted with a plan that was based on predictions of Labour only winning 25 or 26 seats? We know the Tories and Ukip have claimed Wood at least informed them in advance she was going to attempt to block Jones and go for FM herself, but did she approach the Libdem as well? I'm just still a bit bemused as to how she expected this to play out when she doesn't have the numbers to out vote Labour. All she's done is made a deal with Labour more difficult. She should have scratched Labour's back first and then suggested what she would like in return for ongoing support. Currying favour is always going to be more effective than issuing an ultimatum. It's tricky for Labour now, they can't really agree to anything that would play badly to members, like badger culling, as that would open them to accusations of weakness and lose them votes. And they're not weak. They're in the same position as Sturgeon. Any viable government would have to have Labour in it. The other parties can't change that, so have little to no bargaining power.

This is how I see it too, Labour may have to offer some "sweeties" to PC but I don't see any need for more than that.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 12 May, 2016 10:24 am

Good morfternoon.

Re the In\Out TV debates -

Tuesday 21 June - The final BBC event, two days before the referendum, filmed in front of a huge audience at the SSE Arena in Wembley. David Dimbleby, Mishal Husain and Emily Maitlis will present. The plan is for the debate to feature three figures from each side, but No 10 is particularly unhappy about this proposal, because they don’t want Tories debating Tories, and they claim the large audience could make it rowdy. (Politics Live, Guardian - my emphasis)

Bit late (and pointless) to start worrying about the Tories v Tories thing, isn't it? And we can't have "rowdy", can we?

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Thu 12 May, 2016 10:54 am

PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

Re the In\Out TV debates -

Tuesday 21 June - The final BBC event, two days before the referendum, filmed in front of a huge audience at the SSE Arena in Wembley. David Dimbleby, Mishal Husain and Emily Maitlis will present. The plan is for the debate to feature three figures from each side, but No 10 is particularly unhappy about this proposal, because they don’t want Tories debating Tories, and they claim the large audience could make it rowdy. (Politics Live, Guardian - my emphasis)
Bit late (and pointless) to start worrying about the Tories v Tories thing, isn't it? And we can't have "rowdy", can we?

This entire performance is a farce worthy of Moliere.

We have the PM - not for the first time - refusing to debate the issues with his opponents in public. Sheer cowardice.
We have one out campaign refusing to recognise the other one - with both of 'em pissed off that the PM won't do a debate.
We have the broadcasters farting about trying to accommodate everyone, once again, without an empty chair in sight.

OGRPPFGTCC's mealy-mouthed reasoning, having already set his MPs at each others' throats, that he doesn't want Tories arguing with Tories is risible; that ship sailed some time ago.
When the two main campaign groups were announced, he claimed he was "leading from the front".
One Tory peer aside (Rose), all the big guns are Labour (Will Straw, Alan Johnson), LibDem (Lucy Thomas and James McGrory), with Brendan Barber from the TUC - no Tories - including the PM.

Cameron is a coward. I still can't help wondering how the vote at the GE might have been had Cameron actually had the cojones to debate Ed Miliband in public.
With the alleged election fraud still ongoing, I'm getting close to the view that we really really do have the wrong man at No.10 and not just because Cameron's a wanker.

GetYou · Post by **GetYou** » Thu 12 May, 2016 10:56 am

Brave Dave still showing he's too scared to debate anyone with half a brain.

Stick to abusing people under Parliamentary privilege Dave, it's all you are good for.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Thu 12 May, 2016 11:16 am

The Housing Bill is going to be law.
It's just waiting for Royal Assent.
Kerslake withdrew the last amendment.

This will mean the beginning of the end of council housing in England.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 12 May, 2016 11:23 am

StephenDolan wrote:
Willow904 wrote:Is it just me or has Leanne Wood persisted with a plan that was based on predictions of Labour only winning 25 or 26 seats? We know the Tories and Ukip have claimed Wood at least informed them in advance she was going to attempt to block Jones and go for FM herself, but did she approach the Libdem as well? I'm just still a bit bemused as to how she expected this to play out when she doesn't have the numbers to out vote Labour. All she's done is made a deal with Labour more difficult. She should have scratched Labour's back first and then suggested what she would like in return for ongoing support. Currying favour is always going to be more effective than issuing an ultimatum. It's tricky for Labour now, they can't really agree to anything that would play badly to members, like badger culling, as that would open them to accusations of weakness and lose them votes. And they're not weak. They're in the same position as Sturgeon. Any viable government would have to have Labour in it. The other parties can't change that, so have little to no bargaining power.
Except the SNP have the Greens to assist if required.

I've yet to see a comparison made of the SNP Sturgeon position and the Welsh Labour Jones position.

In stripped down terms the situations are the same - largest party, but no overall majority. It is clear in both cases the only viable government is one with the largest party in it in some form. Sturgeon is heading up a minority government. Suggesting Labour are arrogant in wishing to do the same is inconsistent. Labour can justifiably argue they were counting on Plaid to back them up as the SNP may rely on the Greens because Plaid made it so clear they wouldn't deal with Ukip or the Tories. If Plaid had the numbers to out vote Labour, Labour's actions could appear a little presumptive, but they don't. The development is an interesting one in terms of how the assembly voting system works. It may be that parties will have to make more definitive statements about who they would or wouldn't work with and which policies are priorities before future elections, so voters better understand their choices and what they're voting for.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 12 May, 2016 11:29 am

https://opendemocracy.net/clare-short/w ... ption-book" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

clare-short/why-did-david-cameron-reject-this-essay-from-anti-corruption-book

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Thu 12 May, 2016 11:58 am

From politicshome -

The Electoral Commission has made an application to the High Court to ensure that the Tories disclose information requested by the EC as outlined in statutory notices it issued in February and March with regard to spending returns after the GE.
The Tories supplied "limited" information in response to the statutory notice in February, and none for the one in March. The EC is now asking the court to place a requirement on the party to provide the material it has asked for but not received.

If the EC does not obtain the information it has asked for, it can go back to court. As the Tories have failed to respond adequately to one statutory notice, and not at all to the second, they really have to do so this time.
In April, the party admitted to tens of thousands of expenditure (£38,000 on accommodation for campaigners alone) but did not declare the spending by the constituencies it was spent in, claiming it was part of the national campaign.

According to various sources, more was spent by the BattleBus team on free meals, free bars, etc. on top of the travel and accommodation for the campaigners; there is also plenty of evidence that the campaigners were supporting local candidates, and that the work they were doing was way beyond what a local campaign could normally afford within the spending limits.
Channel 4 say that of the 29 constituencies they identified, had the BattleBus spending been included in the local spending returns, 24 of those constituencies would have spent over the legal limit as set down in the rules.

This is not going away any time soon.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 12 May, 2016 12:23 pm

And this time round Dave's debate dodging might not be treated so indulgently by some in the right wing press.....

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 12 May, 2016 12:25 pm

NHS stats bad. Again. Let's hear it for the Tories.

GetYou · Post by **GetYou** » Thu 12 May, 2016 12:44 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8IkbCeZ9to

Brave Dave.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Thu 12 May, 2016 12:47 pm

StephenDolan wrote:NHS stats bad. Again. Let's hear it for the Tories.

Yup.

Patients waiting longer than 4 hours for treatment in major hospitals in NHS England -
August 2010: 3%
February 2016: 19%

In Wales, it's broken down by Health Board -
Worst-performing: 14%
Best-performing - 0.2%
(December 2015)

It took Labour 5 years from 2000 to 2005 to meet the 98% A&E 4-hour target - and it maintained that for the next 5 years.

It took the Tories less than a year in office to see the targets missed; 6 years on it's still being missed and by a mile.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 12 May, 2016 12:50 pm

John Whittingdale is an unpleasant person.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 12 May, 2016 12:51 pm

Rumours now that a couple of UKIP AMs are going to break ranks and allow Jones to become FM again?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 12 May, 2016 1:01 pm

Part of Welsh UKIP's civil war ?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 12 May, 2016 1:05 pm

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 12 May, 2016 1:09 pm

yahyah wrote:Part of Welsh UKIP's civil war ?

Looks like that - I know people expected a split there, but maybe not *this* quickly........

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 12 May, 2016 1:12 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Rumours now that a couple of UKIP AMs are going to break ranks and allow Jones to become FM again?
Why?

The motivations behind what is going on in the Welsh Assembly are beyond my understanding.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 12 May, 2016 1:15 pm

Have been into town to pick up my new specs and met a neighbour in the Co-Op.
She says her Facebook has been full of angry Plaid friends [she's Green but likes Corbyn].
Sounds like they haven't swallowed the 'arrogant' Labour line. A lot of phoning & emailing Plaid has gone on apparently.

At the Co-Op there was a charity cake bake sale.
The beneficiary is a local lad who needs a high spec wheelchair because of his condition.

At the till, we chatted to the cashier about the fundraising. She said 'the government' wouldn't help the boy's family. Then she made a comment about 'there's plenty of money to spend on migrants though'. What shocked me was the cashier looked fully ethnically Chinese, with a Chinese name on her name tag too.

If even people with non indigenous backgrounds are swallowing the 'it's the foreigners' line what chance do we have ?

I politely pointed out all the facts about immigration, and that we should be concentrating on taxing the wealthy more. It is so depressing though.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 12 May, 2016 1:17 pm

citizenJA wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Rumours now that a couple of UKIP AMs are going to break ranks and allow Jones to become FM again?
Why?
The motivations behind what is going on in the Welsh Assembly are beyond my understanding.

I've lived here for nine years and still find it confusing.
The Welsh press, I find, isn't that good on the nuances.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 12 May, 2016 1:22 pm

Beeb on Gill backing Carwyn.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-poli ... um=twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Oops, forget a lot of what I said about Wood and Kippers last night.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 12 May, 2016 1:26 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Rumours now that a couple of UKIP AMs are going to break ranks and allow Jones to become FM again?
Why?

It did cross my mind that Ukip might prefer to unilaterally break the deadlock rather than risk another election. They will be pleased with their success and facilitating a government almost always comes with its rewards. Instead of Plaid helping a minority government and calling the shots, it could be them. At the end of the day, they are unlikely to improve on their current standing, could never work seriously with the Tories and Plaid so could well prefer to get on with it and hope Labour remember their favour with kindness. It's what I'd do. Indeed, by outflanking Plaid with a mere 7 seats, I could almost be impressed if it wasn't quite so dastardly!

Edited to correct Ukips seats from 6 to 7.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 12 May, 2016 1:28 pm

"The only way the BBC could get more conservative would be to show Leni Riefenstahl's Triumph of the Will on loop..."

https://discussion.theguardian.com/comm ... k/74079734" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 12 May, 2016 1:31 pm

Willow904 wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Rumours now that a couple of UKIP AMs are going to break ranks and allow Jones to become FM again?
Why?
It did cross my mind that Ukip might prefer to unilaterally break the deadlock rather than risk another election. They will be pleased with their success and facilitating a government almost always comes with its rewards. Instead of Plaid helping a minority government and calling the shots, it could be them. At the end of the day, they are unlikely to improve on their current standing, could never work seriously with the Tories and Plaid so could well prefer to get on with it and hope Labour remember their favour with kindness. It's what I'd do. Indeed, by outflanking Plaid with a mere 6 seats, I could almost be impressed if it wasn't quite so dastardly!

I don't see any favour Labour will have received from UKIP at this point. None. A UKIP representative breaking ranks now voting for
Jones now is childish game-playing. What was going on yesterday with PC, UKIP and the Tories? Is that resolved? What was the
point of that exercise? Foolish games.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 12 May, 2016 1:33 pm

JA - this is the live blog of The Western Mail, one of the main Welsh newspapers - it may help

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/polit ... s-11320795" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 12 May, 2016 1:34 pm

Labour have said no deal with Gill according to that.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 12 May, 2016 1:35 pm

Plaid are playing the same game on social media we Labour people were yesterday.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 12 May, 2016 1:36 pm

Carwyn accuses Plaid of turning the Assembly into an episode of Borgen.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 12 May, 2016 1:38 pm

He said it on Radio 4 this lunchtime.