Saturday & Sunday 4th & 5th June 2016

[Tubby Isaacs]

I'm going to ask the question again. Can anyone point me towards the strategy and process for achieving a reformed EU? I've not had a single response each time I've asked about this - both on FTN and in other meetings. It's a pretty crucial question for me. No point in selling me 'Another Europe Is Possible' if there's no hint of how we achieve it.

I'm sorry I can't remember where I read it, and I think it was a journalist rather than a politician, but the strategy suggested was to work through the socialist/left groupings in the EU and member states. Solidarity. Strengthen the left until it can override the neoliberals.
It seems to me to be the only possible way.
In other words, reform is unlikely any time soon.

The neoliberals aren't a homogenous group. Lots of them genuinely care about climate change, capital investment, tax avoidance etc.

[rebeccariots2]

Thanks citizen and PF for your responses. I've had a very quick scan read of them.

Re the first report - presented by Will Straw - it pre dates the Cameron 'renegotiation' and covers quite similar territory but proposes more structural changes to the EU set up overall. Had Cameron bothered to go for more of these kinds of proposals in his renegotiation we might be having a very different debate now ... but he didn't. I don't see how we start another renegotiation for bigger change when / if we have just voted to Remain based on Cameron's pitiful 'reform'. The report itself doesn't say how we go after these reforms ... but then it was drawn up before Cameron's disastrous non negotiation. The second gives a lot of reasons for staying in - chief amongst these that we can only reform if we are still In - but can't see where they say how they think that could be achieved.

PF's resource sort of echoes her short answer of 'political will' being the main force required as it mentions the surge of movements across Europe that want something different. That short answer is probably very true - it's what I keep coming back to in myself - that we actually need a decent government here first of all to get anywhere with the kind of reform we might want - especially as the UK seems to often act as a reactionary force in the EU. But it's also pretty risky given that there are also many other movements gaining political momentum in Europe and the EU - notably the far right. We are very reliant on who / what flavour is in power in the various 28 member states.

I keep coming back to questioning myself about where I can see change for the better being more possible to influence and achieve something. Here in the UK re getting a different kind of government and politics - or in the EU with one of two choices of Tory govt. Eeeek.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Sadly, Cameron having messed everybody about with this referendum, it is harder for Britain to assert.

Good. I don't want what Cameron would be asserting anyway. Maybe if we ever get another Labour government, we'll have a better relationship with the EU, but until then, the fewer things Cameron is able to block, veto or "assert" the better.

Lots in that. He could have gone much more for the single market in services, I suppose, that would have been Good for Britain.

Hague, supposedly such a heavyweight, seemed only to realise about all this after he got into government, having been all "no more powers transferred". I reckon Sir Humphrey probably tapped him on the shoulder about a month in.

"Foreign Secretary, I read the Coalition Agreement, and very good it is too, if I may say so. Just one little thing occurred to me..."

[ohsocynical]

PROSPECT THEORY & POPULISM
http://stumblingandmumbling.typepad.com ... ulism.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Worth a read.

That does make a great deal of sense in theory, especially the taking a risk when feeling you have nothing to lose, but in practise I still struggle to see how Farage and Trump convince as "non-establishment" figures when to me they just look like more of the same with knobs on. (And I mean that both figuratively and literally, both being typical of Michael Moore's "Stupid White Men" that seem to have a kamikaze stranglehold on global politics and commerce).

I've heard from a couple of relatives in the States who are weeping and wailing over Trump and worrying panicking about what's going to happen if he gets in.
Both are republicans. In the past both have faithfully voted for some of the most rabid right wing politicians you'd ever want to meet.
I have kept my mouth shut, but what do they expect after supporting ever more right leaning candidates every couple of years?

[Tubby Isaacs]

Thanks citizen and PF for your responses. I've had a very quick scan read of them.

Re the first report - presented by Will Straw - it pre dates the Cameron 'renegotiation' and covers quite similar territory but proposes more structural changes to the EU set up overall. Had Cameron bothered to go for more of these kinds of proposals in his renegotiation we might be having a very different debate now ... but he didn't. I don't see how we start another renegotiation for bigger change when / if we have just voted to Remain based on Cameron's pitiful 'reform'. The report itself doesn't say how we go after these reforms ... but then it was drawn up before Cameron's disastrous non negotiation. The second gives a lot of reasons for staying in - chief amongst these that we can only reform if we are still In - but can't see where they say how they think that could be achieved.

PF's resource sort of echoes her short answer of 'political will' being the main force required as it mentions the surge of movements across Europe that want something different. That short answer is probably very true - it's what I keep coming back to in myself - that we actually need a decent government here first of all to get anywhere with the kind of reform we might want - especially as the UK seems to often act as a reactionary force in the EU. But it's also pretty risky given that there are also many other movements gaining political momentum in Europe and the EU - notably the far right. We are very reliant on who / what flavour is in power in the various 28 member states.

I keep coming back to questioning myself about where I can see change for the better being more possible to influence and achieve something. Here in the UK re getting a different kind of government and politics - or in the EU with one of two choices of Tory govt. Eeeek.

The UK is the second most powerful country in the EU, jointly with France. We're not Slovakia.

[rebeccariots2]

Thanks citizen and PF for your responses. I've had a very quick scan read of them.

Re the first report - presented by Will Straw - it pre dates the Cameron 'renegotiation' and covers quite similar territory but proposes more structural changes to the EU set up overall. Had Cameron bothered to go for more of these kinds of proposals in his renegotiation we might be having a very different debate now ... but he didn't. I don't see how we start another renegotiation for bigger change when / if we have just voted to Remain based on Cameron's pitiful 'reform'. The report itself doesn't say how we go after these reforms ... but then it was drawn up before Cameron's disastrous non negotiation. The second gives a lot of reasons for staying in - chief amongst these that we can only reform if we are still In - but can't see where they say how they think that could be achieved.

PF's resource sort of echoes her short answer of 'political will' being the main force required as it mentions the surge of movements across Europe that want something different. That short answer is probably very true - it's what I keep coming back to in myself - that we actually need a decent government here first of all to get anywhere with the kind of reform we might want - especially as the UK seems to often act as a reactionary force in the EU. But it's also pretty risky given that there are also many other movements gaining political momentum in Europe and the EU - notably the far right. We are very reliant on who / what flavour is in power in the various 28 member states.

I keep coming back to questioning myself about where I can see change for the better being more possible to influence and achieve something. Here in the UK re getting a different kind of government and politics - or in the EU with one of two choices of Tory govt. Eeeek.

The UK is the second most powerful country in the EU, jointly with France. We're not Slovakia.

Yeah - but look who we've got batting for us. That's the issue.

[ohsocynical]

Thanks citizen and PF for your responses. I've had a very quick scan read of them.

Re the first report - presented by Will Straw - it pre dates the Cameron 'renegotiation' and covers quite similar territory but proposes more structural changes to the EU set up overall. Had Cameron bothered to go for more of these kinds of proposals in his renegotiation we might be having a very different debate now ... but he didn't. I don't see how we start another renegotiation for bigger change when / if we have just voted to Remain based on Cameron's pitiful 'reform'. The report itself doesn't say how we go after these reforms ... but then it was drawn up before Cameron's disastrous non negotiation. The second gives a lot of reasons for staying in - chief amongst these that we can only reform if we are still In - but can't see where they say how they think that could be achieved.

PF's resource sort of echoes her short answer of 'political will' being the main force required as it mentions the surge of movements across Europe that want something different. That short answer is probably very true - it's what I keep coming back to in myself - that we actually need a decent government here first of all to get anywhere with the kind of reform we might want - especially as the UK seems to often act as a reactionary force in the EU. But it's also pretty risky given that there are also many other movements gaining political momentum in Europe and the EU - notably the far right. We are very reliant on who / what flavour is in power in the various 28 member states.

I keep coming back to questioning myself about where I can see change for the better being more possible to influence and achieve something. Here in the UK re getting a different kind of government and politics - or in the EU with one of two choices of Tory govt. Eeeek.

We need to get rid of the UKIP MEPs before we can think of reform. They so don't believe in the EU, they rarely bother to turn up, let alone fight for a better deal for us. And when they have bothered to put themselves out it's to block decent legislation.
It doesn't make sense for people who hate the EU and moan about what it costs, to then vote for an MEP, who can't be arsed to at least get us a better deal while we are in.

[Willow904]

PROSPECT THEORY & POPULISM
http://stumblingandmumbling.typepad.com ... ulism.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Worth a read.

Interesting ... The risk factor undoubtedly makes sense with the 'what have we got to lose' attitude, but will/do they actually vote? I'm not sure.

If the Tories hadn't pushed people's 'blame someone else button' and shown such a callous attitude when it comes to certain groups of emigrants, [those fleeing war] then I don't think Brexit would be looking so likely.

Going through Twitter posts, I can't tell the difference between Brexiters and Kipper supporters. They all come across as appalling Little Englanders, and those that have been getting up my nose on Twitter this weekend don't seem to be poor & at the bottom of the heap ...
I've just had to mute one as she started on about all those who died for their country and where's our pride in nationality gone.

Yes, good point. Poor, marginalised people may favour brexit but will they actually vote? Any more than young people favouring remain, who may not turn out in large numbers either. Personally to me it looks like a straight fight between small "c" conservative Little Englanders, as you say, from Ukip and the Eurosceptic right of the Tory party and progressives from the Libdems, Labour and left wing of the Tory party. Plus a whole lot of unpredictable votes for all sorts of unknowable reasons from everywhere else! Neither "in" or " out" offers any kind of solution to our most pressing problems, such as the housing crisis and growing pensioner population, though, which is the most depressing thing about all of this. I'll be glad when it's over.

[Willow904]

I'd add to the above that I would class RebeccaRiot's possible "out" vote in the unpredictable for other reasons category rather than the Little Englander one. (Obviously, I hope!)

I have to say, although I'll always be a pro-EU, bigger is better, unity over division, kind of person, under different circumstances I would have been less concerned if the verdict was "out". With fixed term parliaments, however, and the way things are shaping up in the Tory party even when constrained by EU rules, the prospect of finding ourselves outside the EU and possibly quite rapidly out of the ECHR as well, is actually quite worrying. My main concern is preventing things from getting a lot worse, rather than worrying about the best route to making things better. I really do think the crossroads we currently find ourselves at is that serious.

[citizenJA]

Thanks citizen and PF for your responses. I've had a very quick scan read of them.

Re the first report - presented by Will Straw - it pre dates the Cameron 'renegotiation' and covers quite similar territory but proposes more structural changes to the EU set up overall. Had Cameron bothered to go for more of these kinds of proposals in his renegotiation we might be having a very different debate now ... but he didn't. I don't see how we start another renegotiation for bigger change when / if we have just voted to Remain based on Cameron's pitiful 'reform'. The report itself doesn't say how we go after these reforms ... but then it was drawn up before Cameron's disastrous non negotiation. The second gives a lot of reasons for staying in - chief amongst these that we can only reform if we are still In - but can't see where they say how they think that could be achieved.

PF's resource sort of echoes her short answer of 'political will' being the main force required as it mentions the surge of movements across Europe that want something different. That short answer is probably very true - it's what I keep coming back to in myself - that we actually need a decent government here first of all to get anywhere with the kind of reform we might want - especially as the UK seems to often act as a reactionary force in the EU. But it's also pretty risky given that there are also many other movements gaining political momentum in Europe and the EU - notably the far right. We are very reliant on who / what flavour is in power in the various 28 member states.

I keep coming back to questioning myself about where I can see change for the better being more possible to influence and achieve something. Here in the UK re getting a different kind of government and politics - or in the EU with one of two choices of Tory govt. Eeeek.

You've done your best. Your vote will be a conscientious one.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Thanks citizen and PF for your responses. I've had a very quick scan read of them.

Re the first report - presented by Will Straw - it pre dates the Cameron 'renegotiation' and covers quite similar territory but proposes more structural changes to the EU set up overall. Had Cameron bothered to go for more of these kinds of proposals in his renegotiation we might be having a very different debate now ... but he didn't. I don't see how we start another renegotiation for bigger change when / if we have just voted to Remain based on Cameron's pitiful 'reform'. The report itself doesn't say how we go after these reforms ... but then it was drawn up before Cameron's disastrous non negotiation. The second gives a lot of reasons for staying in - chief amongst these that we can only reform if we are still In - but can't see where they say how they think that could be achieved.

PF's resource sort of echoes her short answer of 'political will' being the main force required as it mentions the surge of movements across Europe that want something different. That short answer is probably very true - it's what I keep coming back to in myself - that we actually need a decent government here first of all to get anywhere with the kind of reform we might want - especially as the UK seems to often act as a reactionary force in the EU. But it's also pretty risky given that there are also many other movements gaining political momentum in Europe and the EU - notably the far right. We are very reliant on who / what flavour is in power in the various 28 member states.

I keep coming back to questioning myself about where I can see change for the better being more possible to influence and achieve something. Here in the UK re getting a different kind of government and politics - or in the EU with one of two choices of Tory govt. Eeeek.

The UK is the second most powerful country in the EU, jointly with France. We're not Slovakia.

Yeah - but look who we've got batting for us. That's the issue.

Not forever. I was saying it doesn't need anything like 28 progressive governments.

[PorFavor]

I'd add to the above that I would class RebeccaRiot's possible "out" vote in the unpredictable for other reasons category rather than the Little Englander one. (Obviously, I hope!)

I have to say, although I'll always be a pro-EU, bigger is better, unity over division, kind of person, under different circumstances I would have been less concerned if the verdict was "out". With fixed term parliaments, however, and the way things are shaping up in the Tory party even when constrained by EU rules, the prospect of finding ourselves outside the EU and possibly quite rapidly out of the ECHR as well, is actually quite worrying. My main concern is preventing things from getting a lot worse, rather than worrying about the best route to making things better. I really do think the crossroads we currently find ourselves at is that serious.

So do I. I've maybe sometimes hummed and hawed a bit here but, really, I've always been conscious that the stakes are far too high to vote "out".

[letsskiptotheleft]

My sister is a non political sort, she asked me one day what I was voting, said to remain, of course!

She replied, so am I, anything Boris Johnson is in favour of I am not.

You have only got to see the line-up of the leave camp to think anything different, 100 million a week extra for the NHS, save steel jobs, utter bollocks from a rag tag bunch of spivs, lies, lies and more bloody lies.

[ohsocynical]

My sister is a non political sort, she asked me one day what I was voting, said to remain, of course!

She replied, so am I, anything Boris Johnson is in favour of I am not.

You have only got to see the line-up of the leave camp to think anything different, 100 million a week extra for the NHS, save steel jobs, utter bollocks from a rag tag bunch of spivs, lies, lies and more bloody lies.

Yes! Exactly. I don't like the EU, but I've not been able to get past them. Perhaps not the best way to make up my mind, but it's what they are and I fear for the country if they're let loose.

[ohsocynical]

I wonder what the frothers and Little Englanders will do if we vote to stay?

Of course the downside is Farage will still have a job.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I expect affluent (overall) constituencies in the South East to vote Remain. That'll raise a few questions where they're represented by Europhobe frothers. If there's an overall Remain, that ought to shut them up, but probably won't. And I can't see that going down very well.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-35616946" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The frothers don't all represent "blue collar" conservative areas by any means.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Hello, Skippy!

We pay £147m a week net to the EU.

"£100m a week for the NHS", leaves £47m a week for everything else. I'd be surprised if we had to pay less than that into the EU budget.

This looks interesting, from a group not known for being keen on the EU.

http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/wha ... eu-entail/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Despite lacking voting rights and full participation in the EU institutions, Norway must still make a sizeable contribution to the EU budget. Looking at its recent contributions, Norway pays €656m to the EU but gets back around €100m in science and research grants, which makes a per capita net contribution of €107.4. In contrast, Britain’s net contribution of around €9bn works out as €139 per capita.

If we take that Norway figure of £107.4, that's at today's value £84 per head. That works out at something like £104m a week. Oh dear.


If you like knocking your head against walls, try explaining to a Brexiter why we'd have to pay into the EU budget when we weren't members. Even intelligent ones find that very puzzling.

[ohsocynical]

I expect affluent (overall) constituencies in the South East to vote Remain. That'll raise a few questions where they're represented by Europhobe frothers. If there's an overall Remain, that ought to shut them up, but probably won't. And I can't see that going down very well.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-35616946" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The frothers don't all represent "blue collar" conservative areas by any means.

At present the people I've spoken to who want Exit and are flirting with UKIP still aren't too badly off. Their main gripe is you can't walk around Aldi without bumping into a foreigner ... It's as if the needle's stuck in the groove.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I expect affluent (overall) constituencies in the South East to vote Remain. That'll raise a few questions where they're represented by Europhobe frothers. If there's an overall Remain, that ought to shut them up, but probably won't. And I can't see that going down very well.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-35616946" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The frothers don't all represent "blue collar" conservative areas by any means.

At present the people I've spoken to who want Exit and are flirting with UKIP still aren't too badly off. Their main gripe is you can't walk around Aldi without bumping into a foreigner ... It's as if the needle's stuck in the groove.

There's a lot of that, but generally support for EU membership seems to correlate with education level.



Some (old) data on how many people hold degrees in each constituency.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-35616946" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A couple jump out there- Canterbury looks like a strong Remain, but has a strongly anti-EU MP. Same with Altrincham and Sale. Both safe seats, but might be some tension coming?

[mbc1955]

At present the people I've spoken to who want Exit and are flirting with UKIP still aren't too badly off. Their main gripe is you can't walk around Aldi without bumping into a foreigner ... It's as if the needle's stuck in the groove.

And I can't get on a bus into Manchester without seats being occupied by foreigners. So what? The bus still gets there at the same time and I still haven't caught any icky foreigner diseases. Some people are just too precious for words.

[ohsocynical]

At present the people I've spoken to who want Exit and are flirting with UKIP still aren't too badly off. Their main gripe is you can't walk around Aldi without bumping into a foreigner ... It's as if the needle's stuck in the groove.

And I can't get on a bus into Manchester without seats being occupied by foreigners. So what? The bus still gets there at the same time and I still haven't caught any icky foreigner diseases. Some people are just too precious for words.

Precisely. And they forget our local Aldi serves a huge area. People come from all over to shop there. No way is it a snap shot of our immediate area.

[letsskiptotheleft]

Think that graph generalises too much, Gove and Johnson are Oxford grads, they've still a pair of loons though "take back our country" is all they have to offer, take it back to what precisely, a land that probably never existed.. And as for leaving the EU and then wages will rise, please, my aching sides.

I have heard qualified, educated people who work in the NHS say they will vote to leave because of immigration, work in the NHS and complain, ffs, that's when I say that all those lovely, hard working Filipino nurses better go back then.

The whole debate is poisonous, as it was always going to be.

[ohsocynical]

I have a very serious decision to make.

Should I sort out a summer dress because it's supposed to be very hot tomorrow. Or should I wait? Just in case.

[yahyah]

Go for it.

[ohsocynical]

Go for it.

It's going to be such a shock to my system...

[yahyah]

It was warm and sunny here this morning, but thankfully clouded over and cooled so we could walk across the fields and down into the valley.

[yahyah]

Mike Smithson@MSmithsonPB
New Reuters/Ipsos poll finds Clinton with double digit lead over trump 46% to 35%

[ohsocynical]

At present the people I've spoken to who want Exit and are flirting with UKIP still aren't too badly off. Their main gripe is you can't walk around Aldi without bumping into a foreigner ... It's as if the needle's stuck in the groove.

And I can't get on a bus into Manchester without seats being occupied by foreigners. So what? The bus still gets there at the same time and I still haven't caught any icky foreigner diseases. Some people are just too precious for words.

Precisely. And they forget our local Aldi serves a huge area. People come from all over to shop there. No way is it a snap shot of our immediate area.

Mind you, when a houseful of E.Europeans just over the back of our place hosted a 36 hour, non-stop, through the night and into the next day barbecue with a load of friends last weekend --- just for a moment I sympathised with the brexiters.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Think that graph generalises too much, Gove and Johnson are Oxford grads, they've still a pair of loons though "take back our country" is all they have to offer, take it back to what precisely, a land that probably never existed.. And as for leaving the EU and then wages will rise, please, my aching sides.

I have heard qualified, educated people who work in the NHS say they will vote to leave because of immigration, work in the NHS and complain, ffs, that's when I say that all those lovely, hard working Filipino nurses better go back then.

The whole debate is poisonous, as it was always going to be.

Yeah, it was always going to be awful. What on earth Lucas etc were thinking when they called for it, God only knows.

Gove and Johnson reflect the sort of people who get to become politicians, so the leaders of anything are going to be like them. It's a pretty glaring problem with a campaign that's supposed to be anti-establishment, if the best they can do is these two- one the most obvious toady ever, and the other transparently changing his view for personal gain.

Fortunately, it looks overall like people with degrees/NVQ4 are going to be fairly solid for Remain. I'm not saying they're any better than anybody else- they're almost certainly worse than most, given that they support the Tories in General Elections. But it's an interesting dynamic, and a few MPs might get bitten on the arse in their constituencies if there's a Remain.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Looks like that SNP MSP I mentioned last night came back for more on their populist Higher Education policy.

Myself and Lucy Hunter Blackburn have kept going. And another tweeter irate at getting no support for her daughter studying in England.

That's nationalism for you- people who study in "another country" can't have flags stuck on them so easily, so are unimportant. See also the buffoonish prejudice of Adam Price, who reluctantly conceded Welsh students studying in England might get some help if the course wasn't available in Wales. The bastards, eh? Wanting to study in England.

[55DegreesNorth]

Julia Smeaton
8 hrs · Cullercoats ·
It's handy when you are still a little undecided about how you will vote in the referendum, then you are reminded that Michael Gove fronts the Brexit campaign. So unless The Childcatcher from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang is fronting the remain campaign, I think that's that sorted.

[mbc1955]

And I can't get on a bus into Manchester without seats being occupied by foreigners. So what? The bus still gets there at the same time and I still haven't caught any icky foreigner diseases. Some people are just too precious for words.

Precisely. And they forget our local Aldi serves a huge area. People come from all over to shop there. No way is it a snap shot of our immediate area.

Mind you, when a houseful of E.Europeans just over the back of our place hosted a 36 hour, non-stop, through the night and into the next day barbecue with a load of friends last weekend --- just for a moment I sympathised with the brexiters.

I know you don't need telling this, whereas loads of people currently out there planning to vote Leave 'to make Britain Great again' needing it pointing out that your East European neighbours did this because they were a**eholes, not because they were East European.

[ohsocynical]

Jack Seale
‏@jackseale

The Washington Post pretty much nails #Brexit #VoteLeave, I think

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Tubby Isaacs]

Jack Seale
‏@jackseale

The Washington Post pretty much nails #Brexit #VoteLeave, I think

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I used to know Jack. Nice, interesting bloke.

[ohsocynical]

Precisely. And they forget our local Aldi serves a huge area. People come from all over to shop there. No way is it a snap shot of our immediate area.

Mind you, when a houseful of E.Europeans just over the back of our place hosted a 36 hour, non-stop, through the night and into the next day barbecue with a load of friends last weekend --- just for a moment I sympathised with the brexiters.

I know you don't need telling this, whereas loads of people currently out there planning to vote Leave 'to make Britain Great again' needing it pointing out that your East European neighbours did this because they were a**eholes, not because they were East European.

It's got silly too. No-one liked to go to their door and complain or ring the police, simply because they are E. Europeans. Scared of them a wee bit I guess. I was going to holler out of my bedroom window and tell them to shut it or I'd call the cops, but Mr Ohso wouldn't let me. He'd have been over there hammering on their door once upon a time, but hasn't the strength now.

One of their neighbours told Mr Ohso he's at his wits end with them, so there must be more disruption than we hear. He's going to try to get in touch with the guy that rents the house to them. Hopefully the tenancy won't be extended.

It's a shame stuff like it happens...

[Tubby Isaacs]

https://news.mongabay.com/2016/06/ignor ... al-forest/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Poland's UKIPper government trying to cut down primeval forest.

[rebeccariots2]

Jeremy Corbyn to face Labour leadership challenge amid MP's fury over EU Referendum 'sabotage'
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/je ... ip-8111324" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In his speech on Thursday Mr Corbyn backed a ‘Remain’ vote and said Brexit would leave the UK at the mercy of a Tory attack on workers’ rights.

But he preceded his remarks with a carefully-scripted diatribe against the ‘hype’ of the ‘Remain’ campaign, and ridiculing Treasury warnings of a recession if we vote to leave.

His comments panicked other ‘In’ campaigners, who believe winning round Labour voters will be crucial in the knife-edge vote.

He's adopted a much more sensible stance than many out there campaigning IMO. Not joining in with the overblown rhetoric is fine by me - and being clear that there is much that needs to be done to improve the EU is far more credible and reassuring than the utter guff coming from Cameron and Osborne.

Who called for and made a manifesto pledge of this referendum .... you'd think it must have been Corbyn from the way some Labour MPs behave.

General mood at our branch meeting today was that people are utterly fed up with it. Several people said they didn't want it on the agenda at all.

[ohsocynical]

Anyone else know what's going on around the country?
Attendances, reactions?

Lynne Faulkes to Corbyn 50yrs+ Supporters Group
9 hrs ·
Pretty seismic event tonight at Shipley CLP AGM (they supported Yvette Cooper in the leadership elections). 76 turned up (last year there were 25). Two JC supporters were elected chair and vice chair (me) and I was elected delegate to LP conference. After over 50 years as an active LP member and trade unionist, I'm looking forward to my first LP conference!

XXXXXX While most of see this as excellent news, it will doubtless be portrayed by the press and blairites as entryism and a takeover by the 'hard left'!


XXXXXX Which it is.

Diane Rayburn ???? Did you notice how long the lady that wrote the post had been an active supporter and trade unionist? 50 years! So you have a majority of paid up members who happen to support their leader, but despite a majority decision that elects the more left of the party onto the committee for once, it's not right and you shouldn't abide by it? Sorry but that's a weird opinion.

I posted a Facebook comment on our Lab. Party Facebook page.
I've XXX'd out the members names, [left mine in] but I think it pretty much shows the awful gap between the right and the left...

[Tubby Isaacs]

Michael RussellVerified account
‏@Feorlean
@ChrisManners4 @GordinaB @LucyHunterB : alas it is very clear that none of you really want a rational debate about policy choices

That's all of us told, thanks Mr SNP.

Floundered about hopelessly, trying to get it back to "Tory cuts" and "Westminster". Didn't want to talk about Wales.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Precisely. And they forget our local Aldi serves a huge area. People come from all over to shop there. No way is it a snap shot of our immediate area.

Mind you, when a houseful of E.Europeans just over the back of our place hosted a 36 hour, non-stop, through the night and into the next day barbecue with a load of friends last weekend --- just for a moment I sympathised with the brexiters.

I know you don't need telling this, whereas loads of people currently out there planning to vote Leave 'to make Britain Great again' needing it pointing out that your East European neighbours did this because they were a**eholes, not because they were East European.

Indeed. And also because they're fairly young, I'd expect.

When you see stats about numbers of Poles etc in jail, it can sound a lot until you adjust for age. I'd guess the Polish population of the UK are disproportionately 18-35 or so, which is about the range that gets sent to prison most anywhere.

[citizenJA]

Can Jeremy Corbyn make remain’s case for the EU seem ‘sexy’?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... n-campaign" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

making fun of the man, the referendum, the party and regular people trying to sort politics out

[rebeccariots2]

Can Jeremy Corbyn make remain’s case for the EU seem ‘sexy’?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... n-campaign" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

making fun of the man, the referendum, the party and regular people trying to sort politics out

Think it's very silly and short sighted of any politician, commentator or organisation that wants a Remain outcome to be undermining Corbyn and Labour right now - when they supposedly need him to appear credible and able to make a good case for staying in. After all it's not as if they won't turn on him immediately after the result whatever it is ... they could give it a rest for a short time. No one seems to care about doing 360 degree turns and showing themselves to be utter hypocrites anymore - look at Cameron and Sadiq Khan. Brazen doesn't cover it.

[refitman]

Can Jeremy Corbyn make remain’s case for the EU seem ‘sexy’?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... n-campaign" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

making fun of the man, the referendum, the party and regular people trying to sort politics out

Think it's very silly and short sighted of any politician, commentator or organisation that wants a Remain outcome to be undermining Corbyn and Labour right now - when they supposedly need him to appear credible and able to make a good case for staying in. After all it's not as if they won't turn on him immediately after the result whatever it is ... they could give it a rest for a short time. No one seems to care about doing 360 degree turns and showing themselves to be utter hypocrites anymore - look at Cameron and Sadiq Khan. Brazen doesn't cover it.

Daniel Boffey, former Mail writer, who spent a lot of time attacking Miliband. That, along with a typical sub-editor headline, doesn't surprise me.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Can Jeremy Corbyn make remain’s case for the EU seem ‘sexy’?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... n-campaign" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

making fun of the man, the referendum, the party and regular people trying to sort politics out

As I've said before, Alan bloody Johnson is the Chair of Labour In, why the hell isn't media on his case instead of Corbyn's?

The whole media in this country is warped and anyone who can't see it must frankly be thick as two short planks.

I don't think it washes for anyone but the leader to do leading on something like this.

I'd guess Alan Johnson is working hard, but can't cut through the focus on the PM and "his friends, Gove and Boris". Same as Corbyn really. It's very hard to do that.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I've been trying to flesh out Mr Wetherspoon's vision.

It's basically the man in the pub, with added tampons.

http://www.exeterexpressandecho.co.uk/W ... story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm familiar with the nonsense that the laws are set by "people we don't elect", but never heard anyone say "the court" make laws before.

Oh yeah, he thinks Turkey is in the EU or imminent. And he thinks the pound won't fall on Brexit because something about farming.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Somebody ought to get Gove and Johnson to do that old "5 presidents" lark again. Both keen proponents of Latin, they should know that "president" is derived from the verb "praesideo, which means (you may have guessed) "preside over". It doesn't have to be an executive president like Obama or Hollande.

"So Mr Gove/Johnson, are you trying to mislead people or do you understand neither English nor Latin?"

[StephenDolan]

Morning all.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/20 ... -approval/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Royal Free, DeepMind, Streams. Very disconcerting.

Via Peter Jukes. Anyone listened to the Daniel Morgan podcast episode 1 yet? I've got it in the queue with 40 others, some serious catching up required.

[StephenDolan]

Jeremy Corbyn’s male-only retinue will never tell him he has no clothes

http://gu.com/p/4k9ty" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And here's me thinking that her 'funny' SamCam diary pieces were poor. It appears that the Grant Shapps random press release generator (or is it the Ed Miliband summer of guff OP generator?) has been dusted off, tweaked and is being used with gay abandon at the leftie G.

[rebeccariots2]

Jeremy Corbyn’s male-only retinue will never tell him he has no clothes

http://gu.com/p/4k9ty" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And here's me thinking that her 'funny' SamCam diary pieces were poor. It appears that the Grant Shapps random press release generator (or is it the Ed Miliband summer of guff OP generator?) has been dusted off, tweaked and is being used with gay abandon at the leftie G.

When the G insists on subscription - and it will probably have to sooner or later - I'm not going to feel very inclined to do so. Will be torn as will want to keep some writers such as Owen Jones in gainful employment ... but overall I don't feel like supporting it.

[yahyah]

Morning. Hope the warmth and sun has reached places it has so far not reached, and FTNers are feeling the benefit.

Switzerland is voting on whether or not to have a basic income, paid to everyone regardless of whether they work or not.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36454060" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;