Monday 6th.june 2016

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 6:19 am

Good morning, all.

I've been a bit poorly so not posting much. Also sick of the EU bollocks.

The Hay Festival is over, and it has been a bit "meh" this year. No really big speakers this time; and not a lot of business in the town itself. Which is a bit of a shame for the local traders.
For the fashionistas among us - designer linen and expensive boutique-boho out; fifties-style vintage in. Hipster beards and pork-pie hats de rigeur for the men. Also a bit "meh".

Novak Djokovic is one of the greats, IMHO. Fantastic tennis yesterday.

Corbyn being a bit "underwhelming" (allegedly) is not a problem for me. I've had more than enough of pumped-up passionate politicos, thank you very much. Someone who just gets on with the job without any fuss is a refreshing change.

HindleA - I agree with you on the UBI to a degree. Unless any scheme for one comes with supplements for people with disabilities (and other specific support for illness, caring, lone parenthood, etc.) it could be a bad thing for certain vulnerable groups.
However, on balance, I think it could work if it was thought out properly. The difficulty is that many people would see a UBI as a "free" handout (how I hate that expression) and people who work - even though they'd get it too - would resent those who don't, much as they do now. It would need a massive leap in thinking; the Tories have succeeded in demonising claimants all too well.

We have had glorious weather - apologies to those who haven't......

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 8:46 am

From the G's live blog:

The BBC has learned pro-Remain MPs would use their voting power in the House of Commons to protect what they see as the economic benefits of a single market, which gives the UK access to 500 million consumers.

Staying inside the single market would mean Britain would have to keep its borders open to EU workers and continue paying into EU coffers.

This is essentially the problem with the EU referendum. It can tell our MPs a majority of voters want to leave, but it can't tell them what people want next as the referendum doesn't ask that. With no treaty change on the horizon, those voting remain know that what they are voting for will be more of the same, but those voting for leave have no way of getting what they want or even communicating to MPs what that might be. The process could prove bitterly disappointing for some. Boris has certainly said enough positive things about the EU in the past to make staying in the single market, with free movement of people, more than likely even if he manages to displace Cameron.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 9:27 am

Good morfternoon.

I'm repeating Willow904's post from yesterday because, in my opinion, it's such a good one.

Prescott definitely strikes a chord with me with the above. It's that whole underwhelming thing I've struggled with from the start. I don't know if it's lack of experience or lack of good script writers and advisors but although he's made some ok speeches and said the right things, there is a certain lack of intensity and passion to his leadership that continues to leave me pretty uninspired. He's good at getting behind campaigns, such as the mayoral campaign for Bristol, but seems less able to be the campaign that others get behind somehow. Though I do think it's up to Cameron to convince the undecideds - It's his gig after all. Miliband's refusal to hold a referendum continues to be hands and shoulders above Cameron's short termist pandering to the Eurosceptic right in terms of principle and strong leadership. He really should have been PM.

Edited to add -

Willow904 was speaking of Jeremy Corbyn. I didn't make that clear.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 9:29 am

Morning all.

A good Labour on the referendum piece by Benn.

The leave campaign would scrap workers’ rights. It must tell us which ones

http://gu.com/p/4kdfc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 9:56 am

BBC presenters including Huw Edwards and Fiona Bruce are getting vile POO-FILLED packages in the post
Weirdos are sending the revolting envelopes to on-screen talent at newsrooms around the country
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... -post.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I blame Corbyn myself.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 9:59 am

Beth Rigby Retweeted
Aidan Kerr ‏@AidanKerrPol 1h1 hour ago
BREAKING:

@YouGov #Brexit poll shows switch from Don't Knows to Leave in past week:
Remain: 41% (-)
Leave: 45% (+4)
Fieldwork. 1-3 June

Cameron and Osborne should tone it down and retire from the forefront of the Remain campaign for a bit IMO. They are doing more harm than good. Cameron's Sky 'performance' really wasn't helpful.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 10:00 am

RobertSnozers wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

I'm repeating Willow904's post from yesterday because, in my opinion, it's such a good one.

Prescott definitely strikes a chord with me with the above. It's that whole underwhelming thing I've struggled with from the start. I don't know if it's lack of experience or lack of good script writers and advisors but although he's made some ok speeches and said the right things, there is a certain lack of intensity and passion to his leadership that continues to leave me pretty uninspired. He's good at getting behind campaigns, such as the mayoral campaign for Bristol, but seems less able to be the campaign that others get behind somehow. Though I do think it's up to Cameron to convince the undecideds - It's his gig after all. Miliband's refusal to hold a referendum continues to be hands and shoulders above Cameron's short termist pandering to the Eurosceptic right in terms of principle and strong leadership. He really should have been PM.
Edited to add -

Willow904 was speaking of Jeremy Corbyn. I didn't make that clear.
Personally I've had enough of demagogues, but these days it seems you have to bellow and gurn to be considered prime ministerial

I agree with you about "fire in the belly" (shorthand) types. However, I find Jeremy Corbyn overly detached.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 10:02 am

StephenDolan wrote:Morning all.

A good Labour on the referendum piece by Benn.

The leave campaign would scrap workers’ rights. It must tell us which ones

http://gu.com/p/4kdfc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes, good article and touches on the point I made above, that those who are leading Leave are not being honest or explicit about exactly what policies they would support if we did leave.

Corbyn showed good judgement keeping Benn on despite disagreement over Syria as they were always destined to be in alignment on the EU and Benn argues well. He suffers from the same issue Corbyn's perfectly reasonable speeches have also suffered from, though, no one's going to hear about it. The live blog at the G is dominated by the Tories again:

Johnson claims UK face 'triple whammy of woe' if it stays in UK - but Cameron says he's wrong

Tubby made a good point yesterday about "remainers" who have previously called for a referendum to settle things making more of this. Then again, they may have been and the press just haven't picked it up.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 10:04 am

McDonnell is more engaging isn't he?

But then Attlee was famously "detached". I don't know....

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 10:13 am

The hope has to be that "leave" has maxed out too early on immigration and "remain" can hit back strongly in the closing weeks.

But as said, it has to be less of Cameron and Osborne. Credit where its due, Major was good yesterday.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 10:19 am

I think the trouble many of us have is that we know that Ed M would have been a fantastic PM.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 10:22 am

Triple whammy of Woe v A bomb under the economy.

Glad to hear that the old Etonians are keeping up their considered, constructive positive arguments for stay/leave.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 10:33 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I think the trouble many of us have is that we know that Ed M would have been a fantastic PM.

Yes, that is all too true.

And the continued whining about him from Blairite true believers (now pushing the line that he is to blame for Corbyn's election) is incredibly tiresome.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 10:34 am

I'm trying to determine what would IMHO be the best result of the referendum. Finding difficult as I can't tell how the various media outlets are going to provide their verdicts. Surprised there's been less questioning and pressure applied to each of the major frontpeople for either side about having to consider their positions afterwards. Knives and machetes sharpened, bridges burnt to a crisp.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 10:36 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote: But as said, it has to be less of Cameron and Osborne. Credit where its due, Major was good yesterday.

Corbyn's the one with the positive message.
Blue on blue shouting turns people off.
I would have liked it if Major had had a go at Cam for calling the ref in the first place.

At the supermarket yesterday the check-out lady struck up a conversation with me about the EUref, she was a remainer, said she liked to feel we belong, not on our own. In her 60s, not a kid. I thought that was nice.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 11:20 am

TTIP might be a problem re the EU and "Remain". But how likely is it that any of the countries (eg the USA) with whom we're supposedly going to strike wonderful trade deals once we're liberated from an organisation within which we have some clout and influence are going to insist on something similar - especially with regard to the NHS?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 12:04 pm

BBC headline - "Cameron shares a platform with Labour". Not with Harman, with "Labour".

Did she and Khan really not see this is how their appearances would be spun?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 12:10 pm

Kamaljeet Jandu ‏@KamaljeetJandu 18h18 hours ago

Listening to @JeremyCorbyn4PM addressing #GMB16 ....I'm struck by what a decent human being he is. #respect

Time and again you see the above comment.

He's never going to stand on a dais and give us tub thumping rhetoric, He doesn't do insults, name calling, or confrontation.
I guess you need to see/hear him speaking to really 'get' what he's about. He receives standing ovations so there must be something that touches a chord with people.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 12:15 pm

PorFavor wrote:TTIP might be a problem re the EU and "Remain". But how likely is it that any of the countries (eg the USA) with whom we're supposedly going to strike wonderful trade deals once we're liberated from an organisation within which we have some clout and influence are going to insist on something similar - especially with regard to the NHS?

It's been clear ever since I married Mr Ohso, that we are around ten years behind them. So, whatever their systems for SS, Health, trade, war etc., you can be sure we'll get exactly the same a little later down the line.

Another reason why it's better to stay in Europe. They at least act as a brake on the worst American excesses.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 12:24 pm

Corbyn has a fundamental dislike of the cult of personality surrounding twenty-first century political leaders. My friends here disappointed with Corbyn's underwhelming are correct. But you're not likely get what you're asking from Corbyn. It's not just a personality issue, he despises pulpit politics on principle. Will it undermine Labour receiving enough electoral support? As long as Corbyn is able to motivate enough people he speaks with into voting Labour, Corbyn is an effective Labour leader. Will it be enough? I don't know.

Corbyn goes straight out to the people, all the time, the press doesn't report it all that often. Those speeches are good but what happens before and after are better. He reaches people by talking with them - that's how Corbyn won the Labour leadership contest and currently maintains popularity. Corbyn actively encourages other Labour MPs to get out there to rally support. This can look as though his leadership is weak. Superficially, it seems like others are interested in wresting power from him. It's likely not true at all. This is different from what media are used to - a leader not interested in personal popularity. But it's how it's perceived, isn't it? Does it undermine Labour's winning electorally? I don't know.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 12:27 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
PorFavor wrote:TTIP might be a problem re the EU and "Remain". But how likely is it that any of the countries (eg the USA) with whom we're supposedly going to strike wonderful trade deals once we're liberated from an organisation within which we have some clout and influence are going to insist on something similar - especially with regard to the NHS?
It's been clear ever since I married Mr Ohso, that we are around ten years behind them. So, whatever their systems for SS, Health, trade, war etc., you can be sure we'll get exactly the same a little later down the line.

Another reason why it's better to stay in Europe. They at least act as a brake on the worst American excesses.

Yep.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 12:39 pm

Based upon the nine months of Corbyn's Labour leadership, the May elections, his positive presence as Labour leader not often making it into the mainstream media stream, I'm optimistic about Labour's winning.

Corbyn is trusty like Miliband was trusty. Corbyn is personally social off-camera, hangs around longer after speeches more often than Miliband did. I've not done a study or read any on the subject. It's my impression from what I read and see. I intend no criticism of either man.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 12:43 pm

Beautiful day.

Due to cutbacks and our council putting landscaping out to tender, a Dutch company now cuts our verges and generally cleans up...

We haven't had the verge that runs alongside my garden and a four car parking bay, cut for nearly six weeks. It's like a meadow. Nice but when dog owners let their dogs poo not easy to find or pick up, so they leave it. There are no footpaths where I am, it's either grass verge or road. We have to go on the grass to get at the car boot. You can imagine what happens.
So today in desperation I got my little mower out and started trying to cut it...And blew the mower up!

Sheesh! I am praying my son has a spare tucked away in his garage.

He hasn't !!!! Bum.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 12:46 pm

Blame Corbyn.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 12:59 pm

Cabinet cancelled this week, No 10 says
Rowena Mason

Downing Street has confirmed there will be no cabinet tomorrow and cannot say whether there will be one next week. No reason has been given, but it may be a sign that relations have degenerated too badly for senior Conservatives to sit round the same table. Or Cameron may just feel that he and other cabinet ministers cannot save the time now the polls appear to be so tight in the EU referendum.
(Politics Live, Guardian)

David Cameron has really ballsed this unnecessary referendum thing up, hasn't he?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 1:18 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
Johnson says the UK gave up its veto over further eurozone integration as part of David Cameron’s EU renegotiation.
(From today's liveblog)

Is this true? If so it's a pretty massive compromise in return for not much.

I wonder how Cameron's magic beans are getting on?

I might be wrong, couldn't the Eurozone do "Enhanced Cooperation" anyway? Wasn't that the point about his veto before, where the stability pact went ahead anyway?

So he hasn't given anything up, if so.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 1:21 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
Johnson says the UK gave up its veto over further eurozone integration as part of David Cameron’s EU renegotiation.
(From today's liveblog)

Is this true? If so it's a pretty massive compromise in return for not much.
I wonder how Cameron's magic beans are getting on?

Boris Johnson's five EU questions: where does remain camp stand?

"4) Why did you give up the UK veto on further moves towards a fiscal and political union?

This is another issue that has failed to get much traction outside Eurosceptic circles. The Vote Leave campaign claims that Cameron’s
deal with the EU has given up a crucial veto on integration among the eurozone countries, with the wording saying the UK “shall not
impede the implementation of legal acts directly linked to the functioning of the euro area”.

Chris Grayling, the leader of the Commons, claims this means the UK has “seemingly given up” its right to veto new treaties that
will transfer more money and more power to European institutions.

However, the remain camp strongly rejects that this is even an issue, saying: “The UK maintains its right to veto a new treaty –
the claim that we have given up a veto is completely untrue.”

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... camp-stand

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 1:23 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:BBC headline - "Cameron shares a platform with Labour". Not with Harman, with "Labour".

Did she and Khan really not see this is how their appearances would be spun?

It's mainly being spun as Cameron needing Labour help. And getting it from a feminist and a Muslim. His party frothers really hate those two.

I'll take that.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 1:27 pm

The rare times when I agree with Leave is when they criticise Dodgy's "deal" as being worthless. Given its author, it almost certainly is!

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 1:31 pm

As for undermining Corbyn, it's the IDS problem. Serial rebels can't command loyalty easily, even from non headbangers.

I think Corbyn has understood that fairly well. He's not tried to whip anything too leftist through. It's been cautious and only really Blair it ultras have gone over the side.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 1:32 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Beautiful day.

Due to cutbacks and our council putting landscaping out to tender, a Dutch company now cuts our verges and generally cleans up...

We haven't had the verge that runs alongside my garden and a four car parking bay, cut for nearly six weeks. It's like a meadow. Nice but when dog owners let their dogs poo not easy to find or pick up, so they leave it. There are no footpaths where I am, it's either grass verge or road. We have to go on the grass to get at the car boot. You can imagine what happens.
So today in desperation I got my little mower out and started trying to cut it...And blew the mower up!

Sheesh! I am praying my son has a spare tucked away in his garage.

He hasn't !!!! Bum.
My lawnmower stopped working yesterday. Two friends report the same...

Lawn mowers have been the bane of my life, and the dearer the electric ones are the shorter their life seems to be.

The one I burned out cost £50. It lasted longer than two that cost over a hundred pounds each.

I've just popped into Homebase, and brought a flimsy little thing for £34. We won't need one when we move so no point in wasting money.

Memo to self. Must not do the council's work for them!

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 1:33 pm

As for undermining Corbyn, it's the IDS problem. Serial rebels can't command loyalty easily, even from non headbangers.

I think Corbyn has understood that fairly well. He's not tried to whip anything too leftist through. It's been cautious and only really Blair it ultras have gone over the side.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 1:34 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Beautiful day.

Due to cutbacks and our council putting landscaping out to tender, a Dutch company now cuts our verges and generally cleans up...

We haven't had the verge that runs alongside my garden and a four car parking bay, cut for nearly six weeks. It's like a meadow. Nice but when dog owners let their dogs poo not easy to find or pick up, so they leave it. There are no footpaths where I am, it's either grass verge or road. We have to go on the grass to get at the car boot. You can imagine what happens.
So today in desperation I got my little mower out and started trying to cut it...And blew the mower up!

Sheesh! I am praying my son has a spare tucked away in his garage.

He hasn't !!!! Bum.
My lawnmower stopped working yesterday. Two friends report the same...

Lawn mowers have been the bane of my life, and the dearer the electric ones are the shorter their life seems to be.

The one I burned out cost £50. It lasted longer than two that cost over a hundred pounds each.

I've just popped into Homebase, and brought a flimsy little thing for £34. We won't need one when we move so no point in wasting money.

Memo to self. Must not do the council's work for them!

That's not very Big Society of you

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 1:37 pm

Have you tried petrol ? Our Honda is brilliant.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 1:44 pm

Chris ShipVerified account
‏@chrisshipitv

Asked @jeremycorbyn's office why @HarrietHarman was on cross party platform but the Leader wasn't? In turn they question why she *was* there

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 1:45 pm

yahyah wrote:Have you tried petrol ? Our Honda is brilliant.

I only have a front garden which isn't that big...

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 1:48 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Chris ShipVerified account
‏@chrisshipitv

Asked @jeremycorbyn's office why @HarrietHarman was on cross party platform but the Leader wasn't? In turn they question why she *was* there

And quite rightly.

There seems an attitude with some journalists "of course Labour should sacrifice itself for the 'greater good' over this, just as in Scotland".

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 1:59 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
Memo to self. Must not do the council's work for them!

Certainly not if you don't have the right kit.
Out here in the sticks many people mow the verges outside their house, the council contractor, or the estate, only comes a couple of times a year. Ours are just a narrow bank but we mow the stretch either side of the village sign, we're the nearest. That's our contribution to the community.
I say we but of course mr gilsey is in charge of mowing, or indeed anything which involves the use of machinery.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 2:02 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote: My lawnmower stopped working yesterday. Two friends report the same...

Lawn mowers have been the bane of my life, and the dearer the electric ones are the shorter their life seems to be.

The one I burned out cost £50. It lasted longer than two that cost over a hundred pounds each.

I've just popped into Homebase, and brought a flimsy little thing for £34. We won't need one when we move so no point in wasting money.

Memo to self. Must not do the council's work for them!
That's not very Big Society of you

We live in a side turning in a block of five maisonettes. I am the only one who sweeps the path outside. The postman said he'd never seen anyone doing it before, but where I was brought up, the women always swept the path outside their houses.
I also sweep the gutter in the parking bay. The council machine only comes twice a year, but doesn't do our turning, and there are always cars parked in the bay so if there's a gap when I'm doing the garden I do a quick tidy. Term time the youngsters drop all sorts on their way home from school. The noisy neighbours from around the back are also litterers. Drove off yesterday and left a red bull can and a fag packet [UK duty paid] on the grass.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 2:06 pm

citizenJA wrote:Based upon the nine months of Corbyn's Labour leadership, the May elections, his positive presence as Labour leader not often making it into the mainstream media stream, I'm optimistic about Labour's winning.

Corbyn is trusty like Miliband was trusty. Corbyn is personally social off-camera, hangs around longer after speeches more often than Miliband did. I've not done a study or read any on the subject. It's my impression from what I read and see. I intend no criticism of either man.

Ed had young children to go home to.

I think Corbyn comes over well when you actually see him being interviewed, or clips of his speeches. Serious, non-personal stuff isn't 'news' so they don't report it, or indeed ask him for an interview. I bet Cam & Osborne are turning down interviews every day & I wouldn't be surprised if Corbyn accepts most of them. We hardly see him and I don't think it's his fault.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 2:08 pm

I have flowers and shrubs out, but haven't seen a single bee yet

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 2:13 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Chris ShipVerified account
‏@chrisshipitv

Asked @jeremycorbyn's office why @HarrietHarman was on cross party platform but the Leader wasn't? In turn they question why she *was* there
And quite rightly.

There seems an attitude with some journalists "of course Labour should sacrifice itself for the 'greater good' over this, just as in Scotland".

That's a daft answer by Corbyn's office really. It's right for the leadership to remain distinct but you don't have to take shots at Harman and Sadiq. Respect their personal decision but best for party as a whole to concentrate on its own voters.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 2:13 pm

gilsey wrote:
citizenJA wrote:Based upon the nine months of Corbyn's Labour leadership, the May elections, his positive presence as Labour leader not often making it into the mainstream media stream, I'm optimistic about Labour's winning.

Corbyn is trusty like Miliband was trusty. Corbyn is personally social off-camera, hangs around longer after speeches more often than Miliband did. I've not done a study or read any on the subject. It's my impression from what I read and see. I intend no criticism of either man.
Ed had young children to go home to.

I think Corbyn comes over well when you actually see him being interviewed, or clips of his speeches. Serious, non-personal stuff isn't 'news' so they don't report it, or indeed ask him for an interview. I bet Cam & Osborne are turning down interviews every day & I wouldn't be surprised if Corbyn accepts most of them. We hardly see him and I don't think it's his fault.

When you see a photo of Corbyn after a speech and he's chatting to people he never seems to be part of an entourage. He's not surrounded by 'suits'. If he does have minders they keep a very low profile.
And he's usually dressed like them. You'd have a hard job to pick him out of a crowd, which has to make him more approachable...

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 2:15 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:The rare times when I agree with Leave is when they criticise Dodgy's "deal" as being worthless. Given its author, it almost certainly is!

I think he's given up saying "in a reformed EU".

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 2:22 pm

Anyway, when the "proper left" supported leaving the EU, they happily joshed about with Bill Cash etc. They can't blame Sadiq or Harman for doing the same.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 2:25 pm

Q: Would there be a border between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic?

No, says Farage. He says the Republic was sensible enough not to join the Schengen area.

Q: So how would you stop EU citizens coming to Ireland, and then travelling to Northern Ireland?

Farage says that is something you would have to keep an eye on.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 2:47 pm

If Corbyn and pals want to take potshots at anyone, the useful idiots in Brexit Labour would be a better target. But that would mean attacking some old Campaign Group pals, so it doesn't happen.

What they've done, with the cross party gloss they've given to the loony right is worse than Harman and Sadiq. There's a sectarian streak to the leader's team. Don't like it.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 2:50 pm

Pro-EU MPs could stage guerrilla campaign to reverse Brexit decision

MPs could initiate ‘reverse Maastricht’ to minimise number of EU laws the UK pulls out of, or push for a second referendum
A British Union flag and an EU flag are seen flying outside the EU commission headquarters in Brussels (Guardian)

A second referendum? Well, why not if the first one was so successful . . .

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... t-decision

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 2:53 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:If Corbyn and pals want to take potshots at anyone, the useful idiots in Brexit Labour would be a better target. But that would mean attacking some old Campaign Group pals, so it doesn't happen.

What they've done, with the cross party gloss they've given to the loony right is worse than Harman and Sadiq. There's a sectarian streak to the leader's team. Don't like it.

Making such comments back isn't a great look. Harman should be able to see how she's being played though. I agree with a lot of what's she's been saying, but how much coverage will that be given? How much of that will get through to the general population? Compared with the quick headline and pictures of them together.

Hoey, Stuart and Field. What a trio.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 3:15 pm

gilsey wrote:
citizenJA wrote:Based upon the nine months of Corbyn's Labour leadership, the May elections, his positive presence as Labour leader not often making it into the mainstream media stream, I'm optimistic about Labour's winning.

Corbyn is trusty like Miliband was trusty. Corbyn is personally social off-camera, hangs around longer after speeches more often than Miliband did. I've not done a study or read any on the subject. It's my impression from what I read and see. I intend no criticism of either man.
Ed had young children to go home to.

I think Corbyn comes over well when you actually see him being interviewed, or clips of his speeches. Serious, non-personal stuff isn't 'news' so they don't report it, or indeed ask him for an interview. I bet Cam & Osborne are turning down interviews every day & I wouldn't be surprised if Corbyn accepts most of them. We hardly see him and I don't think it's his fault.

Exactly.