Monday 6th.june 2016

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 3:21 pm

PorFavor wrote:
Pro-EU MPs could stage guerrilla campaign to reverse Brexit decision

MPs could initiate ‘reverse Maastricht’ to minimise number of EU laws the UK pulls out of, or push for a second referendum
A British Union flag and an EU flag are seen flying outside the EU commission headquarters in Brussels (Guardian)
A second referendum? Well, why not if the first one was so successful . . .

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... t-decision

I think that's yet another declaration / threat that could backfire on Remain - it sounds like real disrespect for the outcome of the vote and the voters. Could likely rile people.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 3:23 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
Pro-EU MPs could stage guerrilla campaign to reverse Brexit decision

MPs could initiate ‘reverse Maastricht’ to minimise number of EU laws the UK pulls out of, or push for a second referendum
A British Union flag and an EU flag are seen flying outside the EU commission headquarters in Brussels (Guardian)
A second referendum? Well, why not if the first one was so successful . . .

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... t-decision
I think that's yet another declaration / threat that could backfire on Remain - it sounds like real disrespect for the outcome of the vote and the voters. Could likely rile people.

Yes - it's almost bound to.

Edited to add -

Could well have the effect of boosting the turnout of "Outers" and "Doubters" (who may become "Outers" for the day) to try to ensure a very decisive result.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 3:27 pm

There are the lefty Brexiters too, Skinner, Campbell, Hopkins. They need a bit of a telling off. Goes down well with the media too.

Don't think Cameron us powerful enough to play anyone really. He doesn't even know when the Cabinet is meeting.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 3:31 pm

PorFavor wrote:
Pro-EU MPs could stage guerrilla campaign to reverse Brexit decision

MPs could initiate ‘reverse Maastricht’ to minimise number of EU laws the UK pulls out of, or push for a second referendum
A British Union flag and an EU flag are seen flying outside the EU commission headquarters in Brussels (Guardian)
A second referendum? Well, why not if the first one was so successful . . .

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... t-decision

It's also a get out for PM Johnson or Gove when the EU offers them the EEA or Switzerland. Not us, guv. It was Ken Clarke. He's a traitor.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 3:47 pm

I wonder what Farage has to say about the appalling activities of the British paedophile who has been sentenced today ?
Or is he too busy trying to paint migrants as a threat to British women & children to care about foreign children ?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 3:51 pm

PorFavor wrote:
Pro-EU MPs could stage guerrilla campaign to reverse Brexit decision

MPs could initiate ‘reverse Maastricht’ to minimise number of EU laws the UK pulls out of, or push for a second referendum
A British Union flag and an EU flag are seen flying outside the EU commission headquarters in Brussels (Guardian)
A second referendum? Well, why not if the first one was so successful . . .

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... t-decision

There's a bad moon on the rise.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 3:57 pm

I've just read the article. A bad leader, Dave Cameron. What a mess he's made. Absolutely wretched. Irresponsible, unthinking, never had to think seriously in his life. I'm sorry for people and country. A mess.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 4:11 pm

Talk of Trump and Gingrich.

Could any Democrat not defeat that pairing?! Although...

fivethirtyeight had a piece on which presidential candidates had th the lowest approval ratings since the early 70s.

Bottom,Trump.
Second bottom, HRC (yes I realise she's not the official Democrat candidate yet). Scary what a combination of freak events could culminate in.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 4:15 pm

StephenDolan wrote:Talk of Trump and Gingrich.

Could any Democrat not defeat that pairing?! Although...

fivethirtyeight had a piece on which presidential candidates had th the lowest approval ratings since the early 70s.

Bottom,Trump.
Second bottom, HRC (yes I realise she's not the official Democrat candidate yet). Scary what a combination of freak events could culminate in.

I despair.

ScarletGas · Post by **ScarletGas** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 4:19 pm

citizenJA wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
Pro-EU MPs could stage guerrilla campaign to reverse Brexit decision

MPs could initiate ‘reverse Maastricht’ to minimise number of EU laws the UK pulls out of, or push for a second referendum
A British Union flag and an EU flag are seen flying outside the EU commission headquarters in Brussels (Guardian)
A second referendum? Well, why not if the first one was so successful . . .

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... t-decision
There's a bad moon on the rise.

Someone on CIF quoted Hotel California.

You can check out anytime you like.....but you can never leave.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 4:29 pm

I see George Eaton has finally caught up with me and is blogging about the possibility of a UK Remain vote where England has voted Leave

Sadly, I think this is highly likely at present.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 4:31 pm

The other scenario where UK votes Leave but Scotland has voted Remain is of course another hideous possible outcome.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 4:36 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:The other scenario where UK votes Leave but Scotland has voted Remain is of course another hideous possible outcome.

London and Scotland remain, the rest of England leave. May you live in interesting times...

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 4:36 pm

Have completed my postal vote, forgot to do it on Friday.
It is signed, sealed and waiting to post tomorrow when I have to go to town for my GP appointment.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 4:38 pm

StephenDolan wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:The other scenario where UK votes Leave but Scotland has voted Remain is of course another hideous possible outcome.
London and Scotland remain, the rest of England leave. May you live in interesting times...

<ahem> Wales is not part of England

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 4:48 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:The other scenario where UK votes Leave but Scotland has voted Remain is of course another hideous possible outcome.

My sister sees it even more starkly than that - London and some of the other more progressive and affluent cities such as Bristol, Oxford, Cambridge etc voting Remain - rest of country voting Out.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 4:48 pm

Michael ‏@TheRightArticle 43m43 minutes ago

Recall of Monsanto's Roundup likely as EU refuses limited use of glyphosate -

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... glyphosate

One of the best reasons yet for staying in the EU.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 4:49 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:The other scenario where UK votes Leave but Scotland has voted Remain is of course another hideous possible outcome.
My sister sees it even more starkly than that - London and some of the other more progressive and affluent cities such as Bristol, Oxford, Cambridge etc voting Remain - rest of country voting Out.

There is going to be so much trouble we won't know which way to turn.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 4:54 pm

'Online advertising raises more Tory electoral fraud claims'.

http://voxpoliticalonline.com/2016/06/0 ... ud-claims/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 4:58 pm

yahyah wrote:'Online advertising raises more Tory electoral fraud claims'.

http://voxpoliticalonline.com/2016/06/0 ... ud-claims/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cat Smith!!

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 5:01 pm

Tory government would like nothing better than to keep the population in a permanent state of emergency.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 5:02 pm

The trouble is that Cameron has got so much form now - no one believes him. He can't really rubbish the 2.4bn EU bill that Leave are talking about because of his stupid stunt with the last EU bill that there was 'no way' we're paying - shouting to the press how outrageous it was before caving in and quietly paying it. His former lies, U turns and dissimulation make him the opposite of credible and trustworthy.

Not saying anyone else on the Leave side is particularly wonderful mind.

The only person who seems to have kept their cool and not overplayed the passionate promises and pledges - is - strangely - Corbyn.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 5:04 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:The other scenario where UK votes Leave but Scotland has voted Remain is of course another hideous possible outcome.
My sister sees it even more starkly than that - London and some of the other more progressive and affluent cities such as Bristol, Oxford, Cambridge etc voting Remain - rest of country voting Out.

If that happens then Brexit will win easily - maybe in the high 50s. That remains highly unlikely IMO.

Let's not forget that "leavers" tend to be more vocal if not shouty - I am totally unconvinced (despite some claims) that there are lots of "shy Brexiters" out there.

(the opposite is considerably more likely to be true)

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 5:06 pm

BTL on AS

If we BREXIT and it is down to that aging, useless Trot, and there is an ensuing bonfire of workers' rights plus recession that sees hundreds of thousands of jobs lost and working families hit, well, then I hope Jeremy and his conscience spend many happy evenings together, because he will be as much to blame as people like Gove and Boris. Exactly how useless does he have to be for the scales to fall from the eyes of his supporters?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 5:07 pm

Is that our old pal Hugo ?

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 5:07 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:The other scenario where UK votes Leave but Scotland has voted Remain is of course another hideous possible outcome.
My sister sees it even more starkly than that - London and some of the other more progressive and affluent cities such as Bristol, Oxford, Cambridge etc voting Remain - rest of country voting Out.
If that happens then Brexit will win easily - maybe in the high 50s. That remains highly unlikely IMO.

Let's not forget that "leavers" tend to be more vocal if not shouty - I am totally unconvinced (despite some claims) that there are lots of "shy Brexiters" out there.

(the opposite is considerably more likely to be true)

'Shy Remains' has a certain ring about it.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 5:09 pm

yahyah wrote:Is that our old pal Hugo ?

Cooling Tower1

Don't think it's Hugo - account has been opened a few years now - virtually every post is anti-Corbyn.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 5:10 pm

Was just looking at the Scottish referendum polls.
There were some polls giving Yes a lead several weeks before the ballot. Yet on the day No won by nearly 11 points.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 5:11 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I see George Eaton has finally caught up with me and is blogging about the possibility of a UK Remain vote where England has voted Leave

Sadly, I think this is highly likely at present.

Don't forget how much bigger England is than the rUK (in population terms) This could only realistically happen if England was as near split down the middle as makes no difference. Even "only" 52% for Brexit there might be (just) enough.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 5:31 pm

Union activists threaten Labour MPs with reduced funding over Corbyn disloyalty

Read more:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/pa/art ... z4AokgLU8J

With the proviso it is the Mail....

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 6:37 pm

It is not essential to provide your national insurance (NI) number when registering to vote. If you don’t know your NI number – which can usually be found on payslips or official letters about benefits, tax or pensions – you can just say soby giving a simple explanation. It is then up to your local council to verify your identity.

Although online registration closes for the majority of voters on 7 June, local electoral registration offices have longer to verify your identity. Whatever you do make sure you register to vote. You can think about who to vote for later.

“Under the new online registration system it’s just one of the ways you can have your identity verified,” says Oliver Sidorczuk, director of Bite the Ballot. “If you fill in the application, without your national insurance number, it’s your local council’s duty to verify you.”

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... er-to-vote

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 6:59 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
It is not essential to provide your national insurance (NI) number when registering to vote. If you don’t know your NI number – which can usually be found on payslips or official letters about benefits, tax or pensions – you can just say soby giving a simple explanation. It is then up to your local council to verify your identity.

Although online registration closes for the majority of voters on 7 June, local electoral registration offices have longer to verify your identity. Whatever you do make sure you register to vote. You can think about who to vote for later.

“Under the new online registration system it’s just one of the ways you can have your identity verified,” says Oliver Sidorczuk, director of Bite the Ballot. “If you fill in the application, without your national insurance number, it’s your local council’s duty to verify you.”

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... er-to-vote

They kept that one quiet....

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 7:08 pm

StephenDolan wrote:Q: Would there be a border between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic?

No, says Farage. He says the Republic was sensible enough not to join the Schengen area.

Q: So how would you stop EU citizens coming to Ireland, and then travelling to Northern Ireland?

Farage says that is something you would have to keep an eye on.

Man's a dick. My sister used to live in the French Alps but worked in Switzerland. She had to go through passport control both ways every day.
As Bertie Ahern pointed out over the weekend, there are about 200 roads across the border. How's Farage going to keep an eye on all of them?

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 7:10 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:If Corbyn and pals want to take potshots at anyone, the useful idiots in Brexit Labour would be a better target. But that would mean attacking some old Campaign Group pals, so it doesn't happen.

What they've done, with the cross party gloss they've given to the loony right is worse than Harman and Sadiq. There's a sectarian streak to the leader's team. Don't like it.

Why is Corbyn expected to come out & save Cameron's arse? According to all the polls, Labour voters are the demographic most likely to vote Remain.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 7:16 pm

danesclose wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:If Corbyn and pals want to take potshots at anyone, the useful idiots in Brexit Labour would be a better target. But that would mean attacking some old Campaign Group pals, so it doesn't happen.

What they've done, with the cross party gloss they've given to the loony right is worse than Harman and Sadiq. There's a sectarian streak to the leader's team. Don't like it.
Why is Corbyn expected to come out & save Cameron's arse? According to all the polls, Labour voters are the demographic most likely to vote Remain.

It's really teeing me off...It's bloody Tories most likely to vote Brexit. It's them he has to convince. Not us...

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 7:33 pm

yahyah wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:The other scenario where UK votes Leave but Scotland has voted Remain is of course another hideous possible outcome.
London and Scotland remain, the rest of England leave. May you live in interesting times...

<ahem> Wales is not part of England

Ditto Northern Ireland

55DegreesNorth · Post by **55DegreesNorth** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 7:35 pm

Evening folks,
A bit baffled by the big yellow thing in that blue stuff up there. No fleeces either.
Anyway, here's a possible EU vote scenario. Voting happens, count takes ages because of the need to verify NI numbers etc, during which time it becomes clear backstage that Brexit is winning.
Cue a sudden decision to retake the General Election due to the large scale irregularities (which by then will be blamed on everybody), but with the referendum promise omitted in the name of economic security. Bingo, it never happened.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 7:37 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
danesclose wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:If Corbyn and pals want to take potshots at anyone, the useful idiots in Brexit Labour would be a better target. But that would mean attacking some old Campaign Group pals, so it doesn't happen.

What they've done, with the cross party gloss they've given to the loony right is worse than Harman and Sadiq. There's a sectarian streak to the leader's team. Don't like it.
Why is Corbyn expected to come out & save Cameron's arse? According to all the polls, Labour voters are the demographic most likely to vote Remain.
It's really teeing me off...It's bloody Tories most likely to vote Brexit. It's them he has to convince. Not us...

Not Corbyn, Ohso, its Cameron who needs to convince.
Corbyn's done his job

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 7:43 pm

I see the Remain stuff today was genuinely cross party- emphasis on not just economy but liberal stuff like workers rights and environmental protection.

Cameron is being forced away from his party.

55DegreesNorth · Post by **55DegreesNorth** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 7:44 pm

This YouGov map of Euroscepticism is a bit old (Feb), but it's still interesting.
https://yougov.co.uk/yougov-8545/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

55DegreesNorth · Post by **55DegreesNorth** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 7:44 pm

Deleted double post.

Post by **refitman** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 7:45 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Anyway, when the "proper left" supported leaving the EU, they happily joshed about with Bill Cash etc. They can't blame Sadiq or Harman for doing the same.

Bear in mind that:

(a) It's an incomplete, nay virtually non-existent quote
(b) Chris Ship is hardly a friend of Labour

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 7:51 pm

Steve Bell's latest cartoon & ...If strip are very apposite (need to scroll down for the latest ...If)

http://www.belltoons.co.uk/hotoffpress" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 7:59 pm

danesclose wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:If Corbyn and pals want to take potshots at anyone, the useful idiots in Brexit Labour would be a better target. But that would mean attacking some old Campaign Group pals, so it doesn't happen.

What they've done, with the cross party gloss they've given to the loony right is worse than Harman and Sadiq. There's a sectarian streak to the leader's team. Don't like it.
Why is Corbyn expected to come out & save Cameron's arse? According to all the polls, Labour voters are the demographic most likely to vote Remain.

Because we need all the votes we can get. If Cameron can't get his votes out, the Leader of the Opposition's needs to get even more of his.

I agree with you that Labour voters look like they'll be OK. There will be data on that. It's going to be very hard for anybody to make out it was Corbyn's fault, not Cameron's.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 8:12 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
danesclose wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:If Corbyn and pals want to take potshots at anyone, the useful idiots in Brexit Labour would be a better target. But that would mean attacking some old Campaign Group pals, so it doesn't happen.

What they've done, with the cross party gloss they've given to the loony right is worse than Harman and Sadiq. There's a sectarian streak to the leader's team. Don't like it.
Why is Corbyn expected to come out & save Cameron's arse? According to all the polls, Labour voters are the demographic most likely to vote Remain.
Because we need all the votes we can get. If Cameron can't get his votes out, the Leader of the Opposition's needs to get even more of his.

I agree with you that Labour voters look like they'll be OK. There will be data on that. It's going to be very hard for anybody to make out it was Corbyn's fault, not Cameron's.

I agree that we need to get out every vote, not least because the Tory Remain campaign on the whole has been completely shambolic.
However, regarding Corbyn, the Bitterite campaign to make him partially to blame has already started

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 8:39 pm

55DegreesNorth wrote:Evening folks,
A bit baffled by the big yellow thing in that blue stuff up there. No fleeces either.
Anyway, here's a possible EU vote scenario. Voting happens, count takes ages because of the need to verify NI numbers etc, during which time it becomes clear backstage that Brexit is winning.
Cue a sudden decision to retake the General Election due to the large scale irregularities (which by then will be blamed on everybody), but with the referendum promise omitted in the name of economic security. Bingo, it never happened.

One thing we have learned over the last six years...No matter how outlandish, impossible or ill thought out, the Tories are stupid enough to do it.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 8:45 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
danesclose wrote: Why is Corbyn expected to come out & save Cameron's arse? According to all the polls, Labour voters are the demographic most likely to vote Remain.
Because we need all the votes we can get. If Cameron can't get his votes out, the Leader of the Opposition's needs to get even more of his.

I agree with you that Labour voters look like they'll be OK. There will be data on that. It's going to be very hard for anybody to make out it was Corbyn's fault, not Cameron's.
'Who's this "we", paleface'?

If the result is 'leave' we'll need an intact Labour party more than ever. There may not always be an EU but there will always need to be a party that stands up for the majority against the exploitation of a minority.

Data will mean nothing. If there is a vote to leave, there will be powerful people who want to make it Corbyn's fault, just as there were powerful people who wanted to make the recession Gordon's fault, and powerful people who wanted to make Labour's 2015 loss the fault of the left. They managed to make those stick, and they'll make the referendum loss stick to Corbyn. And suddenly Hilary Benn is looking like the next leader again. How convenient.

It's really difficult isn't it Robert? I understand Tubby's desperation to ensure Remain wins, but the history of Cameron shows us just how he'll stomp on his allies once he doesn't need them any more. What is needed is some kind of "I agree with Jeremy" moment from the Remain Tories, Kuenssberg and the rest of the establishment. If they need Corbyn, let them move towards his position, which in my view is both principled and pragmatic (and articulated well by McDonnell too). If he holds his nerve this could happen.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 9:07 pm

danesclose wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
danesclose wrote: Why is Corbyn expected to come out & save Cameron's arse? According to all the polls, Labour voters are the demographic most likely to vote Remain.
It's really teeing me off...It's bloody Tories most likely to vote Brexit. It's them he has to convince. Not us...
Not Corbyn, Ohso, its Cameron who needs to convince.
Corbyn's done his job

Didn't make myself clear. I meant Cameron.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 9:13 pm

Tories use, chew, and spit out.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 9:16 pm

Cameron is a busted flush. Don't worry about him.