Thursday 9th June 2016

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 6:44 am

EU referendum: JCB chairman tells staff of Brexit support - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36485985" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A bit awkward the next time Cameron rolls up there for a photo op.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 8:08 am

Aaron Banks is complaining that Parliament shouldn't be changing the vote registration deadline.
A Kipper who shouts about democracy when it suits his Brexit argument, but doesn't want elected MPs to vote on something he disagrees with.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 8:10 am

StephenDolan wrote:EU referendum: JCB chairman tells staff of Brexit support - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36485985" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A bit awkward the next time Cameron rolls up there for a photo op.

I'm so glad I've never worked somewhere where the workers were forced to endure and be part of a public relations exercise by the Tories (or any other party for that matter).

I was horrified to find myself expected to stand and listen attentively to and be photographed with Elin Jones Plaid AM when my Welsh language class was brought out into the grounds of Cardigan castle with no prior warning or permission asked - presumably to show how wonderful she was / is. I left and didn't go back.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 8:27 am

Morning all, and thanks for HindleA for the link to Osborne's grilling from Andrew Neil last night.
BBC leading on the fact that Sarah Wollaston has chaneged from "Leave" to "Remain" over the Leave campaign's "untrue" assertion that leaving the EU would free up £350 million a week for the NHS.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-36485464" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 8:27 am

How many of us and others are voting in the Referendum for what we believe in despite the campaign. I know I am.

Yet Sarah Wollaston has completely changed her mind about the issue because the Leave campaign are lying?

She appears to me to be a complete muppet.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 8:52 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:How many of us and others are voting in the Referendum for what we believe in despite the campaign. I know I am.

Yet Sarah Wollaston has completely changed her mind about the issue because the Leave campaign are lying?

She appears to me to be a complete muppet.

Quite. As if the Remain team aren't also misleading and duplicitous .... Osborne and the empty pensioner's purse being just one example.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 8:59 am

Sarah Wollaston MP ✔ @sarahwollaston
Of course I understand that politicians are not allowed to change their minds but real people do
11:42 PM - 8 Jun 2016

Both sides of the referendum debate are counting on people changing their minds in their favour or else why bother making the arguments. Rather than a "coup" for the remain side, I can't help feeling Wollaston's "defection" is more a reflection that neither option is ideal and that a referendum is a very blunt and clumsy way of establishing a democratic mandate. There are a lot of reasons for wanting to leave the EU, but unfortunately those with other reasons than those highlighted by Farage, Gove and Johnson are in danger of having their vote to leave highjacked as a mandate for a narrow set of policies, such as anti-immigration, that they may not support. Labour's high profile, very separate, "in" campaign means this is less the case for those voting for remain.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 9:06 am

Willow904 wrote:
Sarah Wollaston MP ✔ @sarahwollaston
Of course I understand that politicians are not allowed to change their minds but real people do
11:42 PM - 8 Jun 2016
Both sides of the referendum debate are counting on people changing their minds in their favour or else why bother making the arguments. Rather than a "coup" for the remain side, I can't help feeling Wollaston's "defection" is more a reflection that neither option is ideal and that a referendum is a very blunt and clumsy way of establishing a democratic mandate. There are a lot of reasons for wanting to leave the EU, but unfortunately those with other reasons than those highlighted by Farage, Gove and Johnson are in danger of having their vote to leave highjacked as a mandate for a narrow set of policies, such as anti-immigration, that they may not support. Labour's high profile, very separate, "in" campaign means this is less the case for those voting for remain.

We had an interesting discussion with our new young lodger yesterday evening about the referendum. We represented the three states of Remain (young lodger), Out (Mr Riots) and Undecided (myself). Our lodger is also Scottish and experienced their Indy ref ... so has comparisons to make with how his mates and colleagues engaged with that. He sees this as far less left / right, party political than the Indy ref. He was telling us that he knows many people who are 'lefty' who are going to vote Out.

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 9:10 am

I wish Wollaston would also change her mind about being a member of the Tory party. She must have realised by now the damage her party has done and continue to do to the NHS. Her own daughter (a junior doc) fled to Australia.

Major's comment about hamsters and hungry pythons has no doubt also been on her mind.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 9:16 am

nickyinnorfolk wrote:I wish Wollaston would also change her mind about being a member of the Tory party. She must have realised by now the damage her party has done and continue to do to the NHS. Her own daughter (a junior doc) fled to Australia.

Major's comment about hamsters and hungry pythons has no doubt also been on her mind.

Yes, I agree. I've kept thinking how non credible her reasoning re the NHS and the EU money is given the absolute trashing of the NHS that the Tories have brought about ... she voted for Lansley's bill no?

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 9:27 am

Commission probes charity football match punch-up
Police called and one person hospitalized after brawl during Schuman Trophy final.
http://www.politico.eu/article/commissi ... card-olaf/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

... The Schuman Trophy has been a fixture on the Commission’s calendar for 20 years, with teams from each department playing each other and raising money for children’s charities.

But this year’s event — held on May 21 and sponsored by the likes of Volvo and Belgian financial services firm Easyvest — ended in chaos when a player from the Commission’s interpretation department and one from the administration department came to blows. The former ended up in hospital being treated for concussion.

“We are aware of the incident involving two colleagues which took place during the final game of the Schuman Trophy,” said Commission spokesperson Alexander Winterstein. “Such behavior is totally unacceptable, no matter whether in or outside the work environment. An internal investigation is ongoing.”

The two teams had battled to the final, which was described by a witness from another team as very combative, with players “shoving and using French curses likes putain” (whore). The fight started after a player was shown a red card for aggressive behavior.

“I saw that there was a problem with the players, ” said Marco Pinzarrone, captain of the research and innovation department’s team. “They were pushing each other and after a few minutes it became more and more until one person was on the floor. Immediately they stopped when they saw he was injured.”...

Tensions running high at the EU Commission!

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 10:04 am

StephenDolan wrote:EU referendum: JCB chairman tells staff of Brexit support - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36485985" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A bit awkward the next time Cameron rolls up there for a photo op.

He has announced his support for Brexit at least twice previously.

The Times has rehashed this as a "new" story - no surprise to see the BBC going along with that.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 10:30 am

nickyinnorfolk wrote:I wish Wollaston would also change her mind about being a member of the Tory party. She must have realised by now the damage her party has done and continue to do to the NHS. Her own daughter (a junior doc) fled to Australia.

Major's comment about hamsters and hungry pythons has no doubt also been on her mind.

Indeed!

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 10:42 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:EU referendum: JCB chairman tells staff of Brexit support - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36485985" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A bit awkward the next time Cameron rolls up there for a photo op.
He has announced his support for Brexit at least twice previously.

The Times has rehashed this as a "new" story - no surprise to see the BBC going along with that.

Ah, thanks for the info AK.

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 10:42 am

Andrew Pierce in the Mail is withering about William Hague's Damascene conversion to the Remain cause.

We already knew that Hague's failed election campaign in 2001 had 'Save the Pound' as its slogan. As we know Gordon Brown had no intention of the UK switching to the Euro, so Hague's posturing looked pretty empty.

What I didn't know, which Pierce presented as a sort of jolly jape, was that Hague would drive up close behind a car with the Euro symbol on its number plate, flashing his headlights at them. This sounds like the actions of a nasty idiot (Pierce says it was to 'relieve the boredom of long car journeys').

Hague's shtick for his whole political career was his flirty relationship with Euroscepticism. Pierce describes him as a 'brilliant man' who never lived up to his promise. I'd describe him as a very weird man, never seeming to know what he stands for or who he is. There was more of a hint of that when he was a teenager at the Tory conference and using the voice of a curmudgeonly 70 year old.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... icism.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 10:47 am

Good morfternoon.

Arron Banks, the co-founder of Leave.EU says -

For the government to alter election law during an election period is absolutely unprecedented and unconstitutional. This isn’t some democratic initiative, it’s a desperate attempt by the establishment to register as many likely Remain voters as possible before polling day. Terrific efforts have been made to target young people, thought to be more sympathetic to the EU, while older voters who backed Remain in 1975 but have grown heartily sick of the bloc after forty years of broken promises were given a body swerve. (Politics Live, Guardian - my emphasis)

What's Arron Banks on about here (the emphasised bit)? Is he trying to suggest that older voters have been struck off the electoral roll? Anyway, no chance, I feel, of his taking any legal action. All wind and piss, as the expression has it..

As for Sarah Wollaston - she's changed sides from one bunch of liars to the side of another bunch of liars (her own assessment of both sides, paraphrased)? Moved to a better class of liars?

Whilst her change of heart is perhaps welcome, it doesn't really make sense.

Edited - "both" for "either" and an "s" added.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 11:01 am

Write up of Alison Wolf's views on apprenticeships from yesterday.

https://www.tes.com/news/further-educat ... -backwards" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Baroness Wolf said that the government's target of creating 3 million apprentices by 2020 was shifting focus away from making progress in creating higher level apprenticeships.

"We are not making any progress in shifting the focus of apprenticeships to high skill traditional routes," she said. "And actually I don’t understand why, although my hunch is that although with half of its intentions the government is indeed committed to trying to improve apprenticeships... With its other half, of course, it is tied to a 3 million target, and that would have to be my explanation of what is going on."

She added: "I just have to say, I don’t know what’s happening out there. There was a very clear and really quite promising reform programme and it just seems to have run into the sand."

Who'd have thunk that setting an arbitrary target would have created a situation like this? Oh, practically everyone...

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 11:35 am

Why does no-one in the political "bubble" say to Tony Blair, "Look, we all still think you're a straight kind of guy but, in the main, the electorate doesn't. Sad, but true and all that. So bugger off, there's a good chap. You're no help at all, I'm afraid. And you don't need the exposure or the money. After all, you're not exactly hard up for a few bob, are you?"

Are they really so arrogant\dense\out of touch with reality? And John Major was doing so well on the Andrew Marr programme . . .

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 12:23 pm

John Major is now significantly less toxic to the public than Tony Blair is.

To those of us who remember the politics of the 1990s well, that reality still takes a bit of time to sink in.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 12:26 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:John Major is now significantly less toxic to the public than Tony Blair is.

To those of us who remember the politics of the 1990s well, that reality still takes a bit of time to sink in.

How true that is. I was just thinking that Blair advocating Remain could actually push me to Leave. He's symbolic of just about every vested interest and 'I know better than you' that I want to get away from.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 12:27 pm

Why in the world is John Major not considered toxic but Tony Blair is, please?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 12:30 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:John Major is now significantly less toxic to the public than Tony Blair is.

To those of us who remember the politics of the 1990s well, that reality still takes a bit of time to sink in.
How true that is. I was just thinking that Blair advocating Remain could actually push me to Leave. He's symbolic of just about every vested interest and 'I know better than you' that I want to get away from.

That ought to show Blair! Heh. Yeah, vote leave for sure.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 12:45 pm

Major says the questioner will want a productive job. He may want to look after himself and his family. People think of prosperity as an abstract thing. But if you have ever been in the position of not being able to pay a bill at the end of the week, you know that is not abstract.

I promise you, that never, ever leaves you. (Politics Live, Guardian)

That last line, above, of John Major's rang very true. It came across as heartfelt.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 12:45 pm

Sir John Major and Tony Blair sharing a platform to make the case for staying in the EU at the University of Ulster in Londonderry. Photograph: Brian Lawless/PA

Stay in for Sir John Major then

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 12:47 pm

PorFavor wrote:
Major says the questioner will want a productive job. He may want to look after himself and his family. People think of prosperity as an abstract thing. But if you have ever been in the position of not being able to pay a bill at the end of the week, you know that is not abstract.

I promise you, that never, ever leaves you. (Politics Live, Guardian)
That last line, above, of John Major's rang very true. It came across as heartfelt.

He's all heart, Sir John Major is, isn't he.
Real Tory heart.
Good lord.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 1:22 pm

I genuinely haven't opened this. Who could the author be?

How the Sarah Wollaston conspiracy theory proves David Cameron is a political genius http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06 ... cameron-i/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 1:23 pm

Oh I was so sure it was going to be Hodges

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 1:24 pm

it's actually quite funny.

Picture the scene. It’s May 2010. Mr Cameron has just become Prime Minister. He calls an eager-to-please new backbencher into his office for a secret meeting.

“Ah, Sarah,” he says. “Do sit down. I’ve got a job for you. I want you to spend the next six years criticising me, my policies and my circle more or less relentlessly. Then, in the middle of a referendum that it hasn’t yet occurred to me to hold, you can give me an unexpected boost by switching sides! And because you’ll have criticised me more or less relentlessly for the previous six years, no one will suspect that you’re actually my stooge! Except of course for the dazzlingly perceptive Nadine Dorries, who will expose the whole thing, but never mind, there’s nothing we can do about that, she’s just too damned smart.”

You see. When you look at it like that, it all makes perfect sense.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 1:25 pm

I think after Thatcher, there wasn't enough hate left to make Major really toxic, she had used it all up. And he did introduce the "cones hot line" which still makes me chuckle even now. I don't remember ever finding Margaret Thatcher even remotely funny.

As for Blair, I struggle to understand the full degree of peoples' hatred for him. I was very sceptical of his "third way" from the start and found him pretty much as I expected him to be. He did some good stuff and some bad stuff, but mostly I think he simply didn't go far enough - Lord's reform is a good example. What he did do with the Lords was in the right direction, but he really could have gone a lot further. Of course, my opinion of him is always going to be different from most. I wasn't keen on him because of his willingness to continue with Thatcher's privatisations, but I don't hate him for it because I'm not aware he ever hid this. On the other hand, I didn't oppose the Iraq war and I'm still pretty ambivalent about it, much as I have been since it started in 1991 under George Bush Sr and John Major. At the end of the day Saddam Hussein was a real problem, a problem of US and UK making after Reagan and Thatcher supported him during the Iran/Iraq war. As far as I'm concerned Blair simply took his place in a line of UK PMs who aided the US in questionable foreign policy. I'm not about to blame him more than any of the other players, including George Bush Jr, who seems to escape his full responsibility for the bits that went wrong. Reagan and Thatcher supported Hussein at a time when he was responsible for the deaths of thousands of Kurds living in his own country. I struggle to see how Blair is worse for deposing him and securing the semi-autonomous rule for Iraqi Kurds that was first promised in return for their help in the First Gulf War but had been difficult to deliver because of Hussein's refusal to co-operate with the UN.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 1:26 pm

Did you hear the one about the seagull that was turned bright orange after falling into a vat of chicken tikka masala?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 1:28 pm

A new conspiracy theory might spring up. Grant Shapps has come out for Remain.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 1:40 pm

@rebeccariots2

Shapps announces he is backing Remain (Politics Live, Guardian)

Now you've got a real dilemma!!

Edited - brackets

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 1:42 pm

@yahyah

Snap!

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 1:48 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:John Major is now significantly less toxic to the public than Tony Blair is.

To those of us who remember the politics of the 1990s well, that reality still takes a bit of time to sink in.
How true that is. I was just thinking that Blair advocating Remain could actually push me to Leave. He's symbolic of just about every vested interest and 'I know better than you' that I want to get away from.

Remembering back, Major [to me at least] came across as weak and watery. They used to call him the 'grey' man. Many Tories even then were Eurosceptics, and were always causing trouble. He referred to them as bastards.
I think he was as ruthless as the rest of them when you read political biographies of that time, but he was just quieter about his ambition. I also remember they had him take an actual soapbox and stand on it to talk to people in the street, which I thought couldn't look more humiliating if they'd tried.
Pretty sure the 'Elite' Tories looked down their nose at him because of his beginnings. They wanted to re-write Maggie's family tree to make her more blue blooded.

At the time the Conservative government was a joke. Sleaze by the bucket load and didn't really know what the hell they were doing, but not as bad as the bunch we have now. He looks an absolute pussy cat compared to them.

I don't know what it is with Blair. He turned his back on huge section of the party over Iraq. Afterwards pretty sure if he'd kept out of the affairs of the Middle East after being so wrong headed about it, people might not be so against him.
Imagine what he could have done if he'd headed a couple of decent charities and tried to right some of the awful things that have happened over there. Showed a little humility. It goes a long way.

Saying he'd prayed for guidance didn't sit well with many people either. I was uneasy when he joined the Catholic Church after leaving office. Apologies to any Catholics on the thread, but wondered if he felt he needed confession and forgiveness for all those deaths which were partly down to him.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 1:51 pm

PorFavor wrote:@rebeccariots2

Shapps announces he is backing Remain (Politics Live, Guardian)
Now you've got a real dilemma!!

Edited - brackets

Ahh. But what about Green? How's he going to vote?

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 1:59 pm

yahyah wrote:A new conspiracy theory might spring up. Grant Shapps has come out for Remain.

Calculated gamble on where the power lies after the vote maybe? Might be some cabinet seats going spare...

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 2:00 pm

Willow904 wrote:I think after Thatcher, there wasn't enough hate left to make Major really toxic, she had used it all up. And he did introduce the "cones hot line" which still makes me chuckle even now. I don't remember ever finding Margaret Thatcher even remotely funny.

As for Blair, I struggle to understand the full degree of peoples' hatred for him. I was very sceptical of his "third way" from the start and found him pretty much as I expected him to be. He did some good stuff and some bad stuff, but mostly I think he simply didn't go far enough - Lord's reform is a good example. What he did do with the Lords was in the right direction, but he really could have gone a lot further. Of course, my opinion of him is always going to be different from most. I wasn't keen on him because of his willingness to continue with Thatcher's privatisations, but I don't hate him for it because I'm not aware he ever hid this. On the other hand, I didn't oppose the Iraq war and I'm still pretty ambivalent about it, much as I have been since it started in 1991 under George Bush Sr and John Major. At the end of the day Saddam Hussein was a real problem, a problem of US and UK making after Reagan and Thatcher supported him during the Iran/Iraq war. As far as I'm concerned Blair simply took his place in a line of UK PMs who aided the US in questionable foreign policy. I'm not about to blame him more than any of the other players, including George Bush Jr, who seems to escape his full responsibility for the bits that went wrong. Reagan and Thatcher supported Hussein at a time when he was responsible for the deaths of thousands of Kurds living in his own country. I struggle to see how Blair is worse for deposing him and securing the semi-autonomous rule for Iraqi Kurds that was first promised in return for their help in the First Gulf War but had been difficult to deliver because of Hussein's refusal to co-operate with the UN.

Bush is an idiot. Mr Ohso has always thought he was only in office because he was so dumb he could be manipulated by big business - re Cheny - and the Pentagon. The cry used to be that it was all about the oil and that became pretty obvious within a very short time.

It was all quite cynical and Blair becoming so embroiled in it is to his eternal shame.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 2:01 pm

Seeing Major and Blair together made me wonder how much older Major was, only 10 years as it happens. Doesn't look it, on appearances it could be the other way round.

Wasn't he famously the one who ran away from the circus to be an accountant?

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 2:03 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
yahyah wrote:A new conspiracy theory might spring up. Grant Shapps has come out for Remain.
Calculated gamble on where the power lies after the vote maybe? Might be some cabinet seats going spare...

The lot of them don't have a principle between them.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 2:15 pm

Interesting county council by-election in Laindon Park & Fryerns (Basildon) today. Labour narrowly beat UKIP last time it was contested (I think).

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 2:54 pm

Mildly interesting that he was a contemporary of Ken Livingstone in Lambeth local politics, and the two remain quite friendly to this day.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 3:06 pm

EU referendum: Tory MP in 'Eric Pickles' toilet warmer jibe' as tempers flare
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics ... 67471.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

... A Tory MP was accused of being “Eric Pickles’s toilet warmer” as anger over the EU referendum exploded in Parliament.

Eurosceptics rounded on Andrew Griffiths after he infuriated them at Prime Minister’s Questions by allegedly “taking a pop” at fellow Tory Richard Drax.

The row became so intense that one backbencher was scared it would descend into “fisticuffs” between Tory MPs on opposing sides of the Brexit debate...

Oh for a different kind of politics.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 3:27 pm

Pickles toilet warmer? Eurgh. Could be worse. Pickles' toilet cleaner.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 3:30 pm

Paul Waugh ‏@paulwaugh 20m20 minutes ago
Battle to replace Ken Livingstone on Labour's NEC has reignited. @rheawolfson switching CLP to qualify for election:

Momentum’s Rhea Wolfson Revives Bid To Stand For Labour’s NEC
Left’s new move to replace Ken Livingstone
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/r ... ioxgfu5wmi" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 3:55 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
Willow904 wrote:I think after Thatcher, there wasn't enough hate left to make Major really toxic, she had used it all up. And he did introduce the "cones hot line" which still makes me chuckle even now. I don't remember ever finding Margaret Thatcher even remotely funny.

As for Blair, I struggle to understand the full degree of peoples' hatred for him. I was very sceptical of his "third way" from the start and found him pretty much as I expected him to be. He did some good stuff and some bad stuff, but mostly I think he simply didn't go far enough - Lord's reform is a good example. What he did do with the Lords was in the right direction, but he really could have gone a lot further. Of course, my opinion of him is always going to be different from most. I wasn't keen on him because of his willingness to continue with Thatcher's privatisations, but I don't hate him for it because I'm not aware he ever hid this. On the other hand, I didn't oppose the Iraq war and I'm still pretty ambivalent about it, much as I have been since it started in 1991 under George Bush Sr and John Major. At the end of the day Saddam Hussein was a real problem, a problem of US and UK making after Reagan and Thatcher supported him during the Iran/Iraq war. As far as I'm concerned Blair simply took his place in a line of UK PMs who aided the US in questionable foreign policy. I'm not about to blame him more than any of the other players, including George Bush Jr, who seems to escape his full responsibility for the bits that went wrong. Reagan and Thatcher supported Hussein at a time when he was responsible for the deaths of thousands of Kurds living in his own country. I struggle to see how Blair is worse for deposing him and securing the semi-autonomous rule for Iraqi Kurds that was first promised in return for their help in the First Gulf War but had been difficult to deliver because of Hussein's refusal to co-operate with the UN.
Bush is an idiot. Mr Ohso has always thought he was only in office because he was so dumb he could be manipulated by big business - re Cheny - and the Pentagon. The cry used to be that it was all about the oil and that became pretty obvious within a very short time.

It was all quite cynical and Blair becoming so embroiled in it is to his eternal shame.

Oh most of it is clearly about oil, there's no doubt about that, but 9/11 really did rock America. It changed the scope of terrorism and who could be a target. The Pentagon itself proved to be vulnerable. In amongst the lies and cynicism, there was some truth, particularly when it came to Hussein's connections to terrorism and the potential threat that he posed. I'm not inclined to black and white views and the simplistic allocation of motives. Although control of oil was undoubtedly a primary motive, I'm inclined to believe there was some genuine concern about what Hussein was up to, who he was funding and what weapons he may have been supplying to anti-Shiite groups.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 3:59 pm

Chris Ship ‏@chrisshipitv 16m16 minutes ago
On Remain campaign £4300 claim, @sarahwollaston says it's "misleading" to present it "as if individual households would lose that money"

According to Radio 4 this morning Osborne has acknowledged that that figure includes a notional amount for loss of public services. Misleading indeed.

Will we actually have any public services left to lose after a few more years of the Tories?

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 4:02 pm

Since we are discussing Iraq, a speech often forgotten these days.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 4:05 pm

Boots UK boss Simon Roberts quits

Departure of executive vice-president follows claims that staff were forced to abuse an NHS scheme intended to help sick patients (Guardian)

I was wondering how this situation was shaping up. It had all gone quiet.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... erts-quits

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 4:07 pm

PorFavor wrote:
Boots UK boss Simon Roberts quits

Departure of executive vice-president follows claims that staff were forced to abuse an NHS scheme intended to help sick patients (Guardian)
I was wondering how this situation was shaping up. It had all gone quiet.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... erts-quits

Is he the major scapegoat - or will others also be held accountable? I hope the abusive practices have stopped - won't be enough to just change the personnel.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 4:21 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
Boots UK boss Simon Roberts quits

Departure of executive vice-president follows claims that staff were forced to abuse an NHS scheme intended to help sick patients (Guardian)
I was wondering how this situation was shaping up. It had all gone quiet.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... erts-quits
Is he the major scapegoat - or will others also be held accountable? I hope the abusive practices have stopped - won't be enough to just change the personnel.

Well, quite. There doesn't seem to be much "reckoning" involved, does there?