Thursday 9th June 2016

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 4:38 pm

I can't get my mind to process the idea that, in the event of an "Out" vote, there will be no tightening of border controls, customs etc between Northern Ireland and the Republic. Surely it goes against everything the "Out" side says it wants to achieve - ie tighter controls over the EU\UK borders.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 5:01 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
PorFavor wrote:I can't get my mind to process the idea that, in the event of an "Out" vote, there will be no tightening of border controls, customs etc between Northern Ireland and the Republic. Surely it goes against everything the "Out" side says it wants to achieve - ie tighter controls over the EU\UK borders.
The view from the DUP chap on the radio earlier was that with Britain no longer in the EU, there would be no reason for so many migrants to want to come to Britain, as they couldn't work, would only be able to stay for a limited period, couldn't access benefits etc, and the usual immigration processes would apply.

I think they want to simultaneously reassure people in Ireland and NI that their ability to freely move between the North and the Republic - and it is ridiculously convenient now - would remain, while indicating that the status of other EU citizens would be the same as non-EU visitors/migrants now.

Thanks.

So some sort of two-tier EU and UK then?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 5:04 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
Boots UK boss Simon Roberts quits

Departure of executive vice-president follows claims that staff were forced to abuse an NHS scheme intended to help sick patients (Guardian)
I was wondering how this situation was shaping up. It had all gone quiet.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... erts-quits
Is he the major scapegoat - or will others also be held accountable? I hope the abusive practices have stopped - won't be enough to just change the personnel.

Owned by Walgreens a big chemist in the States ... Not surprised they're trying it on over here. Ill people are only good for one thing. Making money.

We aint seen nothing yet.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 5:11 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Chris Ship ‏@chrisshipitv 16m16 minutes ago
On Remain campaign £4300 claim, @sarahwollaston says it's "misleading" to present it "as if individual households would lose that money"
According to Radio 4 this morning Osborne has acknowledged that that figure includes a notional amount for loss of public services. Misleading indeed.

Will we actually have any public services left to lose after a few more years of the Tories?

It's probably not how people would understand the figure but it's not a bad idea to work out the effects of a policy like that. If somebody gives me tax cut and scraps my bus route and kid's play group, I don't think I'm better off necessarily.

They might not wish to apply that to themselves though...

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 5:13 pm

PorFavor wrote:I can't get my mind to process the idea that, in the event of an "Out" vote, there will be no tightening of border controls, customs etc between Northern Ireland and the Republic. Surely it goes against everything the "Out" side says it wants to achieve - ie tighter controls over the EU\UK borders.

Didn't we always have a different arrangement with Southern Ireland when it came travelling to and working within the UK?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 5:13 pm

The NI police are going to be spending a lot of time going after illegal EU workers.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 5:13 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Paul Waugh ‏@paulwaugh 20m20 minutes ago
Battle to replace Ken Livingstone on Labour's NEC has reignited. @rheawolfson switching CLP to qualify for election:

Momentum’s Rhea Wolfson Revives Bid To Stand For Labour’s NEC
Left’s new move to replace Ken Livingstone
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/r ... ioxgfu5wmi" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Arguably a bit cheeky from her (links to said CLP are pretty minimal) but that's arguably what the likes of Jim Murphy deserve.......

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 5:16 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
Paul Waugh ‏@paulwaugh 20m20 minutes ago
Battle to replace Ken Livingstone on Labour's NEC has reignited. @rheawolfson switching CLP to qualify for election:

Momentum’s Rhea Wolfson Revives Bid To Stand For Labour’s NEC
Left’s new move to replace Ken Livingstone
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/r ... ioxgfu5wmi" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Arguably a bit cheeky from her (links to said CLP are pretty minimal) but that's arguably what the likes of Jim Murphy deserve.......

https://www.facebook.com/rhea4nec" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 5:16 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
gilsey wrote:Seeing Major and Blair together made me wonder how much older Major was, only 10 years as it happens. Doesn't look it, on appearances it could be the other way round.

Wasn't he famously the one who ran away from the circus to be an accountant?
That was how The Comic Strip presented it. Sadly, the truth is a bit more mundane. His parents were former music hall and circus performers - his father had gone into business with something involving garden gnomes. Major got a few O-levels at school, a few more through a correspondence course, worked for the electricity board while completing a correspondence course in banking. The rest is equally uninteresting history.

Was it true that he failed the interview to be a bus conductor due to his inability to add up, yet he ended up as Chancellor?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 5:19 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
PorFavor wrote:I can't get my mind to process the idea that, in the event of an "Out" vote, there will be no tightening of border controls, customs etc between Northern Ireland and the Republic. Surely it goes against everything the "Out" side says it wants to achieve - ie tighter controls over the EU\UK borders.
Didn't we always have a different arrangement with Southern Ireland when it came travelling to and working within the UK?

But the Republic is in the EU now. That puts a different complexion on it, surely?

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 5:23 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
PorFavor wrote:I can't get my mind to process the idea that, in the event of an "Out" vote, there will be no tightening of border controls, customs etc between Northern Ireland and the Republic. Surely it goes against everything the "Out" side says it wants to achieve - ie tighter controls over the EU\UK borders.
The view from the DUP chap on the radio earlier was that with Britain no longer in the EU, there would be no reason for so many migrants to want to come to Britain, as they couldn't work, would only be able to stay for a limited period, couldn't access benefits etc, and the usual immigration processes would apply.

I think they want to simultaneously reassure people in Ireland and NI that their ability to freely move between the North and the Republic - and it is ridiculously convenient now - would remain, while indicating that the status of other EU citizens would be the same as non-EU visitors/migrants now.

My wife is from Co. Wexford, and a very close friend is from Belfast. When we went up to NI from Ireland last year the only indication we had crossed the border was the sign, and the lines by the side of the road:

: Border.jpg (75.34 KiB) Viewed 7282 times

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 5:29 pm

PorFavor wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
PorFavor wrote:I can't get my mind to process the idea that, in the event of an "Out" vote, there will be no tightening of border controls, customs etc between Northern Ireland and the Republic. Surely it goes against everything the "Out" side says it wants to achieve - ie tighter controls over the EU\UK borders.
Didn't we always have a different arrangement with Southern Ireland when it came travelling to and working within the UK?

But the Republic is in the EU now. That puts a different complexion on it, surely?

That's one of the great unknowns - Ireland joined the Common Market the same time as us. Prior to that there was a long-standing arrangement that Irish people could travel to the UK, work here & even vote (Thatcher tried to remove this after one IRA atrocity) which I guess was a carry over from when Ireland was part of the UK.
Anyone who has recently gone to Ireland by ferry will know that they tend not to be too bothered about security. The last time I had to show my passport they didn't notice that it was 3 months out of date

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 5:34 pm

Oh FFS. Now someone's saying we won't have an NHS if we stay in the EU on Twitter.

And another moron has said when Turkey joins the NHS will collapse.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 5:37 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Oh FFS. Now someone's saying we won't have an NHS if we stay in the EU on Twitter.

And another moron has said when Turkey joins the NHS will collapse.

Given that Greece & Cyprus are members of the EU, and have a veto on others joining, does anyone really believe that Turkey will ever join the EU?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 5:40 pm

danesclose wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Oh FFS. Now someone's saying we won't have an NHS if we stay in the EU on Twitter.

And another moron has said when Turkey joins the NHS will collapse.
Given that Greece & Cyprus are members of the EU, and have a veto on others joining, does anyone really believe that Turkey will ever join the EU?

I haven't a clue. All I know is you could become a gibbering idiot if you started believing some of the Brexiters.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 5:42 pm

danesclose wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:
gilsey wrote:Seeing Major and Blair together made me wonder how much older Major was, only 10 years as it happens. Doesn't look it, on appearances it could be the other way round.

Wasn't he famously the one who ran away from the circus to be an accountant?
That was how The Comic Strip presented it. Sadly, the truth is a bit more mundane. His parents were former music hall and circus performers - his father had gone into business with something involving garden gnomes. Major got a few O-levels at school, a few more through a correspondence course, worked for the electricity board while completing a correspondence course in banking. The rest is equally uninteresting history.
Was it true that he failed the interview to be a bus conductor due to his inability to add up, yet he ended up as Chancellor?

IIRC he said that a West Indian immigrant was picked for the job ahead of him, something that even at the time he couldn't get too upset about.

His refusal to play the race card ahead of the 1997 GE at PMQs was a genuinely heartening moment, to be fair to him.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 6:06 pm

http://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/bi ... isleading/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

‘Biopsychosocial’ basis for benefit cuts is ‘cavalier, unevidenced and misleading

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 6:20 pm

http://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/uk ... ty-rights/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The UK government is set to face a grilling from UN experts next week over its alleged breaches of international obligations on disabled people’s human rights.

http://tbinternet.ohchr.org/_layouts/tr ... 59&Lang=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

EHRC submission

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/ ... -rights-uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 6:24 pm

I'm out tonight but I'd advise against watching QT....

David Dimbleby presents topical debate from Folkestone. Panellists include Conservative leader of the House of Commons Chris Grayling MP, Labour's shadow soreign secretary Hilary Benn MP, leader of UKIP Nigel Farage MEP, comedian and campaigner Eddie Izzard and Daily Telegraph columnist Allison Pearson.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 6:28 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:I'm out tonight but I'd advise against watching QT....

David Dimbleby presents topical debate from Folkestone. Panellists include Conservative leader of the House of Commons Chris Grayling MP, Labour's shadow soreign secretary Hilary Benn MP, leader of UKIP Nigel Farage MEP, comedian and campaigner Eddie Izzard and Daily Telegraph columnist Allison Pearson.

It'll be nice to see Farage on TV again. It's been so long since he's been on I've almost forgotten what he looks like

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 6:33 pm

Running 28 Marathons in 28 States if Leave loses.I may have got that wrong.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 6:35 pm

Farage is younger than Izzard,and me,I find that hard to believe.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 6:38 pm

I think Mr.Izzard is answering multilingually,with subtitles.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 6:55 pm

Kate McCann ‏@KateEMcCann 2h2 hours ago

NEW: Khalid Mahmood, Brexit backing Labour MP, defecting to remain amid concerns abt tone on "immigration and race"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06 ... s-about-r/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 7:13 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/society/patr ... long-hello" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Debt and food banks: the legacy of universal credit’s Long Hello
There is fresh evidence that lengthy waits for a first benefit payment faced by universal credit claimants trigger hunger and rent arrears

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 7:16 pm

danesclose wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Oh FFS. Now someone's saying we won't have an NHS if we stay in the EU on Twitter.

And another moron has said when Turkey joins the NHS will collapse.
Given that Greece & Cyprus are members of the EU, and have a veto on others joining, does anyone really believe that Turkey will ever join the EU?

Germany aren't keen either. Nor France. Nor Netherlands.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 7:16 pm

http://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/br ... s-pioneer/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Britain must stay in the EU if independent living is to thrive, says pioneer

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 7:19 pm

TheHomeOfFreeSpeech ‏@Saint_Wayne 11h
TheHomeOfFreeSpeech Retweeted AndyCavster
UR welcome Andy. Yes, EU is the poison chalice. There never will be an end to immigration we R2b overwhelmed

AndyCavster @AndyCavster
@Saint_Wayne @davidschneider @ticope87
Well researched & interesting comeback there - can see you know your stuff!…

AndyCavster ‏@AndyCavster 11h
@Saint_Wayne @davidschneider @ticope87
Immigration is essential to our growth, our pensions & the NHS

TheHomeOfFreeSpeech ‏@Saint_Wayne 10h
@AndyCavster @davidschneider @ticope87
Y R we importing MILLIONS of Muslims? 50% of men 75% women dont work #brexit

Michelle Porter ‏@missy_cahill 1h Southport, England
@Saint_Wayne @AndyCavster @davidschneider @ticope87
importing Muslims??? Jesus, I've heard it all now.

AndyCavster ‏@AndyCavster 1h
@missy_cahill @Saint_Wayne @davidschneider @ticope87
Check his TL - it gets worse!

Michelle Porter
‏@missy_cahill
@AndyCavster @Saint_Wayne @davidschneider @ticope87
I did. Just another ignorant bigot. Sad thing is, he probably really believes that crap

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 7:22 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016 ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Poorer children disproportionately affected by austerity measures, says UN

http://tbinternet.ohchr.org/_layouts/tr ... f5&Lang=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 7:31 pm

Useless Kate Hoey on Channel 4 News there.

She said there'd Labour people negotiating the Brexit with Gove etc.

Possibly her or Field might get a gig as useful idiots but they ain't getting Corbyn in.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 7:35 pm

HindleA wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016 ... are_btn_tw

Poorer children disproportionately affected by austerity measures, says UN

http://tbinternet.ohchr.org/_layouts/tr ... f5&Lang=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

An inadequate diet is detrimental to a childs brain power. When they have to compete with a child that's properly and well fed, they're at an immediate disadvantage.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 7:47 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... SApp_Other" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You’re wrong Michael Gove – experts are trusted far more than you

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 7:53 pm

Just been told one of our cats has to be put to sleep tomorrow morning. Tumours. Bolt out the blue, we thought she just had a tail problem. Better half is devastated. We've had her 13 of her 15 years.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 8:00 pm

Sorry to hear that.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 8:02 pm

Corbyn ought to be appearing tonight in the ITV debate. Old Boris is there to be shot down. Seems like Corbyn wants to leave that to Angela Eagle. Sturgeon is also there. Wood and Lucas would be there if they could, no doubt.

Admittedly he'd be on the same side as Amber Rudd, but he ought not be too worried about that. No Cameron or Osborne.

I don't know what media opportunity he's waiting for.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 8:02 pm

StephenDolan wrote:Just been told one of our cats has to be put to sleep tomorrow morning. Tumours. Bolt out the blue, we thought she just had a tail problem. Better half is devastated. We've had her 13 of her 15 years.

Sorry mate, its always an awful thing but the more so when it is unexpected

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 8:06 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:Corbyn ought to be appearing tonight in the ITV debate. Old Boris is there to be shot down. Seems like Corbyn wants to leave that to Angela Eagle. Sturgeon is also there. Wood and Lucas would be there if they could, no doubt.

Admittedly he'd be on the same side as Amber Rudd, but he ought not be too worried about that. No Cameron or Osborne.

I don't know what media opportunity he's waiting for.
A bit of research might not go amiss

http://news.sky.com/story/1708923/eu-vo ... s-audience" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Evening all

Indeed....

and to be honest I don't think Corbyn is that great a debater to be honest...it would be easy for his calm approach to be overblown by the bluster and shite that comes from the Blonde Buffoon.....I think Eagle will be strong at this - she is, and Sturgeon will be pretty formidable as well

Think the In side is stronger in this, although Rudd should be locked in the dressing room

Cameron is not a great debater either but then again he never takes part in them....likes just to spout shite and make things up

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 8:12 pm

@StephenDolan

So sorry.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 8:14 pm

StephenDolan wrote:Just been told one of our cats has to be put to sleep tomorrow morning. Tumours. Bolt out the blue, we thought she just had a tail problem. Better half is devastated. We've had her 13 of her 15 years.

Really sorry to hear that sad news. You've given her some very good cat years by the sound of it.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 8:19 pm

StephenDolan wrote:Just been told one of our cats has to be put to sleep tomorrow morning. Tumours. Bolt out the blue, we thought she just had a tail problem. Better half is devastated. We've had her 13 of her 15 years.

Sorry. Awful when it happens. We still miss our Spike.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 8:25 pm

Briefcase Michael ‏@BriefcaseMike 4m4 minutes ago
This is a format that just doesn't work. And they seem to have chloroformed the audience. #ITVEUdebate

I'm not watching it. Is he right?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 8:30 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:Corbyn ought to be appearing tonight in the ITV debate. Old Boris is there to be shot down. Seems like Corbyn wants to leave that to Angela Eagle. Sturgeon is also there. Wood and Lucas would be there if they could, no doubt.

Admittedly he'd be on the same side as Amber Rudd, but he ought not be too worried about that. No Cameron or Osborne.

I don't know what media opportunity he's waiting for.
A bit of research might not go amiss

http://news.sky.com/story/1708923/eu-vo ... s-audience" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My research tells me that's not as good as being able to tear Johnson a new one on ITV, and shut down lots of the "is he trying?" bollocks. The Tory Remainer is the Amber Rudd, who ought to be easy enough to outshine and distinguish himself from, plus Sturgeon who is due a few from Labour.

Live audiences can be a nightmare for people pulling complete bollocks out of their arses. Obviously Johnson does that but he's probably said most of it now and can have his own words quoted back at him.

Johnson is hot favourite to be next PM. Cameron didnt give Miliband anything like this sort of opportunity against him.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 8:36 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:Corbyn ought to be appearing tonight in the ITV debate. Old Boris is there to be shot down. Seems like Corbyn wants to leave that to Angela Eagle. Sturgeon is also there. Wood and Lucas would be there if they could, no doubt.

Admittedly he'd be on the same side as Amber Rudd, but he ought not be too worried about that. No Cameron or Osborne.

I don't know what media opportunity he's waiting for.
A bit of research might not go amiss

http://news.sky.com/story/1708923/eu-vo ... s-audience" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
My research tells me that's not as good as being able to tear Johnson a new one on ITV, and shut down lots of the "is he trying?" bollocks. The Tory Remainer is the Amber Rudd, who ought to be easy enough to outshine and distinguish himself from, plus Sturgeon who is due a few from Labour.

Live audiences can be a nightmare for people pulling complete bollocks out of their arses. Obviously Johnson does that but he's probably said most of it now and can have his own words quoted back at him.

Johnson is hot favourite to be next PM. Cameron didnt give Miliband anything like this sort of opportunity against him.

I don't think there's anything to be gained from going up against Johnson. It's just the same old boys guffawing banter fest that goes nowhere and isn't what Corbyn is good at or wants to be good at. Far better that he takes a leaf out of Cameron's book (just for once) and has a stand alone 'performance' where he can be more of himself and choose the style etc.

Is Johnson still hot favourite to be next PM? I think he's going to have a real run for his money ... lots of Tories are going to come out of the woodwork fancying their chances. Some of them are on TV now.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 8:54 pm

Johnson is hot favourite. Obviously he won't be if there's a Remain.

Amber Rudd actually did reasonably well against him there.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 9:00 pm

The Remainers are messing this up a bit. None of them pointing out that Switzerland and Norway don't decide everything themselves.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 9:09 pm

Johnson lying there trying to make out the ECHR is the EU.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 9:14 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Johnson lying.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 9:20 pm

Amber Rudd doesn't like Brexiters at all. She is surprisingly good.

Stuart seems to exist in a parallel world where different questions have been asked.

Post by **refitman** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 9:21 pm

@Stephen - sorry to hear about the cat.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 09 Jun, 2016 9:25 pm

Rudd must despair at Gove and others having better jobs than her.