Saturday and Sunday, 11th and 12th June respectively, 2016

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 7:28 am

Good morfternoon.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 7:44 am

Revealed: Cambodia's vast medieval cities hidden beneath the jungle

Exclusive: Laser technology reveals cities concealed under the earth which would have made up the world’s largest empire in 12th century (Guardian)

Hardly contemporary politics, but I find all this quite fascinating.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... ian-jungle

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 7:52 am

Thanks PF, that is interesting. Someone I knew visited Angor Wat over twenty years ago, she said it was amazing.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 8:06 am

I went to Angkor about 13 years ago. It is quite amazing. I loved Cambodia. The people are incredibly charming and very open about the troubled history of their country and the hardship of their daily lives. I'd love to go back and see, hopefully, how things are improving.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 8:56 am

Interesting pic posted by Mike Smithson. It is his grandfather Charles campaigning with his battle cart in the 1920s.

Not much changes apart from the technology.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 9:35 am

Morning. Two articles from Labour Uncut.

Disaffected Labour voters will use the referendum to vent their frustrations
by Kevin Meagher
http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2016/06/08/di ... strations/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and

Labour should be more divided on Europe
by Greig Baker
http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2016/06/10/la ... more-20848" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That last was written before a few more Labour MPs started piping up to say what they were finding on the ground - and a couple declared for Out.

Like Willow I intend to accept and get on with whatever result the referendum brings - Remain or Leave. But it could be bloody either way.

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 9:39 am

The phrase that will be on Cameron's political gravestone:

"You've f***** every f****** thing up," woman tells David Cameron at Facebook/Buzzfeed Brexit debate

The young woman didn't hold back.

“You have screwed students, you have screwed the disabled, the vulnerable.

“I mean, seriously, I have heard you want to take back the Human Rights Act and everything as well.

“I can totally believe that. I wouldn’t put that past you at all, dodgy Dave.”

The gobsmacked Tory leader could be seen swallowing awkwardly as he was subjected to the shock verbal assault.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/yo ... ng-8160029" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cameron made a Faustian pact with the likes of Lynton Crosby and Mark Clarke in his desperation to win the last election. He waved about what he claimed was Liam Byrne's 'no money left' letter at the debate with Miliband (where he refused to actually debate with him). He's lied and lied and lied.

I don't take any pleasure (well not much) in Cameron's downfall even though it's so richly deserved. He's done too much damage.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 9:57 am

Martin Rowson
‏@MartinRowson
Latest Graun toon http://gu.com/p/4kqyz/stw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; here, which consider it doesn't say whether the Historic Calamity was Remain or Brexit, has...

Martin Rowson ‏@MartinRowson 43m
...got loads of people btl very very cross cos they think they know. Like they all seem to know the future too. I always thought Iraq...

Martin Rowson ‏@MartinRowson 41m
...would stand out in my lifetime as the single greatest moment of utter, desperate, unimaginably fucking awful political idiocy & lumpen...

Martin Rowson ‏@MartinRowson 40m
...madness allegedly thoughtful people could sink to. As usual, I was wrong. Come friendly bombs....

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 10:02 am

Michelle ‏@mconway70 18m18 minutes ago
Dyson supporting #brexit mmm I wonder why?

Emil Jones @Emiloldskool
Dyson, the humanitarian, shed 800 UK jobs looking for cheaper labour abroad. Capitalism laid bare

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... lrecession" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 10:24 am

That latest referendum poll in the Indy has "leave" 56-44 ahead IN LONDON. What??

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 10:24 am

Vincent Moss ‏@vincentmoss 9m9 minutes ago
Amid D.Mail Brexit nonsense today, this Rob Hardman piece on voting in Labour's Northern heartlands interesting

Revenge of the betrayed: Abandoned by the metropolitan political elite, their lives utterly changed by mass migration, Labour's northern heartlands could swing it for Brexit
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebookhttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-363616 ... rexit.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 10:26 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:That latest referendum poll in the Indy has "leave" 56-44 ahead IN LONDON. What??

Yes - but it is an ORB poll which some (Smithson) say is the least reliable. And according to numbercruncher (Singh) the age ratio of the sample is very skewed.

But - having said all that - it does fit (overall rather than the London specific figures) with the general narrative and, possibly, trend over the past week or so. Will have to wait and see if other polls start showing increases for Leave.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 10:27 am

And yet there is still a puff piece in today's Graun hyping up *Chuka Umunna* as Labour's next leader. He'll go down well with disaffected Northerners and everything

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 10:28 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:And yet there is still a puff piece in today's Graun hyping up *Chuka Umunna* as Labour's next leader......

Extraordinary, ain't it just.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 10:37 am

Extremely gushing article on Chuka Umunna in the G. I have to say I've always quite liked him and he would undoubtedly have done better than Kendall, but could he lead Labour to victory? I think the person they meet quoted in the article sums it up quite well:

“I felt this country’s not ready for somebody like Chuka. He’s too… dynamic.” But even he says he’s pretty dull, I say; it’s just that he’s mixed-race, knows how to make a mix tape and wears a decent trouser. “It’s enough,” Kwakye says. “We’re not ready. That’s where we are.”

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 10:39 am

Willow904 wrote:Extremely gushing article on Chuka Umunna in the G. I have to say I've always quite liked him and he would undoubtedly have done better than Kendall, but could he lead Labour to victory? I think the person they meet quoted in the article sums it up quite well:

“I felt this country’s not ready for somebody like Chuka. He’s too… dynamic.” But even he says he’s pretty dull, I say; it’s just that he’s mixed-race, knows how to make a mix tape and wears a decent trouser. “It’s enough,” Kwakye says. “We’re not ready. That’s where we are.”

FFS.

'wears a decent trouser'

FFS.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 10:44 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Willow904 wrote:Extremely gushing article on Chuka Umunna in the G. I have to say I've always quite liked him and he would undoubtedly have done better than Kendall, but could he lead Labour to victory? I think the person they meet quoted in the article sums it up quite well:

“I felt this country’s not ready for somebody like Chuka. He’s too… dynamic.” But even he says he’s pretty dull, I say; it’s just that he’s mixed-race, knows how to make a mix tape and wears a decent trouser. “It’s enough,” Kwakye says. “We’re not ready. That’s where we are.”
FFS.

'wears a decent trouser'

FFS.

In the context of the article, it refers to the metrosexual, uses moisturizer persona previously discussed, I think.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 10:48 am

Unemployed Britons in Europe are drawing much more in benefits and allowances in the wealthier EU countries than their nationals are claiming in the UK, despite the British government’s arguments about migrants flocking in to the country to secure better welfare payments.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... dApp_Tweet" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 10:49 am

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... t-rule-out" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just realised I didn't post the link. It's an interesting article, well worth a read. He may or may not be leadership material (he talks of how he was preparing to run the Business Dept in Ed's government before the GE, which sounds a better fit) but he's a more complex character than the slick, professional exterior might suggest.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 10:54 am

ohsocynical wrote:Unemployed Britons in Europe are drawing much more in benefits and allowances in the wealthier EU countries than their nationals are claiming in the UK, despite the British government’s arguments about migrants flocking in to the country to secure better welfare payments.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... dApp_Tweet" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But has the argument ever really been about EU migrants claiming benefits here ... I don't really think so. That's what Cameron tried to make it about when his 'renegotiation' didn't go as he had loudly proclaimed it would. Other EU countries (well some of them - as that headline says, the wealthier ones) have always had better rates of benefit / social security payments than we have.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 10:57 am

Willow904 wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... t-rule-out

Just realised I didn't post the link. It's an interesting article, well worth a read. He may or may not be leadership material (he talks of how he was preparing to run the Business Dept in Ed's government before the GE, which sounds a better fit) but he's a more complex character than the slick, professional exterior might suggest.

I have never warmed to him, and this ridiculous puff piece (why did the Graun spend a month following a backbench MP around anyway?) does nothing to alter that.

He is definitely *not* the leader that Labour's regional heartlands (eyed enviously by UKIP) want or need.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 10:59 am

steve richards Retweeted
Total Politics ‏@TotalPolitics 13h13 hours ago
This week's top comment: Brexit TV clashes are getting us nowhere, says @steverichards14 https://www.totalpolitics.com/articles/ ... us-nowhere" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 11:00 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Willow904 wrote:Extremely gushing article on Chuka Umunna in the G. I have to say I've always quite liked him and he would undoubtedly have done better than Kendall, but could he lead Labour to victory? I think the person they meet quoted in the article sums it up quite well:

“I felt this country’s not ready for somebody like Chuka. He’s too… dynamic.” But even he says he’s pretty dull, I say; it’s just that he’s mixed-race, knows how to make a mix tape and wears a decent trouser. “It’s enough,” Kwakye says. “We’re not ready. That’s where we are.”
FFS.

'wears a decent trouser'

FFS.

Yes, but he's not Jeremy Corbyn, is he? Explains it all.

Post by **refitman** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 11:05 am

Willow904 wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... t-rule-out

Just realised I didn't post the link. It's an interesting article, well worth a read. He may or may not be leadership material (he talks of how he was preparing to run the Business Dept in Ed's government before the GE, which sounds a better fit) but he's a more complex character than the slick, professional exterior might suggest.

(My emphasis)

He needs to show that more then. All I've seen of him is PR & soundbites.

Post by **refitman** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 11:07 am

I would say that last nights The Last Leg is well worth catching. Corbyn did very well (much better than Clegg). Played up his perceived "weaknesses" well and was quite self-deprecating.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 12:23 pm

I'm 89% "In" according to some quiz thing e-mailed to me by 38 Degrees. Has anyone else received\completed it?

Edited to add -

I suppose it's more of a survey than a quiz. There are no right or wrong answers.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 12:29 pm

yahyah wrote:

Interesting pic posted by Mike Smithson. It is his grandfather Charles campaigning with his battle cart in the 1920s.

Not much changes apart from the technology.

Yes but did he declare the costs as local or national?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 12:30 pm

refitman wrote:I would say that last nights The Last Leg is well worth catching. Corbyn did very well (much better than Clegg). Played up his perceived "weaknesses" well and was quite self-deprecating.

Nothing but praise for him on Twitter ...

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 12:50 pm

PorFavor wrote:I'm 89% "In" according to some quiz thing e-mailed to me by 38 Degrees. Has anyone else received\completed it?

Edited to add -

I suppose it's more of a survey than a quiz. There are no right or wrong answers.

I thought about doing the quiz but deleted it instead.

Good-afternoon, everyone.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 1:20 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Michelle ‏@mconway70 18m18 minutes ago
Dyson supporting #brexit mmm I wonder why?

Emil Jones @Emiloldskool
Dyson, the humanitarian, shed 800 UK jobs looking for cheaper labour abroad. Capitalism laid bare

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... lrecession" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I knew a woman in Gloucestershire when we lived there, whose husband had been in a high powered job with his company. Let's just say the way Dyson treated him, or rather dumped him, was not very nice.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 1:25 pm

"Should the UK decide to leave the EU, many of the issues we have examined would be subject to negotiations, the outcome of
which it is not possible to definitively predict. No one can say for certain what our trade arrangements with the EU would be or
how border arrangements with the Republic of Ireland would change, if at all. Nor, of course, do we know what the EU will look
like in, say, five or ten years’ time, or what the depth of the UK’s involvement with the EU will be by that time."

- Laurence Roberts
Committee Chair
Northern Ireland Affairs Committee
NI and the EU Referendum
Tory MP Tewkesbury

http://www.parliament.uk/business/commi ... ort-16-17/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Apologies for posting this again. Is it appropriate having a referendum with such uncertainty surrounding the consequences
of the UK leaving the EU? I love democracy. I love voting. I apologise if I'm offending anyone looking forward to a vote on this,
it's not my intention. I'd love to read why it's a good idea to vote on this now knowing what we know.

Wouldn't a nice referendum choosing UK government for the next few years be a safer, more productive electoral exercise?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 1:39 pm

citizenJA wrote:
"Should the UK decide to leave the EU, many of the issues we have examined would be subject to negotiations, the outcome of
which it is not possible to definitively predict. No one can say for certain what our trade arrangements with the EU would be or
how border arrangements with the Republic of Ireland would change, if at all. Nor, of course, do we know what the EU will look
like in, say, five or ten years’ time, or what the depth of the UK’s involvement with the EU will be by that time."

- Laurence Roberts
Committee Chair
Northern Ireland Affairs Committee
NI and the EU Referendum
Tory MP Tewkesbury

http://www.parliament.uk/business/commi ... ort-16-17/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Apologies for posting this again. Is it appropriate having a referendum with such uncertainty surrounding the consequences
of the UK leaving the EU? I love democracy. I love voting. I apologise if I'm offending anyone looking forward to a vote on this,
it's not my intention. I'd love to read why it's a good idea to vote on this now knowing what we know.

Wouldn't a nice referendum choosing UK government for the next few years be a safer, more productive electoral exercise?

I tend to agree but I must admit I am fed up by all the moaning about 'but we want facts' from people who are either too lazy to look, too stupid to understand or are just using it as an excuse

Facts as to the future never really exist do they....it is just a probability assessment. Some things are more probably than others but in the end you have to look at the information available and then use whatever capabilities you have to assess the likelihood of the decision meeting your own objectives

One thing that seems pretty clear though but a lot of people will be in denial about it - in the short term and medium term there will be a significant economic impact - I actually think the impact may be underestimated to be honest, especially the effect in the short-term the pound and capital outflow.

It is now clear that the whole argument is about immigration and that disgusts me.....

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 1:41 pm

I have to admit I am so frustrated with myself.

Despite practising meditation in the Buddhist tradition, trying to develop compassion and empathy, I still find myself putting a lot of the extreme Leave supporters in the category of 'other'.
Just what I complain about them doing about foreign people.
It isn't easy to be a wise individual.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 1:54 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote: It is now clear that the whole argument is about immigration and that disgusts me.....

Me too.

I agree with Paddy.

We act as though immigration is a new challenge. It is not. Vast movements of population ahead of war and pestilence and plague has always been with us. Churchill called us the “mongrel nation”, made up as we are of Angles and Saxons and Danes and Vikings and Huguenots and Jews and Ugandan Asians and West Indians and the new wave of migrants from eastern Europe. And that is what has shaped our national character.

And by the way London is the mongrel city – which is one of the reasons why it is the world’s only successful mega-city.

Migration is not a new fact. It is an age old one.

Mass movement of people is the new normal – the new global strategic challenge of our time. It is not temporary and it is not time limited and, with global warming, it is only going to increase ...

We will either deal with the new global challenge of migration as a European region together, or we will not deal with it. And we will either deal with it using our humanity, or we will be forced to do it with barbed wire and truncheons – and that way comes, not more peace, but more conflict.

And by the way, given that this is now not just a European challenge, but also a global one, my guess is that it will not be long before we will realise that we need some new global architecture for coping with migration. And if the EU was wise, we should be pushing for that too.

From AS blog yesterday, my bold.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 1:54 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:I tend to agree but I must admit I am fed up by all the moaning about 'but we want facts' from people who are either too lazy to look, too stupid to understand or are just using it as an excuse

Facts as to the future never really exist do they....it is just a probability assessment. Some things are more probably than others but in the end you have to look at the information available and then use whatever capabilities you have to assess the likelihood of the decision meeting your own objectives

One thing that seems pretty clear though but a lot of people will be in denial about it - in the short term and medium term there will be a significant economic impact - I actually think the impact may be underestimated to be honest, especially the effect in the short-term the pound and capital outflow.

It is now clear that the whole argument is about immigration and that disgusts me.....

(cJA edit)

I agree. Underestimating the consequences.
I don't think most people choosing the UK leaving the EU will like the result of that happening.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 1:58 pm

yahyah wrote:I have to admit I am so frustrated with myself.

Despite practising meditation in the Buddhist tradition, trying to develop compassion and empathy, I still find myself putting a lot of the extreme Leave supporters in the category of 'other'.
Just what I complain about them doing about foreign people.
It isn't easy to be a wise individual.

You're aware of yourself, your thoughts. You're fine. Probably. It'd be arrogant of me to think I know anything for sure.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 2:05 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
refitman wrote:I would say that last nights The Last Leg is well worth catching. Corbyn did very well (much better than Clegg). Played up his perceived "weaknesses" well and was quite self-deprecating.
Nothing but praise for him on Twitter ...

Apart from Hodges (or was it Rentoul?), of course.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 2:05 pm

yahyah wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Michelle ‏@mconway70 18m18 minutes ago
Dyson supporting #brexit mmm I wonder why?

Emil Jones @Emiloldskool
Dyson, the humanitarian, shed 800 UK jobs looking for cheaper labour abroad. Capitalism laid bare

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... lrecession" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I knew a woman in Gloucestershire when we lived there, whose husband had been in a high powered job with his company. Let's just say the way Dyson treated him, or rather dumped him, was not very nice.

And his cleaners are expensive, over designed rubbish. I had one and gave it away after a few months. I spent more time unblocking it - which necessitated undoing countless screws and practically taking it to pieces - than I did actually cleaning. It couldn't cope with dog hairs at all.

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 2:07 pm

yahyah wrote:I have to admit I am so frustrated with myself.

Despite practising meditation in the Buddhist tradition, trying to develop compassion and empathy, I still find myself putting a lot of the extreme Leave supporters in the category of 'other'.
Just what I complain about them doing about foreign people.
It isn't easy to be a wise individual.

Love the sinner whilst hating the sin? It reminds me of a quote from a German film director (Wim Wenders I think), who said 'stupidity is the devil'. He spoilt it a bit by adding something about gazing into the senseless eye of a chicken, which seemed a bit unfair to chickens.

I try and practise meditation as well and it is difficult. The Buddhist monk who ran the class would say if you had any intrusive thoughts to think 'that's not important right now'.

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 2:10 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
yahyah wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Michelle ‏@mconway70 18m18 minutes ago
Dyson supporting #brexit mmm I wonder why?

Emil Jones @Emiloldskool
Dyson, the humanitarian, shed 800 UK jobs looking for cheaper labour abroad. Capitalism laid bare

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... lrecession" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I knew a woman in Gloucestershire when we lived there, whose husband had been in a high powered job with his company. Let's just say the way Dyson treated him, or rather dumped him, was not very nice.
And his cleaners are expensive, over designed rubbish. I had one and gave it away after a few months. I spent more time unblocking it - which necessitated undoing countless screws and practically taking it to pieces - than I did actually cleaning. It couldn't cope with dog hairs at all.

I've never owned one but had got the impression they weren't what they were cracked up to be. There was a time in the late 90s when they were really the thing to have if you wanted to impress the neighbours. Now, not so much ...

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 2:10 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
yahyah wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Michelle ‏@mconway70 18m18 minutes ago
Dyson supporting #brexit mmm I wonder why?

Emil Jones @Emiloldskool
Dyson, the humanitarian, shed 800 UK jobs looking for cheaper labour abroad. Capitalism laid bare

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... lrecession" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I knew a woman in Gloucestershire when we lived there, whose husband had been in a high powered job with his company. Let's just say the way Dyson treated him, or rather dumped him, was not very nice.
And his cleaners are expensive, over designed rubbish. I had one and gave it away after a few months. I spent more time unblocking it - which necessitated undoing countless screws and practically taking it to pieces - than I did actually cleaning. It couldn't cope with dog hairs at all.

Our cleaner at work nearly went on strike when the manager bought a Dyson. She hated it.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 2:13 pm

yahyah wrote:I have to admit I am so frustrated with myself.

Despite practising meditation in the Buddhist tradition, trying to develop compassion and empathy, I still find myself putting a lot of the extreme Leave supporters in the category of 'other'.
Just what I complain about them doing about foreign people.
It isn't easy to be a wise individual.

The best way to cope is recognise there are a lot of 'shits' in the world that come in all shapes, nationalities and colours. There's no rhyme or reason; shit happens and you'd go mad trying to make excuses or find reasons why it's so.

Discard them. Tuck them away in a space called 'Not worth the effort'.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 2:21 pm

yahyah wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
yahyah wrote:
I knew a woman in Gloucestershire when we lived there, whose husband had been in a high powered job with his company. Let's just say the way Dyson treated him, or rather dumped him, was not very nice.
And his cleaners are expensive, over designed rubbish. I had one and gave it away after a few months. I spent more time unblocking it - which necessitated undoing countless screws and practically taking it to pieces - than I did actually cleaning. It couldn't cope with dog hairs at all.

Our cleaner at work nearly went on strike when the manager bought a Dyson. She hated it.

It was truly awful...We had three dogs. In desperation I went to John Lewis and explained about the Dyson and its constant blockages. They recommended Sebo and showed me how easy it was if you got a blockage. So I treated myself to one of their uprights and then a couple of months later one of their cylinders. That was 17 years ago. They have never gone wrong. Although a blockage is easy to get at I doubt I've had it happen more than half a dozen times in all these years...They're a bit heavy which didn't matter when I was in my fifties, but does now, but I've no plans to replace them.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 2:27 pm

I am not someone who is naturally given to saying lots of nice things about the country of my residence - what an ungrateful immigrant I am (or am I an ex-pat cos I am a Brit?)

However, just watching the Albania Switzerland match and the amazing links between the two countries. It is pretty obvious here that a large number of people are immigrants but who are the refugees or not is not so clear. It is fairly common knowledge that Switzerland has lots of immigrants (25% non-Swiss although a good proportion of these were born here as well as many do not choose to take up citizenship) but I had a look and per capita they take in about 5 times as many refugees as the UK

The Swiss team has 5 players who have Albanian/Kosovan roots and 6 of the Albanian team were born or brought up in Switzerland. I am talking here of starting teams as well....not even squads! Two brothers are facing each other

I wonder if there has ever been a match such as this in a high-level competition

These are all refugees coming from the civil war and is something that has actually cheered me up after having been exposed to the bile coming out of the Leave campaign in the last few days (and that includes you Mann you nauseating little bastard!)

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 2:32 pm

YahYah:

You can feel compassionate towards the shits...There'll be all sorts of reasons why they're the way they are, but you're never going to change them, so you have to leave them to their own karma.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 2:34 pm

John Mann - file along with fellow "horny handed sons of toil" Dugher and McFadden as somebody who has never ever had a "proper" job.

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 2:35 pm

Good, if troubling, article about how the issues regarding the EU aren't black and white, and also how the Tory party were pro Europe cheerleaders when we had the first referendum - and why.

.....The best the left seem to be able to come up with is the idea that the EU is deeply flawed, but that the solution is to fix it from within, rather than to fire the ejector seat and land in a putrefying ocean of unconstrained Tory fanaticism.

There are signs of hope that the EU can be reformed from within (the rise of left-wing parties in Greece, Portugal and Spain), however the EU technocrats have demonstrated their abject fear of democratic socialism through their treatment of Greece and their insistence on continuation of their negotiations towards the TTIP corporate power grab, despite the fact that pretty much everyone in Europe who has actually heard of it thinks that it's an unspeakably awful idea to allow corporations to completely over-write sovereign democratic and judicial institutions with secretive unaccountable transnational corporate tribunals.

As far as I'm concerned, the EU stinks. However unconstrained Tory fanaticism stinks an awful lot more. I guess the debate boils down to whether you have more faith that the EU institutions can be shifted away from the promotion of fanatically right-wing economic dogma, or whether you think there is some way of stopping the even more fanatically right-wing Tories should they be handed absolute power through a vote for Brexit.

I think I've made it pretty clear in this article that I don't want to tell you how to vote. As far as I'm concerned it's a choice between a rock and a hard place. I just hope that my explanation of the complete polarity shift in the EU referendum debate since the last referendum gives you some idea that the majority of contemporary opinion on the subject is politically partisan rubbish (which is nothing less that you'd expect from the billionaire sociopaths who own most of the UK media).

http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk ... orget.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 2:41 pm

I've just had the EU quiz (wonder why I didn't get it earlier, I'm probably being discriminated against), took it and I'm 81% In as well

Told me nothing I didn't know.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 2:41 pm

ohsocynical wrote:YahYah:

You can feel compassionate towards the shits...There'll be all sorts of reasons why they're the way they are, but you're never going to change them, so you have to leave them to their own karma.

I was reading a book by a left wing philosopher the other day.
Can't remember his name, have taken it back to the library.
It was about empathy, how we need to develop it personally, and as a society.

He wrote about working in South America some years ago, on a project about the small number of oligarch families who controlled business and amassed wealth.
He interviewed people who were wealthy exploiters, those who were supportive of the military juntas at the time and backed murderous repression of union members and left wingers.
He learnt to see where they were coming from, which helped him.
He still disliked their politics and lifestyles but gained an understanding of why they were the way they were.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 11 Jun, 2016 2:43 pm

nickyinnorfolk wrote:Good, if troubling, article about how the issues regarding the EU aren't black and white, and also how the Tory party were pro Europe cheerleaders when we had the first referendum - and why.

.....The best the left seem to be able to come up with is the idea that the EU is deeply flawed, but that the solution is to fix it from within, rather than to fire the ejector seat and land in a putrefying ocean of unconstrained Tory fanaticism.

There are signs of hope that the EU can be reformed from within (the rise of left-wing parties in Greece, Portugal and Spain), however the EU technocrats have demonstrated their abject fear of democratic socialism through their treatment of Greece and their insistence on continuation of their negotiations towards the TTIP corporate power grab, despite the fact that pretty much everyone in Europe who has actually heard of it thinks that it's an unspeakably awful idea to allow corporations to completely over-write sovereign democratic and judicial institutions with secretive unaccountable transnational corporate tribunals.

As far as I'm concerned, the EU stinks. However unconstrained Tory fanaticism stinks an awful lot more. I guess the debate boils down to whether you have more faith that the EU institutions can be shifted away from the promotion of fanatically right-wing economic dogma, or whether you think there is some way of stopping the even more fanatically right-wing Tories should they be handed absolute power through a vote for Brexit.

I think I've made it pretty clear in this article that I don't want to tell you how to vote. As far as I'm concerned it's a choice between a rock and a hard place. I just hope that my explanation of the complete polarity shift in the EU referendum debate since the last referendum gives you some idea that the majority of contemporary opinion on the subject is politically partisan rubbish (which is nothing less that you'd expect from the billionaire sociopaths who own most of the UK media).
http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk ... orget.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think that is a logical reason for voting leave and, if there was a good way out then I may consider supporting it. It is a rock and a hard place to be fair

The problem is this is all around economics, trade and the social politics. The British Leave campaign is now predominantly about immigration and the negotiations for Brexit and the country we will be following it is going to be a diminished place, never mind the impact of the economic fall-out