Monday 13th June 2016

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 8:07 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:If I disappear for a while - or possibly longer - it'll be because I've been pondering withdrawing from FTN for a bit now as I feel so out of step with the majority view here on the EU ref. It doesn't feel comfortable - and I don't want to get to where I feel more 'othered' than I can cope with and don't want to be here at all.

Definitely no flouncing or one to one sparring - not my style.

No! Don't let David Cameron win - and I'm not talking about "In" and "Out" here. I'm talking about his being responsible for coming between (if only temporarily - and I hope if you do decide to take a break it will only be temporary) what I consider to be friendships . I hope I haven't made you feel "othered". And to be honest, I think it's been a friendly enough debate here. I know you have your doubts about the EU. So do I (but perhaps not the same ones or as many as you do) - but I've just happpened to come down on the "Remain" side.

Oh - how's the dog? What name was chosen (or did I miss that)?

Anyway, take care. (Not in a "we know where you live" way!)

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 8:10 pm

Write about whatever you need to here regarding the EU referendum

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 8:14 pm

PorFavor wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:If I disappear for a while - or possibly longer - it'll be because I've been pondering withdrawing from FTN for a bit now as I feel so out of step with the majority view here on the EU ref. It doesn't feel comfortable - and I don't want to get to where I feel more 'othered' than I can cope with and don't want to be here at all.

Definitely no flouncing or one to one sparring - not my style.
No! Don't let David Cameron win - and I'm not talking about "In" and "Out" here. I'm talking about his being responsible for coming between (if only temporarily - and I hope if you do decide to take a break it will only be temporary) what I consider to be friendships . I hope I haven't made you feel "othered". And to be honest, I think it's been a friendly enough debate here. I know you have your doubts about the EU. So do I (but perhaps not the same ones or as many as you do) - but I've just happpened to come down on the "Remain" side.

Oh - how's the dog? What name was chosen (or did I miss that)?

Anyway, take care. (Not in a "we know where you live" way!)

Funnily enough I was starting to feel a little uncomfortable myself. I've voted Remain but I'm quite clear there are highly principled reasons for voting Leave, as well as some very unprincipled ones.

Let's get back to the issues and respect everyone here's views, whichever side they are leaning to! And yes make sure we give Dave a hard time for holding the sodding referendum in the first place.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 8:21 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:If I disappear for a while - or possibly longer - it'll be because I've been pondering withdrawing from FTN for a bit now as I feel so out of step with the majority view here on the EU ref. It doesn't feel comfortable - and I don't want to get to where I feel more 'othered' than I can cope with and don't want to be here at all.

Definitely no flouncing or one to one sparring - not my style.

Oh please don't. I'm not against anyone voting out. I'm tempted myself, although dreadfully worried about how this bunch of bloody idiots in charge will cope with the changes if we leave, I keep coming back to the fact that I hate Gove, IDS and Johnson so much I just can't give them my support. It's totally the wrong way to decide something so important and I'm hoping something will crop up that gives me a good excuse not to go to the polling station.

I know my local party is extremely worried at the number of Labour voters who are going for Brexit, and when asked they've nearly all said immigration was the reason, and that's upsetting some members because immigration isn't why they are voting leave but they feel they are being tarred with the same brush

It's a stupid, unnecessary mess.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 8:21 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:If I disappear for a while - or possibly longer - it'll be because I've been pondering withdrawing from FTN for a bit now as I feel so out of step with the majority view here on the EU ref. It doesn't feel comfortable - and I don't want to get to where I feel more 'othered' than I can cope with and don't want to be here at all.

Definitely no flouncing or one to one sparring - not my style.
No! Don't let David Cameron win - and I'm not talking about "In" and "Out" here. I'm talking about his being responsible for coming between (if only temporarily - and I hope if you do decide to take a break it will only be temporary) what I consider to be friendships . I hope I haven't made you feel "othered". And to be honest, I think it's been a friendly enough debate here. I know you have your doubts about the EU. So do I (but perhaps not the same ones or as many as you do) - but I've just happpened to come down on the "Remain" side.

Oh - how's the dog? What name was chosen (or did I miss that)?

Anyway, take care. (Not in a "we know where you live" way!)
Funnily enough I was starting to feel a little uncomfortable myself. I've voted Remain but I'm quite clear there are highly principled reasons for voting Leave, as well as some very unprincipled ones.

Let's get back to the issues and respect everyone here's views, whichever side they are leaning to! And yes make sure we give Dave a hard time for holding the sodding referendum in the first place.

There are some principled reasons for voting to leave but I know virtually no-one who is voting because of them - the are voting leave because they blame 'foreigners' and 'immigrants' for the mess the Tories have made of the country. When you try to join this out you just get a tirade of anecdotes which are fantastical to say the least

I also understand where Tusk was coming from earlier as well....I personally think that without the EU we would see some openly fascist countries in the young democracies in the East. I have a lot of European friends who are scared that Brexit will bring the whole thing crashing down due to the same lazy stereotyping of foreigners and from there it is not a big step to fascism.....

The Leave campaign has been poisonous, yes Remain has exaggerated somewhat but you cannot compare them

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 8:29 pm

And now thanks to the media setting it up to blame Corbyn and Labour if the country does vote leave, Labour is upping its game and hoping faithful party members support the party line of Remain.

I wonder if a lot of people will simply not vote rather than go with something they don't wholly believe in ... And I couldn't blame them.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 8:41 pm

One thing's for sure. Dave's split the country in two North and South, and now he's causing a further split.

I wonder if he'll go down in the history books as the Premier who killed the UK?

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 8:48 pm

ohsocynical wrote:And now thanks to the media setting it up to blame Corbyn and Labour if the country does vote leave, Labour is upping its game and hoping faithful party members support the party line of Remain.

I wonder if a lot of people will simply not vote rather than go with something they don't wholly believe in ... And I couldn't blame them.

I have been getting to that place. This referendum is simply not about 'party' stuff for me. I dislike any assumption by any party person that someone should vote in a particular way because of the party. It's a referendum - it's about an issue and a personal choice.

The thing I am tussling with most is where I feel I have an iota of a chance of effecting any change. Closer to home and getting a different / better UK government - or within the EU and being able to reform it? There are risks and unknowns with both Remain and Leave. The EU is not static - who knows how it will develop over the coming years. Do I think we - the public - can actually influence it for the better. Or will it plough on in a direction that feels relentless. I am deeply concerned about stuff like the EU army proposal - given recent events and the kind of people arguing for it - especially when I hear it has been deliberately held back until after our referendum. Every time Juncker opens his mouth I wish he'd shut up.

There are loads of issues I'm weighing up. None of the debates and discussions have done anything to allay my concerns. Most of the interventions have made me lean more towards leave. The way I'm feeling at the moment I might just not vote at all - and that would be a first (other than that awful first PCC election).

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 8:57 pm

" I dislike any assumption by any party person that someone should vote in a particular way because of the party. It's a referendum - it's about an issue and a personal choice."

Couldn't agree more.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 9:01 pm

: Peach Coloured Bayonet.jpg (43.91 KiB) Viewed 6154 times

On second thoughts ....

Maeght · Post by **Maeght** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 9:11 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:If I disappear for a while - or possibly longer - it'll be because I've been pondering withdrawing from FTN for a bit now as I feel so out of step with the majority view here on the EU ref. It doesn't feel comfortable - and I don't want to get to where I feel more 'othered' than I can cope with and don't want to be here at all.

Definitely no flouncing or one to one sparring - not my style.

Please don't go. I appreciate your thoughtful posts so much.

And who else will tell us about the badgers, the Welsh Countryside and all those people you meet?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 9:13 pm

I was having discussion at work about Brexit today. As most of my colleagues are young Swiss and French they are bemused by why Britain would want to leave and they keep asking me what is better outside than in....and I cannot articulate a coherent reason what is actually supposed to get better

I have worked on 'change programs' in a big company and the difficulty in getting anyone to change the status quo is marked. You usually have to have so many good reasons to make them do it, or the model of a burning bridge.

It seems in this case there is no need to give any concrete benefit, just say it will be better....and most of the better is because of the immigrant question, with a certain ambivalence to the economic arguments. This completely baffles me.

I know the people who are drifting towards Leave on here have higher values than that and are basing it on other factors - I understand and actually agree with a lot of them

If we were voting to join now I am not sure I would, and I am sure that is why Switzerland and Norway have never voted to join....it would be too disruptive to the status quo and they are happy with their historical links to EFTA and the EEA.

All I take of it is that the British are very very angry and are using the EU as a scapegoat....pity they don't blame the real culprits ......the bastard Tories

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 9:23 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... n-services" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Labour fears potential privatisation of child protection services
Party wants a ‘lock’ inserted in children and social work bill, in the event plans open up services to for-profit organisations

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 9:23 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:

All I take of it is that the British are very very angry and are using the EU as a scapegoat....pity they don't blame the real culprits ......the bastard Tories

That's part of my tussling. Would it actually make it easier for the British public to accurately identify the shits causing them grief and strife and do something about it if the EU wasn't there? That's the bit of accountability I'd really like to see happen. And that question comes partly from my own experiences when out canvassing seeing how difficult it is for people to differentiate between which government / authority does and is responsible for what. We've got four tiers of government / authority here and very few people seem to be clear about what each is responsible for - makes for easy scapegoating at every election and inbetween.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 9:24 pm

I have voted Remain.

But a rebellious part of me wishes for the quite likely outcome of a narrow result either way where different regions have voted differently in the hope that the ensuing constitutional crisis would lead to something better.

I think Ephemerid and I toyed with this thought around the Indy Ref. In the end it's a highly risky way to get a better place. Hence my rather staid Remain vote

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 9:25 pm

http://www.civilsociety.co.uk/governanc ... 18WqHrTVpU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Trussell Trust chief executive criticises Tories in front of minister at Charity Awards

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 9:34 pm

I voted in the original referendum ... And voted against joining. There is such a big difference between that campaign and this. I actually found it very boring. Endless panels of politicians giving facts and figures for and against. I do remember that we still had a manufacturing industry and there was a lot of talk about the markets and jobs that would open up for us if we joined...Free movement was also lauded.

The Berlin wall came down. Communism collapsed. The EU has grown. Their is a refugee crisis thanks to our bombing in the Mid East. We don't have a manufacturing industry as such any more. And unemployment thanks to the banks is high right across the EU.

It feels as if the reasons for joining then just aren't that relevant any more.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 9:35 pm

Mr Riots posited a view of Cameron to me that should seem preposterous but actually seems quite feasible and rational. He said that basically it is almost immaterial which party he fronts or belongs to. He is basically an empty vessel that will spout any message that suits at the moment. He could easily be hired out to spin and schmooze and smear any viewpoint for the right rewards ... spiv for sale.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 9:38 pm

Beyond parody

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... recessions" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

george-osborne-brexit-is-for-the-rich-recessions

He says Brexit is only for the rich who can afford recessions and the economic risks of Brexit might well lead to public sector cuts!

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 9:40 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:Mr Riots posited a view of Cameron to me that should seem preposterous but actually seems quite feasible and rational. He said that basically it is almost immaterial which party he fronts or belongs to. He is basically an empty vessel that will spout any message that suits at the moment. He could easily be hired out to spin and schmooze and smear any viewpoint for the right rewards ... spiv for sale.

That reminds me of something my gran used to say. 'He'd be anybody's for a sniff of their armpit.' I never totally figured the meaning out, and Gran never enlightened me, but it seems to fit our Dave to a T.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 9:42 pm

He wouldn't survive mine, I have a cunning plan.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 9:43 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:Mr Riots posited a view of Cameron to me that should seem preposterous but actually seems quite feasible and rational. He said that basically it is almost immaterial which party he fronts or belongs to. He is basically an empty vessel that will spout any message that suits at the moment. He could easily be hired out to spin and schmooze and smear any viewpoint for the right rewards ... spiv for sale.
That reminds me of something my gran used to say. 'He'd be anybody's for a sniff of their armpit.' I never totally figured the meaning out, and Gran never enlightened me, but it seems to fit our Dave to a T.

I think it might be something to do with them there pheromones - meant to drive us mad with desire.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 9:44 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:Mr Riots posited a view of Cameron to me that should seem preposterous but actually seems quite feasible and rational. He said that basically it is almost immaterial which party he fronts or belongs to. He is basically an empty vessel that will spout any message that suits at the moment. He could easily be hired out to spin and schmooze and smear any viewpoint for the right rewards ... spiv for sale.

I think there's quite a lot in that. He's basically a front-man. However, I think he's political enough to only be interested in any outfit that protects, or affords him the scope to protect, his class and financial interests. But probably only from an instinctive, bred-in sense of self-preservation rather than from any conscious adoption of any particular creed.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 9:46 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Beyond parody

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... recessions" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

george-osborne-brexit-is-for-the-rich-recessions

He says Brexit is only for the rich who can afford recessions and the economic risks of Brexit might well lead to public sector cuts!

No good looking to MPs for sensible answers

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 9:52 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Beyond parody

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... recessions" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

george-osborne-brexit-is-for-the-rich-recessions

He says Brexit is only for the rich who can afford recessions and the economic risks of Brexit might well lead to public sector cuts!

If the country is poorer it obviously follows that the poorest and the disabled will bear the brunt, eh George - you'll make sure of that. It couldn't be managed any other way - no, no, no. That's basically what he's saying.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 9:53 pm

HindleA wrote:He wouldn't survive mine, I have a cunning plan.

You've also been in very close proximity to masses of pork pies HindleA. That would kill him for sure.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 9:54 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:

All I take of it is that the British are very very angry and are using the EU as a scapegoat....pity they don't blame the real culprits ......the bastard Tories
That's part of my tussling. Would it actually make it easier for the British public to accurately identify the shits causing them grief and strife and do something about it if the EU wasn't there? That's the bit of accountability I'd really like to see happen. And that question comes partly from my own experiences when out canvassing seeing how difficult it is for people to differentiate between which government / authority does and is responsible for what. We've got four tiers of government / authority here and very few people seem to be clear about what each is responsible for - makes for easy scapegoating at every election and inbetween.

I assume if Brexit wins Farage and UKIP would be surplus to requirements? That's a very strong reason for leave.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 9:56 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
HindleA wrote:He wouldn't survive mine, I have a cunning plan.
You've also been in very close proximity to masses of pork pies HindleA. That would kill him for sure.

Death by frozen Pork Pie. Thrown or eaten?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 9:56 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Beyond parody

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... recessions" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

george-osborne-brexit-is-for-the-rich-recessions

He says Brexit is only for the rich who can afford recessions and the economic risks of Brexit might well lead to public sector cuts!
If the country is poorer it obviously follows that the poorest and the disabled will bear the brunt, eh George - you'll make sure of that. It couldn't be managed any other way - no, no, no. That's basically what he's saying.

Yes. I've got Bachman Turner Overdrive going round in my head, now.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 9:58 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:

All I take of it is that the British are very very angry and are using the EU as a scapegoat....pity they don't blame the real culprits ......the bastard Tories
That's part of my tussling. Would it actually make it easier for the British public to accurately identify the shits causing them grief and strife and do something about it if the EU wasn't there? That's the bit of accountability I'd really like to see happen. And that question comes partly from my own experiences when out canvassing seeing how difficult it is for people to differentiate between which government / authority does and is responsible for what. We've got four tiers of government / authority here and very few people seem to be clear about what each is responsible for - makes for easy scapegoating at every election and inbetween.
I assume if Brexit wins Farage and UKIP would be surplus to requirements? That's a very strong reason for leave.

Not sure about that.....

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 10:02 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:

All I take of it is that the British are very very angry and are using the EU as a scapegoat....pity they don't blame the real culprits ......the bastard Tories
That's part of my tussling. Would it actually make it easier for the British public to accurately identify the shits causing them grief and strife and do something about it if the EU wasn't there? That's the bit of accountability I'd really like to see happen. And that question comes partly from my own experiences when out canvassing seeing how difficult it is for people to differentiate between which government / authority does and is responsible for what. We've got four tiers of government / authority here and very few people seem to be clear about what each is responsible for - makes for easy scapegoating at every election and inbetween.

You are quite right. I hadn't thought of that. I worry about the suffering that might cause though. Not that we're going to be having a better time of it if we Remain, but I'm wary of anything that might make it even worse, and the Tories are so incompetent it could well happen.

I suspect a lot of people will vote remain, because it's the devil they know. At least that's the impression I get from quite a few Tweets.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 10:03 pm

Tonnes of bacon,which may be more apt.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 10:07 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote: That's part of my tussling. Would it actually make it easier for the British public to accurately identify the shits causing them grief and strife and do something about it if the EU wasn't there? That's the bit of accountability I'd really like to see happen. And that question comes partly from my own experiences when out canvassing seeing how difficult it is for people to differentiate between which government / authority does and is responsible for what. We've got four tiers of government / authority here and very few people seem to be clear about what each is responsible for - makes for easy scapegoating at every election and inbetween.
I assume if Brexit wins Farage and UKIP would be surplus to requirements? That's a very strong reason for leave.

Not sure about that.....

What would they do though? I presume their MEP jobs would be obsolete. We'd be out of the EU which has been their platform.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 10:07 pm

HindleA wrote:Tonnes of bacon,which may be more apt.

Do what?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 10:09 pm

HindleA wrote:Tonnes of bacon,which may be more apt.

You mean to tell us you've eaten all the Christmas Pork Pies?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 10:10 pm

Bloody sick of them,to be honest.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 10:12 pm

@HindleA

As you were. The penny has dropped.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 10:17 pm

FWIW some of work colleagues were ex Sports Direct at the (in)famous Shirebrook.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 10:22 pm

HindleA wrote:Bloody sick of them,to be honest.

My tame crow likes a bit of pork pie. I made a load of small ones a few days ago. Chopped up a couple today and put them out. There is now a solitary seagull that hangs around. He likes them too.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 10:25 pm

Oh well. Off to bed. Another day, another dollar. Or should that be another day, another pork pie?

Night all.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 10:27 pm

@ohsocynical

Night night!

I'm off now, too - so night night everyone!

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 10:33 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... government" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

messages from carers to the government

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 10:39 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
HindleA wrote:Tonnes of bacon,which may be more apt.
You mean to tell us you've eaten all the Christmas Pork Pies?

Whatever happened to the wine mountain and butter lake?

I'm pretty sure I voted against joining the Common Market in the original referendum. We had more varied trade options with the Commonwealth (imo). Having largely ditched these, I don't see any real alternative but to remain in the EU. The 'trade without membership' options are, to say the least, optimistic (again imo).

I don't see the anti-immigrant tirades as being in the least relevant.

Too late to change now - vote cast. I'll be in the dreaded Europe next week - Hope I won't be deported on Friday.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 10:43 pm

PorFavor wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:Mr Riots posited a view of Cameron to me that should seem preposterous but actually seems quite feasible and rational. He said that basically it is almost immaterial which party he fronts or belongs to. He is basically an empty vessel that will spout any message that suits at the moment. He could easily be hired out to spin and schmooze and smear any viewpoint for the right rewards ... spiv for sale.
I think there's quite a lot in that. He's basically a front-man. However, I think he's political enough to only be interested in any outfit that protects, or affords him the scope to protect, his class and financial interests. But probably only from an instinctive, bred-in sense of self-preservation rather than from any conscious adoption of any particular creed.

You can see him as a Lib Dem Orange Booker, for sure.

He's kept their pupil premium, I think. Though that has to come under pressure.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 10:56 pm

Charles Tannock, a sensible Tory MEP, still beavering away on facts. Poor bloke must wish he could go back to 1999 when he was first elected and could work constructively in the main Tory group, instead of enduring Law and Justice and Germany's Kippers.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 11:11 pm

Tom Davidson ‏@DPTomDavidson 19m19 minutes ago Llandudno, Wales
Reports on social media of an earthquake in North West Wales! #anglesey #gwynedd

Good grief. No doubt this will be blamed on immigration by someone somewhere. Don't forget we've been told that the country is sinking - literally sinking - under the weight of all the people.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 11:26 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Oh well. Off to bed. Another day, another dollar. Or should that be another day, another pork pie?

Night all.

Goodnight, Ohso!

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 11:29 pm

PorFavor wrote:@ohsocynical

Night night!

I'm off now, too - so night night everyone!

Goodnight, PorFavor!

Goodnight, everyone.
love,
cJA

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 11:51 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Beyond parody

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... recessions" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

george-osborne-brexit-is-for-the-rich-recessions

He says Brexit is only for the rich who can afford recessions and the economic risks of Brexit might well lead to public sector cuts!
If the country is poorer it obviously follows that the poorest and the disabled will bear the brunt, eh George - you'll make sure of that. It couldn't be managed any other way - no, no, no. That's basically what he's saying.

Brexit could put cuts to support for disabled people back on the agenda.

“How can a poorer country afford exactly the same on the health service, the education system, support for the vulnerable like disabled people, support for the rural communities like this one, support for housing?” he said.

“If the country’s poorer, it’s got less money. Everybody accepts that if we leave the EU we are trading less, there’s lots of uncertainty, businesses aren’t investing and there is less money coming into the exchequer.

“So we need to think this through. It’s not possible to fund all these things if the country is poorer.”

Lower than vermin.