Tuesday 14th June 2016

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 6:35 am

Morning all.

EU referendum: leave takes six-point lead in Guardian/ICM polls

http://gu.com/p/4yxba" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, the latest polling is grim, grim, grim. Labour VI referendum polling figures aren't as Pro remain as anticipated but that'd be enough if Cameron could take his party with him. Which he patently isn't. Blaming Labour Party /supporters is freaking ridiculous. If a majority of Conservative voters vote out, how can Cameron, the front man of remain possibly stay? His pig is roasted. In fact, with his position opposing the majority that vote Conservative how can he survive either way?
I'm praying that the BBC coverage stops making this an Immigration Referendum and that a remain (albeit by a narrow margin) is still on the cards.

' The mood at Westminster has recently turned, especially bleak among Labour MPs concerned that the party’s arguments for remaining in Europe are not connecting with its voters. The latest telephone poll suggests that remain is still the preferred choice of Labour voters, by 58% to 38%.

'However, this balance is not sufficiently emphatic to overpower the combination of a slight 49%-47% margin for leave among the Tories, and a crushing 97% to 2% preference for leave among Ukip supporters. '

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 7:09 am

To make things clear, my criticisms of Brexiters is of people like Farage, the right wing Kippers flooding CIf, and people like my friend who is voting leave because, as a Green anarcho/syndicalist [as she describes herself] she thinks that the ensuing chaos will cause things to [she hopes] crumble and foment revolutionary change.

In the last few days particularly I have reviewed my decision to vote remain, a bit late in the day as my vote was posted last week. There are obviously genuine 'progressive' reasons to make that choice.
But in IMHO, the risks, and the mass of right wing support backing leave, render those arguments not workable. But other Labour people think differently, as they are perfectly entitled to.

We've had different views here and worked our way through it, even if it has been painful sometimes. I was hoping that RR would share more of her thinking, and share her decision, as it is intriguing to hear different ideas. And without being psycobabble-ish, maybe that feeling of being out of step is something you would need to get used to RR, if you decide for Brexit, and there are all the feelings around that to deal with.
I found it uncomfortable when I decided, after initially being very anti him, to vote for Corbyn.
It was like stepping across a line, very unsettling. I also realise that maybe it was further than I would now go, as I am not in agreement with 'vote Brexit to be a good socialist' line some on the left are arguing.

Yesterday, while sewing and with a quiet mind, I did seriously ponder whether my postal vote for remain was right. In the end I calmed myself in my usual simplistic way with 'would I want to vote in a way that helped Farage claim triumph ?'. That helped !

Also, thanks to all those who have posted and provided links on the referendum. From my own point of view, while struggling with health problems in the last few months, FTN is indeed a haven.

Hope this reads ok, it is meant in the spirit of friendship, not provocation.
But I haven't had my porridge yet !
I would miss RR, even in the short term.
Cameron has hoisted this on us, the binary choice makes it very difficult, we will be an even more divided country after whatever happens.
The lid's off Pandora's box, the right are flexing their muscles and aren't going to retire back to their armchairs post 24th June, whatever the outcome.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 8:35 am

Morning

I'm not sure this was linked last night.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... vote-right" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Obviously Polly Toynbee is for Remain, but I really highlight this because it's Polly's writing at its lucid best. The picture she paints of Margaret Hodge's drop-in is really very vivid. And for me very worrying.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 8:36 am

Good morfternoon.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 8:36 am

Dare I look?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 8:37 am

@yahyah

You said it so well.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 8:37 am

Phew apparently Patel was a shambles on Toady

Anyone hear it?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 8:40 am

Not sure,heard this indistinquishable screeching noise,I thought was interference,it might have been her.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 8:42 am

HindleA wrote:Not sure,heard this indistinquishable screeching noise,I thought was interference,it might have been her.

You must have been listening to something different. Priti Patel doesn't make a screeching noise.

She makes a screechin' noise.

Edited because it's early.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 8:44 am

Thanks PF. I was half asleep, having got up early because the builder was due to come to start prepping the exterior for painting. But he's just phoned to cancel because of the wet weather so I could have stayed in bed.

I did ponder the use of 'foment', as opposed to 'ferment'. They both seem to have the same meaning, apart from the microbiological implications of brewing. What's your view ?

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 8:45 am

Morning all.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 8:47 am

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Airlines criticised over payouts for damaged wheelchairs
Equality watchdog says carriers should cover full cost of damage to disabled passengers’ mobility devices

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 8:47 am

I sit corrected

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 8:50 am

yahyah wrote:Thanks PF. I was half asleep, having got up early because the builder was due to come to start prepping the exterior for painting. But he's just phoned to cancel because of the wet weather so I could have stayed in bed.

I did ponder the use of 'foment', as opposed to 'ferment'. They both seem to have the same meaning, apart from the microbiological implications of brewing. What's your view ?

Either, I think, is appropriate but "foment" (also, I think) is used in a situation where what is being fomented is always a bad thing. As in: you foment trouble but you can forment change (the latter not necessarily being a bad thing).

Edited

To remove an "is"

Edited again to add an "r" (I've bolded it where added) which might just make the whole thing make a bit more sense!

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 8:52 am

Morning.

Missed Priti Patel. A bit of a groggy start. Just heard Alan Johnson and wasn't impressed either. It is time for him and others to wake up and realise there *are* a lot of supposed Labour voters and supporters that aren't supporting Remain - just not good enough to try and waft it away. It matters to me that they start to engage on a more realistic basis with their voters (if they still are). For me it's not a reason for turning against Labour because I don't see this as a party issue - but I could understand why it might disengage others even further than they already are if they hear people talking like that.

I haven't read the Toynbee piece Paul. I'll have a look at it - but I'm guessing it will reflect back at me pretty much what I hear in some areas around here. There were almost no takers for the batch of In leaflets we were sent by HQ a few weeks ago - and few people wanted to get involved in active campaigning.

@those who responded to me yesterday and today - thanks for the nice responses. I don't feel specifically 'othered' by any one person. It's just that the weight and, sometimes, the tone of the comments here is a bit overwhelming. I've got enough inner something to know whether I'm a rabid Faragist or not - and I'm not. I'm experiencing a much more mixed conversation and views outside of FTN - so that helps.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 8:56 am

@PF

New dog is 'Mimi'. Something totally different to the sound of any of the other dogs' names and easy for us both to remember. She was called Dimitra - so we're hoping there's a little bit of the same sound there. And to begin with we're linking the new name with her old name so she's getting called Mimi Dimitra - bit of a mouthful but it's apparently what we're supposed to do to help her get it.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 8:59 am

I don't think anyone would be concerned that you have an inner-Faragist RR.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 9:18 am

yahyah wrote:I don't think anyone would be concerned that you have an inner-Faragist RR.

I have been drinking a bit of beer lately ... I put it down to the hot weather but maybe I've been Farangoed.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 9:19 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36526158?n ... ws_central" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

EU court rejects child benefits challenge

http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/jcms/Jo2_16799" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 9:29 am

HindleA wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36526158?n ... ws_central

EU court rejects child benefits challenge

http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/jcms/Jo2_16799" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not good news for Brexit.

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 9:41 am

Regarding Baker Small legal firm vs parents of children with special educational needs/disability (mentioned yesterday by HindleA and me). The Guardian's Amelia Gentleman was asking on Twitter yesterday for the parents concerned to contact her, so presumably she's going to cover the story. Good for her.

This blog gives a good summing up of what's been going on. https://bjpren.wordpress.com/2016/06/13/implosion/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So what actually happened on Saturday night? Well, this solicitor, who has contracts with multiple LAs to defend parents’ appeals, decided to publish a taunting post. Not only was he taunting, he may well have exposed who his target family were. Big data protection no-no. It seems that the solicitor was happy that a parent did not know their legal rights and waived away the support that the child should have had, support that the child was entitled to. Yes, that was the upshot. He was happy that a parent was not educated well enough in the law to secure the support that the LA had a duty to provide.

minch · Post by **minch** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 9:42 am

First of all apologies for not posting more often. FTN is always open on my PC but I guess I am never quite sure enough of my points to post.
But today a few observations.
1) It is great when all sides make points here. We have a place where ideas can be discussed with general good humour (even though they are believed passionately).
2) The press are making the in/out decision party political as regard to Labour but not for the Conservatives. This suits them as it allows them to blame Labour, as a party, whichever way the result goes. The decision is not party based: that is why (presumably) we have having a referendum.
3) Stop allowing the use of the word 'Control' to be interpreted as 'Reduce'.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 9:43 am

HindleA wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36526158?n ... ws_central

EU court rejects child benefits challenge

http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/jcms/Jo2_16799" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What does that actually mean in practice? Will it mean spouses and children have to come here if they want to receive these benefits? Or is it some nominal check to see if they have the right to reside here should they choose to ....? I'm not that clear from a quick read of the ruling.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 9:47 am

Hello folks!

This is my current thinking on the referendum - and, lovely Ms.Riots, this is not aimed at you or anyone else thinking of voting Leave - and I'm writing this down as it helps me to collect my thoughts into some semblance of order...

The entire performance is unnecessary, and we're only having it because Cameron decided to gamble his country and his party for his own ends.
Even though Crosby and the attack dogs (most probably) overspent on GE expenses, and the Tories gained seats in many marginals thanks to (in part) throwing cash at them, Cameron won only by a whisker and did not expect to be in sole charge.
He has been forced to U-turn on various unworkable policies; the ones already in place from his last term are failing across the board; and I think he seriously believed that he'd have to work with another party who he could blame for not holding a referendum - unluckily for him and us, we are now required to make a massive decision for the future of this country because he wanted to stay PM.

Both sides of this divide have good arguments. It's a shame that they are being drowned out by the nonsense being spouted by both campaigns.
There is Project Fear on both sides - if it isn't a collapsing economy from Remain, it's hordes of Turks from Leave. Whatever.

When I think about the Euro, and the problems in several Mediterranean countries especially Greece, I get annoyed about the EU. There is definitely a power bloc, with Merkel having way too much say IMHO; that needs to be much more balanced.

But - we are better off inside the tent, in my view. If we leave, we have no say. We will, whatever the arrangements turn out to be (ie. what we are allowed to do by the EU), still have to contribute if we want to trade and allow migration, as other countries do (eg. Norway)
As we already supply troops, police, civilian, intelligence, anti-terrorist, medical, and other staff to various countries/conflicts the EU is involved in, plus supply those same people to UN peacekeeping forces and Interpol, I'm not too fussed about an EU army. We're close to that now.

What concerns me most of all is that neither side appear to have anything approaching an exit plan should we vote to leave. When I look at Gove, Grayling, Patel, and IDS, I see ex-ministers who failed spectacularly in the last government; those in post now are still failing.
Johnson is in a category all of his own - I have no idea what he actually stands for, all I know is that he's a nasty piece of work.

I can't see the Cameron/Osborne combo lasting long if we leave, whatever Cameron says. And that is truly frightening.
If the UK doesn't have to protect human rights, provide social security, keep workers safe, etc. because being in the EU makes it, it won't.
The economic arguments on both sides are now so fogged with hyperbole and downright falsehood, I find it impossible to work out what the impact on jobs, housing, public services, education, etc. will actually be. Going it alone could leave this country open to the hard right - and that's my main concern. We could lose a lot more than our contribution to EU funds.

This whole thing is a massive mistake. We are voting for whatever we believe in purely because Cameron fancied a gamble and didn't think it through - UKIP is still there, and his backbenchers are still plotting his demise. Nothing has changed for him, really.

I'm voting in. Not because I think the EU is totally great, but because I am as sure as I can be that we as a nation are safer as part of the EU.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 9:48 am

Got to go to work now. Splatter gear on as it's mainly strimming. I will look utterly delectable in a few hours.

Then the car has its MOT. I could even resort to praying over that one ....

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 9:53 am

Grayling lied about Prof. Harrington's view on the WCA which led to a rollout for everyone as opposed to new applicants only. Wouldn't trust them as far as I could spit. However , Skinner is on the 'out' camp too . No wonder I'm still confused.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 9:57 am

ephemerid wrote: What concerns me most of all is that neither side appear to have anything approaching an exit plan should we vote to leave. When I look at Gove, Grayling, Patel, and IDS, I see ex-ministers who failed spectacularly in the last government; those in post now are still failing.
Johnson is in a category all of his own - I have no idea what he actually stands for, all I know is that he's a nasty piece of work.

I can't see the Cameron/Osborne combo lasting long if we leave, whatever Cameron says. And that is truly frightening.
If the UK doesn't have to protect human rights, provide social security, keep workers safe, etc. because being in the EU makes it, it won't.

It's truly frightening that getting rid of Cameron/Osborne is truly frightening. If you know what I mean.
I don't disagree at all.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 10:03 am

Been looking at some old pics of Shirebrook colliery earlier, the site is now the vast Sports Direct warehouse. You won,t find anyone in that town voting remain.It has had a knock on effect on Mansfield too, which as HA knows , Shirebrook is local (ish)to both of us .

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 10:06 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Morning

I'm not sure this was linked last night.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... vote-right" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Obviously Polly Toynbee is for Remain, but I really highlight this because it's Polly's writing at its lucid best. The picture she paints of Margaret Hodge's drop-in is really very vivid. And for me very worrying.

I don't usually read Polly T but I've made an exception this time on your recommendation.
It is well written.
I wish she hadn't written it, it's another part of the 'panic' narrative the media are feeding us. Self-fulfilling prophecy. Does she think she's helping?

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 10:07 am

Mining town turned into little Poland http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... oland.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 10:08 am

And in Mr.Skinner's constituency.

Maeght · Post by **Maeght** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 10:08 am

ephemerid wrote:Hello folks!

This is my current thinking on the referendum - and, lovely Ms.Riots, this is not aimed at you or anyone else thinking of voting Leave - and I'm writing this down as it helps me to collect my thoughts into some semblance of order...

The entire performance is unnecessary, and we're only having it because Cameron decided to gamble his country and his party for his own ends.
Even though Crosby and the attack dogs (most probably) overspent on GE expenses, and the Tories gained seats in many marginals thanks to (in part) throwing cash at them, Cameron won only by a whisker and did not expect to be in sole charge.
He has been forced to U-turn on various unworkable policies; the ones already in place from his last term are failing across the board; and I think he seriously believed that he'd have to work with another party who he could blame for not holding a referendum - unluckily for him and us, we are now required to make a massive decision for the future of this country because he wanted to stay PM.

Both sides of this divide have good arguments. It's a shame that they are being drowned out by the nonsense being spouted by both campaigns.
There is Project Fear on both sides - if it isn't a collapsing economy from Remain, it's hordes of Turks from Leave. Whatever.

When I think about the Euro, and the problems in several Mediterranean countries especially Greece, I get annoyed about the EU. There is definitely a power bloc, with Merkel having way too much say IMHO; that needs to be much more balanced.

But - we are better off inside the tent, in my view. If we leave, we have no say. We will, whatever the arrangements turn out to be (ie. what we are allowed to do by the EU), still have to contribute if we want to trade and allow migration, as other countries do (eg. Norway)
As we already supply troops, police, civilian, intelligence, anti-terrorist, medical, and other staff to various countries/conflicts the EU is involved in, plus supply those same people to UN peacekeeping forces and Interpol, I'm not too fussed about an EU army. We're close to that now.

What concerns me most of all is that neither side appear to have anything approaching an exit plan should we vote to leave. When I look at Gove, Grayling, Patel, and IDS, I see ex-ministers who failed spectacularly in the last government; those in post now are still failing.
Johnson is in a category all of his own - I have no idea what he actually stands for, all I know is that he's a nasty piece of work.

I can't see the Cameron/Osborne combo lasting long if we leave, whatever Cameron says. And that is truly frightening.
If the UK doesn't have to protect human rights, provide social security, keep workers safe, etc. because being in the EU makes it, it won't.
The economic arguments on both sides are now so fogged with hyperbole and downright falsehood, I find it impossible to work out what the impact on jobs, housing, public services, education, etc. will actually be. Going it alone could leave this country open to the hard right - and that's my main concern. We could lose a lot more than our contribution to EU funds.

This whole thing is a massive mistake. We are voting for whatever we believe in purely because Cameron fancied a gamble and didn't think it through - UKIP is still there, and his backbenchers are still plotting his demise. Nothing has changed for him, really.

I'm voting in. Not because I think the EU is totally great, but because I am as sure as I can be that we as a nation are safer as part of the EU.

I agree with you, particularly your line about Greece and Germany having too much say - and I say this as a lifelong Germanophile- and your last line.

I have read 3 articles this morning which I thought were good.

Richard Murphy, practical as ever. His post is called: What if the UK votes Brexit. http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016 ... es-brexit/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Simon Wren-Lewis. How to avoid Brexit, with a good bit about immigration. https://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2016 ... ainlyMacro+(mainly+macro" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

Michael Sandal in an interview in the New Statesman: The energy of the Brexiteers and Trump is born of the failure of the Elites. Really struck a chord with me about the 'death' of social democracy.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk ... ure-elites" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 10:12 am

gilsey wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Morning

I'm not sure this was linked last night.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... vote-right" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Obviously Polly Toynbee is for Remain, but I really highlight this because it's Polly's writing at its lucid best. The picture she paints of Margaret Hodge's drop-in is really very vivid. And for me very worrying.
I don't usually read Polly T but I've made an exception this time on your recommendation.
It is well written.
I wish she hadn't written it, it's another part of the 'panic' narrative the media are feeding us. Self-fulfilling prophecy. Does she think she's helping?

You're right - it made me panic!

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 10:12 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:Got to go to work now. Splatter gear on as it's mainly strimming. I will look utterly delectable in a few hours.

Then the car has its MOT. I could even resort to praying over that one ....

A year already! It doesn't seem more than a few months ago, you wrote you were scraping moss off to tart it up for its MOT.

I did ours last weekend.

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 10:15 am

ephemerid wrote:Hello folks!

This is my current thinking on the referendum - and, lovely Ms.Riots, this is not aimed at you or anyone else thinking of voting Leave - and I'm writing this down as it helps me to collect my thoughts into some semblance of order...

The entire performance is unnecessary, and we're only having it because Cameron decided to gamble his country and his party for his own ends.
Even though Crosby and the attack dogs (most probably) overspent on GE expenses, and the Tories gained seats in many marginals thanks to (in part) throwing cash at them, Cameron won only by a whisker and did not expect to be in sole charge.
He has been forced to U-turn on various unworkable policies; the ones already in place from his last term are failing across the board; and I think he seriously believed that he'd have to work with another party who he could blame for not holding a referendum - unluckily for him and us, we are now required to make a massive decision for the future of this country because he wanted to stay PM.

Both sides of this divide have good arguments. It's a shame that they are being drowned out by the nonsense being spouted by both campaigns.
There is Project Fear on both sides - if it isn't a collapsing economy from Remain, it's hordes of Turks from Leave. Whatever.

When I think about the Euro, and the problems in several Mediterranean countries especially Greece, I get annoyed about the EU. There is definitely a power bloc, with Merkel having way too much say IMHO; that needs to be much more balanced.

But - we are better off inside the tent, in my view. If we leave, we have no say. We will, whatever the arrangements turn out to be (ie. what we are allowed to do by the EU), still have to contribute if we want to trade and allow migration, as other countries do (eg. Norway)
As we already supply troops, police, civilian, intelligence, anti-terrorist, medical, and other staff to various countries/conflicts the EU is involved in, plus supply those same people to UN peacekeeping forces and Interpol, I'm not too fussed about an EU army. We're close to that now.

What concerns me most of all is that neither side appear to have anything approaching an exit plan should we vote to leave. When I look at Gove, Grayling, Patel, and IDS, I see ex-ministers who failed spectacularly in the last government; those in post now are still failing.
Johnson is in a category all of his own - I have no idea what he actually stands for, all I know is that he's a nasty piece of work.

I can't see the Cameron/Osborne combo lasting long if we leave, whatever Cameron says. And that is truly frightening.
If the UK doesn't have to protect human rights, provide social security, keep workers safe, etc. because being in the EU makes it, it won't.
The economic arguments on both sides are now so fogged with hyperbole and downright falsehood, I find it impossible to work out what the impact on jobs, housing, public services, education, etc. will actually be. Going it alone could leave this country open to the hard right - and that's my main concern. We could lose a lot more than our contribution to EU funds.

This whole thing is a massive mistake. We are voting for whatever we believe in purely because Cameron fancied a gamble and didn't think it through - UKIP is still there, and his backbenchers are still plotting his demise. Nothing has changed for him, really.

I'm voting in. Not because I think the EU is totally great, but because I am as sure as I can be that we as a nation are safer as part of the EU.

Agree with all that, excellent summary. I'll be voting in as well, despite the fact that the EU is flawed. It's the least awful option in the face of unfettered Tory lunacy.

Cameron is mainly worried about the City losing its status as Europe's financial centre - and City financiers own him and his party. But of course he never thought he'd have to carry out his empty promise of a Referendum. Gove's former aide Dominic Cummings commented before the election that Cameron was cynically banking on having some excuse to avoid keeping the promise.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 10:24 am

nickyinnorfolk wrote: the least awful option in the face of unfettered Tory lunacy.

That's probably the best remain slogan I've seen.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 10:34 am

Maeght wrote:I have read 3 articles this morning which I thought were good.

Richard Murphy, practical as ever. His post is called: What if the UK votes Brexit. http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016 ... es-brexit/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Simon Wren-Lewis. How to avoid Brexit, with a good bit about immigration. https://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2016 ... ainlyMacro+(mainly+macro" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

Michael Sandal in an interview in the New Statesman: The energy of the Brexiteers and Trump is born of the failure of the Elites. Really struck a chord with me about the 'death' of social democracy.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk ... ure-elites" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think Richard Murphy has nailed it there.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 10:40 am

Great comment btl on the Murphy piece.

Laurence says:
June 14 2016 at 9:53 am
I am strongly in favour of Remain.

The question I would like to float is, would you rather see a 51:49 Remain vote, or a Brexit win?

My fear is that a slight remain win will see a wave of anti-immigrant, extreme right wing backlash – a similar phenomena, although a fundamentally different perspective, to the voting after the Scottish referendum. There the losing side obtained a wave of populist support – many on this site will suggest its because of a radical left wing agenda. I believe that in part at least, it was people reacting to what in their heart they wanted, though their head said something different.

With a Brexit win, we will at least know what we are dealing with – and it may be that we do end up with a more left wing UK government than we do at present. How they deal with the mess that is left, may be a more difficult question.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 10:43 am

gilsey wrote:
Maeght wrote:I have read 3 articles this morning which I thought were good.

Richard Murphy, practical as ever. His post is called: What if the UK votes Brexit. http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016 ... es-brexit/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Simon Wren-Lewis. How to avoid Brexit, with a good bit about immigration. https://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2016 ... ainlyMacro+(mainly+macro" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

Michael Sandal in an interview in the New Statesman: The energy of the Brexiteers and Trump is born of the failure of the Elites. Really struck a chord with me about the 'death' of social democracy.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk ... ure-elites" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I think Richard Murphy has nailed it there.

Indeed. If ever there was a cribsheet for interview prepping that'd be it.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 11:11 am

gilsey wrote:
Maeght wrote:I have read 3 articles this morning which I thought were good.

Richard Murphy, practical as ever. His post is called: What if the UK votes Brexit. http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016 ... es-brexit/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Simon Wren-Lewis. How to avoid Brexit, with a good bit about immigration. https://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2016 ... ainlyMacro+(mainly+macro" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

Michael Sandal in an interview in the New Statesman: The energy of the Brexiteers and Trump is born of the failure of the Elites. Really struck a chord with me about the 'death' of social democracy.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk ... ure-elites" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I think Richard Murphy has nailed it there.

Very good links. Thank you. I've read two, just about to start on the third.

My reaction so far? Christ what a mess!

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 11:12 am

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Labour supporters backing Brexit in Stoke-on-Trent heartland – video

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 11:15 am

ohsocynical wrote:
gilsey wrote:
Maeght wrote:I have read 3 articles this morning which I thought were good.

Richard Murphy, practical as ever. His post is called: What if the UK votes Brexit. http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016 ... es-brexit/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Simon Wren-Lewis. How to avoid Brexit, with a good bit about immigration. https://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2016 ... ainlyMacro+(mainly+macro" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

Michael Sandal in an interview in the New Statesman: The energy of the Brexiteers and Trump is born of the failure of the Elites. Really struck a chord with me about the 'death' of social democracy.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk ... ure-elites" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I think Richard Murphy has nailed it there.
Very good links. Thank you. I've read two, just about to start on the third.

My reaction so far? Christ what a mess!

And this BTL comment on Richard Murphy's article struck a chord

>>>>The failure of North American capitalism (illustrated by the significant reduction in the middle class) means that fewer people in the US can now afford healthcare and education whilst wages continue to drop.

Having hollowed out (or in the process of completing that hollowing out) their own economy, the Americans (whom I concede have always been here) need to expand into other markets because of declining growth in profits at home.

Boris, Gove and their ilk will simply become highly paid custodians of American interests in the UK.

So yes – the Americans have always been here – but this time it is different – driven by neo-lib blindness to the causes of the bottom line. And as the EU fragments – which it could – there will loads of sub-Pinochet type politicians in Europe happy to accept the American dollar one by one.

Plan A was corporate America’s idea to use the EU to get access to our markets and public services.

I bet you they have a Plan B for BREXIT and EU collapse – no problem.

I hope I’m wrong. But that is what I see.<<<<<

Out of the frying pan, into the fire Gawd!

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 11:19 am

Stupid David Cameron.

Stupid referendum.

Our NHS and social care system is currently collapsing. Not so much from lack of money (though that's clearly a large part of it) but mostly from lack of care and attention. A growing elderly population is creating new and urgent pressures that is rapidly turning into a full blown crisis, but our government isn't responding at all. They immediately dumped their proposals for funding elderly care on being elected and have done nothing since. Labour should be challenging them over their woeful record, not winning a referendum for them which Ed Miliband was at pains to point out this country really doesn't need at this time. In amongst all the other arguments for remain is this one - stick with the status quo and our government will no longer have an excuse not to govern and tackle our country's growing problems. The chaos of leaving will only provide more distractions from Cameron's woeful domestic record and provide handy cover for Osborne's failing economic policy. We need to put the EU squirrel behind us if we are to have any chance of exposing the lie behind austerity and convince the electorate there is a better way.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 11:26 am

HindleA wrote:

The Labour supporters backing Brexit in Stoke-on-Trent heartland – video

It's like that here in Mansfield too HA, I've met lots of ppl whilst in hospital, nurses, carers, domestic staff, etc. One of the carers looking after me was the Unison rep. Other patients as well who I spoke to occaisionally , I found a large majority who were brexiteers, or more frightning - ex Labour voters now fully fledged Kippers.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 11:29 am

Johnson and Patel v Salmond and Kendall tonight, anyone watching it?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 11:31 am

: Poster from Operation Black Vote recreating a Bullingdon image Photo Operation Black Vote.jpg (51.06 KiB) Viewed 7968 times

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 11:32 am

Good-morning, everyone.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 11:32 am

TobyL -Tory +UKIP vote here,far outweighed the Labour vote last time,it is a marginal with the Tories very close (NE Derbyshire constituency);2010 boundary changes.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 11:42 am

Operation Black Vote’s work covers four main areas:

Political education: This aims to raise awareness and understanding of democratic and civic society through
citizenship projects.

Political participation: This aims to improve engagement with civic society through local and national voter
registration and other civic participation campaigns.

Political representation: This aims to increase political representation of Black and minority ethnic communities,
through encouraging engagement; undertaking ground-breaking mentoring schemes; lobbying political parties
and civic institutions on the benefits of representative bodies.

Promotion of equality and human rights: increasing the awareness of a progressive equality and human rights
agenda.

OBV however, never forgets that the most effective campaigning is through personal interactions. That means traveling
around the UK, visiting schools and colleges, holding big and small meetings that mobilises individuals and communities
to be part of the change process.

https://www.obv.org.uk/

It's not clear to me yet if this organisation has an official position on whether or not to vote LEAVE or REMAIN. I'm okay with that.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 11:46 am

TobyLatimer wrote:
HindleA wrote:

The Labour supporters backing Brexit in Stoke-on-Trent heartland – video
It's like that here in Mansfield too HA, I've met lots of ppl whilst in hospital, nurses, carers, domestic staff, etc. One of the carers looking after me was the Unison rep. Other patients as well who I spoke to occaisionally , I found a large majority who were brexiteers, or more frightning - ex Labour voters now fully fledged Kippers.

News to me. Our CLP's position in Stoke is Remain.