Tuesday 14th June 2016

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 5:11 pm

StephenDolan wrote:
yahyah wrote:
Maeght wrote:On the politics live blog at the Guardian there have been- up to now - 12,903 comments. This must be a record. Wonder how many were sensible. Have only looked a a few pages and only found one or two.

Mine aren't. I just keep responding to the idiots.

The worst of it is the arrogance, the assumption that they have won.
It isn't over until the vote is cast. The Nats thought they were likely heading for independence at the end, they lost by over 10 points.

But to be honest I am not sure. People like backing the winner, and if people are undecided they may want to be one of the ones partying and enjoying a pint with Farage on the 24th.
I don't know. The GE showed how voting based on preconceptions of the outcome can (funnily enough) change the outcome.

Yes, exactly. The thousands of posts like an artillery barrage - regular people get put off by in-your-face garbage posted repeatedly. Trying to get people to not bother showing up to vote.

Maeght · Post by **Maeght** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 5:13 pm

StephenDolan wrote:
Maeght wrote:On the politics live blog at the Guardian there have been- up to now - 12,903 comments. This must be a record. Wonder how many were sensible. Have only looked a a few pages and only found one or two.
I'm sure I commented more than twice.

I think I clicked on you twice

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 5:13 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:Somebody needs to flag up the trade war that Brexiters are happily leading us into.

Then again lots of people fall for "they want to sell us cars"
It's a good job that's all we buy from within EU otherwise we'd be in trouble....
We'll buy our own cars!

The ones with EU parts in them.

Trouble is that as soon as we vote to exit, people will worry about the future, worry about a recession, put off big spending decisions...and then...

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 5:19 pm

I see the idiot Gove a couple of months ago said we could sit in the EU blocking everything till they gave us what we wanted.

He hadn't noticed Qualified Majority Voting.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 5:25 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
StephenDolan wrote: It's a good job that's all we buy from within EU otherwise we'd be in trouble....
We'll buy our own cars!

The ones with EU parts in them.
Trouble is that as soon as we vote to exit, people will worry about the future, worry about a recession, put off big spending decisions...and then...

Lucky business investment and net trade have driven growth lately.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 5:26 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:I see the idiot Gove a couple of months ago said we could sit in the EU blocking everything till they gave us what we wanted.

He hadn't noticed Qualified Majority Voting.

Apparently some people think he'd make an excellent PM!

Time to give this an airing again...

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 5:39 pm

Off topic, but some seriously weird hairdos in the Euro football.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 5:42 pm

The Belgians had a few horrors.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 5:44 pm

Think there is a prize and a sponsorship on offer for the best one according to FIFA haircut point system.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 5:48 pm

Golden Globe up for offer for glabrescency(probably made up word)

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 5:54 pm

Thoughts are with my mum who hates football,my dad always says he hardly watches it but coincidently always on when I 'phone/visit.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 5:57 pm

I watch some on TV but with Radio commentary via kindle,there is a time delay so I have to "match up" sound and vision.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 5:57 pm

So, if it's Leave, there is a two year wait for it to swing into effect?
Now that's going to be interesting if the Tory party goes into meltdown and things get progressively worse. Voters are usually impatient, and if they vote for change want it there and then.

Will UKIP MPs, drag out negotiations to keep themselves in well paying jobs?

What if the country during that two years realises it's made a mistake? Can that two years be used as a cooling off period?

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 5:59 pm

My brother was born and raised in England and left for the US with his wife when they were about 25.
They are now unquestionably Americans.

I have faith that they're Democrats, but not so much faith that I dare ask.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 6:04 pm

yahyah wrote:I obviously have a dictatorial streak. If it were up to me the 65% who haven't been arsed to vote in EU MEP elections would not be allowed to vote on the 23rd.
All that whining about it not being democratic and they haven't bothered to take part in democracy.

What about the ones who vote for people that they know aren't going to turn up? Worse, imo.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 6:06 pm

ohsocynical wrote:So, if it's Leave, there is a two year wait for it to swing into effect?

What if the country during that two years realises it's made a mistake? Can that two years be used as a cooling off period?

I don't think early next year we get to say to the EU, "April Fool!" - if that's what you mean.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 6:10 pm

I least it will be still be called April,or something like that.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 6:12 pm

HindleA wrote:I least it will be still be called April,or something like that.

It'll probably be 'Month of the Thousand Flowering Farages' under the new British Lion Roars again calendar year 0000.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 6:12 pm

Should be a don't know/neither option,interesting if that "won"

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 6:15 pm

gilsey wrote:My brother was born and raised in England and left for the US with his wife when they were about 25.
They are now unquestionably Americans.

I have faith that they're Democrats, but not so much faith that I dare ask.

Oh God. Don't ask.

Mr Ohso is American, but our daughter was born here. Is/was as English as bread and butter. Has lived in the States since 1989. Is American through and through now, although I'll never understand how you can just throw off your first 24 years of your birth country. She is disgracefully right wing. She married an American who is so far to the right I can't bring myself to write or talk to him.

Thank the Lord Mr Ohso isn't that way. We'd never have stayed married.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 6:16 pm

Hedgehogs continue to disappear from British gardens, wildlife survey shows (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... rvey-shows

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 6:17 pm

Ah,confirms what I thought,I miss them.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 6:18 pm

HindleA wrote:Should be a don't know/neither option,interesting if that "won"

That's the one that would get my vote.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 6:54 pm

yahyah wrote:
HindleA wrote:I least it will be still be called April,or something like that.

It'll probably be 'Month of the Thousand Flowering Farages' under the new British Lion Roars again calendar year 0000.

The second dark age?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 6:56 pm

gilsey wrote:My brother was born and raised in England and left for the US with his wife when they were about 25.
They are now unquestionably Americans.

I have faith that they're Democrats, but not so much faith that I dare ask.

Americans are great, I'm sure they're lovely, many Americans are.

The US Democrats don't have the beautiful history of the UK Labour party. It's not the fault of current US Democrats. There's nothing
anyone can do about history but learn from it.

The US has spectacularly failed people by not implementing an affordable, national healthcare system. All due to allowing business
interests to influence bad social policy so a few can make money. Shameful. It could be done but it's not. A choice made.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 6:59 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... ty-grounds" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

North Middlesex hospital A&E faces closure on safety grounds
Exclusive: Move would be first in NHS history, as internal documents seen by the Guardian show junior staff often left in charge of casualty unit

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 7:04 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
gilsey wrote:My brother was born and raised in England and left for the US with his wife when they were about 25.
They are now unquestionably Americans.

I have faith that they're Democrats, but not so much faith that I dare ask.
Oh God. Don't ask.

Mr Ohso is American, but our daughter was born here. Is/was as English as bread and butter. Has lived in the States since 1989. Is American through and through now, although I'll never understand how you can just throw off your first 24 years of your birth country. She is disgracefully right wing. She married an American who is so far to the right I can't bring myself to write or talk to him.

Thank the Lord Mr Ohso isn't that way. We'd never have stayed married.

My elder sister is politically far-right. Texas. Certified Public Accountant (CPA). Christian fundamentalist, last I heard.
Siblings differing a great deal is a regular thing occurring in families. Doesn't always work out like that but it's not rare.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 7:11 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
yahyah wrote:
HindleA wrote:I least it will be still be called April,or something like that.
It'll probably be 'Month of the Thousand Flowering Farages' under the new British Lion Roars again calendar year 0000.
The second dark age?

Brilliant, yahyah! 'British Lion Roars again calendar year 0000'
Christ - I've been having a read through the Great Leap Forward in China and other tales of repressive, fascist dictatorships. It's not funny.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 7:15 pm

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liv ... e-11474014" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Legal fees for suspended South Yorkshire Police chief constable David Crompton exceeded £2m

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 7:32 pm

HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... ty-grounds

North Middlesex hospital A&E faces closure on safety grounds
Exclusive: Move would be first in NHS history, as internal documents seen by the Guardian show junior staff often left in charge of casualty unit

Mid Staffs!

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 7:32 pm

Patrick Wintour ‏@patrickwintour 13m13 minutes ago
Ignoring immigration doesn’t work. Here are five reforms remain can sign up to | Yvette Cooper
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's already rather bloody BTL.

I welcome her addressing the issue head on though.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 7:35 pm

Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 6m6 minutes ago
Wouldn't a dead heat be wonderful? There's no provision, I understand, for a national recount

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 7:38 pm

This morning I received personally addressed "Official information about the referendum on 23 June 2016". It consists of the usual lies and half-truths peddled by Brexit. (Cost £350M/week; the EU is expanding to include Turkey; EU law overrules Scottish law etc etc).

What really got up my nose was the (very) small print at the bottom:

The information you supply will always be handled securely and in compliance with the UK Data Protection Act 1998 and all other relevant legislation. Your personal data may be shared within the campaign, and with organisations and partners with which we have a strategic relationship for the campaign, or which perform work for our campaign, so that we can keep you informed. Your data may be held on servers outside the EEA. For clarity, personal data will never be rented or sold to others, nor passed to any registered political party. Promoted by Matthew Elliott on behalf of Vote Leave Ltd, both of 3 Albert Embankment SE1 7SP.

Although I hadn't contacted them, or supplied any information, it seems they are happy to obtain it elsewhere and spread it around their 'campaign'.

I have written back to them to request that my data be deleted and not shared with anyone - and I would advise anybody else to do the same. (Edited to add that I put a couple of 1979 'First election of European Parliament' commemorative stamps on the envelope. Childish - I know, but satisfying)!

The final paragraph of the leaflet states:

Imagine the vote on 23 June is whether we should join the EU - with the Euro crisis, the migration crisis, and new countries like Turkey and Serbia being lined up as member states would you vote to join the European Union? If not, vote leave.

While I accept that there are pros and cons to staying or leaving, the Brexit campaign seems to be based on the premise that we can just pretend that the last 40+ years didn't happen!

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 7:43 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... ty-grounds

North Middlesex hospital A&E faces closure on safety grounds
Exclusive: Move would be first in NHS history, as internal documents seen by the Guardian show junior staff often left in charge of casualty unit
Mid Staffs!

No, no it's different now - it's the NHS's fault. can't possibly blame the government!

I think the shift of who's fault it all is changed around 2010.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 7:46 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... ty-grounds

North Middlesex hospital A&E faces closure on safety grounds
Exclusive: Move would be first in NHS history, as internal documents seen by the Guardian show junior staff often left in charge of casualty unit
Mid Staffs!
No, no it's different now - it's the NHS's fault. can't possibly blame the government!

I think the shift of who's fault it all is changed around 2010.

Labour were still getting blamed for poor performance in 2013, I think.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 7:49 pm

citizenJA wrote:
gilsey wrote:My brother was born and raised in England and left for the US with his wife when they were about 25.
They are now unquestionably Americans.

I have faith that they're Democrats, but not so much faith that I dare ask.
Americans are great, I'm sure they're lovely, many Americans are.

The US Democrats don't have the beautiful history of the UK Labour party. It's not the fault of current US Democrats. There's nothing
anyone can do about history but learn from it.

The US has spectacularly failed people by not implementing an affordable, national healthcare system. All due to allowing business
interests to influence bad social policy so a few can make money. Shameful. It could be done but it's not. A choice made.

Agree with you about big business, but I constantly read and hear them say, 'I work hard, why should money I'd contribute for myself and my family help pay for lazy bums who don't want to work?'. Lazy bums seems to cover the whole range of those who aren't working.
Daft we know, because a universal system works out a lot cheaper than private insurance, but it's a very prevalent attitude.
I've gone blue in the face trying to explain how it benefits everyone, even tried to convert a doctors wife who is a relative of Mr Ohso's, but they don't seem to want to get it.

Horrible to see it being echoed over here now.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 7:56 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Patrick Wintour ‏@patrickwintour 13m13 minutes ago
Ignoring immigration doesn’t work. Here are five reforms remain can sign up to | Yvette Cooper
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It's already rather bloody BTL.

I welcome her addressing the issue head on though.

Not too bad an effort on Yvette Cooper's part (employment rules and migration impact fund) - but I was (pettily) annoyed by her adoption of the much-loved rolling-up of the sleeves thing.

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 8:07 pm

Apologies in advance to anyone who is deeply religious but this really is beyond the pale:

Independence campaigners say they have been instructed by Jesus to remain camped outside the Scottish Parliament.

Campaigner Richard McFarlane told the Court of Session on Tuesday that he had spoken to Jesus personally.
He told judge Lord Turnbull that Jesus also told them the indie camp wants the Stone of Destiny.
The court heard how the stone would be used in a “Coronation” ceremony for Christ.
Mr McFarlane said: “We have spoken to Jesus who is here for his second coming and he would like you to stop this if you can please.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/independen ... -1-4154434

...and they wonder why

Mr McFarlane also told the court that he and his fellow campaigners contacted 144 lawyers to see whether they would take their case.
The court heard that every one of the lawyers told them that they were unable to act for them.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 8:08 pm

Focusing on immigration from the EU is hopelessly simplistic

- Heidi Alexander
Labour MP - Lewisham East
Shadow Secretary of State for Health

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... -geography" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I confess. I’m a geographer with a geeky interest in demographics. I’ve been thinking about this a lot in the last few weeks.
Why? Because the EU referendum debate has left me feeling that the leave campaigners could urgently do with a crash course
in GCSE geography, with an hour of 20th century history thrown in.

Positive article. I liked it. I've not taken a look at the comments yet. I may have to wait until the morrow. It's been an emotional, busy day.
I'm interested in demographics too.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 8:14 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
gilsey wrote:My brother was born and raised in England and left for the US with his wife when they were about 25.
They are now unquestionably Americans.

I have faith that they're Democrats, but not so much faith that I dare ask.
Americans are great, I'm sure they're lovely, many Americans are.

The US Democrats don't have the beautiful history of the UK Labour party. It's not the fault of current US Democrats. There's nothing
anyone can do about history but learn from it.

The US has spectacularly failed people by not implementing an affordable, national healthcare system. All due to allowing business
interests to influence bad social policy so a few can make money. Shameful. It could be done but it's not. A choice made.
Agree with you about big business, but I constantly read and hear them say, 'I work hard, why should money I'd contribute for myself and my family help pay for lazy bums who don't want to work?'. Lazy bums seems to cover the whole range of those who aren't working.
Daft we know, because a universal system works out a lot cheaper than private insurance, but it's a very prevalent attitude.
I've gone blue in the face trying to explain how it benefits everyone, even tried to convert a doctors wife who is a relative of Mr Ohso's, but they don't seem to want to get it.

Horrible to see it being echoed over here now.

There's a lot of money to be made teaching people national healthcare systems are communist nonsense supported by insatiable
freebooters using up all the healthcare working people won't get because the healthcare is all gone now... or, something...

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 8:18 pm

Leave.eu’s cartoon is not just racist – it’s worse than that
- Andrew Brown

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... itism-1945" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nearly a thousand comments in four hours, now comments closed. Brown's article is excellent.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 8:27 pm

Paul Mason ‏@paulmasonnews 56m56 minutes ago
Remain and Renegotiate! Labour should make a radical new offer on EU migration.

Remain and Renegotiate! How to stop the Brexit bandwagon
Labour needs an urgent new offer on EU migration
Three Labour figures — Tom Watson, Ed Balls and Tristram Hunt — have, in the past 24 hours, called for a revision to the EU free movement rules. This needs to be translated into an immediate offer aimed at swinging the referendum for Remain. Labour has to explicitly embrace renegotiation of the EU Treaty...
https://medium.com/mosquito-ridge/remai ... .7e6j42gal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He's putting forward lots of specific proposals - with the aim of rebuilding a consent for immigration. It's well worth reading. Thank goodness someone is prepared to be more strident / brave with their ideas.

The big IF obstacle however is that if Cameron couldn't get anywhere with his poxy renegotiation prior to a referendum - what chance, if any, is there of something ltogether more radical getting any kind of look in post referendum?

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 8:29 pm

citizenJA wrote:
Leave.eu’s cartoon is not just racist – it’s worse than that
- Andrew Brown

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... itism-1945" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nearly a thousand comments in four hours, now comments closed. Brown's article is excellent.

I haven't read more than a handful of them but it's depressing to see how many seem to think that vile, extreme racism of a kind that disfigure society is perfectly acceptable under the banner of free speech.

We are not just slipping backwards, we are spiralling backwards, like water into a plughole.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 8:41 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... P=soc_3156" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Martin Rowson on the EU referendum – cartoon

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 8:43 pm

Pies-aaaaaaaaarghhh

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 8:43 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Paul Mason ‏@paulmasonnews 56m56 minutes ago
Remain and Renegotiate! Labour should make a radical new offer on EU migration.

Remain and Renegotiate! How to stop the Brexit bandwagon
Labour needs an urgent new offer on EU migration
Three Labour figures — Tom Watson, Ed Balls and Tristram Hunt — have, in the past 24 hours, called for a revision to the EU free movement rules. This needs to be translated into an immediate offer aimed at swinging the referendum for Remain. Labour has to explicitly embrace renegotiation of the EU Treaty...
https://medium.com/mosquito-ridge/remai ... .7e6j42gal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
He's putting forward lots of specific proposals - with the aim of rebuilding a consent for immigration. It's well worth reading. Thank goodness someone is prepared to be more strident / brave with their ideas.

The big IF obstacle however is that if Cameron couldn't get anywhere with his poxy renegotiation prior to a referendum - what chance, if any, is there of something ltogether more radical getting any kind of look in post referendum?

We have to remember that Dave is useless, and couldn't argue his way out of a paper bag. His reputation in the EU is a joke, and UKIP MEPs can't be arsed to fight for us because they don't believe in the EU.
If we'd had a decent leader with an ounce of intelligence and less of UKIP's presence, I've no doubt relations between us and the EU might be a lot better.

This government has turned down help for food banks, and help with flooding. I dare say there are other things that we've missed out on due to cynical Tories.
We never see the benefits from belonging because the press is basically anti and that's because our media barons don't want EU interference on tax breaks, and dodging. France's example making Google cough up, is a prime example.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 8:50 pm

HindleA wrote:Pies-aaaaaaaaarghhh

And none of them wrapped ... definitely the stuff of nightmares for you HindleA.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 8:59 pm

https://www.gov.uk/government/policies/european-funds" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

European Funds

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 9:05 pm

Mr Pooter ‏@doan1935 21m21 minutes ago

#euref great immigration debate on BBC 2 tonight at 9

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 9:07 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
HindleA wrote:Pies-aaaaaaaaarghhh
And none of them wrapped ... definitely the stuff of nightmares for you HindleA.

I think A's safe. Priti's pies are full of hot air...