Thursday 15th.Jun 2016

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 6:18 pm

Tom Holland ‏@holland_tom 4m4 minutes ago Lambeth, London
Admirers of @twlldun's witty & acerbic tweets on UK politics will find this all the more sobering coming from him:

I’m sitting on my bus home red-eyed. Most of the people on it don’t seem aware of what has happened today – tired workers on the way home, families back from a day out.
This isn’t meant to a hot take. I’m not trying to make any political capital. I’m not trying to be pious or superior...
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 6:18 pm

That training camp is the first one they've held, and within the last week it looks like.

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Yes, I know that we do not yet know whether Mair was associated with BF, his subscription seems to have been to things like The Patriot.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 6:21 pm

Night all. Let's hope tomorrow brings less bleakness.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 6:21 pm

Massive storm right overhead with heavy rain and hailstones.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 6:22 pm

yahyah wrote:Night all. Let's hope tomorrow brings less bleakness.

Goodnight, yahyah.
love,
j

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 6:26 pm

@yahyah

Night night.

Post by **refitman** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 6:29 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Massive storm right overhead with heavy rain and hailstones.

You're not in Lyon are you? They had to suspend the Ukraine/N Ireland match for 5 mins because of hail.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 6:29 pm

Lost for words almost. Feel so very sorry for her family.

By coincidence I was talking to Mike Gapes about the attack on Stephen Timms because I happened to be sat next to our local MP at the school production of Oliver Twist this afternoon. He made the same point that's been made by others - that MPs are open to all of their constituents and don't want to have to hide themselves away. One of the risks of the job.

And we had such a great time too watching all of our kids who get on so well no matter where they come from performing with such enthusiasm...seems a long time ago now...

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 6:33 pm

Someone I don't feel sorry for is the nasty little prick who decided to use this tragedy to have a dig at people he quite clearly holds a long-standing grudge against for no apparent reason.

Shameful. Utterly shameful.

TR'sGhost · Post by **TR'sGhost** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 6:34 pm

yahyah wrote:Shout at me, Axelrod style, but am posting this from the Western Mail the other day.

It spooked me at the time...

Britain First have been holding an 'activist training camp' in the Welsh mountains.
One of the things they learnt was 'knife defence', along with 'self defence', martial arts and survival skills.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales ... t-11474970" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They offered Farage a personal "trained ex-military security detail complete with armoured vehicles" a year or two ago. By which they meant a few possibly ex-army bonebrains and an army surplus armoured Land Rover or two. Not seriously armoured, the photos I've seen are of one of the plastic topped Defenders the army and RAF regiment use. The "armour" is tougher than nothing, but not much.

After some initial confusion over whether this was a good thing or not, the Faragistes eventually got their line sorted out and settled for "it's not his fault he's popular, and he can't stop people trying to ride his bandwagon".

BF slogan - "UKIP through the ballot box, Brittun Furst on the streets."

The BNP was running training camps in Wales long before BF started, and the NF before them. One of the consequences was John Tyndall getting prison time necause uniformed paramilitary gangs are illegal in the UK. Griffin, who at one time was quite close to members of the party responsivle for the Bologna railway station bombing (the original "third positionists") also fell foul of the same law later.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 6:44 pm

The Guardian view on Jo Cox: an attack on humanity, idealism and democracy
Editorial

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... -democracy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 6:48 pm

http://www.itv.com/news/2016-06-16/jo-c ... -politics/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Jo Cox 'was a force for good in politics'

Chris Ship

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 6:51 pm

This from Alex Massie is well worth a read. Use Chrome Incognito if you can't see the whole thing.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/a-day-of-infamy/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, no, Nigel Farage isn’t responsible for Jo Cox’s murder. And nor is the Leave campaign. But they are responsible for the manner in which they have pressed their argument. They weren’t to know something like this was going to happen, of course, and they will be just as shocked and horrified by it as anyone else.

But, still. Look. When you encourage rage you cannot then feign surprise when people become enraged. You cannot turn around and say, ‘Mate, you weren’t supposed to take it so seriously. It’s just a game, just a ploy, a strategy for winning votes.’

When you shout BREAKING POINT over and over again, you don’t get to be surprised when someone breaks. When you present politics as a matter of life and death, as a question of national survival, don’t be surprised if someone takes you at your word. You didn’t make them do it, no, but you didn’t do much to stop it either.

Sometimes rhetoric has consequences. If you spend days, weeks, months, years telling people they are under threat, that their country has been stolen from them, that they have been betrayed and sold down the river, that their birthright has been pilfered, that their problem is they’re too slow to realise any of this is happening, that their problem is they’re not sufficiently mad as hell, then at some point, in some place, something or someone is going to snap. And then something terrible is going to happen.

Quite.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 6:54 pm

refitman wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Massive storm right overhead with heavy rain and hailstones.

Nah. But right at this moment, I'd like to be anywhere but England.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 7:03 pm

That poster from earlier today was actually a straight lift from 1930s Nazi propaganda.

And that's the thing, to the likes of Farage and BoJo it basically IS just a big game. And so since nothing really matters, the ends justify the means.

Not just that, but as some of us have been banging on and on and on about for literally years - too many in the media "bubble" have that attitude too. Nothing is ever examined on its actual moral worth or even truthfulness, just on how "smart" or "clever" it might be (and always in the short term alone as well)

Enough.

On a happier note - what about Northern Ireland, eh?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 7:09 pm

My husband has brought me a delicious watermelon.
Please come help yourselves.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 7:15 pm

Sarah M ‏@sazza_jay 1h
I wish this was the conclusion of our violent political rhetoric, scaremongering and a rise in fascism but it's just the beginning.

Sarah M ‏@sazza_jay 1h
Britain First and the hate it preaches didn't come about in a vacuum. A murder of a Remain Labour Campaigner didn't happen in a vacuum.

Sarah M ‏@sazza_jay 1h
When Cameron says Labour are a threat to your security & Farage says Remain are allowing terrorists & rapists in, how do you think it ends?

Sarah M @sazza_jay
You create a political discourse so toxic, so virulent, so disingenuous and so hyperbolic this is where you end up. With murderous fanatics.

Sarah M ‏@sazza_jay 1h
Jo Cox is the latest in a long line of victims of violence fuelled by rhetoric and scaremongering on the right. For shame.

Sarah M ‏@sazza_jay 1h
And fuck off telling there's nothing political about the murder of a Left Wing politician by a right wing fanatic outside her own surgery.

Sarah M ‏@sazza_jay 1h
And OF COURSE I already have people in my mentions speculating on his mental health

Sarah M ‏@sazza_jay 27m
I hope I'm wrong. I hope the police come out & say this was a personal grudge because what the fuck does it mean for us otherwise?

A young person's Tweets.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 7:18 pm

Evening all

A very sad day - a death of an MP, whoever it is, is very shocking

Like Mrs Ohso said earlier though we cannot be surprised as the bile that has been expressed recently has been sickening and I am despairing for the UK at the moment......especially England

The 'Leave' campaign goes on about British Values......I don't think I will be able to hear that again without vomiting

What must the rest of Europe think of us? That is rhetorical by the way as I already know and it is a mixture of bewilderment and disdain

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 7:23 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
Sarah M ‏@sazza_jay 1h
I wish this was the conclusion of our violent political rhetoric, scaremongering and a rise in fascism but it's just the beginning.

Sarah M ‏@sazza_jay 1h
Britain First and the hate it preaches didn't come about in a vacuum. A murder of a Remain Labour Campaigner didn't happen in a vacuum.

Sarah M ‏@sazza_jay 1h
When Cameron says Labour are a threat to your security & Farage says Remain are allowing terrorists & rapists in, how do you think it ends?

Sarah M @sazza_jay
You create a political discourse so toxic, so virulent, so disingenuous and so hyperbolic this is where you end up. With murderous fanatics.

Sarah M ‏@sazza_jay 1h
Jo Cox is the latest in a long line of victims of violence fuelled by rhetoric and scaremongering on the right. For shame.

Sarah M ‏@sazza_jay 1h
And fuck off telling there's nothing political about the murder of a Left Wing politician by a right wing fanatic outside her own surgery.

Sarah M ‏@sazza_jay 1h
And OF COURSE I already have people in my mentions speculating on his mental health

Sarah M ‏@sazza_jay 27m
I hope I'm wrong. I hope the police come out & say this was a personal grudge because what the fuck does it mean for us otherwise?

A young person's Tweets.

Anyone who murders has some sort of mental malfunction as most people could not commit a premeditated killing.

I don't see this excuse being used for those who commit atrocities on behalf of ISIS

Not that we know the motive yet but there are some circumstantial indications

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 7:29 pm

Thank you, my friends here, unafraid, sharing our thoughts without fear. The Guardian posted a good article and the comments
are open below. I've read some fine posts. Then there are commentator's who want us all to shut up. They find the commiserations
of people scandalised by the assassination of an elected Labour MP too much free speech to be endured.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... y#comments" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Pull this piece. Pull these comments . Show some fucking decorum you scum"

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 7:36 pm

Guess who went there:

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During the BBC News I annoyed my family with an absolutely furious outburst at David Cameron. I understand he's on "my" side of this debate. But this is what you get when you decide to pander to Faragists - you legitimise filthy fellow travellers like Nick Griffin. What a sick and vile mess. I hold him chiefly responsible for it. He was pretty low in my estimation before, but this really is unforgivable.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 7:39 pm

From The G.Fuck their new audience.

: 13450867_10153820979367568_8332104866488606733_n.jpg (132.66 KiB) Viewed 7714 times

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 7:48 pm

72 years old, and I feel as if I've been kicked. History in the making. The assassination of a beautiful young woman.
Watching events unfold with dread, knowing we're sitting on a powder keg. But how can you possibly imagine something quite so bad happening?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 7:50 pm

TobyLatimer wrote:From The G.Fuck their new audience.
13450867_10153820979367568_8332104866488606733_n.jpg

Their Comments facility needs to be permanently removed.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 7:50 pm

ohsocynical wrote:72 years old, and I feel as if I've been kicked. History in the making. The assassination of a beautiful young woman.
Watching events unfold with dread, knowing we're sitting on a powder keg. But how can you possibly imagine something quite so bad happening?

how can you possibly imagine something quite so bad happening?

Having a History degree really doesn't help at times like this...

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 7:56 pm

For every one of the people screaming that there is absolutely no evidence or connection between Jo Cox's death and politics in any way, there are an unknown number of people silently applauding this and imagining the next strike.

There doesn't even need to be a connection when the right wing are prepared to claim it as a banner raised.

People, we live in that worst of all places: Interesting Times.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 7:59 pm

NonOxCol wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:72 years old, and I feel as if I've been kicked. History in the making. The assassination of a beautiful young woman.
Watching events unfold with dread, knowing we're sitting on a powder keg. But how can you possibly imagine something quite so bad happening?

how can you possibly imagine something quite so bad happening?
Having a History degree really doesn't help at times like this...

It's a quirk of mine, wondering how all that's happening in my lifetime will be written in the history books. I'm dead peeved I shan't be around to see if I agree with their version or not.

My one hope is they'll portray Cameron so viciously his descendants will be too ashamed to claim him as one of their own.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 8:00 pm

so when will news break about motive....I am sure the papers will know all about him by now!

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 8:13 pm

Nadine Patel ‏@NPatelBC 25m25 minutes ago

Rosena Allin-Khan just knocked on my door...she's said the votes are neck & neck. Come on Tooting pls make this dark day a tiny bit brighter

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 8:17 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:so when will news break about motive....I am sure the papers will know all about him by now!

Already started. Tim Montgomerie has started the "lone nutter" narrative:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06 ... um=twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 8:23 pm

danesclose wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:so when will news break about motive....I am sure the papers will know all about him by now!
Already started. Tim Montgomerie has started the "lone nutter" narrative:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06 ... um=twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I wouldn't be surprised if he was.....a lot of these killings are by people like that. There is usually some catalyst though - sex, religion, politics etc......

If, and it is a big if at the moment, he did this because he was influenced by the extreme right then they cannot hide from it...the hate speech and intemperate language influences people like this

No-one has suggested the extreme right-wing has launched a terrorist wave against Britain (why would they? - they are getting a lot of they want under the guise of 'normal' politics) but some of their unstable elements are at risk from the rhetoric coming from the fringes, or in Farage's case mainstream', of the Leave campaign

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 8:26 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
danesclose wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:so when will news break about motive....I am sure the papers will know all about him by now!
Already started. Tim Montgomerie has started the "lone nutter" narrative:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06 ... um=twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I wouldn't be surprised if he was.....a lot of these killings are by people like that. There is usually some catalyst though - sex, religion, politics etc......

If, and it is a big if at the moment, he did this because he was influenced by the extreme right then they cannot hide from it...the hate speech and intemperate language influences people like this

No-one has suggested the extreme right-wing has launched a terrorist wave against Britain (why would they? - they are getting a lot of they want under the guise of 'normal' politics) but some of their unstable elements are at risk from the rhetoric coming from the fringes, or in Farage's case mainstream', of the Leave campaign

It's a horrifying thought to find yourself having to hope he comes from the lunatic fringe.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 8:28 pm

I've got to call it an early night. I love you all very much. I'm angry and sad. Her husband, her children. We cried, my spouse and I.
love,
cJA

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 8:28 pm

I feel sick.

I'm going to bed. I've been crying for what feels like a long time.

Goodnight, all.

Thank you for being here.

xx

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 8:31 pm

mbc1955 wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
danesclose wrote: Already started. Tim Montgomerie has started the "lone nutter" narrative:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06 ... um=twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I wouldn't be surprised if he was.....a lot of these killings are by people like that. There is usually some catalyst though - sex, religion, politics etc......

If, and it is a big if at the moment, he did this because he was influenced by the extreme right then they cannot hide from it...the hate speech and intemperate language influences people like this

No-one has suggested the extreme right-wing has launched a terrorist wave against Britain (why would they? - they are getting a lot of they want under the guise of 'normal' politics) but some of their unstable elements are at risk from the rhetoric coming from the fringes, or in Farage's case mainstream', of the Leave campaign
It's a horrifying thought to find yourself hoping he comes from the lunatic fringe.

The thing is that even if he does come from the fringe it does not let off the right wing politicians who have been using some very unpleasant language....and that poster from Farage this morning is very concerning from a supposedly mainstream political...I haven't seen anything like that in the UK except from the extreme right.

They cannot hide behind the 'madman' argument as these type are the people who are radicalised by hate speech and why it should be clamped down on......Leave is not to blame for this horrible murder but some of them can be blamed for making immigration the heart of the argument and for the language they use

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 8:41 pm

Events have a multiplier effect. And when they come in bunches the effect can be overpowering. This was already a sad and demeaning day, even before we heard the ghastly news a Labour MP, Jo Cox, had been murdered outside her constituency surgery in Yorkshire.

Politics is, figuratively speaking, a contact sport. It is a hard business because it is an important business. It matters and it matters even more when the stakes are so very high. But just as class will out at the highest level in sport, when the stakes are the very greatest and everything seems to be on the line, so character reveals itself in politics too. Even, especially, when it really counts.

A referendum is one of those moments when it counts. There is no do-over, no consoling thought in defeat that, at least, there’s always next season. No, defeat is permanent and for keeps. That’s why a referendum is so much uglier than a general election. The ‘wrong’ people often win an election but their victory is only – and always – temporary. There will be another day, another time. An election is a negotiation; a referendum is a judgement with no court of appeal. So character reveals itself. The poster unveiled by Nigel Farage this morning marked a new low, even for him.

The mask – the pawky, gin o’clock, you know what I mean, mask – didn’t slip because there was no mask at all. BREAKING POINT, it screamed above a queue of dusky-hued refugees waiting to cross a border. The message was not very subtle: Vote Leave, Britain, or be over-run by brown people. Take control. Take back our country. You know what I mean, don’t you: If you want a Turk – or a Syrian – for a neighbour, vote Remain. Simple. Common sense. Innit?

And then this afternoon, a 42 year old member of parliament, who happens – and this may prove to have been more than a coincidence – to have been an MP who lobbied for Britain to do more to assist the desperate people fleeing Syria’s charnel house, was shot and stabbed and murdered.

Events have a multiplier effect.

It’s not Nigel Farage’s fault Jo Cox is dead. It’s not Boris Johnson’s fault either. Nor is it the fault of Michael Gove or Dan Hannan or anyone else campaigning for Britain to leave the European Union. Most of these people (there is a glaring exception), like most of the people who will vote Leave next week, are decent and honourable people making an argument they sincerely (there may be one exception to this, too) believe is in the best interests of the United Kingdom. They are not responsible for Jo Cox’s death. The murderer is the only person responsible for that.

But if – as seems likely – the murderer had what are coyly referred to as ties to the far-right, if, as seems all too grimly probable, he was motivated by a hatred of what he felt Britain had become. If, as several witnesses have claimed, he shouted Britain First as he attacked Jo Cox, then it is reasonable – and necessary – to ask where he came from.

We hope, because doing so offers a shred of comfort even in horrid moments, that he was just a ‘lone wolf’ or a lunatic acting alone. We hope so because hoping that makes it easier to say, once the shock has worn off, that this was a singular event of the sort that cannot be predicted. Sometimes terrible things happen.

Well, so they do. But we know that even lone lunatics don’t live in a bubble. They are influenced by outside events. That’s why, when there is an act of Islamist terrorism, we quite rightly want to know if it was, implicitly or explicitly, encouraged by other actors. We do not believe – at least we should not – in collective guilt or punishment but we do want to know, with reason, whether an individual assassin was inspired by ideology or religion or hate-speech or any of a hundred other possible motivating factors. We do not hold all muslims accountable for the violence carried out in the name of their prophet but nor can we avoid the ugly, unpalatable, truth that, as far as the perpetrator is concerned, he (it is almost always he) is acting in the service of his view of his religion. He has a cause, no matter how warped it may be. And so we ask who influenced him? We ask, how did it come to this?

So, no, Nigel Farage isn’t responsible for Jo Cox’s murder. And nor is the Leave campaign. But they are responsible for the manner in which they have pressed their argument. They weren’t to know something like this was going to happen, of course, and they will be just as shocked and horrified by it as anyone else.

But, still. Look. When you encourage rage you cannot then feign surprise when people become enraged. You cannot turn around and say, ‘Mate, you weren’t supposed to take it so seriously. It’s just a game, just a ploy, a strategy for winning votes.’

When you shout BREAKING POINT over and over again, you don’t get to be surprised when someone breaks. When you present politics as a matter of life and death, as a question of national survival, don’t be surprised if someone takes you at your word. You didn’t make them do it, no, but you didn’t do much to stop it either.

Sometimes rhetoric has consequences. If you spend days, weeks, months, years telling people they are under threat, that their country has been stolen from them, that they have been betrayed and sold down the river, that their birthright has been pilfered, that their problem is they’re too slow to realise any of this is happening, that their problem is they’re not sufficiently mad as hell, then at some point, in some place, something or someone is going to snap. And then something terrible is going to happen.

We can’t control the weather but, in politics, we can control the climate in which the weather happens. That’s on us, all of us, whatever side of any given argument we happen to be. Today, it feels like we’ve done something terrible to that climate.

Sad doesn’t begin to cover it. This is worse, much worse, than just sad. This is a day of infamy, a day in which we should all feel angry and ashamed. Because if you don’t feel a little ashamed – if you don’t feel sick, right now, wherever you are reading this – then something’s gone wrong with you somewhere.
Jo Cox was, by all accounts, a fine parliamentarian and a fine woman. She has been taken from her family and her constituents but her death strips something from all of us as well. I cannot recall ever feeling worse about this country and its politics than is the case right now.

Events have a multiplier effect. So do feelings.

I've posted this in full because according to Twitter it's been taken off the Spectator front pages, and put into the archives.. And it shouldn't have been. It's a powerful piece of writing.
https://web.archive.org/web/2016061618 ... urn false;

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 8:42 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
Events have a multiplier effect. And when they come in bunches the effect can be overpowering. This was already a sad and demeaning day, even before we heard the ghastly news a Labour MP, Jo Cox, had been murdered outside her constituency surgery in Yorkshire.

Politics is, figuratively speaking, a contact sport. It is a hard business because it is an important business. It matters and it matters even more when the stakes are so very high. But just as class will out at the highest level in sport, when the stakes are the very greatest and everything seems to be on the line, so character reveals itself in politics too. Even, especially, when it really counts.

A referendum is one of those moments when it counts. There is no do-over, no consoling thought in defeat that, at least, there’s always next season. No, defeat is permanent and for keeps. That’s why a referendum is so much uglier than a general election. The ‘wrong’ people often win an election but their victory is only – and always – temporary. There will be another day, another time. An election is a negotiation; a referendum is a judgement with no court of appeal. So character reveals itself. The poster unveiled by Nigel Farage this morning marked a new low, even for him.

The mask – the pawky, gin o’clock, you know what I mean, mask – didn’t slip because there was no mask at all. BREAKING POINT, it screamed above a queue of dusky-hued refugees waiting to cross a border. The message was not very subtle: Vote Leave, Britain, or be over-run by brown people. Take control. Take back our country. You know what I mean, don’t you: If you want a Turk – or a Syrian – for a neighbour, vote Remain. Simple. Common sense. Innit?

And then this afternoon, a 42 year old member of parliament, who happens – and this may prove to have been more than a coincidence – to have been an MP who lobbied for Britain to do more to assist the desperate people fleeing Syria’s charnel house, was shot and stabbed and murdered.

Events have a multiplier effect.

It’s not Nigel Farage’s fault Jo Cox is dead. It’s not Boris Johnson’s fault either. Nor is it the fault of Michael Gove or Dan Hannan or anyone else campaigning for Britain to leave the European Union. Most of these people (there is a glaring exception), like most of the people who will vote Leave next week, are decent and honourable people making an argument they sincerely (there may be one exception to this, too) believe is in the best interests of the United Kingdom. They are not responsible for Jo Cox’s death. The murderer is the only person responsible for that.

But if – as seems likely – the murderer had what are coyly referred to as ties to the far-right, if, as seems all too grimly probable, he was motivated by a hatred of what he felt Britain had become. If, as several witnesses have claimed, he shouted Britain First as he attacked Jo Cox, then it is reasonable – and necessary – to ask where he came from.

We hope, because doing so offers a shred of comfort even in horrid moments, that he was just a ‘lone wolf’ or a lunatic acting alone. We hope so because hoping that makes it easier to say, once the shock has worn off, that this was a singular event of the sort that cannot be predicted. Sometimes terrible things happen.

Well, so they do. But we know that even lone lunatics don’t live in a bubble. They are influenced by outside events. That’s why, when there is an act of Islamist terrorism, we quite rightly want to know if it was, implicitly or explicitly, encouraged by other actors. We do not believe – at least we should not – in collective guilt or punishment but we do want to know, with reason, whether an individual assassin was inspired by ideology or religion or hate-speech or any of a hundred other possible motivating factors. We do not hold all muslims accountable for the violence carried out in the name of their prophet but nor can we avoid the ugly, unpalatable, truth that, as far as the perpetrator is concerned, he (it is almost always he) is acting in the service of his view of his religion. He has a cause, no matter how warped it may be. And so we ask who influenced him? We ask, how did it come to this?

So, no, Nigel Farage isn’t responsible for Jo Cox’s murder. And nor is the Leave campaign. But they are responsible for the manner in which they have pressed their argument. They weren’t to know something like this was going to happen, of course, and they will be just as shocked and horrified by it as anyone else.

But, still. Look. When you encourage rage you cannot then feign surprise when people become enraged. You cannot turn around and say, ‘Mate, you weren’t supposed to take it so seriously. It’s just a game, just a ploy, a strategy for winning votes.’

When you shout BREAKING POINT over and over again, you don’t get to be surprised when someone breaks. When you present politics as a matter of life and death, as a question of national survival, don’t be surprised if someone takes you at your word. You didn’t make them do it, no, but you didn’t do much to stop it either.

Sometimes rhetoric has consequences. If you spend days, weeks, months, years telling people they are under threat, that their country has been stolen from them, that they have been betrayed and sold down the river, that their birthright has been pilfered, that their problem is they’re too slow to realise any of this is happening, that their problem is they’re not sufficiently mad as hell, then at some point, in some place, something or someone is going to snap. And then something terrible is going to happen.

We can’t control the weather but, in politics, we can control the climate in which the weather happens. That’s on us, all of us, whatever side of any given argument we happen to be. Today, it feels like we’ve done something terrible to that climate.

Sad doesn’t begin to cover it. This is worse, much worse, than just sad. This is a day of infamy, a day in which we should all feel angry and ashamed. Because if you don’t feel a little ashamed – if you don’t feel sick, right now, wherever you are reading this – then something’s gone wrong with you somewhere.
Jo Cox was, by all accounts, a fine parliamentarian and a fine woman. She has been taken from her family and her constituents but her death strips something from all of us as well. I cannot recall ever feeling worse about this country and its politics than is the case right now.

Events have a multiplier effect. So do feelings.
I've posted this in full because according to Twitter it's been taken off the Spectator front pages, and put into the archives.. And it shouldn't have been. It's a powerful piece of writing.
https://web.archive.org/web/2016061618 ... urn false;

Barclay brothers mustn't have liked it! Can't criticise Nigel.........

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 8:48 pm

It's back again now with apparently some changes.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 8:52 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
mbc1955 wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if he was.....a lot of these killings are by people like that. There is usually some catalyst though - sex, religion, politics etc......

If, and it is a big if at the moment, he did this because he was influenced by the extreme right then they cannot hide from it...the hate speech and intemperate language influences people like this

No-one has suggested the extreme right-wing has launched a terrorist wave against Britain (why would they? - they are getting a lot of they want under the guise of 'normal' politics) but some of their unstable elements are at risk from the rhetoric coming from the fringes, or in Farage's case mainstream', of the Leave campaign
It's a horrifying thought to find yourself hoping he comes from the lunatic fringe.

The thing is that even if he does come from the fringe it does not let off the right wing politicians who have been using some very unpleasant language....and that poster from Farage this morning is very concerning from a supposedly mainstream political...I haven't seen anything like that in the UK except from the extreme right.

They cannot hide behind the 'madman' argument as these type are the people who are radicalised by hate speech and why it should be clamped down on......Leave is not to blame for this horrible murder but some of them can be blamed for making immigration the heart of the argument and for the language they use

If he reads, The Sun, The Mail, The Express, he'll have been fed a diet of barely veiled racism. Often made up, with lurid headlines and inflammatory photos, I doubt he'll have seen the piss poor apologies tucked away in the middle of the paper. Our media has a great deal to answer for. But I doubt they will. They are already covering their backs.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 8:56 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
Events have a multiplier effect. And when they come in bunches the effect can be overpowering. This was already a sad and demeaning day, even before we heard the ghastly news a Labour MP, Jo Cox, had been murdered outside her constituency surgery in Yorkshire.

Politics is, figuratively speaking, a contact sport. It is a hard business because it is an important business. It matters and it matters even more when the stakes are so very high. But just as class will out at the highest level in sport, when the stakes are the very greatest and everything seems to be on the line, so character reveals itself in politics too. Even, especially, when it really counts.

A referendum is one of those moments when it counts. There is no do-over, no consoling thought in defeat that, at least, there’s always next season. No, defeat is permanent and for keeps. That’s why a referendum is so much uglier than a general election. The ‘wrong’ people often win an election but their victory is only – and always – temporary. There will be another day, another time. An election is a negotiation; a referendum is a judgement with no court of appeal. So character reveals itself. The poster unveiled by Nigel Farage this morning marked a new low, even for him.

The mask – the pawky, gin o’clock, you know what I mean, mask – didn’t slip because there was no mask at all. BREAKING POINT, it screamed above a queue of dusky-hued refugees waiting to cross a border. The message was not very subtle: Vote Leave, Britain, or be over-run by brown people. Take control. Take back our country. You know what I mean, don’t you: If you want a Turk – or a Syrian – for a neighbour, vote Remain. Simple. Common sense. Innit?

And then this afternoon, a 42 year old member of parliament, who happens – and this may prove to have been more than a coincidence – to have been an MP who lobbied for Britain to do more to assist the desperate people fleeing Syria’s charnel house, was shot and stabbed and murdered.

Events have a multiplier effect.

It’s not Nigel Farage’s fault Jo Cox is dead. It’s not Boris Johnson’s fault either. Nor is it the fault of Michael Gove or Dan Hannan or anyone else campaigning for Britain to leave the European Union. Most of these people (there is a glaring exception), like most of the people who will vote Leave next week, are decent and honourable people making an argument they sincerely (there may be one exception to this, too)believe is in the best interests of the United Kingdom. They are not responsible for Jo Cox’s death. The murderer is the only person responsible for that.

But if – as seems likely – the murderer had what are coyly referred to as ties to the far-right, if, as seems all too grimly probable, he was motivated by a hatred of what he felt Britain had become. If, as several witnesses have claimed, he shouted Britain First as he attacked Jo Cox, then it is reasonable – and necessary – to ask where he came from.

We hope, because doing so offers a shred of comfort even in horrid moments, that he was just a ‘lone wolf’ or a lunatic acting alone. We hope so because hoping that makes it easier to say, once the shock has worn off, that this was a singular event of the sort that cannot be predicted. Sometimes terrible things happen.

Well, so they do. But we know that even lone lunatics don’t live in a bubble. They are influenced by outside events. That’s why, when there is an act of Islamist terrorism, we quite rightly want to know if it was, implicitly or explicitly, encouraged by other actors. We do not believe – at least we should not – in collective guilt or punishment but we do want to know, with reason, whether an individual assassin was inspired by ideology or religion or hate-speech or any of a hundred other possible motivating factors. We do not hold all muslims accountable for the violence carried out in the name of their prophet but nor can we avoid the ugly, unpalatable, truth that, as far as the perpetrator is concerned, he (it is almost always he) is acting in the service of his view of his religion. He has a cause, no matter how warped it may be. And so we ask who influenced him? We ask, how did it come to this?

So, no, Nigel Farage isn’t responsible for Jo Cox’s murder. And nor is the Leave campaign. But they are responsible for the manner in which they have pressed their argument. They weren’t to know something like this was going to happen, of course, and they will be just as shocked and horrified by it as anyone else.

But, still. Look. When you encourage rage you cannot then feign surprise when people become enraged. You cannot turn around and say, ‘Mate, you weren’t supposed to take it so seriously. It’s just a game, just a ploy, a strategy for winning votes.’

When you shout BREAKING POINT over and over again, you don’t get to be surprised when someone breaks. When you present politics as a matter of life and death, as a question of national survival, don’t be surprised if someone takes you at your word. You didn’t make them do it, no, but you didn’t do much to stop it either.

Sometimes rhetoric has consequences. If you spend days, weeks, months, years telling people they are under threat, that their country has been stolen from them, that they have been betrayed and sold down the river, that their birthright has been pilfered, that their problem is they’re too slow to realise any of this is happening, that their problem is they’re not sufficiently mad as hell, then at some point, in some place, something or someone is going to snap. And then something terrible is going to happen.

We can’t control the weather but, in politics, we can control the climate in which the weather happens. That’s on us, all of us, whatever side of any given argument we happen to be. Today, it feels like we’ve done something terrible to that climate.

Sad doesn’t begin to cover it. This is worse, much worse, than just sad. This is a day of infamy, a day in which we should all feel angry and ashamed. Because if you don’t feel a little ashamed – if you don’t feel sick, right now, wherever you are reading this – then something’s gone wrong with you somewhere.
Jo Cox was, by all accounts, a fine parliamentarian and a fine woman. She has been taken from her family and her constituents but her death strips something from all of us as well. I cannot recall ever feeling worse about this country and its politics than is the case right now.

Events have a multiplier effect. So do feelings.
I've posted this in full because according to Twitter it's been taken off the Spectator front pages, and put into the archives.. And it shouldn't have been. It's a powerful piece of writing.
https://web.archive.org/web/2016061618 ... urn false;

Barclay brothers mustn't have liked it! Can't criticise Nigel.........

I've greened two comments in the above article. I wonder who he was referring to?

Hobiejoe · Post by **Hobiejoe** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 8:59 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
ohsocynical wrote: I've posted this in full because according to Twitter it's been taken off the Spectator front pages, and put into the archives.. And it shouldn't have been. It's a powerful piece of writing.
https://web.archive.org/web/2016061618 ... urn false;

Barclay brothers mustn't have liked it! Can't criticise Nigel.........
I've greened two comments in the above article. I wonder who he was referring to?

Second one would be Boris, I imagine.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 9:00 pm

mbc1955 wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
danesclose wrote: Already started. Tim Montgomerie has started the "lone nutter" narrative:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06 ... um=twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I wouldn't be surprised if he was.....a lot of these killings are by people like that. There is usually some catalyst though - sex, religion, politics etc......

If, and it is a big if at the moment, he did this because he was influenced by the extreme right then they cannot hide from it...the hate speech and intemperate language influences people like this

No-one has suggested the extreme right-wing has launched a terrorist wave against Britain (why would they? - they are getting a lot of they want under the guise of 'normal' politics) but some of their unstable elements are at risk from the rhetoric coming from the fringes, or in Farage's case mainstream', of the Leave campaign
It's a horrifying thought to find yourself having to hope he comes from the lunatic fringe.

My concern is the lazy stereotyping of mental health = dangerous lunatic.
The overwhelming majority of people who suffer from mental illness are the victims of violent behaviour, rather than the perpetrators

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 9:13 pm

The Day of Infamy that was in the Spectator and which I posted in its original version is being quite heavily criticised on some Twitter threads.
Now it's been re written and says something about a loner, not influenced by anyone or anything.
You get the gist...

Free press my ass.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 9:24 pm

All the lone nutters who kill don't live in isolation for days, months, years and never watch DVDs, the TV, use the computer, or read the papers. It's what they do, where they get their ideas from.

Politicians use social media, the right wing press spews a daily diet of bile, and the TV news apart from Channel 4 is pretty slanted. I bet even Channel 4 has showed Farage's latest racist poster.

And anyone else wonder where he learned to cobble together his home made gun?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 9:33 pm

https://redbrickblog.wordpress.com/2016 ... -response/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

More evictions, more homelessness: what’s the government’s response?

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 9:35 pm

"One can register shock at what has happened, but not complete surprise." Polly Toynbee

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 9:37 pm

The mood is ugly, and an MP is dead
Polly Toynbee

It’s wrong to view the killing of Jo Cox in isolation. Hate has been whipped up against the political class

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... es_Manager

I'm not going to read the BTL comments.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 9:40 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:"One can register shock at what has happened, but not complete surprise." Polly Toynbee

She must have read what I posted earlier.
I've honestly had a feeling of dread waiting for something awful to happen for a couple of weeks now, but I thought it would probably be riots or the like ...

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 9:47 pm

There isn't a comment facility (as yet)

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 9:47 pm

danesclose wrote:
mbc1955 wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if he was.....a lot of these killings are by people like that. There is usually some catalyst though - sex, religion, politics etc......

If, and it is a big if at the moment, he did this because he was influenced by the extreme right then they cannot hide from it...the hate speech and intemperate language influences people like this

No-one has suggested the extreme right-wing has launched a terrorist wave against Britain (why would they? - they are getting a lot of they want under the guise of 'normal' politics) but some of their unstable elements are at risk from the rhetoric coming from the fringes, or in Farage's case mainstream', of the Leave campaign
It's a horrifying thought to find yourself having to hope he comes from the lunatic fringe.
My concern is the lazy stereotyping of mental health = dangerous lunatic.
The overwhelming majority of people who suffer from mental illness are the victims of violent behaviour, rather than the perpetrators

My concern is about what's happened today and its direct application to what will happen now, in both the immediate and long term future. This is the wrong day for semantics.