Wednesday 22nd June 2016

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 6:01 am

Morning all.

Not long to go now. I'm still hoping for good weather and a great turnout. Oh, and a phyric victory for Cameron. His referendum, his harvest.

BTW I'm thinking Osborne, Hunt, May have been relatively quiet recently.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 7:25 am

The weather forecast doesn't bode well.

Fine everywhere except London, Scotland and Northern Ireland :-S

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 7:28 am

Morning.

Did anyone watch the BBC debate last night ?
It seemed like X Factor meets politics. Lots of roaring from the crowd, seemed very US style unfortunately.

Didn't watch much as a result of the presentation style. But Sadiq, Frances were very good.
As was Ruth Davidson. A real hard hitter, what a shame she's a Tory.

Bozo, well he was his usual self. The audience seemed very partial to, and cheered loudly for, a charlatan with a daft hairdo waffling about 'Project Fear'.

If I'm not around much in the next few days it won't be because I've taken umbrage at anyone, but am in the prodrome stage of a basilar migraine attack. I'm upping the prophylaxis medication, am hoping to abort the worst of it but may not be able to.
It's the stress of the referendum I'm sure, as I haven't had a bad attack recently since on some new blood pressure medication.
On the positive side, the strange visual effects are like an acid trip if you can relax and go with them.
Trippin' man ...

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 7:32 am

Yvette Cooper has received a tweet threatening to kill her kids and grandkids.

Some of the replies sent to her don't exactly warm the heart or inspire confidence in the British electorate.

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 7:46 am

Interactive map detailing how UK regions plan to vote in the Referendum.
https://yougov.co.uk/yougov-8545/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yahyah's stamping ground is very Europhile! Mine is mixed (leaning towards Eurosceptic) which isn't surprising. The most Eurosceptic area is Cumbria.

Johnson, with Penny Mordaunt, was in Norfolk last Thursday. He was in Norwich when the news came through about Jo Cox - they cancelled the rest of their schedule (they were due to visit Ipswich). Norwich was giving them short shrift and the City Council had refused to let them set up a stage in the city centre. Previous to that they'd been in Cromer where they'd had a warmer welcome, finding plenty of people (mostly pensioners) keen to complain about immigrants. When a reporter from a local paper asked one of them what he meant, he admitted there were virtually no immigrants in Cromer but it was a problem in Great Yarmouth (35 miles away)!

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 7:52 am

NonOxCol wrote:Yvette Cooper has received a tweet threatening to kill her kids and grandkids.

Some of the replies sent to her don't exactly warm the heart or inspire confidence in the British electorate.

Awful

Post by **refitman** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 7:54 am

Get better soon yahyah.

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 7:55 am

Get well soon Yahyah.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 7:58 am

Thanks Dan.

A what if scenario,

100 days after Brexit
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/105-d ... 94056.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is tongue in cheek. Can anyone offer a more positive vision. It can't be all bad surely ?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 8:00 am

large pic deleted.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 8:00 am

nickyinnorfolk wrote:Interactive map detailing how UK regions plan to vote in the Referendum.
https://yougov.co.uk/yougov-8545/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yahyah's stamping ground is very Europhile! Mine is mixed (leaning towards Eurosceptic) which isn't surprising. The most Eurosceptic area is Cumbria.

Johnson, with Penny Mordaunt, was in Norfolk last Thursday. He was in Norwich when the news came through about Jo Cox - they cancelled the rest of their schedule (they were due to visit Ipswich). Norwich was giving them short shrift and the City Council had refused to let them set up a stage in the city centre. Previous to that they'd been in Cromer where they'd had a warmer welcome, finding plenty of people (mostly pensioners) keen to complain about immigrants. When a reporter from a local paper asked one of them what he meant, he admitted there were virtually no immigrants in Cromer but it was a problem in Great Yarmouth (35 miles away)!

Bristol, which is likely to be one of the last regions to declare, looks pretty Europhile. The result will probably be beyond doubt before we get to them, though, I suspect. My area is mixed. That's probably all the Libdems from Bath offsetting the default Somerset leaning for "out".....and me, of course!

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 8:12 am

yahyah wrote:Morning.

Did anyone watch the BBC debate last night ?
It seemed like X Factor meets politics. Lots of roaring from the crowd, seemed very US style unfortunately.

Didn't watch much as a result of the presentation style. But Sadiq, Frances were very good.
As was Ruth Davidson. A real hard hitter, what a shame she's a Tory.

Bozo, well he was his usual self. The audience seemed very partial to, and cheered loudly for, a charlatan with a daft hairdo waffling about 'Project Fear'.

If I'm not around much in the next few days it won't be because I've taken umbrage at anyone, but am in the prodrome stage of a basilar migraine attack. I'm upping the prophylaxis medication, am hoping to abort the worst of it but may not be able to.
It's the stress of the referendum I'm sure, as I haven't had a bad attack recently since on some new blood pressure medication.
On the positive side, the strange visual effects are like an acid trip if you can relax and go with them.
Trippin' man ...

I didn't see it but there's a lot in the news today about it, especially regarding Ruth Davidson. We had a village meeting in the evening and after that I sat in the garden reading a book (Alexei Sayle's childhood memoir Stalin Ate My Homework - growing up in 50s Liverpool, the only child of Communist parents - very funny and interesting).

I find Ruth Davidson a bit of a puzzle, although there's no denying she's a kick ass politician. I wish Ed had been as assertive as her, calling a lie a lie, when he was taking part in the debates last year.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 8:23 am

Boris Johnson is taking Tory fish pointing to a whole new level.
Fish holding is the latest (wannabe) Tory leader piscine PR pic.

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 8:34 am

I remember the first time I came across Ruth Davidson - she was contesting Glasgow North East in 2009 and John Harris was doing mini interviews with all the candidates whenever he managed to catch them. With her, he said in a jokey way, why are you even bothering? I think he was expecting her to respond in an equally jokey way, which seems to be the unwritten rule in which the whole political scene is seen as some sort of sitcom.

However Davidson barked at him that the electors of Glasgow NE had a democratic right to have the option of voting for her. She looked mightily pissed off.

I don't agree with her politics and frankly find it peculiar that she (gay, working class/lower middle, Scottish) would want to ally herself with the Tory party, but she had a valid point.

At some point in the future it almost looks as if the Tories (the pale, male and moneyed party) could, incredibly, be the first UK party to have a gay woman leader. Stranger things have happened.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 8:45 am

So apparently Dave said on Today that 'Freedom of Movement' will be reopened on Friday in the event of a Remain vote.

I mean seriously? I want there to be freedom of movement.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 8:52 am

David Allen Green ‏@DavidAllenGreen 16h16 hours ago
Referendum Banning Act 2016

1. The holding of a referendum is hereby prohibited.

2. This Act can only be repealed by referendum.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 8:59 am

So on Friday, is Dave going to say well the deal never was binding and I'm listening to concerns about immigration and human rights etc and I'm off to Brussels to change it all?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 8:59 am

StephenDolan wrote:Morning all.

Not long to go now. I'm still hoping for good weather and a great turnout. Oh, and a phyric victory for Cameron. His referendum, his harvest.

BTW I'm thinking Osborne, Hunt, May have been relatively quiet recently.

May has been quiet all the way along. Hardly a mention. An eye on the leadership? Least worst option?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 9:12 am

The cruel trick that means however you vote on the EU, we’re all screwed

http://www.thecanary.co/2016/06/21/the- ... sh-public/

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 9:12 am

Good-morning, everyone.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 9:20 am

yahyah wrote:If I'm not around much in the next few days it won't be because I've taken umbrage at anyone, but am in the prodrome stage of a basilar migraine attack. I'm upping the prophylaxis medication, am hoping to abort the worst of it but may not be able to.
It's the stress of the referendum I'm sure, as I haven't had a bad attack recently since on some new blood pressure medication.
On the positive side, the strange visual effects are like an acid trip if you can relax and go with them.
Trippin' man ...

Thank you for letting me [us] know, yahyah. Feel better soon. I'd like to go on a walk or hike with you someday.
I learned to love walking and hiking in the UK many years ago. Many things important to me now I learned through living in the UK.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 9:34 am

Good morfternoon.

I'm thoroughly sick of hearing about "unelected Brussels bureaucrats" (also known as civil servants). Why doesn't someone point out that the wheels here are kept turning by civil servants - who are also "unelected" and largely not household names. It's the MEPs and MPs who are elected and if nobody knows who they are (and many people in this country don't even know who the members of the British cabinet are, let alone backbench MPs) then it's mostly because they're not sufficiently interested.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 9:41 am

The EU Commission is actually a very efficient administration

With only about 33000 civil servants, the European Commission prepares, examines, coordinates and implements policy for over 500 million European citizens. That is in fact indeed, a very efficient administration.

According to the EU Commission’s HR key figures card, on January 2014 the European Commission had about 33039 civil servants. Only about 21500 of those civil servants work in Brussels, the other 12000 work in other European and non-European countries. That might sound like a lot, but in comparison it is a VERY efficient civil service. The British Revenue and Customs administration alone has 80000 civil servants. The US federal government employs 1,8 million people. And if we only look at the civil servants on the federal level of the German administration, this already relatively small administration employs about 315.000 federal ‘beamter’.

http://www.thenewfederalist.eu/the-eu-a ... -efficient" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 9:52 am

yahyah wrote:Morning.

Did anyone watch the BBC debate last night ?
It seemed like X Factor meets politics. Lots of roaring from the crowd, seemed very US style unfortunately.

Didn't watch much as a result of the presentation style. But Sadiq, Frances were very good.
As was Ruth Davidson. A real hard hitter, what a shame she's a Tory.

Bozo, well he was his usual self. The audience seemed very partial to, and cheered loudly for, a charlatan with a daft hairdo waffling about 'Project Fear'.

If I'm not around much in the next few days it won't be because I've taken umbrage at anyone, but am in the prodrome stage of a basilar migraine attack. I'm upping the prophylaxis medication, am hoping to abort the worst of it but may not be able to.
It's the stress of the referendum I'm sure, as I haven't had a bad attack recently since on some new blood pressure medication.
On the positive side, the strange visual effects are like an acid trip if you can relax and go with them.
Trippin' man ...

No, I was watching cricket. Unfortunately I have to pay Sky for the privilege but my principles only stretch so far.

Hope you feel better soon.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 9:53 am

Good to see people are looking at Gove's dismissal of experts and not liking what they're hearing.

There's a sinister strain of anti-intellectualism to Gove's dismissal of 'experts'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201 ... or-remain/

This column is safe to read. It contains no “expertise” *hawk; spit*. I have also tried to keep any so-called “facts” to a bare minimum. What follows is pure, distilled common sense (although this is, of course, a matter of opinion).

That’s the good news; now here’s the bad: I have rather a soft spot for experts. I admire their devotion to their subjects. I envy their ability to focus on niche specialisms for years at a time. I kind of like the way they, you know, know stuff.

So, for me, Michael Gove’s assertion that “people in this country have had enough of experts” was, amid a strong field of contenders, one of the most depressing moments in the interminable European Union referendum campaign. In recent days, Steve Hilton, David Cameron’s former director of strategy, has also been getting in on the nerd-bashing.

Good that neither the DT nor the Spectatior have managed to sort out how Chrome Incognito gets round their wall...

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 9:59 am

If Remain win (and maybe even if they don't) Gove is finished as a politician. Unbelievable.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 10:05 am

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 10:06 am

The future of the UK’s position in Europe is in the hands of a record electorate of 46,499,537
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... referendum" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 10:10 am

https://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2016 ... ainlyMacro+(mainly+macro" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

mainly macro

Why defeating Brexit is so important

Other views are available.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 10:12 am

"Today those politicians talking about a breaking point in front of pictures of refugees are given large amounts of air time by the broadcast media. Those pretending we are about to be swamped by Turkish migrants are cheered on by nearly all of the tabloid press. Populist politicians are about to lead once proud centre right parties on both sides of the Atlantic. And one brave Yorkshire politician that argued against all this was shot dead in the street.

We cannot continue to let this pass. It will not stop with Brexit. When Brexit fails to improve our public services or our economy there will be other scapegoats. Maybe migrants already here, or nasty foreigners who failed to give the beneficial trade deals the Leave campaign pretend we will get. In the US right now it is already happening, and this Brexit campaign shows that the UK has no inbuilt immunity to it. This is how it goes, as it has gone in the past.

We cannot let this pass."

From above.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 10:14 am

Yahyah - I hope the migraine is kept at bay or at least reduced by the prophylaxis. If not, I hope you'll feel better soon.

Does anyone know how seeingclearly s getting on? If you'r about, sc, please let us know.

Watching the BBC Brendan Cox interview yesterday, I was struck by what a nice man he is. Those children have two parents to be proud of.

On the murder/assassination/ attack - I am not a person who generally approves of scapegoating, and I hope justice is done in this case.

Whether the perpetrator of this crime has some mental health issues or not, whether he was so full of rage he was temporarily imbalanced or not, I hop that his defence counsel does not attempt to paint this as an aberration when it seems clear even so early in the course of vents that Mr.Mair had planned to do something dreadful, or why else was he carrying a concealed firearm?

From his only utterance in public so far, it seems to me that he supports the neo-nazis in this country; if he is found to have used material from the likes of Britain First or other UK groups, perhaps it's time to make those groups proscribed organisations. I avoid their stuff in the main; but looking at some of the social media stuff they put out, they are deeply hateful and hate-filled morons.

I am fearful that this referendum has stirred up all manner of trouble. It's anyone's guess what will happen if we Brexit; but in some ways, a very close vote to Remain will cause no end of problems. I can't see the far right taking that lying down, can you?

This country is so bloody depressing.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 10:15 am

HindleA wrote:Today those politicians talking about a breaking point in front of pictures of refugees are given large amounts of air time by the broadcast media. Those pretending we are about to be swamped by Turkish migrants are cheered on by nearly all of the tabloid press. Populist politicians are about to lead once proud centre right parties on both sides of the Atlantic. And one brave Yorkshire politician that argued against all this was shot dead in the street.

We cannot continue to let this pass. It will not stop with Brexit. When Brexit fails to improve our public services or our economy there will be other scapegoats. Maybe migrants already here, or nasty foreigners who failed to give the beneficial trade deals the Leave campaign pretend we will get. In the US right now it is already happening, and this Brexit campaign shows that the UK has no inbuilt immunity to it. This is how it goes, as it has gone in the past.

We cannot let this pass.

Yes. This.

Just as I was posting......

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 10:16 am

From mainlymacro.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 10:29 am

The neverendum has brought out the worst in people,but it is has also brought out the best.That will continue,whatever the result.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 10:30 am

Vote Remain tomorrow please

https://spinninghugo.wordpress.com/2016 ... ean-union/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 10:30 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:If Remain win (and maybe even if they don't) Gove is finished as a politician. Unbelievable.

Good morning all. Had a tremendous evening yesterday, watching the very wonderful Daniel Kitson perform his one man (and 15 ipod) play "Polyphony". If you are in the Bristol area this week go & see it, it's brilliant.

Don't think he'll be too bothered. Murdoch obviously thinks he's useful, hence the £600k advance from Harper Collins some years ago for a biography of a politician very few people will have heard of, which Gove hasn't finished yet.
There have been rumours in Private Eye of late that Paul Dacre, long standing Mail editor is ready for retirement, but hates the natural successor (editor of Mail on Sunday). Gove could be just the man to take over. And he'd get to work with his wife every day! In addiation, Gove is a good chum of Rothermere, the publisher of the Mail.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 10:38 am

SpinningHugo wrote:Vote Remain tomorrow please

https://spinninghugo.wordpress.com/2016 ... ean-union/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hello. Long time no see.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 10:44 am

SpinningHugo wrote:Vote Remain tomorrow please

https://spinninghugo.wordpress.com/2016 ... ean-union/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hello there, Hugo.

On this, we agree.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 10:51 am

I know many of those voting Leave won't see it, but Gove is coming out with some real rubbish.
Surely if Leave had genuine reasons and arguments he'd be using them. Not making it up as he goes along?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 10:58 am

PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

I'm thoroughly sick of hearing about "unelected Brussels bureaucrats" (also known as civil servants). Why doesn't someone point out that the wheels here are kept turning by civil servants - who are also "unelected" and largely not household names. It's the MEPs and MPs who are elected and if nobody knows who they are (and many people in this country don't even know who the members of the British cabinet are, let alone backbench MPs) then it's mostly because they're not sufficiently interested.

Neena Gill - Labour MEP
Siôn Simon - Labour MEP
Both send a reasonable number of e-mail keeping me informed, not inundated.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 11:01 am

ohsocynical wrote:I know many of those voting Leave won't see it, but Gove is coming out with some real rubbish.
Surely if Leave had genuine reasons and arguments he'd be using them. Not making it up as he goes along?

I can imagine some undecided voters seeing that Telegraph front page today, and wincing.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 11:06 am

From Private Eye

[1] Brand new NHS, with new hospitals, millions of nurses from all over the world except Europe, and a brand new cure for cancer.

[2] Brand new transport system with high speed trains going all over the world except for Europe.

[3] Free money for poor people.

[4] Free money for rich people.

[5] Sunshine for everyone seven days a week, twelve months a year, including nights.

[6] Bluebirds over the White cliffs of Dover.

[7] A nightingale singing in Berkeley Square.

[8] Raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens.

[9] Brown paper packages wrapped up in string.

[10] Things as they used to be in the good old days.

Signed M. Gove. PM.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 11:24 am

The latest YouGov survey, taken after last night's televised debate, gives remain a one point lead.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 11:28 am

I didn't think Digger could go up any further in my estimations after seeing him play and hearing him eloquently speaking on matters relating to football (both on the field and off), most recently via The Anfield Wrap. I was wrong. Up a notch he goes.

John Barnes: Gove says I’ll be voting leave. He’s wrong – and here’s why

http://gu.com/p/4mdq6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 11:30 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:The latest YouGov survey, taken after last night's televised debate, gives remain a one point lead.

Hope it proves to be a bit more conclusive than that, still a remain is a remain however small.

There should also be an understanding that the result is final for at least a generation.

I am to be honest, after the Scottish vote, a dismal GE result and EU vote referendumded out.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 11:33 am

Gove is having a bit of a nightmare in the last few days isn't he?

Not that I am complaining

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 11:39 am

letsskiptotheleft wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:The latest YouGov survey, taken after last night's televised debate, gives remain a one point lead.

Hope it proves to be a bit more conclusive than that, still a remain is a remain however small.

There should also be an understanding that the result is final for at least a generation.

I am to be honest, after the Scottish vote, a dismal GE result and EU vote referendumded out.

I wish. Given that 27% of the Leave voters are so convinced that the result will be fixed against them by the security services that they are taking pens with them so their vote can't be changed, a Remain result won't be final for five seconds.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 11:44 am

letsskiptotheleft wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:The latest YouGov survey, taken after last night's televised debate, gives remain a one point lead.

Hope it proves to be a bit more conclusive than that, still a remain is a remain however small.

There should also be an understanding that the result is final for at least a generation.

I am to be honest, after the Scottish vote, a dismal GE result and EU vote referendumded out.

The problem is that if the result is narrow (much less than 60:40 IMO) the Leave campaign will be crying foul - as reported here yesterday, already 50% of people intending to vote Leave think that the referendum is rigged against them. Coupled with anything unpopular coming from the EU, and the refrain from Farage et al will be "If the British people had known about this at the time, they would have voted Leave. We need another vote now".

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 11:45 am

StephenDolan wrote:I didn't think Digger could go up any further in my estimations after seeing him play and hearing him eloquently speaking on matters relating to football (both on the field and off), most recently via The Anfield Wrap. I was wrong. Up a notch he goes.

John Barnes: Gove says I’ll be voting leave. He’s wrong – and here’s why

http://gu.com/p/4mdq6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wonderful, wonderful article. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. I might have missed it otherwise.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 12:15 pm

100 days after Brexit... and this is what Britain looks like
David Cameron has resigned and Boris is in Number 10. It’s the day after the Tory party conference and the troubled Prime Minister has a cocktail of economic and social issues in his in-tray (and, yes, okay, it's 105 days)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/105-d ... 94056.html

They've got Boris down to a T. But John Humphrys?