Saturday 25th and Sunday 26th June 2016

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 3:14 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote: That is why Corbyn has to be supported against the likes of Coffey, Hodge and Bradshaw.....

Who can replace him?
Dan Jarvis.

None of the tabloids would dare go against him with his background. Also has an MA in Conflict, Security & Development from King's College London.

Last time he needed to put family first so presumably needs to be convinced to run this time.

The other one is Keir Starmer. May be too much of the "metropolitan elite" to attract back northern working class votes.

PR person....comes across as a lightweight...I am not someone who hero worshipers soldiers as their skills are not that transferrable to the normal world. He has also shown a certain indication to support the Blair wing of the party

Would doubt I could support someone like him - the only benefit he could have is because he wouldn't be so easy to attack - word of caution though - they said the same thing about John Kerry!

Starmer is a much more interesting proposition from what I have seen but there is no indication he will stand and I am still not completely what he stands for

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 3:17 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Good points. The snag is that every time a Labour politician makes a media appearance or has a newspaper interview, somehow it always ends up with Corbyn.

Well, yes, that's the problem isn't it.

ohsocynical wrote:Frank Field is a good example...He should have been having a go at the Tories with all cylinders firing.

Why would Frank Field ever attack his own side?

Meow.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 3:21 pm

Willow904 wrote:Corbyn really isn't that relevant right now. Why are the media obsessing about a couple of grumpy Labour backbenchers? They're the opposition ffs. This wouldn't be a story if any other party were involved.

In the meantime, where on earth is our Chancellor? We are facing stormy economic times as a result of a momentous vote and he hasn't made a single statement. He has disappeared and the media haven't even asked where he is, what's he doing to reassure markets, what are the implications of the Moody's downgrade etc, etc. So many questions for our Chancellor yet not a single journo anxious to ask them of him. WTF?

Is this what media are doing? I'm unsurprised. I woke late today and knew all wasn't right because it was too quiet. Even the motorway was subdued. Where I live, nearly 70% of those voting voted to leave the EU. I've not read, heard or seen too much media - you know me, I don't. I get confused and anxious confronted with incessant noise, images moving fast, unexplained statements from who knows who. I like it here on flythenest. It's manageable information content. I can choose to click the link and read more.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 3:23 pm

A Labour government is likely the best choice for the country now. But that's been true for six years.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 3:25 pm

Why is the Guardian focusing on Labour?

The country is on the verge of a virtual meltdown, the EU was caught by surprise on Friday but there will be a concerted effort next week to evoke A50 and I am sure Cameron will be hauled over the coals to do so

Can you just imagine Angela saying....well you can wait if you want but in that case access to single market will mean Schengen and that passporting will not be on the table....we will announce this after the meeting unless A50 is invoked

Why is the Guardian not asking 'who is governing us and where are they?'

We are getting away with the vacuum at the weekend but Monday may show the markets are not so patient

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 3:27 pm

mbc1955 wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:This isn't going to end well...

Isn't anyone going to break it to them that being in or out of the EU has nothing to do with it? That they've been lied to all along?

BUT THEY'RE YOUR FAMILY MEMBERS

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 3:28 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:Why is the Guardian focusing on Labour?

The country is on the verge of a virtual meltdown, the EU was caught by surprise on Friday but there will be a concerted effort next week to evoke A50 and I am sure Cameron will be hauled over the coals to do so

Can you just imagine Angela saying....well you can wait if you want but in that case access to single market will mean Schengen and that passporting will not be on the table....we will announce this after the meeting unless A50 is invoked

Why is the Guardian not asking 'who is governing us and where are they?'

We are getting away with the vacuum at the weekend but Monday may show the markets are not so patient

(my bold)

Exactly.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 3:31 pm

GetYou wrote:
Willow904 wrote:Corbyn really isn't that relevant right now. Why are the media obsessing about a couple of grumpy Labour backbenchers? They're the opposition ffs. This wouldn't be a story if any other party were involved.

In the meantime, where on earth is our Chancellor? We are facing stormy economic times as a result of a momentous vote and he hasn't made a single statement. He has disappeared and the media haven't even asked where he is, what's he doing to reassure markets, what are the implications of the Moody's downgrade etc, etc. So many questions for our Chancellor yet not a single journo anxious to ask them of him. WTF?
The MSM reminding us how fucking useless they are. I blame them almost as much as the Tories for this disaster.

I don't. Labour have told the truth with as much exposure as mainstream media allowed them.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 3:33 pm

martinson wrote:
yahyah wrote:To be fair to all those taken in, 'thick', open to hearing what they wanted to hear, whatever they were, the whole thing about the EU is so complicated, so technical, that most people will go glassy eyed at the detail.

That's why is was so wrong to have a referendum on such an important issue.
Our elected law makers, with the help of civil servants, have knowledge of EU systems and laws, & the expertise to debate and vote on these issues.

A straight in/out referendum was always going to be a problem.

The reason many people don't vote is they find it all too confusing, or difficult to understand.
Leave got their campaigning right (wrong morally, but right politically), getting those base messages out, appealing to fear of immigration.
Their real genius was the way they got so many voters to believe that it was Remain who was scaremongering.

I lost count of the number of 'ordinary voters' vox popped who said they were voting Leave because Remain were scaremongering.
I suppose this is modern propaganda. Churn out the sound bytes to see what catches on, support that with massive publicity and rebuttal never on the same scale. Bingo you win. Terrifying really.

Yes.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 3:33 pm

Just reading the politics live blog. Apparently, to stop the Labour Party from 'slowly bleed[ing] to death' the PLP is going to slit its own throat so that it can rapidly haemorrhage to death instead.

Good grief. Just what do they think will happen to the PLP f they go for a putsch now? They'll gain hardly any new voters and instead lose hundreds of thousands. The Membership will revolt and shrink to a size even smaller than it was before Corbyn inspired it's significant growth.

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 3:36 pm

Willow904 wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:One and a half million votes calling for another referendum. I don't think there's a chance in hell of it happening, but supposing there was. Wouldn't the delay in any sort of action from the government considerably lessen the chances because of the damage it's doing to money markets?
Cameron has already announced that the government isn't going to even think about leaving the EU until they've had a leadership contest, thus guaranteeing uncertainty until at least October. They seem to have no interest in economic stability at all.

There's a certain method to that madness in that three months of chaos and staring into the abyss might change the public mood round to where it's saying, 'hang on a minute, now that we've thought about it (for the first time)...'

That by then we'll be in irreparable chaos doesn't come into the calculations.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 3:38 pm

gilsey wrote:I find myself less emotional about Brexit than I was about the GE, probably because remain was never a positive choice, Hope didn't really appear, and as we know, we can take despair, it's Hope we can't stand.

I'm much less concerned about the long term political implications than the short term economic ones, not least because they may be so serious as to make it impossible to see where we're going.

Yes.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 3:38 pm

I think I could go with Keir Starmer. Dan Jarvis is a no-no for me.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 3:39 pm

PorFavor wrote:I think I could go with Keir Starmer. Dan Jarvis is a no-no for me.

Twenty minutes ago:

Two backbench MPs, Margaret Hodge and Ann Coffey, tabled a vote of no confidence in Corbyn on Friday in the aftermath of the
shock referendum result, blaming what they saw as his lacklustre campaign for a remain vote.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/liv ... 24d34f60b9" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Why? What now then? I'm asking Hodge and Coffey, by the way, PorFavor, not you.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 3:39 pm

Of course the penny has just dropped. Chilcott is out in a couple of weeks.

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 3:40 pm

citizenJA wrote:
mbc1955 wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:This isn't going to end well...

Isn't anyone going to break it to them that being in or out of the EU has nothing to do with it? That they've been lied to all along?
BUT THEY'RE YOUR FAMILY MEMBERS

If they'd been my family members, I'd have told them this a bloody long time ago and in no uncertain terms and I would be telling them that when they find out what they're really done they could expect me to be screaming 'I told you so and I have no effing sympathy for you' down their ears every five seconds.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 3:48 pm

Willow904 wrote:
HindleA wrote:http://jackofkent.com/2016/06/why-the-a ... important/

Why the Article 50 notification is important
Thanks for linking this. I've bookmarked it for later reference. My first instinct was that the Tories in their duplicitous way would ignore why people voted out and would do a Norway type deal. What I didn't consider was that they may have the bare-faced brazeness to ignore the referendum completely and simply not leave. And yet they could, couldn't they? The media are already laying the groundwork by highlighting all the people who have changed their minds. A u-turn is already being prepped. They were careful when preparing the referendum legislation to make it non-binding, a deliberate, calculated choice. The person who chose to hold the referendum and declared he would be bound by its result has resigned. The referendum was set up as advisory and we are now bring primed to be grateful to a Tory government who sensibly chose not be advised by it for the sake of the economy. We chose to leave the EU, but we haven't left the EU, we haven't even been given a date for leaving the EU, just a "maybe in October". The EU can't make us leave. Only the UK government can decide to leave and they haven't yet. They are utter, utter duplicitous bastards and it's starting to dawn on me just how much I may have underestimated their contempt for democracy. We will probably be returning a Tory government in 2020 in grateful gratitude to them for not letting that nasty Nigel Farage and bigoted Labour voters take us out of the EU. And I'm only half joking.

This is an important post, thank you, Willow904. I understand better now. That's correct, isn't it? Only UK government can flip the switch to leave the EU and that hasn't been yet?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 3:51 pm

ephemerid wrote:OGRPPFGTCC has decided he doesn't want to be captain of a ship he has caused to list if not sink.
"Why should I do the hard shit?" is what he is alleged to have said.

Before the referendum, this was the state of the nation under six years of his premiership, lest we forget -
A series of budgets that didn't make sense, a "long-term economic plan" (TM) that has doubled the national debt;
Creeping privatisation of our national health service, our education system, and our criminal justice system;
Swingeing cuts to council budgets, police, armed forces, border control, flood defences, and green policies;
Closures of libraries, SureStart centres; day care for elderly and disabled people, respite care, home help - cut;
Massive increases in waiting lists in NHS England, all targets missed, A&Es overloaded, and doctors on strike;
Massive spending on "welfare" reform, billions wasted, and claimants now so poor they need food banks or starve;
Lie after lie after lie - on every single subject.

Since the referendum, to that list we can now add absolute bloody chaos thanks to his self-interest and sheer cowardice as he runs away.

This poor excuse for a man is responsible for all the above, ably abetted by the rest of his sorry government who he has left behind to sort out the mess he's made of it all.

And some people are calling for Jeremy Corbyn to go.

FFS.

Another important post for me, yep.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 3:51 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:One thing this campaign did do - finally reveal that Alan Johnson is almost entirely a media myth.

For those who don't know, *he* was actually meant to be running Labour's "in" campaign (not Corbyn)

My e-mails from him always made that very clear.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 3:54 pm

Willow904 wrote:
mbc1955 wrote:
Willow904 wrote: Thanks for linking this. I've bookmarked it for later reference. My first instinct was that the Tories in their duplicitous way would ignore why people voted out and would do a Norway type deal. What I didn't consider was that they may have the bare-faced brazeness to ignore the referendum completely and simply not leave. And yet they could, couldn't they? The media are already laying the groundwork by highlighting all the people who have changed their minds. A u-turn is already being prepped. They were careful when preparing the referendum legislation to make it non-binding, a deliberate, calculated choice. The person who chose to hold the referendum and declared he would be bound by its result has resigned. The referendum was set up as advisory and we are now bring primed to be grateful to a Tory government who sensibly chose not be advised by it for the sake of the economy. We chose to leave the EU, but we haven't left the EU, we haven't even been given a date for leaving the EU, just a "maybe in October". The EU can't make us leave. Only the UK government can decide to leave and they haven't yet. They are utter, utter duplicitous bastards and it's starting to dawn on me just how much I may have underestimated their contempt for democracy. We will probably be returning a Tory government in 2020 in grateful gratitude to them for not letting that nasty Nigel Farage and bigoted Labour voters take us out of the EU. And I'm only half joking.
Perfectly plausible scenario, and maybe even one that's preferable. I would really like to see how the vote would turn out if we re-ran the Referendum this coming Thursday, because I think that there would be a shift in enough people's thinking to reverse the result, maybe to the same margin.

But it doesn't really matter. The genie is out of the bottle now,and the Government forgot the essential factor in letting genie's out: always, always, always make your third wish that the genie go back in the bottle again.
I just hope Labour keep an eye on Article 50 and are conscious of potential double crosses. The complete lack of any media interest or interviews or even mentions of the majority of Tory supporters who voted "out" is deeply concerning to me. We keep being taken to Labour areas and treated to interviews with poorly educated "out" voters yet statistically speaking a more representative "out" voter would surely be a comfortably off Tory pensioner from rural England. A duplicitous Tory failure to leave the EU is appealing to me, but I also fear their treachery and the propaganda from the media. Like you, I wonder how this can end any way but badly. People are angry, frightened and confused and we have no leadership. Corbyn just made an ok speech and Nicola Sturgeon has just been on as well, but where the hell is the government? I'm getting a really bad feeling about this. Atlantic Bridge types like Liam Fox popping up; stalled TTIP annoying corporate America; a half in, half out UK destabilising the EU. I'm wondering who benefits from all of this and I'm not liking where my questions are taking me. Throw in a conscious choice by Cameron not to appoint an official deputy who would automatically accede on his resignation......

Where's the emoticon for a tin foil hat?

We don't need the tin foil hat emoticon, Willow904, we're looking at the facts here and you've written about some.

TR'sGhost · Post by **TR'sGhost** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 3:54 pm

ephemerid wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
yahyah wrote:To be fair to Cameron, Radio 4 reported it as he didn't want to do all the hard slog on Brexit then have to 'hand it on a plate' to Boris Johnson.
Can't help feeling some sympathy.
Boris Johnson helped create the chaos, he wants to sit back ruffling his hair and then cruise in to take the victor's laurels when the dirty work has been done.
He's a spoiled, lazy, arrogant, know nothing, thick s**t.

It's his fault we had a referendum, but oh dear, never mind about his duty to the country, Dave doesn't want to do the job. Why doesn't the little f****r admit he doesn't know how to and p**s off.
I agree with this - he said, originally, that he'd stay on and deal with the aftermath whatever the vote turned out to be.

Now he's running away. There are those who think he has done the only decent thing he's ever done for this country by resigning - I'm more inclined to think he is too lazy to do the hard yards, cares so little about what he has unleashed, and is so obsessed with his own image that he won't countenance the humiliation that is coming from the EU.

Not the first time he has demonstrated cowardice.

I'm flying a kite here of course, but....

If, as seems our general view, Cameron boo-boo'd woth the referendum because when he made the promise he never expected he's have to go through with it, is Boris in the same situation?

Attaches himself to Leave campaign which is popular with grassroots Tories, but like lots of other very well informed people expecting Remain to win by a narrow margin. Which it does.

Tory backwoods go incandescent, Dave forced out and in comes Boris as the self-proclaimed saviour of the euro-sceptics promising that unlike Dave he'll stand no nonsense from the EU which we "sadly" find ourselves still hitched to and claiming he's the only person trusted enough by both Tory factions to hold the party together.

Then in a single day the wheels came off Cameron's plan, Boris's plan and the UK's economy.

Or, looked at in another way, would you want to be Prime Minister for the next few years? When commercial lawyers are saying things like unravelling the UK law from the EU could easily use the entire resources of the civil service for several years and will include major constitutional fights with the devolved parliaments and assemblies.

Then there's the very real risk of HMG being sued if it fails to hold to any treaty obligations until after exit is complete. But to have a legal system in place at exit the UK will have to revoke and/or ignore treaty obligations before exit. Oh dear.

Incredible though it may sound, it seems despite four decades of euro-scepticism and demands for exit from the EU, none of the leading outers have ever put together a plan for exit beyond "Look into my eyes...... you are feeling very sleepy....... Repeat after me 'It will all be wonderful'."

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 3:57 pm

I don't understand why there's this delay over Article 50 and all, I'd have thought people would be chomping at the bit to get on with negotiating all these wonderful, instant non-EU trade deals that are out there just waiting for us to sign up to.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 3:57 pm

citizenJA wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
HindleA wrote:http://jackofkent.com/2016/06/why-the-a ... important/

Why the Article 50 notification is important
Thanks for linking this. I've bookmarked it for later reference. My first instinct was that the Tories in their duplicitous way would ignore why people voted out and would do a Norway type deal. What I didn't consider was that they may have the bare-faced brazeness to ignore the referendum completely and simply not leave. And yet they could, couldn't they? The media are already laying the groundwork by highlighting all the people who have changed their minds. A u-turn is already being prepped. They were careful when preparing the referendum legislation to make it non-binding, a deliberate, calculated choice. The person who chose to hold the referendum and declared he would be bound by its result has resigned. The referendum was set up as advisory and we are now bring primed to be grateful to a Tory government who sensibly chose not be advised by it for the sake of the economy. We chose to leave the EU, but we haven't left the EU, we haven't even been given a date for leaving the EU, just a "maybe in October". The EU can't make us leave. Only the UK government can decide to leave and they haven't yet. They are utter, utter duplicitous bastards and it's starting to dawn on me just how much I may have underestimated their contempt for democracy. We will probably be returning a Tory government in 2020 in grateful gratitude to them for not letting that nasty Nigel Farage and bigoted Labour voters take us out of the EU. And I'm only half joking.
This is an important post, thank you, Willow904. I understand better now. That's correct, isn't it? Only UK government can flip the switch to leave the EU and that hasn't been yet?

The wording is not very good and it seems that the British complicated way of making decisions is muddying the waters

The PM invokes A50 under Royal Prerogative I believe and so both the referendum and any Parliamentary vote is also non-binding on this

This will infuriate the EU and we will move from the legal side (although I bet you they are looking at all the options here) tot he political one

I believe that the EU will want a commitment from from Cameron next week for a timetable - possibly via the Parliamentary vote. There is no way they are going to wait until October

I think it will come from some threats, arm twisting and bullying

If the other 27 decide to start the process unilaterally then what will the UK Government do - go crying to the ECJ???

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 3:57 pm

NonOxCol wrote:Afternoon. Still in a blue funk.

Leavers on the radio was my theme for this morning. Instead of Danny Baker I heard Nicky Campbell falling back on cliches about "superstates", an inarticulate caller who couldn't make his case without resorting to "take back control", and a reasonably articulate one who couldn't do so without the words "faceless bureaucrats" and some sentimental guff about democracy which was adeptly destroyed (for everyone, basically, not just this chap) by the Phillip Collins piece yesterday. And later there was a jocular xenophobe who has a small apartment in southern Italy, and that has taught him that the Italians, Greeks, Spanish and Portuguese all take four hours off a day ergo the EU is useless.

Then you can go on Twitter and find no shortage of jaw-dropping gems like these:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But apparently I'm now a "hand-wringing liberal university type" snob for pointing this out.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Then there's (don't fall over in amazement) Peter Allen. Given the story that 1,000,000 people had signed the petition for a second referendum, his response was to say "I'm not really sure how that would work... the fact is it was one person, one vote, we chose to leave and we all have to get on with it." Admittedly I have not had Radio 5 on very much (all the way home yesterday afternoon for 1.5 hours, and most of this morning), but I am yet to hear any mention of regional EU funding and the possible effect of its withdrawal; Article 50 and the possible implications of delay; the shock horror possibility that it might have been a ruse, a calculated coup d'état, and that might be more important than the actual result; or indeed any questions over the decision to call it in the first place, or the quality of information available to people entrusted with a decision so momentous.

Nothing complicated, just a blind gratitude for utterly foolish plebiscites and excitement about future leadership contests. 90% of my opinion-shaping information has come from the internet. C4 News was good, although like earlier posters I would have preferred some views from well-off leavers in the Tory shires as well as strugglers in Romford and Barnsley.

Wonderful post.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 3:58 pm

TR'sGhost wrote:
ephemerid wrote:
ohsocynical wrote: He's a spoiled, lazy, arrogant, know nothing, thick s**t.

It's his fault we had a referendum, but oh dear, never mind about his duty to the country, Dave doesn't want to do the job. Why doesn't the little f****r admit he doesn't know how to and p**s off.
I agree with this - he said, originally, that he'd stay on and deal with the aftermath whatever the vote turned out to be.

Now he's running away. There are those who think he has done the only decent thing he's ever done for this country by resigning - I'm more inclined to think he is too lazy to do the hard yards, cares so little about what he has unleashed, and is so obsessed with his own image that he won't countenance the humiliation that is coming from the EU.

Not the first time he has demonstrated cowardice.
I'm flying a kite here of course, but....

If, as seems our general view, Cameron boo-boo'd woth the referendum because when he made the promise he never expected he's have to go through with it, is Boris in the same situation?

Attaches himself to Leave campaign which is popular with grassroots Tories, but like lots of other very well informed people expecting Remain to win by a narrow margin. Which it does.

Tory backwoods go incandescent, Dave forced out and in comes Boris as the self-proclaimed saviour of the euro-sceptics promising that unlike Dave he'll stand no nonsense from the EU which we "sadly" find ourselves still hitched to and claiming he's the only person trusted enough by both Tory factions to hold the party together.

Then in a single day the wheels came off Cameron's plan, Boris's plan and the UK's economy.

Or, looked at in another way, would you want to be Prime Minister for the next few years? When commercial lawyers are saying things like unravelling the UK law from the EU could easily use the entire resources of the civil service for several years and will include major constitutional fights with the devolved parliaments and assemblies.

Then there's the very real risk of HMG being sued if it fails to hold to any treaty obligations until after exit is complete. But to have a legal system in place at exit the UK will have to revoke and/or ignore treaty obligations before exit. Oh dear.

Incredible though it may sound, it seems despite four decades of euro-scepticism and demands for exit from the EU, none of the leading outers have ever put together a plan for exit beyond "Look into my eyes...... you are feeling very sleepy....... Repeat after me 'It will all be wonderful'."

Stop it, you're just making me even angrier.

Oh, and Boris has f*cked off to play cricket today apparently.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 3:58 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:

"Who's in charge here?"
"Er...no-one"

Shouldn't the Cabinet Secretary as the civil servant with the highest seniority start to make his presence felt at times like these?

One would think so, yes.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 4:02 pm

Incredible though it may sound, it seems despite four decades of euro-scepticism and demands for exit from the EU, none of the leading outers have ever put together a plan for exit beyond "Look into my eyes...... you are feeling very sleepy....... Repeat after me 'It will all be wonderful'."

And further to that:

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Regarding national embarrassments and humiliations, at least Suez wasn't greeted with mass cheering and back-slapping.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 4:03 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Lord (Jonathan) Hill, British EU Commissioner, has just resigned (BBC News).
His statement is interesting - check out the final bit

Like many people here and in the UK, I am obviously very disappointed about the result of the referendum. I wanted it to end differently and had hoped that Britain would want to play a role in arguing for an outward-looking, flexible, competitive, free trade Europe. But the British people took a different decision, and that is the way that democracy works.
As we move to a new phase, I don't believe it is right that I should carry on as the British Commissioner as though nothing had happened. In line with what I discussed with the President of the Commission some weeks ago, I have therefore told him that I shall stand down. At the same time, there needs to be an orderly handover, so I have said that I will work with him to make sure that happens in the weeks ahead.

I am very grateful to Jean-Claude Juncker for giving me the chance to work on financial services and for the opportunity to help support jobs and growth in Europe. I was also glad to have worked with other Commissioners in trying to take forward our programme of reform, and to have had the chance to work with excellent officials at DG FISMA and in my own team.

I came to Brussels as someone who had campaigned against Britain joining the euro and who was sceptical about Europe. I will leave it certain that, despite its frustrations, our membership was good for our place in the world and good for our economy. But what is done cannot be undone and now we have to get on with making our new relationship with Europe work as well as possible.

Does he understand he's fundamentally contradicted himself? His resignation speech sounds like Dave's. It's not in any way reassuring or clear.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 4:05 pm

TR'sGhost wrote:
ephemerid wrote:
ohsocynical wrote: He's a spoiled, lazy, arrogant, know nothing, thick s**t.

It's his fault we had a referendum, but oh dear, never mind about his duty to the country, Dave doesn't want to do the job. Why doesn't the little f****r admit he doesn't know how to and p**s off.
I agree with this - he said, originally, that he'd stay on and deal with the aftermath whatever the vote turned out to be.

Now he's running away. There are those who think he has done the only decent thing he's ever done for this country by resigning - I'm more inclined to think he is too lazy to do the hard yards, cares so little about what he has unleashed, and is so obsessed with his own image that he won't countenance the humiliation that is coming from the EU.

Not the first time he has demonstrated cowardice.
I'm flying a kite here of course, but....

If, as seems our general view, Cameron boo-boo'd woth the referendum because when he made the promise he never expected he's have to go through with it, is Boris in the same situation?

Attaches himself to Leave campaign which is popular with grassroots Tories, but like lots of other very well informed people expecting Remain to win by a narrow margin. Which it does.

Tory backwoods go incandescent, Dave forced out and in comes Boris as the self-proclaimed saviour of the euro-sceptics promising that unlike Dave he'll stand no nonsense from the EU which we "sadly" find ourselves still hitched to and claiming he's the only person trusted enough by both Tory factions to hold the party together.

Then in a single day the wheels came off Cameron's plan, Boris's plan and the UK's economy.

Or, looked at in another way, would you want to be Prime Minister for the next few years? When commercial lawyers are saying things like unravelling the UK law from the EU could easily use the entire resources of the civil service for several years and will include major constitutional fights with the devolved parliaments and assemblies.

Then there's the very real risk of HMG being sued if it fails to hold to any treaty obligations until after exit is complete. But to have a legal system in place at exit the UK will have to revoke and/or ignore treaty obligations before exit. Oh dear.

Incredible though it may sound, it seems despite four decades of euro-scepticism and demands for exit from the EU, none of the leading outers have ever put together a plan for exit beyond "Look into my eyes...... you are feeling very sleepy....... Repeat after me 'It will all be wonderful'."

Yes, I know. Even if they've been caught short, you'd think that at least they'd have had something ready to be going on with to start the ball rolling. How long can they keep this up without reprisals from somewhere. Even their best mates (who, themselves, expected a different result) can't be best pleased at all about this period of suspended animation.

TR'sGhost · Post by **TR'sGhost** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 4:06 pm

yahyah wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Rachael ‏@Rachael_Swindon 9h9 hours ago

The Leave campaign are saying tonight they never promised immigration will come down. So the point of Leave's immigration rhetoric was what?
They've unleashed the mob.

Who is going to control the mindless twerps Bill Cash was praising, those not responsive to 'reason' or 'discipline', and the racist thugs, when they realise they were conned ?

Good question. Though "mainstream" leavers often seem to insist there are no racist thugs and leavers are all very reasonable people indeed. It's the other 48% of the population who are irrational dupes and anti-British.

The friend's son I mentioned the other day did vote for exit. This morning he's rejoicing because the Daily Mail reports interest rates may have to be reduced so "mortgages might be cheaper, hurrah!"

That he works for a company that does a lot of trade with the EU doesn't worry him in the least because everything will be great now.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 4:10 pm

Decent People Latest:

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citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 4:11 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
Rebecca wrote: Good lord.
Trained up a replacement(who?)and be party leader,fighting off the media,blairites and the tories,referendum in 9 months?
Don't you think that is expecting a bit much?
No - not really.
That's John McDonnell. Allegedly.

The paradox of this infuriates me. On the one hand Corbyn gets criticised for not being prominent enough and on the other he gets criticised for not preparing the ground for a successor, which by necessity means letting others hog the spotlight at times. Well, he's been doing the latter rather more than he gets credit for because he actually lets other MPs - rightly - get airtime, including those opposed to him like Kinnock and Eagle... which is on the job training as a potential successor. That's everyone from the up and comings like De Piero and Creasy to the old lags like McDonnell and Benn. We've seen more positive action from front and back bench Labour MPs in the past 9 months than we saw during the entirety of Miliband's tenure.

Am I the only person who has noticed this? Leadership isn't just about being the only person to be seen on the TV.

Good point.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 4:11 pm

Much of the "blame"-of course blame assumes an irrefutably correct decision on the "ill-educated";even if you accept that level of education has a direct correspondence to level of understanding on a particular issue,which I in no way do,this is unadultered cack.It always happens of course,the childish response of it didn't go the "correct" way.I,personally treat this simplistic "answer" in the same manner as I do as the related "Daily Mail readers vote accordingly to what they are told".Stereotypical nonsenses,denigration according to newspaper reading habits and/or level of education is as pernicious as any other,and simply wrong and only entranches positions.I happened to vote Remain,decorum in "defeat" would be somewhat welcome.The Leave campaign was largely based on hate,bile,complications made into simplicity,sadly the response by many that "lost"has many of the same attributes.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 4:13 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:PS. And this reminds me of what I believe was the most fundamental error of Miliband - not ensuring that others in the Party got their time in the limelight, not ensuring that voters could relate to at least one person in the Party, if they could not relate to him. It made the election all about Miliband, not about the policies.

Edit: of course the other fundamental error was that many of those others - Twigg, Hunt, Bradshaw, etc - were completely flipping useless.

A Labour leader does what you've rightly identified Corbyn doing - allowing other Labour MPs to do their job - Corbyn's accused of not being enough a leader. No win.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 4:15 pm

Willow904 wrote:
GetYou wrote:
Willow904 wrote:Corbyn really isn't that relevant right now. Why are the media obsessing about a couple of grumpy Labour backbenchers? They're the opposition ffs. This wouldn't be a story if any other party were involved.

In the meantime, where on earth is our Chancellor? We are facing stormy economic times as a result of a momentous vote and he hasn't made a single statement. He has disappeared and the media haven't even asked where he is, what's he doing to reassure markets, what are the implications of the Moody's downgrade etc, etc. So many questions for our Chancellor yet not a single journo anxious to ask them of him. WTF?
The MSM reminding us how fucking useless they are. I blame them almost as much as the Tories for this disaster.
This is me I'm that angry with the MSM right now.

The country has spoken but the stupid, stupid man who asked the question has run away. The chancellor is awol. Article 50 hasn't been invoked. The EU can't make us leave and the ongoing uncertainty threatens to tear it apart so what are our media doing? They're sitting around going " ooh, I wonder who the next Tory PM might be" !?

Yes.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 4:15 pm

I suppose we should be used to how the Tories work by now.
Make a massive cock up, or be involved in a scandal --- Lie low for a couple of weeks, hide yourself away and with the compliance of your right wing press friends, ignore it. Pretend it isn't there and it'll go away. Every single time. Except this time I'm pretty sure it won't.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 4:15 pm

HindleA wrote:Much of the "blame"-of course blame assumes an irrefutably correct decision on the "ill-educated";even if you accept that level of education has a direct correspondence to level of understanding on a particular issue,which I in no way do,this is unadultered cack.It always happens of course,the childish response of it didn't go the "correct" way.I,personally treat this simplistic "answer" in the same manner as I do as the related "Daily Mail readers vote accordingly to what they are told".Stereotypical nonsenses,denigration according to newspaper reading habits and/or level of education is as pernicious as any other,and simply wrong and only entranches positions.I happened to vote Remain,decorum in "defeat" would be somewhat welcome.The Leave campaign was largely based on hate,bile,complications made into simplicity,sadly the response by many that "lost"has many of the same attributes.

Here's my polite response to that.

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citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 4:16 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Can we demand an election due to the non-appearance and inaction of elected cabinet? Surely, even if for the sake of the money markets it's rapidly becoming a national emergency? Is there anything that covers an event like this?

Good question!

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 4:17 pm

I can't work out who, or how, but is someobody making a lot of money out of all this instability?

I think it was Willow904 who alluded to this possibility - but it's been niggling away at me for some time.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 4:19 pm

Here's another polite response from the same tweeter:

Leave people calling Remain people 'sore losers' like it's a game of Monopoly rather than an utter whirligig of shit. Christ.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 4:19 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
yahyah wrote:Maybe that's where Labour need to start from in rebuilding support.

How has the working person got so divorced from any basic level of political consciousness as to believe right wingers care about public services and the NHS ? Why did they not recognise that the NHS was being used, in conjunction with anti-immigration rhetoric, as a political tool ?
I made the mistake of thinking if I explained the truth to people, that'd be enough.
- from The Ragged-Trousered Philanthropists

Good-afternoon, everyone.
I think that is the direction Labour have been and should be moving. That is where Corbyn has been important. Whether or not he stays is irrelevant, whatever happens that direction needs to be maintained

The problem is with the critics is that they want to take Labour in another direction and focus on the symptom (anti-immigration) rather than the cause - austerity and wealth inequality

That is why Corbyn has to be supported against the likes of Coffey, Hodge and Bradshaw.....

Who can replace him?

Has he gone?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 4:20 pm

Nicola Sturgeon is going to consult experts. That's so passé.

Edited to add -

And if I read Michael Gove aright, tantamount to treason.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 4:26 pm

Willow904 wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:One and a half million votes calling for another referendum. I don't think there's a chance in hell of it happening, but supposing there was. Wouldn't the delay in any sort of action from the government considerably lessen the chances because of the damage it's doing to money markets?
Cameron has already announced that the government isn't going to even think about leaving the EU until they've had a leadership contest, thus guaranteeing uncertainty until at least October. They seem to have no interest in economic stability at all.

Big business won't wait for that.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 4:27 pm

PorFavor wrote:I can't work out who, or how, but is someobody making a lot of money out of all this instability?

I think it was Willow904 who alluded to this possibility - but it's been niggling away at me for some time.

I think it's a safe bet that Nigel "My friends in banking have told me Remain have won" Farage may well have been doing just that. One suspects that he and those 'friends' were hedging on the £ rising after he said that and raked it in when, lo and behold, the £ tanked when Brexit became a possibility.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 4:27 pm

mbc1955 wrote: If they'd been my family members, I'd have told them this a bloody long time ago and in no uncertain terms and I would be telling them that when they find out what they're really done they could expect me to be screaming 'I told you so and I have no effing sympathy for you' down their ears every five seconds.

(cJA edit)

I meant my response directly to the CAP LOCK warrior tweeting that mass immigration to the UK must stop.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 4:27 pm

Rowson. Wonder what he'll make of Dave's semi-resignation and Osbornes non-appearance.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... te-cartoon" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 4:27 pm

Saw this earlier:

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TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 4:28 pm

PorFavor wrote:I can't work out who, or how, but is someobody making a lot of money out of all this instability?

I think it was Willow904 who alluded to this possibility - but it's been niggling away at me for some time.

Brexit buccaneer rakes in £220million: Hedge fund tycoon declares he 'may be the winner' after betting on stock value falling http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... lling.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 4:30 pm

TR'sGhost wrote:I'm flying a kite here of course, but....

If, as seems our general view, Cameron boo-boo'd woth the referendum because when he made the promise he never expected he's have to go through with it, is Boris in the same situation?

Attaches himself to Leave campaign which is popular with grassroots Tories, but like lots of other very well informed people expecting Remain to win by a narrow margin. Which it does.

Tory backwoods go incandescent, Dave forced out and in comes Boris as the self-proclaimed saviour of the euro-sceptics promising that unlike Dave he'll stand no nonsense from the EU which we "sadly" find ourselves still hitched to and claiming he's the only person trusted enough by both Tory factions to hold the party together.

Then in a single day the wheels came off Cameron's plan, Boris's plan and the UK's economy.

Or, looked at in another way, would you want to be Prime Minister for the next few years? When commercial lawyers are saying things like unravelling the UK law from the EU could easily use the entire resources of the civil service for several years and will include major constitutional fights with the devolved parliaments and assemblies.

Then there's the very real risk of HMG being sued if it fails to hold to any treaty obligations until after exit is complete. But to have a legal system in place at exit the UK will have to revoke and/or ignore treaty obligations before exit. Oh dear.

Incredible though it may sound, it seems despite four decades of euro-scepticism and demands for exit from the EU, none of the leading outers have ever put together a plan for exit beyond "Look into my eyes...... you are feeling very sleepy....... Repeat after me 'It will all be wonderful'."

(cJA edit and bold)

Exactly this. Scary times. Where's the leadership, please?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 4:31 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:
PorFavor wrote:I can't work out who, or how, but is someobody making a lot of money out of all this instability?

I think it was Willow904 who alluded to this possibility - but it's been niggling away at me for some time.
I think it's a safe bet that Nigel "My friends in banking have told me Remain have won" Farage may well have been doing just that. One suspects that he and those 'friends' were hedging on the £ rising after he said that and raked it in when, lo and behold, the £ tanked when Brexit became a possibility.

There is a bit somewhere in today's press about the guy who broke the Bank of England, Souros? has made another killing. He was busy pre Referendum telling people it would be disastrous to leave I believe.

It would be more surprising if it had all been squeaky clean.