Saturday 25th and Sunday 26th June 2016

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 6:22 pm

Was just thinking.

If we'd had decent management - as in government - they'd have had plan b, c, and probably d. They'd have been in contact with EU powers, had lots of meetings and made sure their position regarding a Leave vote happening was clearly understood and they'd apply damage limitation where possible.
In other words, made sure relations with a massive trading partner were protected as much as possible so if the worst came to the worst - which it did - they'd be given a bit of leeway.

But no. Not our arrogant bunch of sods...

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 6:22 pm

There's talk on the BBC now that, when David Cameron goes to his (non) meeting in Brussels, the minute he mentions the result of the referendum he will, technically, have invoked Article 50. Fawlty Towers springs to mind.

Edited "," for "."

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 6:27 pm

I'm not sure why we are supposed to love people who voted Leave and had no idea of the basics of what they were voting for were. Or didn't have any notion of the importance of the result.
Yes, it is Cameron's failure, and maybe not enough was done to really make sure people understood.
But all the information was there. The tv companies had debates and programmes, as did the radio.

Why is it wrong to criticise such people ? Surely even if you are a Lexit supporter you wouldn't want a win for Leave based on people not understanding or regretting their vote, or voting to get rid of foreigners. Other groups get abuse heaped on them by the left, why should we tread softly around people who have helped wreak havoc ?

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 6:35 pm

Not the most popular bloke in some circles, but by Christ he does hammer homes the lies of Gove and Johnson and their sordid campaign.

http://gu.com/p/4myct?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 6:36 pm

PorFavor wrote:There's talk on the BBC now that, when David Cameron goes to his (non) meeting in Brussels, the minute he mentions the result of the referendum he will, technically, have invoked Article 50. Fawlty Towers springs to mind.

Edited "," for "."

This is doing my head in. I (seriously) find even quite small levels of uncertainty destabilising.
Had hoped that once the vote was over we'd get back to a more sane time. Hadn't really factored in that Leave would win of course. Or the mayhem and lack of planning would be as it is.

Surely one of the things that should have been done, when asking us to vote on it, was to give a clear
description of how things would proceed if either side won.

There's no man with a plan, just lots of clots without plots.
(ref Michael Manley, Jamaican politician)

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 6:42 pm

yahyah wrote:
PorFavor wrote:There's talk on the BBC now that, when David Cameron goes to his (non) meeting in Brussels, the minute he mentions the result of the referendum he will, technically, have invoked Article 50. Fawlty Towers springs to mind.

Edited "," for "."[/quo

This is doing my head in. I (seriously) find even quite small levels of uncertainty destabilising.
Had hoped that once the vote was over we'd get back to a more sane time. Hadn't really factored in that Leave would win of course. Or the mayhem and lack of planning would be as it is.

Surely one of the things that should have been done, when asking us to vote on it, was to give a clear
description of how things would proceed if either side won.

There's no man with a plan, just lots of clots without plots.
(ref Michael Manley, Jamaican politician)

A question for the Welsh contingent here;
What on earth does Wales think it will do without EU millions?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 6:46 pm

I now await David Cameron announcing that he's not going to the "meeting" in Brussels owing to a subsequent engagement.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 6:56 pm

In this Brexit vote, the poor turned on an elite who ignored them
The neglected suddenly discovered they could use their EU referendum vote to get back at those who had never listened to their grievances

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... are_btn_tw

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 6:57 pm

Just for the record - I don't think a repeat referendum is a very good idea.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 6:58 pm

yahyah wrote:I'm not sure why we are supposed to love people who voted Leave and had no idea of the basics of what they were voting for were. Or didn't have any notion of the importance of the result.
Yes, it is Cameron's failure, and maybe not enough was done to really make sure people understood.
But all the information was there. The tv companies had debates and programmes, as did the radio.

Why is it wrong to criticise such people ? Surely even if you are a Lexit supporter you wouldn't want a win for Leave based on people not understanding or regretting their vote, or voting to get rid of foreigners. Other groups get abuse heaped on them by the left, why should we tread softly around people who have helped wreak havoc ?

I don't know. Were people wrong to assume that a responsible government would only offer them a choice that was a reasonable and acceptable option? How much thought can we expect people to put into such a choice, when even knowledgeable people were short on facts? It was reckless to hold a referendum on membership of the EU for no good reason. It was dangerous and irresponsible to risk the economic well being of our country for one man's personal political advantage. Perhaps if our relationship with the EU was about to fundamentally change it would make sense but this didn't make any sense at all. We've thrown stability and probably a great deal of prosperity away for nothing. David Cameron is responsible. He is completely to blame for whatever comes next. The media are snakes who have been feeding anti-immigrant propaganda to the masses for decades but David Cameron alone is responsible for putting this decision into the hands of a public who has been poisoned by it, fully aware of the damage leaving the EU would do if it went the way it has. And given how the polls have been in recent years, he can't even claim he wasn't aware of the strength of anti-EU sentiment.

Tories caused this referendum to be held and a majority of Tory supporters voted for us to leave. The reasons a rag tag of other people went along with them are of little interest to me. This is a Tory act of epic destructive proportions and they've been trying to do exactly this for many, many years. It's not a mistake or error or stupidity, it's hard-wired into their genes. This is their ideology, their raison d'etre and if they say they didn't really mean it I can only say that I don't believe them.

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 7:04 pm

What will Wales do now without EU funding?!

I regularly drive on the A465 towards the English border region, road is undergoing a huge upgrade, it started under the Labour gov, coalition cancelled it, the EU stepped in with conjunction with the Welsh gov, Merthyr Tydfil has had the town centre redone, new college, sports centre, roads, pavements, EU funding paid for, Aberavon where I was early this afternoon, seafront all done, EU funding, new Swansea Uni, campus, science park and technology departments, EU funding, Christ, I walked the dogs close to me the other day, canal paths, locks and car park, EU funding again.

How will it cope now, **** knows, I despair, I honestly do, poor Carwyn Jones must be totally gutted, disheartened, I wouldn't blame him if he said fuck it and walk away, I'm ashamed this week, where do they think the money for projects will come from now?

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 7:12 pm

Rebecca wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote: I agree with this, to a degree.

The worrying thing is and always has been, when those who were taken in by the Brexit "promises" realise they have been had - what then?
When the penny drops on all sides that Brexit was both a huge con and an economic disaster a new energetic Labour leader can build a coalition of the pissed off and use it to storm Downing Street in 2020 or later if Boris gets to hammer Corbyn first.
TE,are you able to post a comment without whining about Corbyn?
Seems like it is all you have done since his name was put forward in the leadership election.

Corbyn isn't going to beat Boris, so Labour has two options, get a leader who can; or lose to him by a landslide and then get a leader who can.

The only question it has to ask itself is how badly does it want to gift Johnson a huge majority.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 7:15 pm

Rebecca wrote:
yahyah wrote:
PorFavor wrote:There's talk on the BBC now that, when David Cameron goes to his (non) meeting in Brussels, the minute he mentions the result of the referendum he will, technically, have invoked Article 50. Fawlty Towers springs to mind.

Edited "," for "."[/quo

This is doing my head in. I (seriously) find even quite small levels of uncertainty destabilising.
Had hoped that once the vote was over we'd get back to a more sane time. Hadn't really factored in that Leave would win of course. Or the mayhem and lack of planning would be as it is.

Surely one of the things that should have been done, when asking us to vote on it, was to give a clear
description of how things would proceed if either side won.

There's no man with a plan, just lots of clots without plots.
(ref Michael Manley, Jamaican politician)

A question for the Welsh contingent here;
What on earth does Wales think it will do without EU millions?

Cornwall's asking if its EU funding that was being paid over a period of time, will be affected. Connected communities there. You'd have thought that that crucially important item would have been investigated, and the word passed around.

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 7:17 pm

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/polit ... e-10939396" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's a selection, doesn't even include some older projects like Baglan Energy Park, be interested how much EU money was spent tidying mine villages up, taking slag tips away and so on?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 7:18 pm

PorFavor wrote:Just for the record - I don't think a repeat referendum is a very good idea.

Nor do I. The outcome could be exactly the same.

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 7:19 pm

I can't even get excited about Wales in Euros this week!

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 7:21 pm

yahyah wrote:I'm not sure why we are supposed to love people who voted Leave and had no idea of the basics of what they were voting for were. Or didn't have any notion of the importance of the result.
Yes, it is Cameron's failure, and maybe not enough was done to really make sure people understood.
But all the information was there. The tv companies had debates and programmes, as did the radio.

Why is it wrong to criticise such people ? Surely even if you are a Lexit supporter you wouldn't want a win for Leave based on people not understanding or regretting their vote, or voting to get rid of foreigners. Other groups get abuse heaped on them by the left, why should we tread softly around people who have helped wreak havoc ?

Huge applause. I am sick and fucking tired of English anti-intellectualism, from working class comprehensive school to now. This vote is patent evidence of colossal, offensive stupidity from top to bottom and it absolutely must be called out for what it is, otherwise we really are lost.

Just seen an exchange where a cancer research doctor is told she should stop begging for EU funding and rely on the Holy Spirit to find a cure. And someone linking to the London Olympics with the words "look what we had".

This is the worst event in British politics in my adult lifetime and I will not apologise for my anger towards the idiots who brought it about.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 7:22 pm

Interesting that Lord Hill's previous job was as a Minister of State...at the DfE.

He must be well used to Gove and Cummings not having a coherent plan.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 7:24 pm

letsskiptotheleft wrote:http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/polit ... e-10939396

Here's a selection, doesn't even include some older projects like Baglan Energy Park, be interested how much EU money was spent tidying mine villages up, taking slag tips away and so on?

Choked me up. Disaster, because this government is only good for useless projects that wastes millions.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 7:28 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:One thing this campaign did do - finally reveal that Alan Johnson is almost entirely a media myth.

For those who don't know, *he* was actually meant to be running Labour's "in" campaign (not Corbyn)

One of the mysteries that has always worried me is why the media kept talking up AJ as a replacement leader for Miliband.

Having met him I would suggest he is deeply unimpressive.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 7:28 pm

Thank God that we have Sadiq Khan as Mayor of London - can you imagine Zac Goldsmith in the situation we find ourselves now?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 7:33 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Just for the record - I don't think a repeat referendum is a very good idea.
Nor do I. The outcome could be exactly the same.

Very likely.And if it's different, Boris Johnson et al will be off the hook. But (possibly) safely ensconced in powerful positions.

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 7:35 pm

I'm finally getting round to reading the hard copy of our favourite Most Disappointingly Wrong-headed newspaper. Some of it is worth reading - not Polly Bleedin' Idiot Toynbee, of course - but I found these words at the end of Marina Hyde's regretful piece to be particularly poignant:

"I can’t help feeling 2016’s wave of departures finally makes sense. All those cool people died just in time."

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 7:41 pm

European money has helped develop infrastructure, universities and broadband internet in the county. From 2007 to 2013, €654m was given to pay for these projects, the Financial Times reported.
But a statement on the council website posted on Friday said prior to the referendum said the county was reassured by the Leave side that withdrawing from the EU would not affect the funding already allocated by Brussels.

Leave campaigners also promised the county would not be worse off in terms of the investment it receives. “We are seeking urgent confirmation from Ministers that this is the case,” the statement added.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 01311.html

Oo-er. I wonder how that's going to play out?

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 7:41 pm

NonOxCol wrote:
yahyah wrote:I'm not sure why we are supposed to love people who voted Leave and had no idea of the basics of what they were voting for were. Or didn't have any notion of the importance of the result.
Yes, it is Cameron's failure, and maybe not enough was done to really make sure people understood.
But all the information was there. The tv companies had debates and programmes, as did the radio.

Why is it wrong to criticise such people ? Surely even if you are a Lexit supporter you wouldn't want a win for Leave based on people not understanding or regretting their vote, or voting to get rid of foreigners. Other groups get abuse heaped on them by the left, why should we tread softly around people who have helped wreak havoc ?
Huge applause. I am sick and fucking tired of English anti-intellectualism, from working class comprehensive school to now. This vote is patent evidence of colossal, offensive stupidity from top to bottom and it absolutely must be called out for what it is, otherwise we really are lost.

Just seen an exchange where a cancer research doctor is told she should stop begging for EU funding and rely on the Holy Spirit to find a cure. And someone linking to the London Olympics with the words "look what we had".

This is the worst event in British politics in my adult lifetime and I will not apologise for my anger towards the idiots who brought it about.

I won't apologise either, I had the sick pleasure of telling a nurse last night about the losses in pension pots, she moaned she was fed up of the coverage, I believe, correct me if I'm wrong that anti-intellectualism was rather popular in 30s too?!

This is how thick people are, read on another board of a bloke who works with a guy who proudly proclaimed to voting out, he then reminded him half the funding they recieve comes from the EU, leaver walked into his office and wasn't seen for the rest of day, his job, business development officer, I kid you not.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 7:45 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
Rebecca wrote: TE,are you able to post a comment without whining about Corbyn?
Seems like it is all you have done since his name was put forward in the leadership election.
Corbyn isn't going to beat Boris, so Labour has two options, get a leader who can; or lose to him by a landslide and then get a leader who can.

The only question it has to ask itself is how badly does it want to gift Johnson a huge majority.
A few questions to you TE

If the PLP ejects Corbyn and inevitably alienates the vast majority of activists, just who is going to pound the doorsteps and sell this wonderful new leader?

Where is the party going to 'get a leader who can' beat Boris? Can you buy them on Amazon? Because I don't see anyone in the PLP who has remotely inspired any sort of enthusiasm apart from Corbyn.

Why do you never mention any alternative names when you talk about getting rid of Corbyn? It seems fairly important to have an alternative, but I'm not hearing any. Surely it's not a question of Corbyn being bad but worse than the alternative, and if there is no alternative, then isn't it a little bit monumentally stupid to get rid of the only leader we do have?

Do you honestly think you are helping?

The idea that because Corbyn inspires a small number of leftwing activists he has any resonance with the wider population is incorrect.

If Boris is to be believed there will be an election in the next few months (he is saying that because he believes he can win it).

Corbyn has shown himself a poor campaigner, some of the comments I get from people I know about him are unprintable. He also cannot connect with the UKIP ex Labour tendency, nor does he encourage moderate Tories and Lib Dems to vote Labour. These are both constituencies we desperately need to stand any chance of stopping Boris.

When the Tories left the centre ground and trashed the economy for Brexit they provided an opportunity for Labour to win an election. There are people who could do it, but Corbyn isn't one of them.

Let me turn it round, since you basically know Corbyn can't win an election - why wouldn't you try something else. Yes it could go wrong, but at this stage it won't make any material difference and it might work.

For the avoidance of doubt, I am not advocating the return of the Blairites, but we have to broaden our appeal and get somebody who can actually get the message over.

If Boris wins big next year he can trash everything, from workers rights to the environment. We owe it to the country to at least try and stop him.

Edited to add - you are correct a lot of new members may leave, but they aren't really helping us win anything, mainly because despite their best efforts people aren't receptive to the leader.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 7:45 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:One thing this campaign did do - finally reveal that Alan Johnson is almost entirely a media myth.

For those who don't know, *he* was actually meant to be running Labour's "in" campaign (not Corbyn)
One of the mysteries that has always worried me is why the media kept talking up AJ as a replacement leader for Miliband.

Having met him I would suggest he is deeply unimpressive.

As supposed head of the Remain campaign he was bloody useless.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 7:46 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:One thing this campaign did do - finally reveal that Alan Johnson is almost entirely a media myth.

For those who don't know, *he* was actually meant to be running Labour's "in" campaign (not Corbyn)
One of the mysteries that has always worried me is why the media kept talking up AJ as a replacement leader for Miliband.

Having met him I would suggest he is deeply unimpressive.

And Cameron is impressive, Johnson deeply impressive

Liar, incompetent, bordering on criminal (in Johnson's case), disloyal, conniving

Johnson did absolutely nothing for London and Cameron has just about destroyed the British state and the future of the country

But you think they are so impressive because they look nice and tidy on tv....can lie well, are good actors and have managed to kiss the arses of enough of the oligarchs in the media to have their incompetence covered up

These are the values you seem to put above all else

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 7:46 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:One thing this campaign did do - finally reveal that Alan Johnson is almost entirely a media myth.

For those who don't know, *he* was actually meant to be running Labour's "in" campaign (not Corbyn)
One of the mysteries that has always worried me is why the media kept talking up AJ as a replacement leader for Miliband.

Having met him I would suggest he is deeply unimpressive.
As supposed head of the Remain campaign he was bloody useless.

but surely he is so much better than Corbyn...wasn't he proposed by some of the PLP manners as a leader in waiting?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 7:48 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote: Corbyn isn't going to beat Boris, so Labour has two options, get a leader who can; or lose to him by a landslide and then get a leader who can.

The only question it has to ask itself is how badly does it want to gift Johnson a huge majority.
A few questions to you TE

If the PLP ejects Corbyn and inevitably alienates the vast majority of activists, just who is going to pound the doorsteps and sell this wonderful new leader?

Where is the party going to 'get a leader who can' beat Boris? Can you buy them on Amazon? Because I don't see anyone in the PLP who has remotely inspired any sort of enthusiasm apart from Corbyn.

Why do you never mention any alternative names when you talk about getting rid of Corbyn? It seems fairly important to have an alternative, but I'm not hearing any. Surely it's not a question of Corbyn being bad but worse than the alternative, and if there is no alternative, then isn't it a little bit monumentally stupid to get rid of the only leader we do have?

Do you honestly think you are helping?
The idea that because Corbyn inspires a small number of leftwing activists he has any resonance with the wider population is incorrect.

If Boris is to be believed there will be an election in the next few months (he is saying that because he believes he can win it).

Corbyn has shown himself a poor campaigner, some of the comments I get from people I know about him are unprintable. He also cannot connect with the UKIP ex Labour tendency, nor does he encourage moderate Tories and Lib Dems to vote Labour. These are both constituencies we desperately need to stand any chance of stopping Boris.

When the Tories left the centre ground and trashed the economy for Brexit they provided an opportunity for Labour to win an election. There are people who could do it, but Corbyn isn't one of them.

Let me turn it round, since you basically know Corbyn can't win an election - why wouldn't you try something else. Yes it could go wrong, but at this stage it won't make any material difference and it might work.

For the avoidance of doubt, I am not advocating the return of the Blairites, but we have to broaden our appeal and get somebody who can actually get the message over.

If Boris wins big next year he can trash everything, from workers rights to the environment. We owe it to the country to at least try and stop him.

Who do you think can beat him as Labour leader -name names?

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 7:48 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote: One of the mysteries that has always worried me is why the media kept talking up AJ as a replacement leader for Miliband.

Having met him I would suggest he is deeply unimpressive.
As supposed head of the Remain campaign he was bloody useless.
but surely he is so much better than Corbyn...wasn't he proposed by some of the PLP manners as a leader in waiting?

Some idiots put that forward, I was certainly not one of them.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 7:51 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote: A few questions to you TE

If the PLP ejects Corbyn and inevitably alienates the vast majority of activists, just who is going to pound the doorsteps and sell this wonderful new leader?

Where is the party going to 'get a leader who can' beat Boris? Can you buy them on Amazon? Because I don't see anyone in the PLP who has remotely inspired any sort of enthusiasm apart from Corbyn.

Why do you never mention any alternative names when you talk about getting rid of Corbyn? It seems fairly important to have an alternative, but I'm not hearing any. Surely it's not a question of Corbyn being bad but worse than the alternative, and if there is no alternative, then isn't it a little bit monumentally stupid to get rid of the only leader we do have?

Do you honestly think you are helping?
The idea that because Corbyn inspires a small number of leftwing activists he has any resonance with the wider population is incorrect.

If Boris is to be believed there will be an election in the next few months (he is saying that because he believes he can win it).

Corbyn has shown himself a poor campaigner, some of the comments I get from people I know about him are unprintable. He also cannot connect with the UKIP ex Labour tendency, nor does he encourage moderate Tories and Lib Dems to vote Labour. These are both constituencies we desperately need to stand any chance of stopping Boris.

When the Tories left the centre ground and trashed the economy for Brexit they provided an opportunity for Labour to win an election. There are people who could do it, but Corbyn isn't one of them.

Let me turn it round, since you basically know Corbyn can't win an election - why wouldn't you try something else. Yes it could go wrong, but at this stage it won't make any material difference and it might work.

For the avoidance of doubt, I am not advocating the return of the Blairites, but we have to broaden our appeal and get somebody who can actually get the message over.

If Boris wins big next year he can trash everything, from workers rights to the environment. We owe it to the country to at least try and stop him.
Who do you think can beat him as Labour leader -name names?

Starmer - why because his background suggests extreme competence.

Jarvis, although I think he is too incendiary to the left to be a great choice.

Long shot Angela Eagle given her experience.

There are probably a few others.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 7:51 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
ohsocynical wrote: As supposed head of the Remain campaign he was bloody useless.
but surely he is so much better than Corbyn...wasn't he proposed by some of the PLP manners as a leader in waiting?
Some idiots put that forward, I was certainly not one of them.

I'm broadly with you on Jeremy Corbyn.

Edited to add - I'm pro Angela Eagle and Keir Starmer, too.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 7:57 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote: The idea that because Corbyn inspires a small number of leftwing activists he has any resonance with the wider population is incorrect.

If Boris is to be believed there will be an election in the next few months (he is saying that because he believes he can win it).

Corbyn has shown himself a poor campaigner, some of the comments I get from people I know about him are unprintable. He also cannot connect with the UKIP ex Labour tendency, nor does he encourage moderate Tories and Lib Dems to vote Labour. These are both constituencies we desperately need to stand any chance of stopping Boris.

When the Tories left the centre ground and trashed the economy for Brexit they provided an opportunity for Labour to win an election. There are people who could do it, but Corbyn isn't one of them.

Let me turn it round, since you basically know Corbyn can't win an election - why wouldn't you try something else. Yes it could go wrong, but at this stage it won't make any material difference and it might work.

For the avoidance of doubt, I am not advocating the return of the Blairites, but we have to broaden our appeal and get somebody who can actually get the message over.

If Boris wins big next year he can trash everything, from workers rights to the environment. We owe it to the country to at least try and stop him.
Who do you think can beat him as Labour leader -name names?
Starmer - why because his background suggests extreme competence.

Jarvis, although I think he is too incendiary to the left to be a great choice.

Long shot Angela Eagle given her experience.

There are probably a few others.

Starter may be a goer but I don't think he has indicated he is willing to stand has he?

Jarvis - well that is my vote and many others gone - the guy is only put forward because he was a soldier...and I don't do soldier worship (may help with the Little Englanders though who love thinking about the war and bombing people)

Eagle was useless during the recent campaign....her performance in the debate was shocking

So there you go......there is nothing in the pantry apart from potentially Starmer

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:00 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote: Who do you think can beat him as Labour leader -name names?
Starmer - why because his background suggests extreme competence.

Jarvis, although I think he is too incendiary to the left to be a great choice.

Long shot Angela Eagle given her experience.

There are probably a few others.

Starter may be a goer but I don't think he has indicated he is willing to stand has he?

Jarvis - well that is my vote and many others gone - the guy is only put forward because he was a soldier...and I don't do soldier worship (may help with the Little Englanders though who love thinking about the war and bombing people)

Eagle was useless during the recent campaign....her performance in the debate was shocking

So there you go......there is nothing in the pantry apart from potentially Starmer

Yes - Angela Eagle was surprisingly bad in the debate. I assumed she was following instructions (that's a reason - not an excuse).

Edited to add an "s"

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:08 pm

letsskiptotheleft wrote:
NonOxCol wrote:
yahyah wrote:I'm not sure why we are supposed to love people who voted Leave and had no idea of the basics of what they were voting for were. Or didn't have any notion of the importance of the result.
Yes, it is Cameron's failure, and maybe not enough was done to really make sure people understood.
But all the information was there. The tv companies had debates and programmes, as did the radio.

Why is it wrong to criticise such people ? Surely even if you are a Lexit supporter you wouldn't want a win for Leave based on people not understanding or regretting their vote, or voting to get rid of foreigners. Other groups get abuse heaped on them by the left, why should we tread softly around people who have helped wreak havoc ?
Huge applause. I am sick and fucking tired of English anti-intellectualism, from working class comprehensive school to now. This vote is patent evidence of colossal, offensive stupidity from top to bottom and it absolutely must be called out for what it is, otherwise we really are lost.

Just seen an exchange where a cancer research doctor is told she should stop begging for EU funding and rely on the Holy Spirit to find a cure. And someone linking to the London Olympics with the words "look what we had".

This is the worst event in British politics in my adult lifetime and I will not apologise for my anger towards the idiots who brought it about.
I won't apologise either, I had the sick pleasure of telling a nurse last night about the losses in pension pots, she moaned she was fed up of the coverage, I believe, correct me if I'm wrong that anti-intellectualism was rather popular in 30s too?!

This is how thick people are, read on another board of a bloke who works with a guy who proudly proclaimed to voting out, he then reminded him half the funding they recieve comes from the EU, leaver walked into his office and wasn't seen for the rest of day, his job, business development officer, I kid you not.

Martin Rowson's Twitter timeline is cathartic and suitably unapologetic. He and SturdyAlex, among others, have helped make the weekend a little easier.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:09 pm

The upshot is that Corbyn was elected leader because the talent pool was empty after years of Blair control

The situation hasn't actually changed much now either has it? If there was such talent available then surely last year was the time to stand and we know how that went

Starter has just joined and may not be ready....if he his then that is an option to be considered but I doubt he is stupid enough to stand directly against Corbyn or be involved in a coup

The issue is, as has always been, the PLP want someone the party don't and TE ranting on here will do nothing about that.

Labour lost in 2015, badly, because people didn't want to vote for an unprincipled, in their view, Tory lite party.

The way to win is back to socialism.....social housing, public works etc...that is what got us out of the post-war austerity...we will be back there again shortly. The labour Party as one needs to be selling this in the times ahead which are going to be very, very bad

The PLP is all of spineless careerists who would not dare to stand up for what is needed....I would imagine a lot of them would prefer to have a liar and crook like Johnson as leader than someone like Corbyn....he probably throws such wonderful dinner parties which his QC wife - not like that scruffy oil Corbyn

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:09 pm

I have sometimes got the impression that Tom Watson is positioning himself to attempt to take over post-Corbyn, though not quite yet. He has a mandate to rival Corbyn's and undoubtedly has the ambition. Whether or not he steps in to calm the current insurrection may provide clues to how seriously Labour are taking the prospect of an early election as I think Watson would prefer to keep Corbyn in place a little longer if possible.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:11 pm

Owen Smith and Lisa Nandy are possibles? Neither are "metropolitans" which may well be a plus in the current climate.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:11 pm

Perhaps this is why the PLP can't work with Corbyn

"Alan Johnson, asked for a meeting with Corbyn in April and was told by his team that the only available date would be July."

It's hard reading if you support him, but it does explain a little bit of why the party is split.

Jeremy Corbyn Allies ‘Sabotaged’ Labour’s In Campaign On The EU Referendum, Critics Claim

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/j ... 68cucjtt9=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:13 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote: The idea that because Corbyn inspires a small number of leftwing activists he has any resonance with the wider population is incorrect.

If Boris is to be believed there will be an election in the next few months (he is saying that because he believes he can win it).

Corbyn has shown himself a poor campaigner, some of the comments I get from people I know about him are unprintable. He also cannot connect with the UKIP ex Labour tendency, nor does he encourage moderate Tories and Lib Dems to vote Labour. These are both constituencies we desperately need to stand any chance of stopping Boris.

When the Tories left the centre ground and trashed the economy for Brexit they provided an opportunity for Labour to win an election. There are people who could do it, but Corbyn isn't one of them.

Let me turn it round, since you basically know Corbyn can't win an election - why wouldn't you try something else. Yes it could go wrong, but at this stage it won't make any material difference and it might work.

For the avoidance of doubt, I am not advocating the return of the Blairites, but we have to broaden our appeal and get somebody who can actually get the message over.

If Boris wins big next year he can trash everything, from workers rights to the environment. We owe it to the country to at least try and stop him.
Who do you think can beat him as Labour leader -name names?
Starmer - why because his background suggests extreme competence.

Jarvis, although I think he is too incendiary to the left to be a great choice.

Long shot Angela Eagle given her experience.

There are probably a few others.

Do keep up. Admit you're scraping the barrel.

Starmer hasn't been in the job long enough. No-ones quite sure what he stands for. Maybe down the line, but not at such short notice. You've only given Corbyn a year, so fair's fair. Oops, no, sorry, I stand corrected. You didn't give Corbyn five minutes before you'd made up your mind he was no good.

Jarvis could have have been nominated last year and would have walked it, but turned it down because he was freshly? widowed with two young sons. One year is not going to improve his home conditions by that much. I'd be disconcerted if he jumped in now, and he's also blotted his copybook by becoming involved in some Corbyn bashing.

Angela Eagle? You want charisma? Presence?

Next ---

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:15 pm

A plea - I know it's easier to quote using everything that's been said before...but the replies are getting lengthy!

Could people edit just to include the point they're replying to?

Thanks.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:16 pm

Anyone remember this?

https://m.youtube.com/?hl=en-GB&gl=GB#/ ... KFTtYx2OHc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Try not to cry.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:18 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:A plea - I know it's easier to quote using everything that's been said before...but the replies are getting lengthy!

Could people edit just to include the point they're replying to?

Thanks.

Never sure people will scroll back that far to get the gist of a conversation...

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:18 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:A plea - I know it's easier to quote using everything that's been said before...but the replies are getting lengthy!

Could people edit just to include the point they're replying to?

Thanks.

I do agree. But my manual dexterity is, at present, at too low an ebb!

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:23 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:Perhaps this is why the PLP can't work with Corbyn

"Alan Johnson, asked for a meeting with Corbyn in April and was told by his team that the only available date would be July."

It's hard reading if you support him, but it does explain a little bit of why the party is split.

Jeremy Corbyn Allies ‘Sabotaged’ Labour’s In Campaign On The EU Referendum, Critics Claim

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/j ... 68cucjtt9=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anonymous sources...and you think Blair and Mandelson were a help to the campaign....really?

I am just so fed up with the continual sniping from the PLP....

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:25 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Owen Smith and Lisa Nandy are possibles? Neither are "metropolitans" which may well be a plus in the current climate.

Smith is a good option...but doubt he would be acceptable either

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:29 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:Perhaps this is why the PLP can't work with Corbyn

"Alan Johnson, asked for a meeting with Corbyn in April and was told by his team that the only available date would be July."

It's hard reading if you support him, but it does explain a little bit of why the party is split.

Jeremy Corbyn Allies ‘Sabotaged’ Labour’s In Campaign On The EU Referendum, Critics Claim

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/j ... 68cucjtt9=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Anonymous sources...and you think Blair and Mandelson were a help to the campaign....really?

I am just so fed up with the continual sniping from the PLP....

If you read it all you will see copies of his diary that back up whats been said. He went on holiday mid campaign. He never once appeared on the LabourIn bus
As I said it explains a little why PLP find him hard to work with.
However much you like him, both sides need to be understood. That's all.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:29 pm

Anyway talk of party leadership for Labour is pretty irrelevant with the disaster that is ahead of us

And yes TE that is all down to Cameron....nowt to do with Corbyn

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:31 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:Anyway talk of party leadership for Labour is pretty irrelevant with the disaster that is ahead of us

And yes TE that is all down to Cameron....nowt to do with Corbyn

I agree with that!

(Your final sentence, that is.)