Saturday 25th and Sunday 26th June 2016

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:35 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:Perhaps this is why the PLP can't work with Corbyn

"Alan Johnson, asked for a meeting with Corbyn in April and was told by his team that the only available date would be July."

It's hard reading if you support him, but it does explain a little bit of why the party is split.

Jeremy Corbyn Allies ‘Sabotaged’ Labour’s In Campaign On The EU Referendum, Critics Claim

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/j ... 68cucjtt9=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Anonymous sources...and you think Blair and Mandelson were a help to the campaign....really?

I am just so fed up with the continual sniping from the PLP....
If you read it all you will see copies of his diary that back up whats been said. He went on holiday mid campaign. He never once appeared on the LabourIn bus
As I said it explains a little why PLP find him hard to work with.
However much you like him, both sides need to be understood. That's all.

Of course both sides need to be understood I agree with you.

I have numerous Labour friends who saw him campaigning and were very impressed with his patience and honesty....they never felt he was anything more than Remain...but the anecdotes from ordinary members ever get to the press

As to who he campaigned with...Mandelson and Blair were poison and he was right to keep away from Cameron.

I was not, and am not, a Corbyn fanboy but he is continually attacked from all sides and is being blamed now for the referendum loss

There is one thing him being difficult with the PLP but is it surprising when they are always on the tv blaming him.....

The referendum loss was down to Cameron and his inability to deliver his party.....Labour was not far short of the LD in % for remaining

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:38 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Owen Smith and Lisa Nandy are possibles? Neither are "metropolitans" which may well be a plus in the current climate.

Smith is a good option...but doubt he would be acceptable either

Not exactly well known though. The right will have their choice selected anyway. It's a carefully concerted campaign.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:39 pm

How to defuse the blairites? If a general election happens before Article 50 is invoked Labour stand on the second referendum ticket.

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:39 pm

I'd concede Owen Smith. But isn't he loyal to Corbyn?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:45 pm

Temulkar wrote:How to defuse the blairites? If a general election happens before Article 50 is invoked Labour stand on the second referendum ticket.

Article 50 will be declared next week is my bet....or just afterwards.

EU cannot do it themselves (unless there is some way around it) but they can bully and threaten....and I am sure they will have everything lined up for then

Remember, as the Remain camp rightly said, the balance of power definitely is towards the EU and they can start using it even before A50

Also EU Parliament vote called....gives Farage a chance to bang on about it as well.....

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:45 pm

Temulkar wrote:How to defuse the blairites? If a general election happens before Article 50 is invoked Labour stand on the second referendum ticket.

..and campaign with The Greens, Liberals, SNP & Plaid Cymru (if they are interested) all singing from the same sheet

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:45 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:Perhaps this is why the PLP can't work with Corbyn

"Alan Johnson, asked for a meeting with Corbyn in April and was told by his team that the only available date would be July."

It's hard reading if you support him, but it does explain a little bit of why the party is split.

Jeremy Corbyn Allies ‘Sabotaged’ Labour’s In Campaign On The EU Referendum, Critics Claim

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/j ... 68cucjtt9=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Anonymous sources...and you think Blair and Mandelson were a help to the campaign....really?

I am just so fed up with the continual sniping from the PLP....
If you read it all you will see copies of his diary that back up whats been said. He went on holiday mid campaign. He never once appeared on the LabourIn bus
As I said it explains a little why PLP find him hard to work with.
However much you like him, both sides need to be understood. That's all.

Probably couldn't bear being stuck in a bus for hours with a load of glossy yes men who'd knife him in the back if they had half a chance.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:50 pm

@howsillyofme1

I would argue that the mess we're in now, and its possible ramifications, has catapulted us into a situation which makes it vital that we have someone who is viable as opposition leader. That, in my opinion, rules out Jeremy Corbyn.

Strangely enough, I wouldn't have much of an objection to Jeremy Corbyn as PM - but it doesn't work like that.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:50 pm

Don't think we've seen this...from the HoC Library.

Brexit: what happens next?

http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ ... y/CBP-7632

Edit - the bit about Gibraltar. I know we're worried but think of the people there. real;ly serious stuff for them.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:50 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
Temulkar wrote:How to defuse the blairites? If a general election happens before Article 50 is invoked Labour stand on the second referendum ticket.
..and campaign with The Greens, Liberals, SNP & Plaid Cymru (if they are interested) all singing from the same sheet

That would be a very bloody good idea.....Corbyn could deliver that (or someone from his wing of the party) but not any of the right....they would rather be with the Tories

Plaid will not be there....useless lot

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:53 pm

PorFavor wrote:@howsillyofme1

I would argue that the mess we're in now, and its possible ramifications, has catapulted us into a situation which makes it vital that we have someone who is viable as opposition leader. That, in my opinion, rules out Jeremy Corbyn.

Strangely enough, I wouldn't have much of an objection to Jeremy Corbyn as PM - but it doesn't work like that.

I don't necessarily disagree but the 'What' has to aligned with the 'How' and the 'How' has been despicable - from some people with absolutely no credibility and history of success themselves

There has to be the right person and, as the discussion has shown, there is no name cropping up.

The right want Miliband Elder which would be a disaster....and they will want to move before Chilcott which is going to be embarrassing for the old guard

If he goes, he goes on his own terms and one of the potential successors has to have his blessing - if he stands himself he will win

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 8:54 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
Temulkar wrote:How to defuse the blairites? If a general election happens before Article 50 is invoked Labour stand on the second referendum ticket.

Article 50 will be declared next week is my bet....or just afterwards.

EU cannot do it themselves (unless there is some way around it) but they can bully and threaten....and I am sure they will have everything lined up for then

Remember, as the Remain camp rightly said, the balance of power definitely is towards the EU and they can start using it even before A50

Also EU Parliament vote called....gives Farage a chance to bang on about it as well.....

Cameron has said that he will leave it for the next PM so it wont be invoked until September at the earliest and then a GE is likely to be called for fresh mandate etc, so A50 is left hanging until that is decided.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 9:00 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:When the Tories left the centre ground and trashed the economy for Brexit they provided an opportunity for Labour to win an election. There are people who could do it, but Corbyn isn't one of them.

Who are they and where have they been hiding all this time?

TechnicalEphemera wrote:Let me turn it round, since you basically know Corbyn can't win an election - why wouldn't you try something else. Yes it could go wrong, but at this stage it won't make any material difference and it might work.

Whoa there. I basically know nothing of the sort. What I do know is that it's going to be very difficult for Corbyn's Labour to win an election - particularly when he has to deal with a bunch of vocal, backstabbing arse wipes in the PLP who seem obsessed with destroying the Labour Party just to self-fulfill their own prophecy that the Party is doomed because Corbyn is in charge - but can't win? Of course Corbyn can win. It'll take a fair few stars aligning the right way, but it is eminently feasible that a Corbyn-led Labour Party can win. Particularly against Boris Johnson.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 9:00 pm

People new to politics see things in black and white. Like or not. They're always horrified at the undercurrents and just how much back stabbing and sniping can go on at meetings.

This seems to be a typical reaction.
From Facebook CarpetSlipper.

I went to my first ever political meeting at Birmingham 2 weeks ago to hear Corbyn speak about staying in Europe. He was passionate, captivating and very motivated.
There were 500 people in the hall. Tickets for the event had all been spoken for within 24 hours of the event being announced. How dare you say that Corbyn couldn't win an election when he has motivated people like me for the first time ever to be politically involved?
You are supposed to be in the same party as him. If you disapprove of his leadership, defect to the Tories.
People in the referendum decided to leave due to the electorate making it a vote of no confidence in Cameron. They were lied to about about the reasons for their discontent and they fell for it. The right wing biased media helped them to do that. It's ridiculous to say Corbyn didn't try hard enough. The media hated giving him air time. You need to get behind your leader and support him, not stab him in the back, giving the Tories a field day and diverting attention from where it should be.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 9:03 pm

Temulkar wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
Temulkar wrote:How to defuse the blairites? If a general election happens before Article 50 is invoked Labour stand on the second referendum ticket.

Article 50 will be declared next week is my bet....or just afterwards.

EU cannot do it themselves (unless there is some way around it) but they can bully and threaten....and I am sure they will have everything lined up for then

Remember, as the Remain camp rightly said, the balance of power definitely is towards the EU and they can start using it even before A50

Also EU Parliament vote called....gives Farage a chance to bang on about it as well.....
Cameron has said that he will leave it for the next PM so it wont be invoked until September at the earliest and then a GE is likely to be called for fresh mandate etc, so A50 is left hanging until that is decided.

That is what he has said....he is a liar though remember

There is no way that A50 will be allowed to wait that long....the EU will not let it happen. Perhaps a couple of weeks but no longer

They will find a way I am sure

Imagine the following

Cameron: I need 3 months
Merkel: You have two weeks
Cameron: We need time to elect a new leader
Merkel: Thatcher was replaced in 5 days
Cameron: But we have a process to follow
Merkel: You were the ones who said they wanted to leave and you said in the campaign you would invoke A50 as soon as possible
Cameron: But I lied....it is what I do.....like the scorpion in the frog and the scorpion fable
Merkel: Okay then.....if you do not start the process now we will announce tomorrow that any access to the single market will be linked to Schengen
Cameron: Oh
Merkel: And we will also announce that the UK will probably lose passporting.....
Cameron: But what about my credibility
All: Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 9:09 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:It won't matter who the new leader is if the footsoldiers walk out, and they will. Yes, there are other things that help with elections, billboards and battlebuses and all that, but that won't matter because there won't be any money for that stuff if the members desert.

They won't just walk out, they'd probably slaughter anyone who took over as well. Without foot soldiers the only media left to get the message out would be the press - and there's no way they'd help out - and social media. Guess how well that'll go with a lot of irate former members ready and willing to let rip...

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 9:16 pm

Incidentally, perhaps the PLP should try mitigating Corbyn's weaknesses while amplifying his strengths, instead of just attacking him. Yes, I'm back to my, "the Party needs to be more than just one man" refrain, but I believe it would work much better than imposing an unwanted replacement on the membership.

If Corbyn isn't being persuasive enough on TV, put some else up who is. Let Corbyn rally the converted to make sure the base is strong. Get someone else to butter up and persuade the centrists.

Play as a team for once.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 9:23 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:Incidentally, perhaps the PLP should try mitigating Corbyn's weaknesses while amplifying his strengths, instead of just attacking him. Yes, I'm back to my, "the Party needs to be more than just one man" refrain, but I believe it would work much better than imposing an unwanted replacement on the membership.

If Corbyn isn't being persuasive enough on TV, put some else up who is. Let Corbyn rally the converted to make sure the base is strong. Get someone else to butter up and persuade the centrists.

Play as a team for once.

I don't watch politicians on the TV or computer, it encourages my use of bad language, but I understood that Corbyn has actually come over rather well when he's appeared on the Marr show and similar? I guess that once again it's the lack of fair press coverage coming into play.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 9:29 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:Incidentally, perhaps the PLP should try mitigating Corbyn's weaknesses while amplifying his strengths, instead of just attacking him. Yes, I'm back to my, "the Party needs to be more than just one man" refrain, but I believe it would work much better than imposing an unwanted replacement on the membership.

If Corbyn isn't being persuasive enough on TV, put some else up who is. Let Corbyn rally the converted to make sure the base is strong. Get someone else to butter up and persuade the centrists.

Play as a team for once.

It's evolved into a battle of wills. The more the right wing dig their heels in, the more they'll cause those who support Corbyn to dig their heels in and as the letter I posted above shows, those who are fresh to politics get very angry about it and can't understand what's happening or why. It's becoming increasingly clear the right won't get any encouragement from that quarter.
Despite the writing on the wall the right persist. It is coming to a head. And if he [Corbyn] is forced out, there is going to be hell to pay.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 9:30 pm

At some point presumably there is going to be a House of Commons debate about this before they vote to take the UK out.

Surely it's at this point that the Leave people have to start justifying what they've said and come up with some sort of alternatives about what happens next e.g. trade options, immigration etc.

So what happens when it's revealed that there's an empty shell with no ideas and no clue as to what to do?

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 9:35 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
Temulkar wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
Article 50 will be declared next week is my bet....or just afterwards.

EU cannot do it themselves (unless there is some way around it) but they can bully and threaten....and I am sure they will have everything lined up for then

Remember, as the Remain camp rightly said, the balance of power definitely is towards the EU and they can start using it even before A50

Also EU Parliament vote called....gives Farage a chance to bang on about it as well.....
Cameron has said that he will leave it for the next PM so it wont be invoked until September at the earliest and then a GE is likely to be called for fresh mandate etc, so A50 is left hanging until that is decided.

That is what he has said....he is a liar though remember

There is no way that A50 will be allowed to wait that long....the EU will not let it happen. Perhaps a couple of weeks but no longer

They will find a way I am sure

Imagine the following

Cameron: I need 3 months
Merkel: You have two weeks
Cameron: We need time to elect a new leader
Merkel: Thatcher was replaced in 5 days
Cameron: But we have a process to follow
Merkel: You were the ones who said they wanted to leave and you said in the campaign you would invoke A50 as soon as possible
Cameron: But I lied....it is what I do.....like the scorpion in the frog and the scorpion fable
Merkel: Okay then.....if you do not start the process now we will announce tomorrow that any access to the single market will be linked to Schengen
Cameron: Oh
Merkel: And we will also announce that the UK will probably lose passporting.....
Cameron: But what about my credibility
All: Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Merkel and Europe know as well as everyone else a second referedum is a possibility and wont spook that just like Ireland, it has been modus operandi for the EU.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 9:37 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:At some point presumably there is going to be a House of Commons debate about this before they vote to take the UK out.

Surely it's at this point that the Leave people have to start justifying what they've said and come up with some sort of alternatives about what happens next e.g. trade options, immigration etc.

So what happens when it's revealed that there's an empty shell with no ideas and no clue as to what to do?

It will be very strange...how will the debate work as all the party leaders (apart from Cardwell - who leads himself- and that stupid DUP woman) support Remain....what is the precedence for having a upper-class incompetent backbench twat acting as defacto PM?

What will the Parliament vote on.....there are no proposals....it will just be loads of MPs standing up and calling the Brexiters for what they are...it will be pretty brutal, especially for the Tory Brexit Group as it will be 200 vs 450

Mind you they only have another 3 weeks before hols....the most critical time since WWII and they will all be on the beach

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 9:40 pm

I mean, it's lucky there are so many things to be angry about, so the BBC get away without too much scrutiny.

But tomorrow's Marr show includes Farage, IDS and Sajid Javid.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 9:41 pm

Channel 4 News.

Anna Soubry having a real go at Boris Johnson. She said she didn't think he believed Leave would win. He was supporting it because of political ambition. Every time she questioned him, he'd just say, "it'll be all right. It'll be all right."

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 9:44 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Channel 4 News.

Anna Soubry having a real go at Boris Johnson. She said she didn't think he believed Leave would win. He was supporting it because of political ambition. Every time she questioned him, he'd just say, "it'll be all right. It'll be all right."

About bloody time someone did this. Why did she wait until two days after, instead of two days before?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 9:44 pm

The process for withdrawing from the European Union

This document sets out the process that would follow a vote to leave the European
Union, and the prospects for negotiations.

The UK’s withdrawal from the EU would mean unravelling all the rights and obligations
– from access to the Single Market, to structural funds for poorer regions, to joint action
on sanctions – that the UK has acquired both during our accession to the EU and over
our 40 year membership. As well as negotiating its withdrawal, the UK would also want to
negotiate its post-exit arrangements with the EU.

The complexity of the negotiations, and the need for the UK to negotiate adequate
access to the Single Market after it leaves the EU, would make it difficult to complete a
successful negotiation before the two year deadline expired. Any extension to the two year
period set out in the Treaty would require the agreement of all 27 remaining EU Member
States.

If the UK was to reach the end of the two year period specified by Article 50 without
having reached an agreement, and if any of the 27 other Member States vetoed an extension
of this period, this would lead to the UK leaving the EU with no immediate replacement
agreed, without any protection under EU law for the rights of UK business to trade on a
preferential basis with Europe or the EU’s free trade agreement partners, UK citizens to live
and work in Europe, or UK travellers to move about freely in Europe.

Regular EU decision-making would continue while we negotiated to leave. Our vote
to leave, and the withdrawal negotiations themselves, would have an impact on our ability
to affect the EU’s decision-making. But we would be bound by new EU legislation up to the
moment we left.

While these negotiations continued, we would be constrained in our ability to negotiate
and conclude new trade agreements with countries outside the EU. The countries with which
we currently have preferential trade agreements through the EU are likely to want to see the
terms of our future relationship with the EU before negotiating any new trade agreements with
the UK. In addition, many of our trading partners, including the United States, are already
negotiating with the EU. Before they start negotiations with the UK they are likely to want
those deals to conclude.

It is therefore probable that it would take an extended period to negotiate first
our exit from the EU, secondly our future arrangements with the EU, and thirdly our
trade deals with countries outside of the EU, on any terms that would be acceptable to
the UK. In short, a vote to leave the EU would be the start, not the end, of a process. It
could lead to up to a decade or more of uncertainty.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _ready.pdf

Tory government rules for six years selling off tax-payer owned assets, decimating local authority budgets, starving the NHS, alienating groups of people all over the nation. Held an EU referendum, knowingly placing the people and country in danger without any conditions prior this vote. The UK voted to leave the EU and Tory government can say to the people, you decided to do this yourselves, nothing to do with Tory government.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 9:45 pm

Temulkar wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
Temulkar wrote: Cameron has said that he will leave it for the next PM so it wont be invoked until September at the earliest and then a GE is likely to be called for fresh mandate etc, so A50 is left hanging until that is decided.

That is what he has said....he is a liar though remember

There is no way that A50 will be allowed to wait that long....the EU will not let it happen. Perhaps a couple of weeks but no longer

They will find a way I am sure

Imagine the following

Cameron: I need 3 months
Merkel: You have two weeks
Cameron: We need time to elect a new leader
Merkel: Thatcher was replaced in 5 days
Cameron: But we have a process to follow
Merkel: You were the ones who said they wanted to leave and you said in the campaign you would invoke A50 as soon as possible
Cameron: But I lied....it is what I do.....like the scorpion in the frog and the scorpion fable
Merkel: Okay then.....if you do not start the process now we will announce tomorrow that any access to the single market will be linked to Schengen
Cameron: Oh
Merkel: And we will also announce that the UK will probably lose passporting.....
Cameron: But what about my credibility
All: Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Merkel and Europe know as well as everyone else a second referedum is a possibility and wont spook that just like Ireland, it has been modus operandi for the EU.

If there was an offer for a second referendum that may stay their hand but is it on offer really? Is it likely? Can Cameron convince them of that - if it was possible surely he wouldn't have resigned

It will buy some time but not 3 months, unless there is some guarantee

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 9:49 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Channel 4 News.

Anna Soubry having a real go at Boris Johnson. She said she didn't think he believed Leave would win. He was supporting it because of political ambition. Every time she questioned him, he'd just say, "it'll be all right. It'll be all right."

It really is ... ? I can't think of an adequate description.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 9:51 pm

Tory government's actions are impossibly negligent, Cameron's resignation so inadequate following the referendum. It's as though Tory government have intentionally scuppered the UK.

TR'sGhost · Post by **TR'sGhost** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 9:52 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Can we demand an election due to the non-appearance and inaction of elected cabinet? Surely, even if for the sake of the money markets it's rapidly becoming a national emergency? Is there anything that covers an event like this?

Don't worry, UKIP's parliamentary spokesbeing whose name I forget but it ain't Carswell their only MP, has assured the Daily Express the economy and pound had recovered fine by Friday teatime.

So no need to worry, just rejoice in your freedom and share the nation's outrage at Johnny Foreigner and the Jocks having a hissy fit. Everything's going to be wonderful.

I think that covers the Daily Express for today. And tomorrow and most of the next 12 months.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 9:59 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
Temulkar wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
That is what he has said....he is a liar though remember

There is no way that A50 will be allowed to wait that long....the EU will not let it happen. Perhaps a couple of weeks but no longer

They will find a way I am sure

Imagine the following

Cameron: I need 3 months
Merkel: You have two weeks
Cameron: We need time to elect a new leader
Merkel: Thatcher was replaced in 5 days
Cameron: But we have a process to follow
Merkel: You were the ones who said they wanted to leave and you said in the campaign you would invoke A50 as soon as possible
Cameron: But I lied....it is what I do.....like the scorpion in the frog and the scorpion fable
Merkel: Okay then.....if you do not start the process now we will announce tomorrow that any access to the single market will be linked to Schengen
Cameron: Oh
Merkel: And we will also announce that the UK will probably lose passporting.....
Cameron: But what about my credibility
All: Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Merkel and Europe know as well as everyone else a second referedum is a possibility and wont spook that just like Ireland, it has been modus operandi for the EU.

If there was an offer for a second referendum that may stay their hand but is it on offer really? Is it likely? Can Cameron convince them of that - if it was possible surely he wouldn't have resigned

It will buy some time but not 3 months, unless there is some guarantee

Their hand is meaningless, they cant kick us out, they cant invoke the article, only the british prime minister can and the current one has said he wont, he really isnt going to do anything now but chillax.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 10:00 pm

Things are really a bit topsy turvey - I thought it was the right going for a coup

Daniel France, Retweeted
Henry Zeffman ‏@hzeffman 35m35 minutes ago
Henry Zeffman Retweeted Neil Henderson
Labour story here by @DanielBoffey says Rosie Winterton gathering support for a McDonnell leadership bid. Remarkable

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 10:01 pm

TR'sGhost wrote:I think that covers the Daily Express for today. And tomorrow and most of the next 12 months.

Allow me to fill in the rest for you:

"Our Diana, wasn't she lovely"
"Ooh, that Kate, isn't she lovely... but she's no Diana"
"Immigrants invade Blighty but Boris beats them back"
"Cake gives you cancer"
"Cake doesn't give you cancer"
"Bloody immigrants"
"More bloody immigrants"
"Corbyn. Communist."
"Even more bloody immigrants"
"Freeeeeeeedoooooom"
"Flooding. Immigrants fault."
"Our Diana, wasn't she lovely"
"Ooh, that Kate, isn't she lovely... but she's no Diana"
"Cake gives you cancer"
Etc.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 10:01 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
Temulkar wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
That is what he has said....he is a liar though remember

There is no way that A50 will be allowed to wait that long....the EU will not let it happen. Perhaps a couple of weeks but no longer

They will find a way I am sure

Imagine the following

Cameron: I need 3 months
Merkel: You have two weeks
Cameron: We need time to elect a new leader
Merkel: Thatcher was replaced in 5 days
Cameron: But we have a process to follow
Merkel: You were the ones who said they wanted to leave and you said in the campaign you would invoke A50 as soon as possible
Cameron: But I lied....it is what I do.....like the scorpion in the frog and the scorpion fable
Merkel: Okay then.....if you do not start the process now we will announce tomorrow that any access to the single market will be linked to Schengen
Cameron: Oh
Merkel: And we will also announce that the UK will probably lose passporting.....
Cameron: But what about my credibility
All: Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Merkel and Europe know as well as everyone else a second referedum is a possibility and wont spook that just like Ireland, it has been modus operandi for the EU.

If there was an offer for a second referendum that may stay their hand but is it on offer really? Is it likely? Can Cameron convince them of that - if it was possible surely he wouldn't have resigned

It will buy some time but not 3 months, unless there is some guarantee

We mustn't look to Cameron to sort anything out, or find a solution. He's not up to it.

I haven't signed the petition because I think it would be risky to have another referendum...
There's no guarantee it would come out on the side of Remain, and then where would we be? There would be even more accusations directed at those who stuck to their guns and believed they were making the right decision.

We've had to face some scary facts over the last two days but if there was still a majority for Leave, think of the consequences.

We've also seen or heard of some ugly behaviour. I think we've poked the hornets nest enough.

What would we be saying if it had been a narrow vote for Remain and leave were signing a petition for a re-play? We'd be saying it was a fair fight and a majority is a majority however small.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 10:05 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:Things are really a bit topsy turvey - I thought it was the right going for a coup

Daniel France, Retweeted
Henry Zeffman ‏@hzeffman 35m35 minutes ago
Henry Zeffman Retweeted Neil Henderson
Labour story here by @DanielBoffey says Rosie Winterton gathering support for a McDonnell leadership bid. Remarkable

Jesus Christ. I think come Monday I quit.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 10:11 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
Temulkar wrote: Merkel and Europe know as well as everyone else a second referedum is a possibility and wont spook that just like Ireland, it has been modus operandi for the EU.

If there was an offer for a second referendum that may stay their hand but is it on offer really? Is it likely? Can Cameron convince them of that - if it was possible surely he wouldn't have resigned

It will buy some time but not 3 months, unless there is some guarantee
We mustn't look to Cameron to sort anything out, or find a solution. He's not up to it.

I haven't signed the petition because I think it would be risky to have another referendum...
There's no guarantee it would come out on the side of Remain, and then where would we be? There would be even more accusations directed at those who stuck to their guns and believed they were making the right decision.

We've had to face some scary facts over the last two days but if there was still a majority for Leave, think of the consequences.

We've also seen or heard of some ugly behaviour. I think we've poked the hornets nest enough.

What would we be saying if it had been a narrow vote for Remain and leave were signing a petition for a re-play? We'd be saying it was a fair fight and a majority is a majority however small.

Will not disagree but there is a difference between In and Out - to have a change to a constitutional position there should have been more than just a simple majority.

Making a massive change like this should have required more than we had

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 10:12 pm

Once again the dead cat is being flung on the table. Direct the attention to Labour, and we'll all forget about Cameron's cowardly exit.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 10:22 pm

But Corbyn’s real crime during the campaign was a failure to insert Labour values about workers’ rights and European solidarity into the debate. His absence of leadership gave space to Project Fear and a narrow, econometric case for Europe that failed to stir Labour voters.

Truth be told, he was never that interested in keeping Britain in Europe and the public clocked it: on the streets of Stoke-on-Trent, Labour voters kept on asking just what the party’s position was.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... yn-must-go" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't recognise this, Tristram Hunt. What in the world do you think you're doing? You're lying. If Stoke didn't know what Labour's position was on the EU, who's fault would that have been? I resent you making enemies out of Labour party MPs and the Labour party leader.

Yet my real anger is at the hideous cynicism of Boris Johnson, Daniel Hannan and Vote Leave.

Based on what? Your entire article is how the EU referendum result was Corbyn's fault. Tories laugh their asses off some more. What are you thinking? Foolish. I'm not feeling very well now.

As we now face the prospect of a Boris Johnson-led scuttle, bankrolled by Tory donors desperate to dismantle labour protection and offshore industry, we cannot have those Labour values missing in action again.

Whatever.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 10:23 pm

Don't ever turn on your own people.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 10:26 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:Will not disagree but there is a difference between In and Out - to have a change to a constitutional position there should have been more than just a simple majority.

Making a massive change like this should have required more than we had

(cJA edit)

I completely agree - this is insanity.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 10:26 pm

Labour on verge of death if true

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... dum-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 10:27 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:Things are really a bit topsy turvey - I thought it was the right going for a coup

Daniel France, Retweeted
Henry Zeffman ‏@hzeffman 35m35 minutes ago
Henry Zeffman Retweeted Neil Henderson
Labour story here by @DanielBoffey says Rosie Winterton gathering support for a McDonnell leadership bid. Remarkable
Jesus Christ. I think come Monday I quit.

So will I if true, but I've just looked at @DanielBoffey time line and there is nothing there so either deleted or just malicious stirring by someone.
I really cannot see Rosie Winterton working to get McDonnell elected. Why go through all this pain to get someone on the same side as Corbyn?
Also McDonnell in a coup against JC? Sounds fishy

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 10:29 pm

Labour members need to do something about Jeremy Corbyn
Tristram Hunt

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... yn-must-go" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

goddamn you

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 10:32 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
JonnyT1234 wrote:Incidentally, perhaps the PLP should try mitigating Corbyn's weaknesses while amplifying his strengths, instead of just attacking him. Yes, I'm back to my, "the Party needs to be more than just one man" refrain, but I believe it would work much better than imposing an unwanted replacement on the membership.

If Corbyn isn't being persuasive enough on TV, put some else up who is. Let Corbyn rally the converted to make sure the base is strong. Get someone else to butter up and persuade the centrists.

Play as a team for once.
This.

What the 'centre left' don't seem to realise is that the best way to challenge to lead the party is to show the party that they are worth voting for. The sense of entitlement is utterly galling.

I've no idea what's going on with Labour. Has Corbyn agreed to fall? Is this being staged? What the hell is going on?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 10:36 pm

"I don’t think a smaller, poorer England is going to make things better for the prospects of my son’s Year 3 or the struggling teacher in Stoke. In fact, we are now more at risk from the whims of global capital and multinational corporations than we were last week.

So my belief that we need a new leader is not rooted in Westminster but on the streets of Stoke-on-Trent. This is the deepest peacetime crisis in our country for decades and our party cannot afford to continue with self-indulgence.

We need a leader who can hold Boris Johnson to account, stand up for Labour voters and be ready to walk through the door of Downing Street in as little as a year’s time.

The British people have been sold a pup and now we need the Labour lion to roar."

Tristram Hunt is MP for Stoke-on-Trent

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... yn-must-go" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 10:42 pm

Okay. I'm delighted there's talk of Labour government within a year. I'm really happy Tristram Hunt understands leaving the EU puts the UK in some pretty shit. Great. What's going on though? What's happening here?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 10:44 pm

citizenJA wrote:"I don’t think a smaller, poorer England is going to make things better for the prospects of my son’s Year 3 or the struggling teacher in Stoke. In fact, we are now more at risk from the whims of global capital and multinational corporations than we were last week.

So my belief that we need a new leader is not rooted in Westminster but on the streets of Stoke-on-Trent. This is the deepest peacetime crisis in our country for decades and our party cannot afford to continue with self-indulgence.

We need a leader who can hold Boris Johnson to account, stand up for Labour voters and be ready to walk through the door of Downing Street in as little as a year’s time.

The British people have been sold a pup and now we need the Labour lion to roar."

Tristram Hunt is MP for Stoke-on-Trent

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... yn-must-go" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Why couldn't the local member for Stoke-on-Trent influence those in his constituency to vote for 'In'? Surely he must know them and their challenges better than Corbyn

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 10:44 pm

citizenJA wrote:"I don’t think a smaller, poorer England is going to make things better for the prospects of my son’s Year 3 or the struggling teacher in Stoke. In fact, we are now more at risk from the whims of global capital and multinational corporations than we were last week.

So my belief that we need a new leader is not rooted in Westminster but on the streets of Stoke-on-Trent. This is the deepest peacetime crisis in our country for decades and our party cannot afford to continue with self-indulgence.

We need a leader who can hold Boris Johnson to account, stand up for Labour voters and be ready to walk through the door of Downing Street in as little as a year’s time.

The British people have been sold a pup and now we need the Labour lion to roar."

Tristram Hunt is MP for Stoke-on-Trent

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... yn-must-go" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Labour's very own Rhyming Slang.

And I'm no Corbynista.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 10:46 pm

edited due to formatting errors. No one's content was deleted

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 10:47 pm

After yesterday’s European referendum, politicians of all parties must listen to and respect the outcome of the vote

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