Saturday 25th and Sunday 26th June 2016

[gilsey]

I watched Corbyn's big speech yesterday and I didn't find it very impressive. He waffled on about irrelevant rubbish for ages before speaking vaguely about a plan for exit negotiations which the opposition have no control over and completely failed to attack the Tories for this complete and utter clusterfuck. I find it impossible to see him as a PM. I feel his inability to inspire confidence in the PLP is more than a difference of political opinion. I share some of Corbyn's outlook but have no confidence in him to deliver it. If the left really has the best interests of the party at heart, they need to put up a more capable candidate.

Yes I saw it, too. I was waiting for him to get to the point. I still am.

At the risk (yeah, certainty) of boring everyone - the referendum and it's outcome wasn't Jeremy Corbyn's fault. But he is not the person to deal with the fall-out of the result, as he demonstrated yesterday.

I think the point is, that if it was up to him, Corbyn would abide by the result of the referendum, because he is an honest man. Any talk of not invoking Art 50 would not sit well with him.

McDonnell may not be so scrupulous.

[Rebecca]

Paul Mason; An open letter to Labour MPs



Dear Labour MPs...
Were living through a massive and complex historic moment. Brexit signals, at the very least, the high watermark of globalisation. I didn't vote for it and I don't relish dealing with it.
But this is not Labour's defeat. We did not call the referendum; even those of you who chose to take part in the government-led campaign were not its leaders. This is the Tories' catastrophe.
The exit polling shows Labour persuaded 2/3 of its supporters to vote Remain. I think that is an achievement. And in part it is an achievement for Corbyn and Mcdonnell. Without the "remain and reform" demand I think even more of our own people would have voted out.
The Tories are in turmoil. There is a swing of former No voters in Scotland towards independence. The constitutional crisis means PLP members will be required to act as parliamentarians first, party members second in the next days.
Our party activists on the ground need to be getting ready for a general election; reassuring migrant communities; facing down the wave of racism that's been triggered. The party conference needs to be re-engineered so we can discuss Labour policy for the post-EU situation.
This is not the time to spend two months re-running last year's leadership election.
Our strategic problem is to reconnect not only with the Labour core voters who backed Brexit but with those who have drifted to UKIP.
I don't know whether the present leadership can do that; I do know all the previous leaderships failed to do it. We need to work out a plan and try.
Maybe in challenging Corbyn some of you are really preparing to split the Labour movement and form some new centrist party with Vince Cable and co? Say it openly then and get on with it. You will guarantee Tory rule for a decade but it's your right.
But if so, please stop trying to sabotage this party - a historic creation of the British working class, and the only resilient institution for social justice and democracy we have.
Is Corbyn the ideal leader? It's impossible to tell what an ideal leader is. For the historic period that's opened up, with populist politics and nationalist rhetoric corroding the power of reason - I really don't know what kind of leadership we will need. He'll be tested, for sure, and in any case we have to find a new generation prepared to redefine Labour politics for an era of uncertainty.
But one thing I do know: Corbyn is incapable of lying to the British people; he is immured to elite politics; he didn't spend his entire life in a Machievellean project to gain power and an invite to Oleg Deripaska's yacht.
That's why I voted for him and will do so again if you trigger a leadership vote.
I disagree with Corbyn on Trident, on Syria and I would have liked him to demand stronger reforms from Europe. I disagreed with Miliband on a lot more - but I respected him as a politician of principle and the elected leader.
In your minds I suspect some of you crave the emergence of a less slick, more plebeian Blair. Somebody to fight populism with populism. The referendum was won by clowns: Johnson and Farage. If we in Labour want to summon up our own populist clown let's think hard before doing so.
We need a careful process of analysis and rebuilding, based on evidence not hysteria.
As I write some shadow cabinet members are resigning, claiming Corbyn is ineffective. Yet he delivered what Cameron could not - 2/3 of his voters, against the combined might of Fleet St.
They are saying we can't win an election with Corbyn. We're on 32% - neck and neck with the Tories.
I'm certain we cannot win with yet another establishment technocrat. If a single member of the right of Labour had an analysis of what went wrong that goes beyond"we don't like Corbyn's style" I'd listen. It's not there.
Corbyn needs to form a new shadow cabinet of people who actually want to represent the workers, youth and minorities of this country and understand the first principle of our movement - stick together.

This.
That's what I meant when I asked what the flippin fuck they think they are doing.
Just used fewer words.

[HindleA]

Ivan Lewis has written to JC,asking him to resign.

[ohsocynical]

Well, this is awkward.

That my friend, is the understatement of the year.

[PorFavor]

I watched Corbyn's big speech yesterday and I didn't find it very impressive. He waffled on about irrelevant rubbish for ages before speaking vaguely about a plan for exit negotiations which the opposition have no control over and completely failed to attack the Tories for this complete and utter clusterfuck. I find it impossible to see him as a PM. I feel his inability to inspire confidence in the PLP is more than a difference of political opinion. I share some of Corbyn's outlook but have no confidence in him to deliver it. If the left really has the best interests of the party at heart, they need to put up a more capable candidate.

Yes I saw it, too. I was waiting for him to get to the point. I still am.

At the risk (yeah, certainty) of boring everyone - the referendum and it's outcome wasn't Jeremy Corbyn's fault. But he is not the person to deal with the fall-out of the result, as he demonstrated yesterday.

I think the point is, that if it was up to him, Corbyn would abide by the result of the referendum, because he is an honest man. Any talk of not invoking Art 50 would not sit well with him.

McDonnell may not be so scrupulous.

That's hardly a rallying call for Labour supporters or indeed anybody else, though, is it? (Invoking Article 50, that is.)

[Willow904]

I watched Corbyn's big speech yesterday and I didn't find it very impressive. He waffled on about irrelevant rubbish for ages before speaking vaguely about a plan for exit negotiations which the opposition have no control over and completely failed to attack the Tories for this complete and utter clusterfuck. I find it impossible to see him as a PM. I feel his inability to inspire confidence in the PLP is more than a difference of political opinion. I share some of Corbyn's outlook but have no confidence in him to deliver it. If the left really has the best interests of the party at heart, they need to put up a more capable candidate.

But can you not see how destructive this putsch is?

I can see that Labour has lost so much support, and is on the verge of losing so much more, that it really doesn't matter any more. I am so angry about the mess the Tories have made with this referendum. Tristram Hunt channelled that anger on Newsnight the other night, he took the words out of my mouth when the leave guy was back tracking on the 350m for the NHS and he said " but I saw it on a bus!". He was articulating what I felt in a way Jeremy Corbyn never has at any point if his leadership. Corbyn's response to the leave vote has confirmed for me that he doesn't share my perspective and he can't adequately represent me. I would vote for a party with Tristram Hunt and Vince Cable in it and you clearly wouldn't, so it seems to me that if you won't stretch to meet me, you must understand why I'm finding it so hard to stretch to meet you. And the "broad church" is no more.

[gilsey]

Dear lord I hope there is no truth to this. But, in this world, it actually feels plausible.

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives ... ar-stupid/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is really frightening.

I don't usually think much of Craig Murray but I actually want to believe this, because I can see some logic behind it.
Otherwise I just can't see what the blairites think they're doing.

[TobyLatimer]

Gloria De Piiero has gone

[gilsey]

Yes I saw it, too. I was waiting for him to get to the point. I still am.

At the risk (yeah, certainty) of boring everyone - the referendum and it's outcome wasn't Jeremy Corbyn's fault. But he is not the person to deal with the fall-out of the result, as he demonstrated yesterday.

I think the point is, that if it was up to him, Corbyn would abide by the result of the referendum, because he is an honest man. Any talk of not invoking Art 50 would not sit well with him.

McDonnell may not be so scrupulous.

That's hardly a rallying call for Labour supporters or indeed anybody else, though, is it? (Invoking Article 50, that is.)

I'm not suggesting for a moment that it is, I'm just saying that that was what came out to me as the point of the speech.
Personally I would much prefer Labour to come out and say they won't support invoking art 50, should it come before parliament, which it has to, doesn't it?

I don't support Corbyn's position.

[Willow904]

I watched Corbyn's big speech yesterday and I didn't find it very impressive. He waffled on about irrelevant rubbish for ages before speaking vaguely about a plan for exit negotiations which the opposition have no control over and completely failed to attack the Tories for this complete and utter clusterfuck. I find it impossible to see him as a PM. I feel his inability to inspire confidence in the PLP is more than a difference of political opinion. I share some of Corbyn's outlook but have no confidence in him to deliver it. If the left really has the best interests of the party at heart, they need to put up a more capable candidate.

Yes I saw it, too. I was waiting for him to get to the point. I still am.

At the risk (yeah, certainty) of boring everyone - the referendum and it's outcome wasn't Jeremy Corbyn's fault. But he is not the person to deal with the fall-out of the result, as he demonstrated yesterday.

I think the point is, that if it was up to him, Corbyn would abide by the result of the referendum, because he is an honest man. Any talk of not invoking Art 50 would not sit well with him.

McDonnell may not be so scrupulous.

I think that's why I like McDonnell more. He's more willing to do the wrong thing to achieve the right outcome. A real politician, in other words.

[PorFavor]

I think the point is, that if it was up to him, Corbyn would abide by the result of the referendum, because he is an honest man. Any talk of not invoking Art 50 would not sit well with him.

McDonnell may not be so scrupulous.

That's hardly a rallying call for Labour supporters or indeed anybody else, though, is it? (Invoking Article 50, that is.)

I'm not suggesting for a moment that it is, I'm just saying that that was what came out to me as the point of the speech.
Personally I would much prefer Labour to come out and say they won't support invoking art 50, should it come before parliament, which it has to, doesn't it?

I don't support Corbyn's position.

Hello, there. It was a sort of frustrated rhetorical question. So I hope that you're not suggesting that I'm suggesting that you were suggesting . . . . .

(I've read your posts on the subject of Jeremy Corbyn so I'm aware of your position.)

[NonOxCol]

Well, my focus will be drowned out today by the PLP, but here's something we really ought to know and - let's be honest - should have figured out when the number of signatures exceeds the majority by a factor of over 2.5:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/w ... gwe2whr529" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[RogerOThornhill]

I think that's why I like McDonnell more. He's more willing to do the wrong thing to achieve the right outcome. A real politician, in other words.

Labour needs someone with as little baggage as possible - I'm afraid McDonnell has lots.

I think he'd be very good as leader but what he's said in the past will be used against him time and again.

[Maeght]

http://stumblingandmumbling.typepad.com ... orbyn.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Quote

'The proposed vote of no-confidence in Jeremy Corbyn worries me: I fear it is based in part upon three motives that are wrong, one of which is plain vicious'.

The whole article is well worth reading.

[Willow904]

I think the point is, that if it was up to him, Corbyn would abide by the result of the referendum, because he is an honest man. Any talk of not invoking Art 50 would not sit well with him.

McDonnell may not be so scrupulous.

That's hardly a rallying call for Labour supporters or indeed anybody else, though, is it? (Invoking Article 50, that is.)

I'm not suggesting for a moment that it is, I'm just saying that that was what came out to me as the point of the speech.
Personally I would much prefer Labour to come out and say they won't support invoking art 50, should it come before parliament, which it has to, doesn't it?

I don't support Corbyn's position.

Yes, I think that's it. I want Labour to fight leaving the EU, even now. The Tories have been trying to take us out for years and they've finally done it. I want a Labour party that's as angry at the Tories as I am over this. That is screaming the house down over the Tory government's current complete abdication of responsibility for what they have done. I don't want a calm , principled man respecting "democracy", I want an angry champion pointing out how undemocratic the referendum was and making sure the country understand how reckless David Cameron was to risk our economic security on a decision made by ill-informed people LIED to by members of his own cabinet. Jeremy Corbyn in the last few days has shown he isn't that person.

I'm really not a fan of Tom Watson, but I agree with Anatoly that as an interim leader he may be the best answer right now. He has a mandate to match Jeremy's and he has the raw fight in him that Labour needs right now. Also I have no doubt he has been preparing for just this sort eventuality which, however Machiavellian that may be, is no bad thing.

[mbc1955]

I watched Corbyn's big speech yesterday and I didn't find it very impressive. He waffled on about irrelevant rubbish for ages before speaking vaguely about a plan for exit negotiations which the opposition have no control over and completely failed to attack the Tories for this complete and utter clusterfuck. I find it impossible to see him as a PM. I feel his inability to inspire confidence in the PLP is more than a difference of political opinion. I share some of Corbyn's outlook but have no confidence in him to deliver it. If the left really has the best interests of the party at heart, they need to put up a more capable candidate.

So who is this great big 'more capable candidate' then? Everybody's so great at saying Corbyn must go but you none of you have a single clue what happens next. If this Gandalf-figure already existed, we'd know about them by now.

I refer the honourable ladies and gentlemen to the Yeats poem I quoted above: he had his finger on the button a century ago, didn't he?

[RogerOThornhill]

Matt Dathan ‏@matt_dathan 11m11 minutes ago
Lucy Powell has told MPs she's resigning from shadow cabinet this afternoon. Ian Murray set to go at midday, I hear

If we're going to have a period of turmoil then let's have it now rather than later. get it out of the way.

And this...

Philip Collins ‏@PCollinsTimes 13m13 minutes ago
The winning position for an election is in the EU if we get major changes to free movement. If Labour gets there under a proper leader...

...is true I think.

[Willow904]

I think that's why I like McDonnell more. He's more willing to do the wrong thing to achieve the right outcome. A real politician, in other words.

Labour needs someone with as little baggage as possible - I'm afraid McDonnell has lots.

I think he'd be very good as leader but what he's said in the past will be used against him time and again.

Agreed.

[mbc1955]

So, basically, let's throw a whole lot of shit against a wall and hope like hell that something sticks.

[gilsey]

Matt Dathan ‏@matt_dathan 11m11 minutes ago
Lucy Powell has told MPs she's resigning from shadow cabinet this afternoon. Ian Murray set to go at midday, I hear

If we're going to have a period of turmoil then let's have it now rather than later. get it out of the way.

And this...

Philip Collins ‏@PCollinsTimes 13m13 minutes ago
The winning position for an election is in the EU if we get major changes to free movement. If Labour gets there under a proper leader...

...is true I think.

True, but surely impossible? Major changes to free movement? Not if it's proposed by anyone with a UK passport.
I don't get the impression that the EU are minded to make a fundamental change to the principles of the free market for us.

[NonOxCol]

That's hardly a rallying call for Labour supporters or indeed anybody else, though, is it? (Invoking Article 50, that is.)

I'm not suggesting for a moment that it is, I'm just saying that that was what came out to me as the point of the speech.
Personally I would much prefer Labour to come out and say they won't support invoking art 50, should it come before parliament, which it has to, doesn't it?

I don't support Corbyn's position.

Yes, I think that's it. I want Labour to fight leaving the EU, even now. The Tories have been trying to take us out for years and they've finally done it. I want a Labour party that's as angry at the Tories as I am over this. That is screaming the house down over the Tory government's current complete abdication of responsibility for what they have done. I don't want a calm , principled man respecting "democracy", I want an angry champion pointing out how undemocratic the referendum was and making sure the country understand how reckless David Cameron was to risk our economic security on a decision made by ill-informed people LIED to by members of his own cabinet. Jeremy Corbyn in the last few days has shown he isn't that person.

I'm really not a fan of Tom Watson, but I agree with Anatoly that as an interim leader he may be the best answer right now. He has a mandate to match Jeremy's and he has the raw fight in him that Labour needs right now. Also I have no doubt he has been preparing for just this sort eventuality which, however Machiavellian that may be, is no bad thing.

I'm one of the more patient voters where Corbyn is concerned - about halfway between Michael Sylvain and Anatoly (and thanking posts on both sides), albeit moving rightwards in the last few days.

But I agree 100% with this. I listened to some of his speech on the radio and he sounded half asleep. I would have paid good money for a true believer like Brown at that point. I remain appalled at how piss-poor most of the post-Blair/Brown generation of Labour MPs appear to be though, so no I don't have a solution.

[ohsocynical]

Oh - Tom Watson? No thank you.

I could accept him as acting leader until somebody is elected at conference.

If Corbyn is ousted. Labour loses me and my vote for good.
It's not that I think he's perfect I don't [although I like his attitude in refusing to mingle with people he finds distasteful] Its the coup itself. The backstabbing. The disloyalty. The utter selfishness of doing it now. If you look at the rebels referendum percentages it's pretty obvious the Ref wasn't and still isn't the most important thing on their agenda.
That's why I'll never support them again. I was LibDem for a long while and they stuck a finger up at all the people who'd gone to them from Labour. I rejoined Labour because of Ed [and don't tell me they wouldn't have been doing the same to Ed because they would] Now Labour's doing it to all the new members...

I feel sorry for the few decent MPs who are keeping their heads down and trying to serve their constituents, but enough is enough.

[NonOxCol]

Meanwhile....

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and worse still...

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[ohsocynical]

I'm really not a fan of Tom Watson, but I agree with Anatoly that as an interim leader he may be the best answer right now. He has a mandate to match Jeremy's and he has the raw fight in him that Labour needs right now. Also I have no doubt he has been preparing for just this sort eventuality which, however Machiavellian that may be, is no bad thing.

Watson? He can go do something rude to himself with a rolled up copy of The Sun.

He's one of those that's been plotting. So you reward him? Give him what he wants? Support someone who with the other rebels voted to bomb Syria?

Sheesh. No wonder the countries in a mess.

[RogerOThornhill]

True, but surely impossible? Major changes to free movement? Not if it's proposed by anyone with a UK passport.
I don't get the impression that the EU are minded to make a fundamental change to the principles of the free market for us.

To a certain extent, it depends on how much they want to keep us in. Also there's also a likelihood that when we go, others might be encouraged to do the same.

There's nothing wrong with organisations having major strategic rethinks from time to time. Companies do it and offload things - and even subsidiaries - that don't fit the vision. Maybe this is the time that the EU takes a long hard look at itself and comes up with a strategic vision for the future.

[citizenJA]

I think the point is, that if it was up to him, Corbyn would abide by the result of the referendum, because he is an honest man. Any talk of not invoking Art 50 would not sit well with him.
McDonnell may not be so scrupulous.

That's hardly a rallying call for Labour supporters or indeed anybody else, though, is it? (Invoking Article 50, that is.)

I'm not suggesting for a moment that it is, I'm just saying that that was what came out to me as the point of the speech.
Personally I would much prefer Labour to come out and say they won't support invoking art 50, should it come before parliament, which it has to, doesn't it?
I don't support Corbyn's position.

(my emphasis)

There we are then. If Corbyn would abide invoking article 50, I can well understand other Labour MPs wanting him gone. Don't invoke article 50 - it'd be over for the UK.

[ohsocynical]

Paul Mason; An open letter to Labour MPs



Dear Labour MPs...
Were living through a massive and complex historic moment. Brexit signals, at the very least, the high watermark of globalisation. I didn't vote for it and I don't relish dealing with it.
But this is not Labour's defeat. We did not call the referendum; even those of you who chose to take part in the government-led campaign were not its leaders. This is the Tories' catastrophe.
The exit polling shows Labour persuaded 2/3 of its supporters to vote Remain. I think that is an achievement. And in part it is an achievement for Corbyn and Mcdonnell. Without the "remain and reform" demand I think even more of our own people would have voted out.
The Tories are in turmoil. There is a swing of former No voters in Scotland towards independence. The constitutional crisis means PLP members will be required to act as parliamentarians first, party members second in the next days.
Our party activists on the ground need to be getting ready for a general election; reassuring migrant communities; facing down the wave of racism that's been triggered. The party conference needs to be re-engineered so we can discuss Labour policy for the post-EU situation.
This is not the time to spend two months re-running last year's leadership election.
Our strategic problem is to reconnect not only with the Labour core voters who backed Brexit but with those who have drifted to UKIP.
I don't know whether the present leadership can do that; I do know all the previous leaderships failed to do it. We need to work out a plan and try.
Maybe in challenging Corbyn some of you are really preparing to split the Labour movement and form some new centrist party with Vince Cable and co? Say it openly then and get on with it. You will guarantee Tory rule for a decade but it's your right.
But if so, please stop trying to sabotage this party - a historic creation of the British working class, and the only resilient institution for social justice and democracy we have.
Is Corbyn the ideal leader? It's impossible to tell what an ideal leader is. For the historic period that's opened up, with populist politics and nationalist rhetoric corroding the power of reason - I really don't know what kind of leadership we will need. He'll be tested, for sure, and in any case we have to find a new generation prepared to redefine Labour politics for an era of uncertainty.
But one thing I do know: Corbyn is incapable of lying to the British people; he is immured to elite politics; he didn't spend his entire life in a Machievellean project to gain power and an invite to Oleg Deripaska's yacht.
That's why I voted for him and will do so again if you trigger a leadership vote.
I disagree with Corbyn on Trident, on Syria and I would have liked him to demand stronger reforms from Europe. I disagreed with Miliband on a lot more - but I respected him as a politician of principle and the elected leader.
In your minds I suspect some of you crave the emergence of a less slick, more plebeian Blair. Somebody to fight populism with populism. The referendum was won by clowns: Johnson and Farage. If we in Labour want to summon up our own populist clown let's think hard before doing so.
We need a careful process of analysis and rebuilding, based on evidence not hysteria.
As I write some shadow cabinet members are resigning, claiming Corbyn is ineffective. Yet he delivered what Cameron could not - 2/3 of his voters, against the combined might of Fleet St.
They are saying we can't win an election with Corbyn. We're on 32% - neck and neck with the Tories.
I'm certain we cannot win with yet another establishment technocrat. If a single member of the right of Labour had an analysis of what went wrong that goes beyond"we don't like Corbyn's style" I'd listen. It's not there.
Corbyn needs to form a new shadow cabinet of people who actually want to represent the workers, youth and minorities of this country and understand the first principle of our movement - stick together.

This.
That's what I meant when I asked what the flippin fuck they think they are doing.
Just used fewer words.

Flippin Fuck Rebecca, you're right.

[citizenJA]

I don't give a shiny shit about ideological position at this stage. I care that people with no authority to do so are overturning the will of the party they are supposed to serve and being utter bastards about it.

I can accept a leader who could unite the party. I cannot accept a leader who resorted to treachery. Come on, how could we trust them on anything?

The other Labour MPs want someone who won't take the UK out of the EU.

[ohsocynical]

I watched Corbyn's big speech yesterday and I didn't find it very impressive. He waffled on about irrelevant rubbish for ages before speaking vaguely about a plan for exit negotiations which the opposition have no control over and completely failed to attack the Tories for this complete and utter clusterfuck. I find it impossible to see him as a PM. I feel his inability to inspire confidence in the PLP is more than a difference of political opinion. I share some of Corbyn's outlook but have no confidence in him to deliver it. If the left really has the best interests of the party at heart, they need to put up a more capable candidate.

But can you not see how destructive this putsch is?

I can see that Labour has lost so much support, and is on the verge of losing so much more, that it really doesn't matter any more. I am so angry about the mess the Tories have made with this referendum. Tristram Hunt channelled that anger on Newsnight the other night, he took the words out of my mouth when the leave guy was back tracking on the 350m for the NHS and he said " but I saw it on a bus!". He was articulating what I felt in a way Jeremy Corbyn never has at any point if his leadership. Corbyn's response to the leave vote has confirmed for me that he doesn't share my perspective and he can't adequately represent me. I would vote for a party with Tristram Hunt and Vince Cable in it and you clearly wouldn't, so it seems to me that if you won't stretch to meet me, you must understand why I'm finding it so hard to stretch to meet you. And the "broad church" is no more.

As no doubt you will eventually discover, young master Tristram will say whatever suits the moment.

[citizenJA]

But can you not see how destructive this putsch is?

I can see that Labour has lost so much support, and is on the verge of losing so much more, that it really doesn't matter any more. I am so angry about the mess the Tories have made with this referendum. Tristram Hunt channelled that anger on Newsnight the other night, he took the words out of my mouth when the leave guy was back tracking on the 350m for the NHS and he said " but I saw it on a bus!". He was articulating what I felt in a way Jeremy Corbyn never has at any point if his leadership. Corbyn's response to the leave vote has confirmed for me that he doesn't share my perspective and he can't adequately represent me. I would vote for a party with Tristram Hunt and Vince Cable in it and you clearly wouldn't, so it seems to me that if you won't stretch to meet me, you must understand why I'm finding it so hard to stretch to meet you. And the "broad church" is no more.

As no doubt you will eventually discover, young master Tristram will say whatever suits the moment.

He doesn't want the UK broken up and out of the EU. He'd have raised more hell about Corbyn than he's done the last ten months if he were merely a brat.

[ohsocynical]

All the sudden indecision about Corybn. The caving in. The speculation about who's going to lead next.
You're going to get one of the right wing suits.

[citizenJA]

Oh - Tom Watson? No thank you.

I could accept him as acting leader until somebody is elected at conference.

If Corbyn is ousted. Labour loses me and my vote for good.
It's not that I think he's perfect I don't [although I like his attitude in refusing to mingle with people he finds distasteful] Its the coup itself. The backstabbing. The disloyalty. The utter selfishness of doing it now. If you look at the rebels referendum percentages it's pretty obvious the Ref wasn't and still isn't the most important thing on their agenda.
That's why I'll never support them again. I was LibDem for a long while and they stuck a finger up at all the people who'd gone to them from Labour. I rejoined Labour because of Ed [and don't tell me they wouldn't have been doing the same to Ed because they would] Now Labour's doing it to all the new members...

I feel sorry for the few decent MPs who are keeping their heads down and trying to serve their constituents, but enough is enough.

I'm not so sure, Ohso.

[citizenJA]

Good-morning, everyone.

[ohsocynical]

I could accept him as acting leader until somebody is elected at conference.

If Corbyn is ousted. Labour loses me and my vote for good.
It's not that I think he's perfect I don't [although I like his attitude in refusing to mingle with people he finds distasteful] Its the coup itself. The backstabbing. The disloyalty. The utter selfishness of doing it now. If you look at the rebels referendum percentages it's pretty obvious the Ref wasn't and still isn't the most important thing on their agenda.
That's why I'll never support them again. I was LibDem for a long while and they stuck a finger up at all the people who'd gone to them from Labour. I rejoined Labour because of Ed [and don't tell me they wouldn't have been doing the same to Ed because they would] Now Labour's doing it to all the new members...

I feel sorry for the few decent MPs who are keeping their heads down and trying to serve their constituents, but enough is enough.

I'm not so sure, Ohso.

I am CJA. I am.

[TobyLatimer]

Keeping a close eye on Kendall, Cooper, Jarvis & Unumma. Alan Johnson keeping his powder dry.

[JonnyT1234]

Alastair Campbell ‏@campbellclaret 7m7 minutes ago
Alastair Campbell Retweeted WordsAreCheap
Yes many new members still think he is the Messiah. But many see he cannot win an election that may be soon

Yes, think this is the point - we need a leader in that can win and we need it fast not in 2020.

I think you are right Roger.

Events are overtaking us. We don't have the luxury of time on our side.

At what point does it dawn on everyone that no such leader exists within the PLP? If they did, Corbyn would not be leader now.

[tinyclanger2]

http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/26/nicola-st ... u-5967485/?
Nicola Sturgeon says Scotland could block UK’s exit from EU

I hope she's right.

[citizenJA]

All the sudden indecision about Corybn. The caving in. The speculation about who's going to lead next.
You're going to get one of the right wing suits.

One that won't invoke article 50
If Corbyn could be persuaded to leave the referendum vote alone, not invoke article 50, he'd likely not be facing this shit.

[howsillyofme1]

Well here we go....chaos theory put to the test

Nice to see the PLP managing to shield the Tories again.....who is the 5th columnist

Labour will be dead....accept it now...the neolibs want to take over and there will be no left leaning party left in the UK

Wonder if the new leader of the neolibs will be brave enough to put themselves up for election......perhaps against Corbyn?

The major concern should be about what state the UK will be in after the markets get hold of it tomorrow

No Government and no plan......but no our 'Labour' politicians are still trying to play the Great Game!

Wankers the lot of them!

[RogerOThornhill]

All the sudden indecision about Corybn. The caving in. The speculation about who's going to lead next.
You're going to get one of the right wing suits.

Well that depends on who it might be. If it was Starmer I'd be happy with that. We need serious people in charge right now.

But we do need a leadership contest I'm certain of that. The leader has to carry his/her MPs with them and Corbyn clearly isn't doing that right now.

The thought that Boris might be PM is just too horrific to imagine.

[ohsocynical]

All the brave words about Labour finally connecting up with the neglected left. About it being good to have someone in charge that was honest. Stood by his priniciples.
That the Right had lost the last two elections, time to change direction?

That didn't last long did it.

[citizenJA]

James O'Brien just shared this comment from btl at the G
If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.

Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.

With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.

How?

Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.

And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.

The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.

The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?

Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.

If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.

All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.

Yes, this was the content in the link Roger posted last night. It's tremendous. And accurate.

[howsillyofme1]

Keeping a close eye on Kendall, Cooper, Jarvis & Unumma. Alan Johnson keeping his powder dry.

FFS......

[PorFavor]

@ohsocynical

You like that Jeremy Corbyn won't "mingle with people he finds distasteful"?

I think that's part of what puts me off him. Monkish, overly fastidious, and above the fray is the image he projects to me. He makes me feel that he wouldn't approve of me if we were to meet. I'd expect it from a Conservative and even welcome it; but that's not how I like to be made to feel by a Labour leader. Disagreement yes - but disdain, however veiled, is not what I want.


All very subjective, I know . . . .

[ohsocynical]

All the sudden indecision about Corybn. The caving in. The speculation about who's going to lead next.
You're going to get one of the right wing suits.

One that won't invoke article 50
If Corbyn could be persuaded to leave the referendum vote alone, not invoke article 50, he'd likely not be facing this shit.

But that's only speculation .... This has been planned for a long time. It didn't just happen overnight.

[citizenJA]

Keeping a close eye on Kendall, Cooper, Jarvis & Unumma. Alan Johnson keeping his powder dry.

FFS......

Corbyn has that integrity problem. He isn't ruthless enough to toss the EU referendum result out the window.

[TR'sGhost]

I watched Corbyn's big speech yesterday and I didn't find it very impressive. He waffled on about irrelevant rubbish for ages before speaking vaguely about a plan for exit negotiations which the opposition have no control over and completely failed to attack the Tories for this complete and utter clusterfuck. I find it impossible to see him as a PM. I feel his inability to inspire confidence in the PLP is more than a difference of political opinion. I share some of Corbyn's outlook but have no confidence in him to deliver it. If the left really has the best interests of the party at heart, they need to put up a more capable candidate.

Ok. Let's say Corbyn gives the speech of his career, straight from the heart.

He points out that the country is up shit creek and the man that got it there has just thrown the paddles overboard and run away.

That the Tories and UKIP have, with the aid of the media, been stoking up racism, xenophobia and hatred since 2008. That their solution to all questions on all issues is that more people must be encouraged to hate each other more every day. Old against young, employed against sick, everyone against the disabled, English against Scots and Welsh and vice versa, and so on until everyone passionately hates everyone else in a social darwinist anarcho-capitalist shit hole. A drag race to the bottom and a banana republic that hasn't even got the climate to grow bananas

The consequence is that unless something is done to halt the process, the UK is a matter of weeks or at most months from joining the third world and the only people who will benefit from that are the shiny suited well polished lying shits who created this situation.

The leaders of the Labour party, SNP, LibDems and concerned Conservatives have asked for an interview at the palace where they shall together request that the Queen exercises the royal perogative of disolving Parliament immediately because the country can not carry on in this leaderless state. The people deserve and need better than that.

Two thirds of Labour voters voted to remain, and they and everyone else who wants to halt this destruction of our way of life, whatever their previous party loyalty, are asked to put aside their differences and unite behind what will not be a Labour government but a national government formed for the purpose of steering us all through this crisis. That government will re-enter negotiations with our European partners in good faith and try and salvage what we can.

To which the press, other media, UKIP, the Tory right and the shiny suited, well polished TV friendly well-off smooth operators of the PLP respond in unison -

"Don't listen to Corbyn, he doesn't sing the National Anthem, Corbyn must go."
"Corbyn insults millions of Brexiters, Labour's traditional core voters furious, Corbyn must go."
"Corbyn doesn't think Labour can win alone, Corbyn must go."
"Corbyn betrays British people, Corbyn must go."
"Corbyn refuses to appeal to the proudly nationalist indigenous working class, Corbyn must go."
"Corbyn is useless, Corbyn must go, three cheers for Hilary, Boris and Nigel!"

Frankly, I think we're fucked. Welcome to the future. It will not be pleasant.

[citizenJA]

All the sudden indecision about Corybn. The caving in. The speculation about who's going to lead next.
You're going to get one of the right wing suits.

One that won't invoke article 50
If Corbyn could be persuaded to leave the referendum vote alone, not invoke article 50, he'd likely not be facing this shit.

But that's only speculation .... This has been planned for a long time. It didn't just happen overnight.

I don't know

[ohsocynical]

@ohsocynical

You like that Jeremy Corbyn won't "mingle with people he finds distasteful"?

I think that's part of what puts me off him. Monkish, overly fastidious, and above the fray is the image he projects to me. He makes me feel that he wouldn't approve of me if we were to meet. I'd expect it from a Conservative and even welcome it; but that's not how I like to be made to feel by a Labour leader. Disagreement yes - but disdain, however veiled, is not what I want.


All very subjective, I know . . . .

Fraid I do.

[AngryAsWell]

http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/26/nicola-st ... u-5967485/?
Nicola Sturgeon says Scotland could block UK’s exit from EU

I hope she's right.

Seems same applies to Wales

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