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In Westminster listening to huge roars from pro-Corbyn rally - while lampooned by his own MPs not sure who in Labour could draw such crowds
They're saying 10,000 turned up with just 24 hours notice.
There really is a different mood in the country. Leave is said to be an act of defiance ... Looks as if there's another in the making.
In Westminster listening to huge roars from pro-Corbyn rally - while lampooned by his own MPs not sure who in Labour could draw such crowds
They're saying 10,000 turned up with just 24 hours notice.
There really is a different mood in the country. Leave is said to be an act of defiance ... Looks as if there's another in the making.
Yes but that's less than voted for Labour at the GE.
In Westminster listening to huge roars from pro-Corbyn rally - while lampooned by his own MPs not sure who in Labour could draw such crowds
They're saying 10,000 turned up with just 24 hours notice.
There really is a different mood in the country. Leave is said to be an act of defiance ... Looks as if there's another in the making.
Syrizia......Podemos......Labour
I look forward to all three groups, as well as other socialist parties in the EU and beyond, achieving less inequality between people, prosperity more justly allocated and power shared by all equitably.
howsillyofme1 wrote:
Problem is I now speak French and that 'll' is always difficult for someone with a Wulfrunian accent - much easier when I could just say it in English
Are we allowed to speak furrin' languages in post-Brexit Britain?
I doubt it - furriners are getting attacked in the streets for not speaking English. English people speaking furrin will probably be taken straight to the Tower. And the price of Noilly Prat will go up exponentially.
''The Parliamentary Labour Party is now considering electing its own leader in a move which would essentially create a separate party. This nuclear option is being referred to by MPs as a “universal declaration of independence.”
They automatically lose the whip + constituencies will be have to choose new candidates, and all the labour apparatus, contacts money etc etc etc and they wont get a majority of MPs to join. This is political suicide option and hands the party to Corbyn. And the majority of them will lose their seats at the upcoming election.
Temulkar wrote:They have lost the plot completely.
''The Parliamentary Labour Party is now considering electing its own leader in a move which would essentially create a separate party. This nuclear option is being referred to by MPs as a “universal declaration of independence.”
They automatically lose the whip + constituencies will be have to choose new candidates, and all the labour apparatus, contacts money etc etc etc and they wont get a majority of MPs to join. This is political suicide option and hands the party to Corbyn. And the majority of them will lose their seats at the upcoming election.
If its true they are insane.
They could call it the Social Democratic Party.
It really is desperation on a lemming-like scale. It would solve a problem very neatly. Cause huge disruption and chaos but get rid of all the troublemakers in one fell swoop. Perfect
I suppose if they go for a split - which looks likely because not a one seems to dare stand against him - they would lose so badly as a blairite labour in an election, it is frightening they could be so disconnected with the electorate they would think its an option.
"I was as elected as the Labour Party's leader to redistribute wealth and power"
- Corbyn
I don't have a lot, me. I'm not terrified of redistribution. Power? All I want is enough. I doubt I'm unusual.
Corbyn may have been elected to redistribute wealth and power but he wasn't elected to tell Cameron to hurry up and take us out of the EU. Labour is a pro-remain party and should be behaving like one. Indeed many of its MPs are acting like pro-remain MPs unlike Corbyn and his Eurosceptic friend Dennis Skinner. Corbyn is entitled to his views, but is he entitled to unilaterally change the party's stance on Europe? Whatever, I can't support a Eurosceptic who is determined to respect the views of Tories and Ukippers over the views of the majority of his party's voters. I don't care if he has a Lexit vision, he will be enabling the far right and racists. There is a point that idealism becomes destructive and Corbyn seems to have reached it. Even the Tories are hanging back from the abyss and they actually have a majority of voters to answer to if they don't. How is Corbyn honourable in calling as soon as possible for an act of monumental catastrophe that the people he is supposed to represent didn't even want?
You talk of power JA. I seriously think power has gone to Jeremy Corbyn's head. He is being idolized by his supporters and has got his hands on the machinery of the party. He has complete power and, as far as I'm concerned he's mis-using it.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
Temulkar wrote:They have lost the plot completely.
''The Parliamentary Labour Party is now considering electing its own leader in a move which would essentially create a separate party. This nuclear option is being referred to by MPs as a “universal declaration of independence.”
They automatically lose the whip + constituencies will be have to choose new candidates, and all the labour apparatus, contacts money etc etc etc and they wont get a majority of MPs to join. This is political suicide option and hands the party to Corbyn. And the majority of them will lose their seats at the upcoming election.
If its true they are insane.
Someone needs to get hold of them and knock some heads together....for all his faults this is what Prescott used to do so well during the Blair/Brown years
There needs to be some sort of peace made and some apologising from both sides
Rebels need to wnd their necks in though - they will end up the losers in this
"I was as elected as the Labour Party's leader to redistribute wealth and power"
- Corbyn
I don't have a lot, me. I'm not terrified of redistribution. Power? All I want is enough. I doubt I'm unusual.
Corbyn may have been elected to redistribute wealth and power but he wasn't elected to tell Cameron to hurry up and take us out of the EU. Labour is a pro-remain party and should be behaving like one. Indeed many of its MPs are acting like pro-remain MPs unlike Corbyn and his Eurosceptic friend Dennis Skinner. Corbyn is entitled to his views, but is he entitled to unilaterally change the party's stance on Europe? Whatever, I can't support a Eurosceptic who is determined to respect the views of Tories and Ukippers over the views of the majority of his party's voters. I don't care if he has a Lexit vision, he will be enabling the far right and racists. There is a point that idealism becomes destructive and Corbyn seems to have reached it. Even the Tories are hanging back from the abyss and they actually have a majority of voters to answer to if they don't. How is Corbyn honourable in calling as soon as possible for an act of monumental catastrophe that the people he is supposed to represent didn't even want?
You talk of power JA. I seriously think power has gone to Jeremy Corbyn's head. He is being idolized by his supporters and has got his hands on the machinery of the party. He has complete power and, as far as I'm concerned he's mis-using it.
I'm grateful you've mentioned this. I'm as concerned as you are about the same thing.
"I was as elected as the Labour Party's leader to redistribute wealth and power"
- Corbyn
I don't have a lot, me. I'm not terrified of redistribution. Power? All I want is enough. I doubt I'm unusual.
Corbyn may have been elected to redistribute wealth and power but he wasn't elected to tell Cameron to hurry up and take us out of the EU. Labour is a pro-remain party and should be behaving like one. Indeed many of its MPs are acting like pro-remain MPs unlike Corbyn and his Eurosceptic friend Dennis Skinner. Corbyn is entitled to his views, but is he entitled to unilaterally change the party's stance on Europe? Whatever, I can't support a Eurosceptic who is determined to respect the views of Tories and Ukippers over the views of the majority of his party's voters. I don't care if he has a Lexit vision, he will be enabling the far right and racists. There is a point that idealism becomes destructive and Corbyn seems to have reached it. Even the Tories are hanging back from the abyss and they actually have a majority of voters to answer to if they don't. How is Corbyn honourable in calling as soon as possible for an act of monumental catastrophe that the people he is supposed to represent didn't even want?
You talk of power JA. I seriously think power has gone to Jeremy Corbyn's head. He is being idolized by his supporters and has got his hands on the machinery of the party. He has complete power and, as far as I'm concerned he's mis-using it.
I saw one of the so-called remainers banging on about immigration. Not sure what that means for remain
There has to be a reality check as well - we are out, we voted out - what the party should be doing is to make its voice heard in the creation of the Future Britain - not fighting amongst itself
Do you think there is still a chance of over-turning the refrendum...going against a popular vote? Do you think we should stand on a remain ticket at the next election?
I am not sure that being a 'Remain' party means anything now
"I was as elected as the Labour Party's leader to redistribute wealth and power"
- Corbyn
I don't have a lot, me. I'm not terrified of redistribution. Power? All I want is enough. I doubt I'm unusual.
Corbyn may have been elected to redistribute wealth and power but he wasn't elected to tell Cameron to hurry up and take us out of the EU. Labour is a pro-remain party and should be behaving like one. Indeed many of its MPs are acting like pro-remain MPs unlike Corbyn and his Eurosceptic friend Dennis Skinner. Corbyn is entitled to his views, but is he entitled to unilaterally change the party's stance on Europe? Whatever, I can't support a Eurosceptic who is determined to respect the views of Tories and Ukippers over the views of the majority of his party's voters. I don't care if he has a Lexit vision, he will be enabling the far right and racists. There is a point that idealism becomes destructive and Corbyn seems to have reached it. Even the Tories are hanging back from the abyss and they actually have a majority of voters to answer to if they don't. How is Corbyn honourable in calling as soon as possible for an act of monumental catastrophe that the people he is supposed to represent didn't even want?
You talk of power JA. I seriously think power has gone to Jeremy Corbyn's head. He is being idolized by his supporters and has got his hands on the machinery of the party. He has complete power and, as far as I'm concerned he's mis-using it.
I repeat, are you aware that any attempt to deny Leave short of a General Election WON by a party on a specifically Remain platform will almost certainly lead to armed riot? I don't like it any more than you do, but I a) cannot square rejecting the result with my belief in democracy and b) am well aware that a large portion of this result came from people angry that they were being ignored. Hiw the hell can anyone finesse this without reinforcing that belief terminally.
And do we dare create a precedent that would be used against us without a qualm?
In Westminster listening to huge roars from pro-Corbyn rally - while lampooned by his own MPs not sure who in Labour could draw such crowds
They're saying 10,000 turned up with just 24 hours notice.
There really is a different mood in the country. Leave is said to be an act of defiance ... Looks as if there's another in the making.
Yes but that's less than voted for Labour at the GE.
And Laura K tweeted they weren't all Labour members.
Quite a few pointed out you don't have to be a member to vote in the GE. Or to support Corbyn.
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
citizenJA wrote:It's insane for the UK to leave the EU - I'm frightened by any leader wanting to do it now.
of course it is....but Cameron decided to give a referendum and he lost it due to significant majority of Tories voting against
The Great British Public voted for it....not sure what we can do now.....as far as I can tell most of the Leavers are not inclined to change their minds
citizenJA wrote:It's insane for the UK to leave the EU - I'm frightened by any leader wanting to do it now.
Yes, it's insane.
And any attempt to ignore last week's vote takes this country down the road to Dictatorship.
I was born and raised and I have lived sixty years with certain values and I would be a traitor to everything I have ever believed in to urge setting this decision aside because the wrong side won.
citizenJA wrote:It's insane for the UK to leave the EU - I'm frightened by any leader wanting to do it now.
Yes, it's insane.
And any attempt to ignore last week's vote takes this country down the road to Dictatorship.
I was born and raised and I have lived sixty years with certain values and I would be a traitor to everything I have ever believed in to urge setting this decision aside because the wrong side won.
Tory government don't share your allegiance or your values. It was their irresponsible EU referendum. What makes it more important than promises made about the NHS, social care, housing or social security provision?
And any attempt to ignore last week's vote takes this country down the road to Dictatorship.
I was born and raised and I have lived sixty years with certain values and I would be a traitor to everything I have ever believed in to urge setting this decision aside because the wrong side won.
Tory government don't share your allegiance or your values. It was their irresponsible EU referendum. What makes it more important than promises made about the NHS, social care, housing or social security provision?
A popular vote.
A non-binding popular vote. Get Parliament to vote it into law.
citizenJA wrote:It's insane for the UK to leave the EU - I'm frightened by any leader wanting to do it now.
Yes, it's insane.
And any attempt to ignore last week's vote takes this country down the road to Dictatorship.
I was born and raised and I have lived sixty years with certain values and I would be a traitor to everything I have ever believed in to urge setting this decision aside because the wrong side won.
I have to agree. I don't see that the result could now be ignored. I really don't. I want with all my heart for this not to be happening, but we don't get to overturn general elections because the result would be disastrous, and they don't even involve a proper majority of voters having decided the result.
It would be legitimate for a party to stand on the basis that it would reverse the decision. If it won, it would have a mandate. If Cameron had been clear that he regarded the referendum as advisory and would pass the final decision to his successor, then maybe. But the government has indicated that it will happen, so however disastrous, it now has to.
The only possible other exception was if the country became too unstable to risk it, but then we're back into dictatorship territory.
Temulkar wrote:They have lost the plot completely.
''The Parliamentary Labour Party is now considering electing its own leader in a move which would essentially create a separate party. This nuclear option is being referred to by MPs as a “universal declaration of independence.”
They automatically lose the whip + constituencies will be have to choose new candidates, and all the labour apparatus, contacts money etc etc etc and they wont get a majority of MPs to join. This is political suicide option and hands the party to Corbyn. And the majority of them will lose their seats at the upcoming election.
If its true they are insane.
They could call it the Social Democratic Party.
It really is desperation on a lemming-like scale. It would solve a problem very neatly. Cause huge disruption and chaos but get rid of all the troublemakers in one fell swoop. Perfect
I thought earlier that they'd painted themselves into a corner. We've been paying a bunch of brainless idiots to look out for us.
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
I think in a couple of months the economic impact will be starting to bite. At that point there may be a massive call either to overturn the result or hold another referendum. Thats about the only hope we have.
In the meantime no politcian - except farron - can say they are going to ignore the result.
I think its true there is going to be riots, and violence on our streets, and thats really scary.
I don't know how many times I have to say this, but it was the Tories who wanted this referendum, Tories who campaigned for out, Tories who voted as a majority for out and Tories with a majority government and therefore are the only people who can take us out.
All I'm asking of Corbyn is to not egg them on.. Given the party and Labour voters mostly support remain, I didn't think it was a lot to ask, but apparently it is.
Yes, "leavers" are going to be angry if a Tory government that offered a referendum, and in part supported leave, refuses to act on that referendum, but Labour can't make them invoke article 50 from opposition so I'd just like Corbyn to shut up and let the Tories lie for a bit in their own goddam mess for once.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
And any attempt to ignore last week's vote takes this country down the road to Dictatorship.
I was born and raised and I have lived sixty years with certain values and I would be a traitor to everything I have ever believed in to urge setting this decision aside because the wrong side won.
I have to agree. I don't see that the result could now be ignored. I really don't. I want with all my heart for this not to be happening, but we don't get to overturn general elections because the result would be disastrous, and they don't even involve a proper majority of voters having decided the result.
It would be legitimate for a party to stand on the basis that it would reverse the decision. If it won, it would have a mandate. If Cameron had been clear that he regarded the referendum as advisory and would pass the final decision to his successor, then maybe. But the government has indicated that it will happen, so however disastrous, it now has to.
The only possible other exception was if the country became too unstable to risk it, but then we're back into dictatorship territory.
The EU referendum wasn't a general election.
But it was sold as and believed to be creating a democratic mandate. Insanity it may be but the alternative is a direct denial of that.
Temulkar wrote:They have lost the plot completely.
''The Parliamentary Labour Party is now considering electing its own leader in a move which would essentially create a separate party. This nuclear option is being referred to by MPs as a “universal declaration of independence.”
They automatically lose the whip + constituencies will be have to choose new candidates, and all the labour apparatus, contacts money etc etc etc and they wont get a majority of MPs to join. This is political suicide option and hands the party to Corbyn. And the majority of them will lose their seats at the upcoming election.
If its true they are insane.
Someone needs to get hold of them and knock some heads together....for all his faults this is what Prescott used to do so well during the Blair/Brown years
There needs to be some sort of peace made and some apologising from both sides
Rebels need to wnd their necks in though - they will end up the losers in this
I don't think they can wind back. They risked pretty much everything and it hasn't come off. How could supposedly intelligent, savvy people allow themselves to be drawn in so deeply? Some of the new intake too. Where was their common sense?
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
Temulkar wrote:I think in a couple of months the economic impact will be starting to bite. At that point there may be a massive call either to overturn the result or hold another referendum. Thats about the only hope we have.
In the meantime no politcian - except farron - can say they are going to ignore the result.
I think its true there is going to be riots, and violence on our streets, and thats really scary.
Apparently Corbyn should have........
The first point may come to pass but I don't see how it could ever lead to over turning the result
The only (and very much a longshot) would be to hold off on A50, the situation becomes dire....the pro-remain parties and the pro-remain Tories stand on that ticket and win a mandate
The big issue with that is that the Leavers all blame the markets and the remain camp for any economic problems...I have already heard them saying it.....it is never their fault!
Jeremy Corbyn's\Labour's task is to push to ensure that "Out" (for that is what we've got) does the least possible harm. His job is not to hasten or otherwise facilitate "Out".
Edited to add
Quite when he'll get round to it is anybody's guess. The subject didn't get a mention in his rally speech today. You'd have thought it would have merited a passing mention.
Last edited by PorFavor on Mon 27 Jun, 2016 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Temulkar wrote:I think in a couple of months the economic impact will be starting to bite. At that point there may be a massive call either to overturn the result or hold another referendum. Thats about the only hope we have.
In the meantime no politcian - except farron - can say they are going to ignore the result.
I think its true there is going to be riots, and violence on our streets, and thats really scary.
Apparently Corbyn should have........
The first point may come to pass but I don't see how it could ever lead to over turning the result
The only (and very much a longshot) would be to hold off on A50, the situation becomes dire....the pro-remain parties and the pro-remain Tories stand on that ticket and win a mandate
The big issue with that is that the Leavers all blame the markets and the remain camp for any economic problems...I have already heard them saying it.....it is never their fault!
Just heard someone on ITV News saying the accusations against Leave voters were disgusting and the negative talk would cause a recession.
citizenJA wrote:It's insane for the UK to leave the EU - I'm frightened by any leader wanting to do it now.
Yes, it's insane.
And any attempt to ignore last week's vote takes this country down the road to Dictatorship.
I was born and raised and I have lived sixty years with certain values and I would be a traitor to everything I have ever believed in to urge setting this decision aside because the wrong side won.
Tory government don't share your allegiance or your values. It was their irresponsible EU referendum. What makes it more important than promises made about the NHS, social care, housing or social security provision?
Then do I abandon the beliefs of a lifetime because others are worse scum than me? Do I become as big a bastard as them, as untrustworthy and hypocrital? And the point is that on this occasion it is not the voice of the Government that has spoken: it is the people. The everyday people, the you and Is. Am I suddenly supposed to proclaim myself superior to them en masse, deny that they have a vote? What would you have me become? Everything I've hated since I first became conscious of inequality and injustice? How much like them do you want me to be?
This is not aimed at you, dear Citizen. But I have to stand for what I have stood for all my life. And I cannot throw away every instinct I've ever had without confessing that I have been a meaningless joke all my days.
The point about Corbyn not doing enough for remain is plain as day when looked at through the prism of today's rally in London - he can raise the crowd when he wants, he can rally the people, but did not do it for remain, as this tweet says :
Pierre Le Polar Bear @PierrePolarBear 13m13 minutes ago
Actually flabbergasted by the energy Corbyn & his acolytes are putting into #KeepCorbyn compared to #VoteRemain. & I NEVER say flabbergasted
Don't like what's happening to Labour, today's rally seemed like we are setting off on the wrong path. If Corbyn wins again I'll be leaving Labour and will not vote for them in a GE
My thoughts on the referendum (for what they are worth) are "what happens next" is down to who leads the tories, if Teresa May is leading I can see her rejecting it on the grounds that even the suggestion of leaving has brought our country to it's knees (another 2 months of markets crashing, withdrawal of investment & racial hatred on our streets and we will be down and out).
I don't see anyone left or right, other than her, who would have the strength or desire or interest in the good of the country to stop this nightmare now.
I don't like Teresa May but do think she has the courage to carry it off.
Edit to add : I wrote above before I saw this " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by AngryAsWell on Mon 27 Jun, 2016 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
PorFavor wrote:Jeremy Corbyn's\Labour's task is to push to ensure that "Out" (for that is what we've got) does the least possible harm. His job is not to hasten or otherwise facilitate "Out".
and how does he ensure that?
It could be that in the long-term A50 should be triggered in order to get the best deal possible.....perhaps if we delay then we will get a much worse deal
The Europeans are not in the mood to tolerate our silly games
This cannot just be seen from our side as there will be two in this negotiation - one more powerful than the other
And any attempt to ignore last week's vote takes this country down the road to Dictatorship.
I was born and raised and I have lived sixty years with certain values and I would be a traitor to everything I have ever believed in to urge setting this decision aside because the wrong side won.
Tory government don't share your allegiance or your values. It was their irresponsible EU referendum. What makes it more important than promises made about the NHS, social care, housing or social security provision?
Then do I abandon the beliefs of a lifetime because others are worse scum than me? Do I become as big a bastard as them, as untrustworthy and hypocrital? And the point is that on this occasion it is not the voice of the Government that has spoken: it is the people. The everyday people, the you and Is. Am I suddenly supposed to proclaim myself superior to them en masse, deny that they have a vote? What would you have me become? Everything I've hated since I first became conscious of inequality and injustice? How much like them do you want me to be?
This is not aimed at you, dear Citizen. But I have to stand for what I have stood for all my life. And I cannot throw away every instinct I've ever had without confessing that I have been a meaningless joke all my days.
I've spent my whole life opposing the majority of people by not supporting bringing back capital punishment. It took a long time but the majority is now on my side. I don't feel the least bit wrong by resisting the majority and opposing their wishes.
Populism isn't democratic, moral or right. It's dangerous.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
PorFavor wrote:Jeremy Corbyn's\Labour's task is to push to ensure that "Out" (for that is what we've got) does the least possible harm. His job is not to hasten or otherwise facilitate "Out".
Edited to add
Quite when he'll get round to it is anybody's guess. The subject didn't get a mention in his rally speech today. You'd have thought it would have merited a passing mention.
I agree but the first step is to acknowledge the result, which he has done. He appears to be under attack for saying this. He is then attacked for saying we (Labour party members) should come together to ensure the social rights and economic priorities of members and workers are central to any negotiations moving forward. If equality isn't at the centre of any negotiations then he should be under fire. I don't think he is failing as leader of the Labour party for dealing with reality.
And any attempt to ignore last week's vote takes this country down the road to Dictatorship.
I was born and raised and I have lived sixty years with certain values and I would be a traitor to everything I have ever believed in to urge setting this decision aside because the wrong side won.
Tory government don't share your allegiance or your values. It was their irresponsible EU referendum. What makes it more important than promises made about the NHS, social care, housing or social security provision?
Then do I abandon the beliefs of a lifetime because others are worse scum than me? Do I become as big a bastard as them, as untrustworthy and hypocrital? And the point is that on this occasion it is not the voice of the Government that has spoken: it is the people. The everyday people, the you and Is. Am I suddenly supposed to proclaim myself superior to them en masse, deny that they have a vote? What would you have me become? Everything I've hated since I first became conscious of inequality and injustice? How much like them do you want me to be?
This is not aimed at you, dear Citizen. But I have to stand for what I have stood for all my life. And I cannot throw away every instinct I've ever had without confessing that I have been a meaningless joke all my days.
I appreciate your post and thank you for your kind response. It's not your honour or values on the line. Neither Tory government or anyone else can foist responsibility onto the people out of the result of the EU referendum. That power resides by law, in Parliament. Nothing Tory government or anyone else can say or do alters this fact. Parliament is sovereign. It is UK government's responsibility. That Tory government have already lied and failed to do what they said they'd do upon hearing the results of the UK referendum is UK government's failure and that is where betrayal starts and ends.
PorFavor wrote:Jeremy Corbyn's\Labour's task is to push to ensure that "Out" (for that is what we've got) does the least possible harm. His job is not to hasten or otherwise facilitate "Out".
and how does he ensure that?
It could be that in the long-term A50 should be triggered in order to get the best deal possible.....perhaps if we delay then we will get a much worse deal
The Europeans are not in the mood to tolerate our silly games
This cannot just be seen from our side as there will be two in this negotiation - one more powerful than the other
Badly worded, perhaps. I should have said "try to ensure". Other than that my point stands.
First of all I've been Labour all my life but only joined and made donations because of Ed and a desperate yearning to defeat an appalling Tory coalition. I then voted for Corbyn and Eagle. I cannot abide lies, deceit, spin, arrogance and many other of the Tory characteristics that you highlight so well on FTN. To see these now displayed by treacherous labour MPs is soul destroying. How can they so obviously engineer a coup and then deny it was organised - then of course they want us to trust and vote for them because they have the party at heart. Despicable. We need to move away from personality politics. Who really wants to have presidential elections that rely heavily on money for success? The letters and statements of those that resigned were in my view prescriptive full of soundbytes and hearsay with little substantiated evidence presented at all. Pathetic and so amateurish from career politicians. I think that what we need are policies formed by the executive and PLP and honed by the conference and members, meaty stuff to coalesce around that we can present to the electorate and convince them a vote for labour is an honest vote for what we believe in. We don't need woolly statements about we are better than them, aren't they disgusting let's pull together... Our democracy is so much more mature than that and I'm really afraid that we're losing it. Sorry for a bit of a rant and I haven't even mentioned the referendum the result of which I find bitterly disappointing. Turbulent times ahead but maybe an opportunity to shape and reclaim decent politics if Jeremy Corbyn can prevail. I'm probably naively optimistic of course!
I don't like personalised attacks but in the spirit of earlier posts and as I'm a northerner I do think that Cameron is 'n oily prat!
Finally, thank you all for so much thought provoking material over the last few days. There is no other place on earth where these different views are debated so well and in such good humour.
