Monday 27th June 2016

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 11:00 pm

I am hearing members of the PLP keep going on and on about immigration

That is incredibly incoherent and is reminiscent of the Brexit message

No wonder that Labour voters voted Leave if this was what their MPs were telling them....it is the fault of immigration and we can't do anything about it in the EU

The difference is that Corbyn argued immigration was not the issue and it was austerity that was causing it

If what I am hearing was the message getting to the voters then it is not Corbyn's fault.....

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 11:07 pm

I despair of some people understanding where I stand, without my writing a post of such length that it could only be contained on my blog - which is not a place for such things anyway - so I'm quitting for tonight. And judging my some of the responses, even if I spelt things out in infinite detail, there are those here who simply can't hear me.

I don't blame you, but I cannot read your replies without seeing the beginnings of a very long road with things that it is in my core to resist at the other end of it.

I'll see where the debate has got to tomorrow.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 11:08 pm

Jeremy Corbyn is plenty charismatic. Ed Miliband is strong, not 'weak', like Dave Cameron called him.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 11:11 pm

mbc1955 wrote:I despair of some people understanding where I stand, without my writing a post of such length that it could only be contained on my blog - which is not a place for such things anyway - so I'm quitting for tonight. And judging my some of the responses, even if I spelt things out in infinite detail, there are those here who simply can't hear me.

I don't blame you, but I cannot read your replies without seeing the beginnings of a very long road with things that it is in my core to resist at the other end of it.

I'll see where the debate has got to tomorrow.

I apologise if anything I wrote was offensive to you, it wasn't my intention. Please have a good night.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 11:11 pm

Just for interest -

Hashtags such as #Bregret #Bregretters and #Bregreter have sprung up on social media, while a poll by Survation for the Mail on Sunday found 7.1% of leave voters expressed regret over their decision, compared with 4.4% of remain voters (Politics Live (or whatever they're calling it these days), Guardian)

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 11:13 pm

I hear you mbc1955

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 11:22 pm

Not saying nuttin but...
LBC ‏@LBC 42s42 seconds ago
In tomorrows Telegraph, health secretary Jeremy Hunt calls for second referendum on terms of EU exit

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 11:26 pm

It's no ones' fault Tory government failed to do what they've said they'd do. Perhaps that's why Corbyn shoved Cameron up against the wall about the Leave vote. Do what you said you'd do. Go on. It's yours. Deal with it. Do it. It's impossible for current government to do. Corbyn's willing to take the risk of shoving Tory government. Very bold, perhaps it's a genius move. I can understand other MPs freaking out over Corbyn's decision to do so.

Go easy on each other, please, thank you for your continued patience with me. I'm just a citizen writing thoughts.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 11:28 pm

It would seem that no one in Tory government is willing to use the results of the EU referendum to do what they'd said it would do. The fault begins and ends with Tory government.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 11:29 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:The point about Corbyn not doing enough for remain is plain as day when looked at through the prism of today's rally in London - he can raise the crowd when he wants, he can rally the people, but did not do it for remain, as this tweet says :

Pierre Le Polar Bear ‏@PierrePolarBear 13m13 minutes ago
Actually flabbergasted by the energy Corbyn & his acolytes are putting into #KeepCorbyn compared to #VoteRemain. & I NEVER say flabbergasted

Don't like what's happening to Labour, today's rally seemed like we are setting off on the wrong path. If Corbyn wins again I'll be leaving Labour and will not vote for them in a GE

My thoughts on the referendum (for what they are worth) are "what happens next" is down to who leads the tories, if Teresa May is leading I can see her rejecting it on the grounds that even the suggestion of leaving has brought our country to it's knees (another 2 months of markets crashing, withdrawal of investment & racial hatred on our streets and we will be down and out).
I don't see anyone left or right, other than her, who would have the strength or desire or interest in the good of the country to stop this nightmare now.
I don't like Teresa May but do think she has the courage to carry it off.

Edit to add : I wrote above before I saw this " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Agree with some of what you've written, but we've been saying today, that many of the Labour MPs did a piss poor job of getting people on the Remain side...We know why now. Too busy laying the final plans for a coup.

It wasn't an election. It was a cross party effort. We were told it often enough, and saw Tories, Labour and UKP campaigning together. So why would they vote a certain way because their party wanted them to?
And a lot had never bothered with voting much before and weren't/aren't particularly political, or clued up on all the ins and outs of belonging to the EU. Some of it makes for very dry reading!

It's just beginning to dawn on those who voted Leave, that the Tories are going to cock that up too. It's going to get a lot more complicated and nasty.

The Leave vote was a protest. And the crowd in London earlier was as much a protest about the right's underhand tactics as it was about Corbyn.

Labour are only in opposition, they've been distracted by a stupid coup, and Tories don't listen to anyone else anyway.
They'll just ignore it for as long as they can and hope it'll all go away.

We had the first sign of it today. Boris didn't even bother to turn up.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 11:31 pm

fedup59 wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Jeremy Corbyn's\Labour's task is to push to ensure that "Out" (for that is what we've got) does the least possible harm. His job is not to hasten or otherwise facilitate "Out".

Edited to add

Quite when he'll get round to it is anybody's guess. The subject didn't get a mention in his rally speech today. You'd have thought it would have merited a passing mention.
I agree but the first step is to acknowledge the result, which he has done. He appears to be under attack for saying this. He is then attacked for saying we (Labour party members) should come together to ensure the social rights and economic priorities of members and workers are central to any negotiations moving forward. If equality isn't at the centre of any negotiations then he should be under fire. I don't think he is failing as leader of the Labour party for dealing with reality.

From the G live blog:

He says Cameron should begin negotiations when he goes to Brussels.

Corbyn urges Cameron to start exit negotiations now.

This is more than acknowledging the vote, he is pushing to make exit happen quickly. This should be coming from a party that represents a majority of leave voters, not from a party that represents a majority of remain voters. Only leave supporting Tories are pushing for article 50 to be invoked straight away and not even all of them. Only someone who really wants to leave would be in such a hurry, only someone who puts principle before the reality of economic consequences would be comfortable advising haste. Most of us will appreciate the time to prepare and batten down the hatches and they'll be thanking Cameron for that, not Corbyn and his possibly scrupulous but more likely Eurosceptic principles.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 11:36 pm

Deleted.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 11:36 pm

I promise to move on tomorrow. I've made myself clear and probably quite annoying, so I'll stick to new topics. We all know all of this is going to end badly, whatever any of us say.

Night all.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 11:38 pm

Willow904 wrote:
fedup59 wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Jeremy Corbyn's\Labour's task is to push to ensure that "Out" (for that is what we've got) does the least possible harm. His job is not to hasten or otherwise facilitate "Out".

Edited to add

Quite when he'll get round to it is anybody's guess. The subject didn't get a mention in his rally speech today. You'd have thought it would have merited a passing mention.
I agree but the first step is to acknowledge the result, which he has done. He appears to be under attack for saying this. He is then attacked for saying we (Labour party members) should come together to ensure the social rights and economic priorities of members and workers are central to any negotiations moving forward. If equality isn't at the centre of any negotiations then he should be under fire. I don't think he is failing as leader of the Labour party for dealing with reality.
From the G live blog:

He says Cameron should begin negotiations when he goes to Brussels.

Corbyn urges Cameron to start exit negotiations now.
This is more than acknowledging the vote, he is pushing to make exit happen quickly. This should be coming from a party that represents a majority of leave voters, not from a party that represents a majority of remain voters. Only leave supporting Tories are pushing for article 50 to be invoked straight away and not even all of them. Only someone who really wants to leave would be in such a hurry, only someone who puts principle before the reality of economic consequences would be comfortable advising haste. Most of us will appreciate the time to prepare and batten down the hatches and they'll be thanking Cameron for that, not Corbyn and his possibly scrupulous but more likely Eurosceptic principles.

Can I just ask: What would your reaction be if the vote had been the other way around, and Brexiters, many of whom voted Labour, were asking for the vote to be either ignored or overturned and Corbyn was pushing for it?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 11:39 pm

@Willow904

Night night.

And night night everyone else.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 11:41 pm

I am cancelling my non subscription to the disloyal treacherous Blairite Red Tory rag that is the Mirror.Then I am joining the SWP I will attend the next mass rally to defend the Leader of my ex Party and shout traitor to those that remain in his Party according to the binary positioning guilty until proven sufficiently innocent index.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 11:43 pm

Temulkar wrote:For the absolute immaturity and childish petulance of the mutineers, just look at Jess phillips response to John M on twitter

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Over excitable.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 11:46 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:Not saying nuttin but...
LBC ‏@LBC 42s42 seconds ago
In tomorrows Telegraph, health secretary Jeremy Hunt calls for second referendum on terms of EU exit

If he had half a brain, he'd be dangerous.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 11:48 pm

Willow904 wrote:
fedup59 wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Jeremy Corbyn's\Labour's task is to push to ensure that "Out" (for that is what we've got) does the least possible harm. His job is not to hasten or otherwise facilitate "Out".

Edited to add

Quite when he'll get round to it is anybody's guess. The subject didn't get a mention in his rally speech today. You'd have thought it would have merited a passing mention.
I agree but the first step is to acknowledge the result, which he has done. He appears to be under attack for saying this. He is then attacked for saying we (Labour party members) should come together to ensure the social rights and economic priorities of members and workers are central to any negotiations moving forward. If equality isn't at the centre of any negotiations then he should be under fire. I don't think he is failing as leader of the Labour party for dealing with reality.
From the G live blog:
He says Cameron should begin negotiations when he goes to Brussels.

Corbyn urges Cameron to start exit negotiations now.
This is more than acknowledging the vote, he is pushing to make exit happen quickly. This should be coming from a party that represents a majority of leave voters, not from a party that represents a majority of remain voters. Only leave supporting Tories are pushing for article 50 to be invoked straight away and not even all of them. Only someone who really wants to leave would be in such a hurry, only someone who puts principle before the reality of economic consequences would be comfortable advising haste. Most of us will appreciate the time to prepare and batten down the hatches and they'll be thanking Cameron for that, not Corbyn and his possibly scrupulous but more likely Eurosceptic principles.

Cameron couldn't manage to respond meaningfully to anything Corbyn said to him today. I read what Cameron said in response to
Corbyn. It was as though he wasn't expecting those questions and his response notes were inadequate as a consequence. Tory
government response today taught me they're terrified of the EU referendum results and what it means. May Corbyn be taking
this opportunity to turn Tory government out of government now? I get the impression no Tory, not even the ones wanting out
of the EU, is willing to be the government who flips the article 50 switch, tables the referendum result in the House, signing
names on that 'UK out of EU' document and mailing it off as notification to Brussels. Is Corbyn playing chicken? Corbyn
isn't government. The Tories are. And it's only government that can take the UK out of the EU.

Again, these are my thoughts, nothing more. Thank you for your patience.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 11:50 pm

Good part by Zoe Williams on Newsnight

She said that Labour wanted a charismatic left-wing leader and that there are not many about (she mentioned Nandy and Starmer by the way). Corbyn is not the answer which I tend to agree with - but there need to be a decent replacement.

Newton-Twat started talking about 'moderates' like Jarvis and Chuka - she shouted him down and said these are not 'moderates'; they are on the right (Chuka) or on the 'nothing' wing (Jarvis). She also laughed at the idea of Eagle

Think she is the first commentator that hasn't fallen into simplistic assessment of the situation

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 11:52 pm

Willow904 wrote:I promise to move on tomorrow. I've made myself clear and probably quite annoying, so I'll stick to new topics. We all know all of this is going to end badly, whatever any of us say.

Night all.

Goodnight, Willow!

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 11:53 pm

Willow904 wrote:I promise to move on tomorrow. I've made myself clear and probably quite annoying, so I'll stick to new topics. We all know all of this is going to end badly, whatever any of us say.

Night all.

Not annoying at all - just don't agree with everything you have said

We shouldn't be scared of disagreeing

I am just sad that this has become about Labour which is important in our particular bubble.......but at the moment is fairly irrelevant seeing what is happening around us!

Speak tomorrow....

GetYou · Post by **GetYou** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 11:53 pm

Willow904 wrote:I promise to move on tomorrow. I've made myself clear and probably quite annoying, so I'll stick to new topics. We all know all of this is going to end badly, whatever any of us say.

Night all.

Never apologise for stating your opinion Willow. This site is all the better for it.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 11:53 pm

PorFavor wrote:@Willow904

Night night.

And night night everyone else.

Goodnight, PorFavor!

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 11:55 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
fedup59 wrote: I agree but the first step is to acknowledge the result, which he has done. He appears to be under attack for saying this. He is then attacked for saying we (Labour party members) should come together to ensure the social rights and economic priorities of members and workers are central to any negotiations moving forward. If equality isn't at the centre of any negotiations then he should be under fire. I don't think he is failing as leader of the Labour party for dealing with reality.
From the G live blog:

He says Cameron should begin negotiations when he goes to Brussels.

Corbyn urges Cameron to start exit negotiations now.
This is more than acknowledging the vote, he is pushing to make exit happen quickly. This should be coming from a party that represents a majority of leave voters, not from a party that represents a majority of remain voters. Only leave supporting Tories are pushing for article 50 to be invoked straight away and not even all of them. Only someone who really wants to leave would be in such a hurry, only someone who puts principle before the reality of economic consequences would be comfortable advising haste. Most of us will appreciate the time to prepare and batten down the hatches and they'll be thanking Cameron for that, not Corbyn and his possibly scrupulous but more likely Eurosceptic principles.
Can I just ask: What would your reaction be if the vote had been the other way around, and Brexiters, many of whom voted Labour, were asking for the vote to be either ignored or overturned and Corbyn was pushing for it?

I'd say that you can't overturn doing nothing and a Eurosceptic party ( of which I wouldn't be a member) has a right to ask for a new vote to change the status quo. I'd say he was representing his voters.

I'd also say that democracy is broken. That this is happening everywhere. When a small majority vote for something which is anathema to the other near 50% of the population it is more akin to tyranny by the many over the few than democracy. That the fact that leavers used to be the unhappy ones doesn't stop me being unhappy now (and terrified of the economic consequences). I can't accept this anymore than they could accept being in the EU.

I know I can't do anything about it but I'm devastated and I can find no common ground with anyone who isnt, at least for a little bit. As I said before, I know that Ed would have been devastated by this too, so I could trust his judgement on what comes next, but I can't trust anyone who welcomes it and wants to get on with it.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 11:55 pm

HindleA wrote:I am cancelling my non subscription to the disloyal treacherous Blairite Red Tory rag that is the Mirror.Then I am joining the SWP I will attend the next mass rally to defend the Leader of my ex Party and shout traitor to those that remain in his Party according to the binary positioning guilty until proven sufficiently innocent index.

Will there be biscuits and beverages afterwards?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 11:56 pm

I'm in for biscuits and beverages.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 11:56 pm

fedup59 wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Jeremy Corbyn's\Labour's task is to push to ensure that "Out" (for that is what we've got) does the least possible harm. His job is not to hasten or otherwise facilitate "Out".

Edited to add

Quite when he'll get round to it is anybody's guess. The subject didn't get a mention in his rally speech today. You'd have thought it would have merited a passing mention.
I agree but the first step is to acknowledge the result, which he has done. He appears to be under attack for saying this. He is then attacked for saying we (Labour party members) should come together to ensure the social rights and economic priorities of members and workers are central to any negotiations moving forward. If equality isn't at the centre of any negotiations then he should be under fire. I don't think he is failing as leader of the Labour party for dealing with reality.

Corbyn knows what Cameron and his mates are like. They say and promise stuff, but then don't ... How can they help constituents who come to them with a problem that is being caused by the Leave vote - and there are going to be more and more.
We can't function for too long in limbo and at some point it's going to start hitting the already poor and struggling. The rich can ride it out. We can't.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 11:59 pm

Night PF. Night all....

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 11:59 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Night PF. Night all....

Goodnight, Ohso!

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 12:00 am

goodnight, everyone.
love,
cJA

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 12:13 am

Willow904 wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
Willow904 wrote: From the G live blog:
This is more than acknowledging the vote, he is pushing to make exit happen quickly. This should be coming from a party that represents a majority of leave voters, not from a party that represents a majority of remain voters. Only leave supporting Tories are pushing for article 50 to be invoked straight away and not even all of them. Only someone who really wants to leave would be in such a hurry, only someone who puts principle before the reality of economic consequences would be comfortable advising haste. Most of us will appreciate the time to prepare and batten down the hatches and they'll be thanking Cameron for that, not Corbyn and his possibly scrupulous but more likely Eurosceptic principles.
Can I just ask: What would your reaction be if the vote had been the other way around, and Brexiters, many of whom voted Labour, were asking for the vote to be either ignored or overturned and Corbyn was pushing for it?
I'd say that you can't overturn doing nothing and a Eurosceptic party ( of which I wouldn't be a member) has a right to ask for a new vote to change the status quo. I'd say he was representing his voters.

I'd also say that democracy is broken. That this is happening everywhere. When a small majority vote for something which is anathema to the other near 50% of the population it is more akin to tyranny by the many over the few than democracy. That the fact that leavers used to be the unhappy ones doesn't stop me being unhappy now (and terrified of the economic consequences). I can't accept this anymore than they could accept being in the EU.

I know I can't do anything about it but I'm devastated and I can find no common ground with anyone who isnt, at least for a little bit. As I said before, I know that Ed would have been devastated by this too, so I could trust his judgement on what comes next, but I can't trust anyone who welcomes it and wants to get on with it.

You are right on the democracy point - bang on!

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 12:45 am

ohsocynical wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:Not saying nuttin but...
LBC ‏@LBC 42s42 seconds ago
In tomorrows Telegraph, health secretary Jeremy Hunt calls for second referendum on terms of EU exit
If he had half a brain, he'd be dangerous.

If he had another half a brain he'd be a half wit

TR'sGhost · Post by **TR'sGhost** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 1:11 am

mbc1955 wrote:I repeat, are you aware that any attempt to deny Leave short of a General Election WON by a party on a specifically Remain platform will almost certainly lead to armed riot? I don't like it any more than you do, but I a) cannot square rejecting the result with my belief in democracy and b) am well aware that a large portion of this result came from people angry that they were being ignored. Hiw the hell can anyone finesse this without reinforcing that belief terminally.

And do we dare create a precedent that would be used against us without a qualm?

I don't see any way at all out of this that doesn't increase violence, and whatever happens we're running a risk of massively increasing violence and even a serious threat to order.

The referendum has brought some unwelcome rodents out of the skirting board, social media's showing there were more of them than perhaps we thought and they think they've won. They're bad now, but if they think they're being fobbed off or "betrayed" by politicians, the "elite", "experts" and "traitors" then who knows where things might end up.

I might still be in shock or I might be crazy, but my concern is increasingly becoming how do we avoid sliding into the status of a barely governable failing state.

One thing I am sure about. If Parliament decides to vote to nullify the referendum, they'd better be ready to put the police and army on the streets, just in case. It might be a good idea to broadcast a royal message reminding the forces of the state who they swore their oaths of loyalty to beforehand.

And delaying or obfuscating about A50 can not go on too long. There's people who expected we would out of the EU by now, with refugee packed ships leaving for the continent, Asia, Africa and the Caribbean. This referendum has been the far-right's dream come true and they're unlikely not to exploit it as hard and far as they can.

For avoidence of doubt, I regard the UKIP leadership as far-right, including Carswell. Whether he's a fascist or a swivel-eyed libertarian dreamer who refuses to see where that ideology leads if implemented I don't know, and either way he's helping enable the rest of the bunch.

TR'sGhost · Post by **TR'sGhost** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 1:42 am

HindleA wrote:I am cancelling my non subscription to the disloyal treacherous Blairite Red Tory rag that is the Mirror.Then I am joining the SWP I will attend the next mass rally to defend the Leader of my ex Party and shout traitor to those that remain in his Party according to the binary positioning guilty until proven sufficiently innocent index.

By all means do all of that except please, please don't join the SWP.

They run around burning new, enthusiastic recruits out, set up their own "broad movement campaigns" in direct competition to the real thing and are a blight and a nuisance.

If they saw real socialism they'd campaign against it for reason between them not being in charge of it and the colour of the banknotes.

They've a long record of criticising national liberation movements as well. My favourite encounter with the SWP was years ago when a couple of them explained to me that they weren't very active on apartheid because the ANC is Stalinist and only a true Trotskyite party on SWP lines would ever bring revolution to South Africa, and until there was such a party the South Africans might as well live under apartheid because living in a majority rule capitalist or "Stalinist" South Africa would just be swopping one oppressor for a worse one.

With friends like the SWP..... Revolutionaries my ****.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 2:38 am

TR'S Ghost

Thanks for response.Bah,but I want to wave a placard with save Corbyn-Not our Leader on it,and shout traitor to those that show any indication of not wanting him to be leader In Not Our Party.

Maybe I could start a new Party then,Corbyn Resistance Against Pillocks select myself as leader and shout traitor to myself for not being sufficiently Socialist enough,maybe an Enterprise Allowance or Apprenticeship available.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 3:13 am

Just an observation,brought home by a first block on twitter,a worrying amount of people cannot distinguish between Corbyn the man and what he symbolises to them ie.he equals Socialism and everything is gauged through that prism,any concerns expressed are necessarilly a dilution.I have concerns about his leadership skills is greeted with "go to a non-Socialist Party,then" and a block.Of course this equally works the other way in the fervent Corbyn is the Anti-Christ determined to destroy the World and everybody in it I want my Party back contingent,I have had similar ridiculous assumptions,but not a block but I am working on it for the sake of balance.

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