And we take another little step closer to the abyss.Laura Kuenssberg Verified account
@bbclaurak
Boris Johnson and Michael Gove had breakfast with Lynton Crosby this morning - so stand by for operation Lynton leadership campaign
Sadly I can say speak for yourself, yahyah. You don't doubt it when you've seen it up close and personal including barriers in the workplace, albeit less so over the years. 'And as for landlords checking immigration status. Well let's just say I wasn't joking when I wrote to Number 10 no matter how facetious my tone.yahyah wrote:... I suspect there may be more racists than we ever imagined.
Willow904 wrote:No, democracy is this. If Labour doesn't offer me what I want and need from a political party, I will leave and join another party. This is true of all of us and we comment here, on a political forum, to express when we approve (I really liked Ed, though I always understood that he didn't really appeal to quite a lot of Labour voters) and we express when we disapprove. I'm just explaining why I can't, personally, support Jeremy Corbyn any longer. There are concrete logical reasons, but mostly there are lot of emotional, incoherent reasons. I have gone over these. I understand that there are a lot of people in the Labour party who are going to stand by Jeremy Corbyn to the bitter end and they are right to do so, if that's how they feel. I'm not trying to change any minds, I'm trying to give you an insight into how not everyone in Labour feels the same and why the intransigence on both sides will pull the party apart.Rebecca wrote:Willow904 wrote: Both David Lammy and Seema Malhotra have resisted "getting on with it and accepting the inevitable", so that's not true. Both have spoken to my feelings in a way Jeremy Corbyn can't, because he has wanted this for a long time. I think there may be a generation gap here. I've been in the EU my whole adult life. Jeremy Corbyn will never be able to connect to me over this issue. I'm frankly not too impressed with being told I have no choice but to have Corbyn because no one else will do anything different. Even politician's with very similar views will make lots of tiny choices that are different that can add up to quite different outcomes.
Of course you have a choice,and have had a choice.
September 2015,labour leadership election.You had a choice.If you didn't vote for Corbyn that's sad for you but you do know he won by a very large margin indeed.
Referendum,you had a choice how to vote.Very sadly for the country,there was a majority vote for leave.
The PLP are using a bucketful of foul means to get rid of Jeremy Corbyn,so sucks to anyone who had a choice and voted for him.
They should have another leadership election and win by fair means if they can,something you could also vote how you choose to.
Seems to me from your posts that you want more than a choice,you want YOUR choice.
That is not democracy.
And I don't think that any of us have a problem with that. I understand and respect everything you say. But, leaving aside the act that I'm not a member of any political party, I still cannot see it as anything but anti-democratic, in the larger sense, to ignore a clear majority verdict (within the parameters established by the Referendum) and insist on acting counter to it. Advocate change, yes, that's our inalienable right. But to decide: I don't like this decision so let's overrule it, that's the hurdle i can't cross.Willow904 wrote: No, democracy is this. If Labour doesn't offer me what I want and need from a political party, I will leave and join another party. This is true of all of us and we comment here, on a political forum, to express when we approve (I really liked Ed, though I always understood that he didn't really appeal to quite a lot of Labour voters) and we express when we disapprove. I'm just explaining why I can't, personally, support Jeremy Corbyn any longer. There are concrete logical reasons, but mostly there are lot of emotional, incoherent reasons. I have gone over these. I understand that there are a lot of people in the Labour party who are going to stand by Jeremy Corbyn to the bitter end and they are right to do so, if that's how they feel. I'm not trying to change any minds, I'm trying to give you an insight into how not everyone in Labour feels the same and why the intransigence on both sides will pull the party apart.
Well lets hope that someone of that ilk can be found and they can stand against him in a democratic election and if they win have a mandate to lead the party.Willow904 wrote:I disagree. I think Corbyn is already an impediment to changing tack and I think the longer he's in charge the harder it will be. Pointing out two other parties waiting to embrace disappointed "remainers" just further underlines how careful Labour has to be not to lose the 63% while chasing after the 27%. I'm not sure you're right that no one in Labour will offer what I want, but that doesn't make Corbyn any more appealing. Someone who doesn't do what I want but is at least competent might be acceptable. Someone who is working behind the scenes to sort things out, rather than indulging in adulation rallies would be a start.Temulkar wrote: I do honestly think that will change over the course of the next few months but not now, and I really don't think JC would be an impediment to changing tack when it became politically possible to do so.
It's not actually selective. The rally was very upbeat. As I said before, I'm bereft and worried. I need Gordon Brown or Ed Miliband being sombre, giving updates to the press about Labour's position, concerns about the stock market, worry about the lack of a proper government, not mardi gras. It just adds to the sense that Brexit is what he wanted all along and he's happy now. It will be a while before I'll be able to forgive people who are feeling happy right now. I'm sorry it doesn't make sense.Rebecca wrote:Willow904 wrote:No, democracy is this. If Labour doesn't offer me what I want and need from a political party, I will leave and join another party. This is true of all of us and we comment here, on a political forum, to express when we approve (I really liked Ed, though I always understood that he didn't really appeal to quite a lot of Labour voters) and we express when we disapprove. I'm just explaining why I can't, personally, support Jeremy Corbyn any longer. There are concrete logical reasons, but mostly there are lot of emotional, incoherent reasons. I have gone over these. I understand that there are a lot of people in the Labour party who are going to stand by Jeremy Corbyn to the bitter end and they are right to do so, if that's how they feel. I'm not trying to change any minds, I'm trying to give you an insight into how not everyone in Labour feels the same and why the intransigence on both sides will pull the party apart.Rebecca wrote:
Of course you have a choice,and have had a choice.
September 2015,labour leadership election.You had a choice.If you didn't vote for Corbyn that's sad for you but you do know he won by a very large margin indeed.
Referendum,you had a choice how to vote.Very sadly for the country,there was a majority vote for leave.
The PLP are using a bucketful of foul means to get rid of Jeremy Corbyn,so sucks to anyone who had a choice and voted for him.
They should have another leadership election and win by fair means if they can,something you could also vote how you choose to.
Seems to me from your posts that you want more than a choice,you want YOUR choice.
That is not democracy.
Well yes,I'm not arguing with that.
But,complaining that Corbyn attended the rally,as if that was all he has done since the referendum strikes me as somewhat dishonest.
I get that you don't like him,never have,but don't like the selectiveness of your complaints.
Which reminds me... Some weeks back someone greeted me in the street and I was a bit taken aback because I couldn't understand her. Then I realised she was speaking Portuguese. A couple of years ago she'd passed when I was chatting to the guy opposite who said she never says a word and he thought she was Portuguese. Some time later I had greeted her one morning in her mother tongue. It seems she does talk to people after all.AngryAsWell wrote:Someone has got to take responsibility for this and do something about it bloody sharpish
Jon SnowVerified account
@jonsnowC4
Young woman in the street stops me to tell me she's just been verbally abused for speaking Spanish on her phone
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Who the hell is that exactly, one has to wonder?Emma Kennedy Verified account
@EmmaKennedy
What is required, immediately, is for a proper, sober, sensible leader to denounce Farage UTTERLY.
This is from the blog that's been linked. https://katyboo1.wordpress.com/2016/06/27/happy-now/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;mbc1955 wrote:And I don't think that any of us have a problem with that. I understand and respect everything you say. But, leaving aside the act that I'm not a member of any political party, I still cannot see it as anything but anti-democratic, in the larger sense, to ignore a clear majority verdict (within the parameters established by the Referendum) and insist on acting counter to it. Advocate change, yes, that's our inalienable right. But to decide: I don't like this decision so let's overrule it, that's the hurdle i can't cross.Willow904 wrote: No, democracy is this. If Labour doesn't offer me what I want and need from a political party, I will leave and join another party. This is true of all of us and we comment here, on a political forum, to express when we approve (I really liked Ed, though I always understood that he didn't really appeal to quite a lot of Labour voters) and we express when we disapprove. I'm just explaining why I can't, personally, support Jeremy Corbyn any longer. There are concrete logical reasons, but mostly there are lot of emotional, incoherent reasons. I have gone over these. I understand that there are a lot of people in the Labour party who are going to stand by Jeremy Corbyn to the bitter end and they are right to do so, if that's how they feel. I'm not trying to change any minds, I'm trying to give you an insight into how not everyone in Labour feels the same and why the intransigence on both sides will pull the party apart.
Other views are available.Secondly, people telling me that this is democracy and I have to live with it. You know what? The referendum vote was simply one part of the democratic process, and as I keep mentioning to those who conveniently forget it, it was ‘Advisory,’ not legally binding. The vote itself is not ‘democracy’. Democracy doesn’t happen on one day for one vote and then go away again. Democracy is an ongoing process in which we are free to express ourselves however we see fit as long as we do not descend into hate speech (which I haven’t). Democracy is part of a process and is happening all the time. I have the democratic right to fight against decisions made on my behalf that I don’t like, and I don’t like this one, so I am fighting it every step of the way. Do not throw the word democracy in my face. It is not a trump card.
Yes it is going to pull the party apart, and thats disastrous, but Labour will likely survive.Willow904 wrote:No, democracy is this. If Labour doesn't offer me what I want and need from a political party, I will leave and join another party. This is true of all of us and we comment here, on a political forum, to express when we approve (I really liked Ed, though I always understood that he didn't really appeal to quite a lot of Labour voters) and we express when we disapprove. I'm just explaining why I can't, personally, support Jeremy Corbyn any longer. There are concrete logical reasons, but mostly there are lot of emotional, incoherent reasons. I have gone over these. I understand that there are a lot of people in the Labour party who are going to stand by Jeremy Corbyn to the bitter end and they are right to do so, if that's how they feel. I'm not trying to change any minds, I'm trying to give you an insight into how not everyone in Labour feels the same and why the intransigence on both sides will pull the party apart.Rebecca wrote:Willow904 wrote: Both David Lammy and Seema Malhotra have resisted "getting on with it and accepting the inevitable", so that's not true. Both have spoken to my feelings in a way Jeremy Corbyn can't, because he has wanted this for a long time. I think there may be a generation gap here. I've been in the EU my whole adult life. Jeremy Corbyn will never be able to connect to me over this issue. I'm frankly not too impressed with being told I have no choice but to have Corbyn because no one else will do anything different. Even politician's with very similar views will make lots of tiny choices that are different that can add up to quite different outcomes.
Of course you have a choice,and have had a choice.
September 2015,labour leadership election.You had a choice.If you didn't vote for Corbyn that's sad for you but you do know he won by a very large margin indeed.
Referendum,you had a choice how to vote.Very sadly for the country,there was a majority vote for leave.
The PLP are using a bucketful of foul means to get rid of Jeremy Corbyn,so sucks to anyone who had a choice and voted for him.
They should have another leadership election and win by fair means if they can,something you could also vote how you choose to.
Seems to me from your posts that you want more than a choice,you want YOUR choice.
That is not democracy.
Yes.Temulkar wrote: Regardless of pro or anti corbyn, this whole shabby coup attempt is a dereliction of duty to the nation, when we do face our greatest crisis since the war, and are more divided than in 350 years as a nation.
I know that. But they're not available to me. "But to decide: I don't like this decision so let's overrule it, that's the hurdle I can't cross."gilsey wrote:This is from the blog that's been linked. https://katyboo1.wordpress.com/2016/06/27/happy-now/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;mbc1955 wrote:And I don't think that any of us have a problem with that. I understand and respect everything you say. But, leaving aside the act that I'm not a member of any political party, I still cannot see it as anything but anti-democratic, in the larger sense, to ignore a clear majority verdict (within the parameters established by the Referendum) and insist on acting counter to it. Advocate change, yes, that's our inalienable right. But to decide: I don't like this decision so let's overrule it, that's the hurdle i can't cross.Willow904 wrote: No, democracy is this. If Labour doesn't offer me what I want and need from a political party, I will leave and join another party. This is true of all of us and we comment here, on a political forum, to express when we approve (I really liked Ed, though I always understood that he didn't really appeal to quite a lot of Labour voters) and we express when we disapprove. I'm just explaining why I can't, personally, support Jeremy Corbyn any longer. There are concrete logical reasons, but mostly there are lot of emotional, incoherent reasons. I have gone over these. I understand that there are a lot of people in the Labour party who are going to stand by Jeremy Corbyn to the bitter end and they are right to do so, if that's how they feel. I'm not trying to change any minds, I'm trying to give you an insight into how not everyone in Labour feels the same and why the intransigence on both sides will pull the party apart.Other views are available.Secondly, people telling me that this is democracy and I have to live with it. You know what? The referendum vote was simply one part of the democratic process, and as I keep mentioning to those who conveniently forget it, it was ‘Advisory,’ not legally binding. The vote itself is not ‘democracy’. Democracy doesn’t happen on one day for one vote and then go away again. Democracy is an ongoing process in which we are free to express ourselves however we see fit as long as we do not descend into hate speech (which I haven’t). Democracy is part of a process and is happening all the time. I have the democratic right to fight against decisions made on my behalf that I don’t like, and I don’t like this one, so I am fighting it every step of the way. Do not throw the word democracy in my face. It is not a trump card.
One small bit of good news, I suppose.According to the BBC, Dan Jarvis has ruled himself out. (Politics Live, Guardian)
https://twitter.com/search?q=%40EmmaKennedy%20&src=typd" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;NonOxCol wrote:
Who the hell is that exactly, one has to wonder?Emma Kennedy Verified account
@EmmaKennedy
What is required, immediately, is for a proper, sober, sensible leader to denounce Farage UTTERLY.
I am in complete agreement with you, at the moment. I do however think that things will change quickly, it is a very fluid situation and I am not ruling anything out in a few months time.mbc1955 wrote:I know that. But they're not available to me. "But to decide: I don't like this decision so let's overrule it, that's the hurdle I can't cross."gilsey wrote:This is from the blog that's been linked. https://katyboo1.wordpress.com/2016/06/27/happy-now/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;mbc1955 wrote: And I don't think that any of us have a problem with that. I understand and respect everything you say. But, leaving aside the act that I'm not a member of any political party, I still cannot see it as anything but anti-democratic, in the larger sense, to ignore a clear majority verdict (within the parameters established by the Referendum) and insist on acting counter to it. Advocate change, yes, that's our inalienable right. But to decide: I don't like this decision so let's overrule it, that's the hurdle i can't cross.Other views are available.Secondly, people telling me that this is democracy and I have to live with it. You know what? The referendum vote was simply one part of the democratic process, and as I keep mentioning to those who conveniently forget it, it was ‘Advisory,’ not legally binding. The vote itself is not ‘democracy’. Democracy doesn’t happen on one day for one vote and then go away again. Democracy is an ongoing process in which we are free to express ourselves however we see fit as long as we do not descend into hate speech (which I haven’t). Democracy is part of a process and is happening all the time. I have the democratic right to fight against decisions made on my behalf that I don’t like, and I don’t like this one, so I am fighting it every step of the way. Do not throw the word democracy in my face. It is not a trump card.
Is it so impossible for people to understand that?
mbc1955 wrote:I know that. But they're not available to me. "But to decide: I don't like this decision so let's overrule it, that's the hurdle I can't cross."gilsey wrote:This is from the blog that's been linked. https://katyboo1.wordpress.com/2016/06/27/happy-now/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;mbc1955 wrote: And I don't think that any of us have a problem with that. I understand and respect everything you say. But, leaving aside the act that I'm not a member of any political party, I still cannot see it as anything but anti-democratic, in the larger sense, to ignore a clear majority verdict (within the parameters established by the Referendum) and insist on acting counter to it. Advocate change, yes, that's our inalienable right. But to decide: I don't like this decision so let's overrule it, that's the hurdle i can't cross.Other views are available.Secondly, people telling me that this is democracy and I have to live with it. You know what? The referendum vote was simply one part of the democratic process, and as I keep mentioning to those who conveniently forget it, it was ‘Advisory,’ not legally binding. The vote itself is not ‘democracy’. Democracy doesn’t happen on one day for one vote and then go away again. Democracy is an ongoing process in which we are free to express ourselves however we see fit as long as we do not descend into hate speech (which I haven’t). Democracy is part of a process and is happening all the time. I have the democratic right to fight against decisions made on my behalf that I don’t like, and I don’t like this one, so I am fighting it every step of the way. Do not throw the word democracy in my face. It is not a trump card.
Is it so impossible for people to understand that?
Tim Farron has said he will fight to re-join the EU and that message is far more appealing to me than Corbyn right now. I'm not really advocating overturning anything, just saying the Tories wanted out so they can take us out as far as I'm concerned (although I think they could be capable of that kind of anti-democratic act whether your approve of it or not and I wouldn't put it past them to come out as heroes if they did do a u-turn when the dust has settled and the economy has tanked). Labour should have nothing to do with it.mbc1955 wrote:And I don't think that any of us have a problem with that. I understand and respect everything you say. But, leaving aside the act that I'm not a member of any political party, I still cannot see it as anything but anti-democratic, in the larger sense, to ignore a clear majority verdict (within the parameters established by the Referendum) and insist on acting counter to it. Advocate change, yes, that's our inalienable right. But to decide: I don't like this decision so let's overrule it, that's the hurdle i can't cross.Willow904 wrote: No, democracy is this. If Labour doesn't offer me what I want and need from a political party, I will leave and join another party. This is true of all of us and we comment here, on a political forum, to express when we approve (I really liked Ed, though I always understood that he didn't really appeal to quite a lot of Labour voters) and we express when we disapprove. I'm just explaining why I can't, personally, support Jeremy Corbyn any longer. There are concrete logical reasons, but mostly there are lot of emotional, incoherent reasons. I have gone over these. I understand that there are a lot of people in the Labour party who are going to stand by Jeremy Corbyn to the bitter end and they are right to do so, if that's how they feel. I'm not trying to change any minds, I'm trying to give you an insight into how not everyone in Labour feels the same and why the intransigence on both sides will pull the party apart.
Someone on that thread left some crumbs:AngryAsWell wrote:https://twitter.com/search?q=%40EmmaKennedy%20&src=typd" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;NonOxCol wrote:
Who the hell is that exactly, one has to wonder?Emma Kennedy Verified account
@EmmaKennedy
What is required, immediately, is for a proper, sober, sensible leader to denounce Farage UTTERLY.
And here's some other fellow:Isn’t it funny? When I came here 17 years ago and I said that I wanted to lead a campaign to get Britain to leave the European Union, you all laughed at me – well I have to say, you’re not laughing now, are you?
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... 10842.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;They have always derided me as a prophet. Today countless numbers of those who laughed at that time, laugh no longer. Those who are still laughing now, also will perhaps laugh no longer after a while . . .
Goodness me. I seem to remember you gloating about what you'd done. And I thanked you for supporting Corbyn.SpinningHugo wrote:Sorry, that is complete nonsense.ohsocynical wrote:Hugo mischievously paid £3 and voted for Corbyn last year, or so he reckoned.danesclose wrote: A patronising "Yes, you've made your point, now run along and let the big boys look after things" type of thing?
And by the way, his name is spelt Corbyn
I was a member, voted for all the candidates other than Corbyn (order Kendall, Cooper, Burnham) and resigned on 12 September.
Unless of course you have an alter ego?ohsocynical wrote:Goodness me. I seem to remember you gloating about what you'd done. And I thanked you for supporting Corbyn.SpinningHugo wrote:Sorry, that is complete nonsense.ohsocynical wrote: Hugo mischievously paid £3 and voted for Corbyn last year, or so he reckoned.
I was a member, voted for all the candidates other than Corbyn (order Kendall, Cooper, Burnham) and resigned on 12 September.
Not going to endear your party to the electorate, Tories, not with that in your manifesto.George Osborne warns UK to expect spending cuts and tax rises after Brexit vote
The next Conservative government will have to cut spending even further and raise taxes to ensure the country can
live within its diminished means post-Brexit, George Osborne has said.
The Chancellor said it was “very clear” that the country would be poorer following the people’s decision to leave the
EU and while ruling out an immediate ‘emergency budget’, he said that the next prime minister would “absolutely”
have to inflict further austerity measures on the population.
Once seen as the frontrunner to succeed David Cameron as Conservative leader, Mr Osborne’s reputation with the
party lies in tatters following the Brexit vote, which he vehemently argued against, and he has ruled himself out
from running in the imminent Conservative leadership contest.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 06921.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Their heads should be on f***ing spikes.citizenJA wrote:Not going to endear your party to the electorate, Tories, not with that in your manifesto.George Osborne warns UK to expect spending cuts and tax rises after Brexit vote
The next Conservative government will have to cut spending even further and raise taxes to ensure the country can
live within its diminished means post-Brexit, George Osborne has said.
The Chancellor said it was “very clear” that the country would be poorer following the people’s decision to leave the
EU and while ruling out an immediate ‘emergency budget’, he said that the next prime minister would “absolutely”
have to inflict further austerity measures on the population.
Once seen as the frontrunner to succeed David Cameron as Conservative leader, Mr Osborne’s reputation with the
party lies in tatters following the Brexit vote, which he vehemently argued against, and he has ruled himself out
from running in the imminent Conservative leadership contest.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 06921.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Osborne runs away with independent fortune to comfort him.
I think that was Rusty actually.ohsocynical wrote:Unless of course you have an alter ego?ohsocynical wrote:Goodness me. I seem to remember you gloating about what you'd done. And I thanked you for supporting Corbyn.SpinningHugo wrote: Sorry, that is complete nonsense.
I was a member, voted for all the candidates other than Corbyn (order Kendall, Cooper, Burnham) and resigned on 12 September.
Rumoured that her CLP aren't too impressed. At all. Trying to find the link.AnatolyKasparov wrote:Rumours that the "stop Corbyn" candidate in the coming leadership election will be Angela Eagle.
Can't say I'm massively impressed or enthused by that......
The pun writers dream.PorFavor wrote:Stephen Crabb to try for Conservative leader.
I read an email from her CLP,but it was one of the btl comments so unsure if it was genuine.StephenDolan wrote:Rumoured that her CLP aren't too impressed. At all. Trying to find the link.AnatolyKasparov wrote:Rumours that the "stop Corbyn" candidate in the coming leadership election will be Angela Eagle.
Can't say I'm massively impressed or enthused by that......
The interview yesterday, do you know - or another TV appearance?Rebecca wrote:I read an email from her CLP,but it was one of the btl comments so unsure if it was genuine.StephenDolan wrote:Rumoured that her CLP aren't too impressed. At all. Trying to find the link.AnatolyKasparov wrote:Rumours that the "stop Corbyn" candidate in the coming leadership election will be Angela Eagle.
Can't say I'm massively impressed or enthused by that......
But they didn't sound happy with Eagles' tv performance.
AngryAsWell wrote:& now the tories are taking away her right to speak for her country
Jamie RossVerified account
@JamieRoss7
Today's Tory amendment takes out the mandate for Sturgeon to talk to EU member states and rails against #indyref2.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
) If you want to cause a fight, you're going about it the right way. Get over yourself and accept that people disagree with you and don't sneer.Willow904 wrote:
Tim Farron has said he will fight to re-join the EU and that message is far more appealing to me than Corbyn right now. I'm not really advocating overturning anything, just saying the Tories wanted out so they can take us out as far as I'm concerned (although I think they could be capable of that kind of anti-democratic act whether your approve of it or not and I wouldn't put it past them to come out as heroes if they did do a u-turn when the dust has settled and the economy has tanked). Labour should have nothing to do with it.
PorFavor wrote:The interview yesterday, do you know - or another TV appearance?Rebecca wrote:I read an email from her CLP,but it was one of the btl comments so unsure if it was genuine.StephenDolan wrote: Rumoured that her CLP aren't too impressed. At all. Trying to find the link.
But they didn't sound happy with Eagles' tv performance.
Benn? I don't think it's as much love for him as love for his father. And as someone pointed out on Twitter, his dad never actually rose very far as he was considered too far left especially when Blair became leader. Corbyn and Benn were good friends. As was Ralph Miliband. Ed worked for Benn as a researcher? I believe.JonnyT1234 wrote:PS Hugo's list earlier. So no one worth voting for then. And I can't quite believe he actually included Cooper...
Incidentally am I wrong in thinking that Benn has always been a singularly unimpressive MP who has never actually achieved anything much in his entire parliamentary career? I just don't get the love for him. Has he done something significant in the - 20(?)ish - years he's been an MP and I just missed it?
PS well aware the same can be justifiably said of Corbyn. But Corbyn's significant achievement - for me - is that he has never bullshitted and never bowed to the perceived wisdom when it's so obviously wrong (edit: and he's also never scraped and arse-licked his way into power. Edit 2: he actually got there on merit).
