Wednesday 29th June 2016

Post by **refitman** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 7:10 am

Morning all.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 7:30 am

Still don't think giving people a "choice" without having a plan for one of them, or outlying the implications of both is strictly speaking democratic. This was a populist vote, not a democratic one, and one that is not legally binding as a "decision". In the UK, currently, decisions of this nature are taken in Parliament by our democratically elected MPs.

I accept that this poll (given the above) indicates there is an interest in leaving the EU, but the next step should then be the detailed development of the possible scenarios - and then we vote on that (via a general election or other means).

I know you will tell me this can't happen, but, like anything else, it is a question of will. There was a time when non elites voting at all "could never happen".

To clarify yesterday on the use of "wow". This did not mean that going back to the 80s had "Wow factor" a phrase anyway that would be better off being not in use, it was a sardonic "wow" meaning something along the lines of wtf in a weary tone. I still think politization of the next generation is a good thing, but feel that the price for them and us is way too high.

Giving in to an ill-informed populist poll to me seems irresponsible. Though I understand completely (and am grappling with) the impossiblity of introducing non-democratic precedents. I'm afraid I still cannot equate this with being democratic having been too complex to put to a referendum OTHER THAN FOR taking the temperature of the country, ill-informed, unplanned and without the same kind of benchmarks (eg 2/3 of electorate) that sensible democracies put in place. As others have mentioned, the smallest business or charity would not be able to change something as significant as this without at least 2/3 of the possible vote.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 7:32 am

Morning.

Apologies to hairychap@ for thinking you may have been one of a group of right wingers viewing last Friday - was feeling a bit low about everything yesterday.

But I'm glad you said hello, welcome and hope to see you again.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 7:33 am

Interesting point in a letter in the guardian today that hadn't twigged with me before: many voters have never experienced a vote that actually counts.

Just dawned on me that no wonder so many think the EU isn't democratic when so few of us bother to actually vote for our MEPs. Unlike me, who has had the benefit of voting in not only the PR-based EU elections but also the London Mayoral ones, they've never, ever experienced real democracy before. No wonder it's [edit: allegedly] taken a few by surprise.

Link: http://gu.com/p/4nvzb?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 7:44 am

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... -democracy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Brexit is a turning point in the history of western democracy. Never before has such a drastic decision been taken through so primitive a procedure – a one-round referendum based on a simple majority. Never before has the fate of a country – of an entire continent, in fact – been changed by the single swing of such a blunt axe, wielded by disenchanted and poorly informed citizens.

Precisely. I find I cannot consider this democratic.
(just so you know, as others have said, other views are both available and legitimate)

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 7:52 am

... of an entire continent, in fact ...

This is one of things that irked me about the campaign. People saying that heads of other EU states had no right to 'interfere' in 'our referendum'. It just demonstrated how small minded and parochial they were, completely incapable or unwilling to notice that the UK wasn't already an isolated little adjunct to the continent but an integral part of it.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 8:03 am

I'm with you on that Tiny.

If we really had to have a referendum it should have been to ask the country for their opinion, to judge the prevailing mood.

Then parties could have based their future manifestos around Brexit or Remain and been forced to present plans and full scenarios for a real life Brexit.
Yes, that does mean a general election result might have meant Brexit, but there would have been much more scrutiny about the process. This referendum has been too back of a fag packet, no wonder chaos ensued.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 8:05 am

Sorry to add to the long list of things that help to crush the soul, but this isn't (directly) politics related. Read the first sentence of the second paragraph in the 'How' section of this tech event:

http://www.iosdevcamp.org/iosdevcamp-2016-announcement/

2016 everyone. It's 2016. Not 1916.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 8:06 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... -democracy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Brexit is a turning point in the history of western democracy. Never before has such a drastic decision been taken through so primitive a procedure – a one-round referendum based on a simple majority. Never before has the fate of a country – of an entire continent, in fact – been changed by the single swing of such a blunt axe, wielded by disenchanted and poorly informed citizens.
Precisely. I find I cannot consider this democratic.
(just so you know, as others have said, other views are both available and legitimate)

It was such a stupid idea, from the start, and I'm still er surprised that so many played along, (Corbyn, lack of intellectual rigour ??? ) and are treating the result as the Will of the People , and therefore to be respected . It's now going to drag on for months, and I do wonder if Boris or "whoever" doesn't backtrack when things have cooled down.

It is a subject for serious discussion with very many I meet in rural France too, commiserations began at 7am (our time) from one of our district nurses !

Thanks for the good debate .

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 8:13 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... -democracy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Brexit is a turning point in the history of western democracy. Never before has such a drastic decision been taken through so primitive a procedure – a one-round referendum based on a simple majority. Never before has the fate of a country – of an entire continent, in fact – been changed by the single swing of such a blunt axe, wielded by disenchanted and poorly informed citizens.
Precisely. I find I cannot consider this democratic.
(just so you know, as others have said, other views are both available and legitimate)

In David Cameron's case, it's a complete abdication of responsibility.

Parliament chose to make the referendum non-binding. If only they had done something as simple as explaining this to people before they voted. If only political journalists had bothered to explain this during the campaign. The reason why this didn't happen was because of the words of one man, David Cameron. Our PM said he would abide by the result. As he had the power to do so, it was assumed it would happen. Shame everyone forgot David Cameron's a liar and a coward.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 8:16 am

What happens if Corbyn stands (as it seems he will) and beats Eagle?

How could the PLP continue in its current form?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 8:17 am

Devastated AM fears economic collapse for county after Brexit.
http://www.cambrian-news.co.uk/article. ... hyear=2016" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks a bunch Brexit or Lexit supporters, this is about real people, people I live amongst in Ceredigion. It's already tough enough for people to scrape a living here.
There are not many hill farmers driving fancy cars.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 8:18 am

Waterworks from Anna Soubry in full flow yesterday, inebriated or emotional Nadine Dorres reckons the former. " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ,

Now I hear Dame Margaret Beckett broke down on R4 this morning.

I'm getting fed up of these politicians lack of resolve in situations often avoidable and of their own making.

They should try living a year in my shoes if they want a reason to cry, they wouldn't last a day.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 8:20 am

SpinningHugo wrote:What happens if Corbyn stands (as it seems he will) and beats Eagle?

How could the PLP continue in its current form?

They should have thought of that. Finding an outstanding candidate would help. Not Eagle.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 8:22 am

yahyah wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:What happens if Corbyn stands (as it seems he will) and beats Eagle?

How could the PLP continue in its current form?
They should have thought of that. Finding an outstanding candidate would help. Not Eagle.

"We shouldn't be here" is not an answer though.

What happens?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 8:23 am

I'm past caring. The country, and party, is in a handcart hurtling towards hell.
Time to get a violin and start fiddling ?

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 8:24 am

SpinningHugo wrote:What happens if Corbyn stands (as it seems he will) and beats Eagle?

How could the PLP continue in its current form?

Perhaps the PLP should have thought about that in the 9 months they've been plotting?

Too slow typing. Sorry YahYah.

Hugo, the Labour Party self destructs is what happens. Bravo the PLP for destroying Labour. Boo to Corbyn for destroying the Labour Party.

Edit: grammar
Edit 2: correction of PLP to Labour Party. Didn't mean that... Both are going to be culpable in the downfall of Labour.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 8:27 am

Yes, there seems to be a theme developing. Brexit, Lexit, Labour MPs, plotters with no clue about what to do.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 8:27 am

JonnyT1234 wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:What happens if Corbyn stands (as it seems he will) and beats Eagle?

How could the PLP continue in its current form?
Perhaps the PLP should have thought about that in the 9 months they've been plotting?

Too slow typing. Sorry YahYah.

Hugo, the Labour Party self destructs is what happens. Bravo the PLP for destroying Labour. Boo to Corbyn for destroying the PLP.

Edit: grammar

So, because that is the PLP's problem, you'll vote Corbyn anyway?

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 8:29 am

SpinningHugo wrote:So, because that is the PLP's problem, you'll vote Corbyn anyway?

Sorry, see my correction. Didn't mean the PLP in my final sentence.

I think I'll be sitting this out actually. I'm done with the Labour Party.

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 8:34 am

Morftertinoons....from yesterday...

Labour/Corbyn determined to activate the exit
BJ/Gove determined to activate exit but not care two hoots about the effects on the real economy
Rhyming Slang/Ms May (or may not) on a blatant 'we're not leaving, it was all a horrible dream' Remain ticket

By the looks of that though it's already unravelled
(my bold)
Seriously question I don't know the answer to - has Corbyn said if Labour were in government he'd send off Article 50 to Brussels if it's not already there?

@CJa

Sorry CJA - should've added the 'what if'...as I said, it gave me a chill down the spine to think of being in a situation where only a Tory was offering to keep fighting for Britain to stay

....I have (just like everyone else, unfortunately) absolutely no idea what, whoever it is, the Labour leader will do (FWIW, and I'm aware this will be unpopular with some, I'm back to supporting Corbyn as part of the unwashed, unkempt delusional hard left - but of course, will listen the new leader, should there be one, in the Hope (just north of Peterborough) that any winners acceptance speech (should they be able to convince the required %age of the membership) includes real gratitude to Corbyn for his work and a commitment to a contunuation of the anti-austerity platform.

...but...as the forces of the media and the PLP are arranged against it, it's very very unlikely....so....post-Labour Leader election, Britain is likely to have its own version of Syriza or Podemos....and there's a very real likelihood that its leader will also be the leader of the HMs' official opposition....

Some great separationism in the EU Parliament yesterday, with Farridge speaking for Britain (booed) and the SNP speaking for Scotland (standing ovation)....yet no mention from either about the 48%...which is more than 45%....and what have the SNP got as a result of their 45% Referendum vote? (Rhetorical, natch)

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 8:36 am

yahyah wrote:I'm past caring. The country, and party, is in a handcart hurtling towards hell.
Time to get a violin and start fiddling ?

[youtube]6uS5xPWfxPY[/youtube]

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 8:37 am

Hugo, yesterday I supported your right to be here.
But please don't prod people who haven't created the crisis with sharp sticks.

As a naive Labour member I thought that the membership elect, the party works together.
The whole history of the Labour party shows that rarely happens of course. Why should it now ?

Where is this miraculous Blair type leader we should be voting for ? Who are they ? Where are they hiding ?
Believe me, if such a person existed I would vote for them. In the end I want an electable Labour party, particularly now the right and Farage are flexing their muscles. It'll get to the point where having ideals will be a luxury we can't afford the way things are going.
Don't send out a Kendall again.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 8:40 am

yahyah wrote:Hugo, yesterday I supported your right to be here.
But please don't prod people who haven't created the crisis with sharp sticks.

As a naive Labour member I thought that the membership elect, the party works together.
The whole history of the Labour party shows that rarely happens.

Where is this miraculous Blair type leader we should be voting for ? Who are they ? Where are they hiding ?
Believe me, if such a person existed I would vote for them. In the end I want an electable Labour party, particularly now the right and Farage are flexing their muscles.
Don't send out a Kendall again.

Personally I'd want Cooper, but she is 25/1 and nobody else seems to want her

http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/bri ... our-leader" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I put a bet on Watson last year at 8/1

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 8:40 am

yahyah wrote:I'm with you on that Tiny.

If we really had to have a referendum it should have been to ask the country for their opinion, to judge the prevailing mood.

Then parties could have based their future manifestos around Brexit or Remain and been forced to present plans and full scenarios for a real life Brexit.
Yes, that does mean a general election result might have meant Brexit, but there would have been much more scrutiny about the process. This referendum has been too back of a fag packet, no wonder chaos ensued.

Apparently having a brexit plan would have caused internal division & made it a target for criticism.

http://www.conservativehome.com/thetory ... -them.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is why it didn’t single out any of the post-Brexit options for support – the Norwegian option, the Swiss option, the Turkish option, the bespoke option, or any of the other options that many Eurosceptics delight in exploring, sometimes in mind-numbing detail.
In doing so, it avoided two dangers, both probably fatal. The first was the Remain campaign shelling and strafing Leave’s favoured option until there was nothing left of it. The second – and probably more dangerous – was the Leave coalition itself falling out over one. The psychology of Euroscepticism is fissiparous. Were it not, Vote Leave and Leave EU would have avoided the mother of all designation contests – one that came close to rendering the fragile pro-Brexit coalition altogether. Championing one policy options among many would have sparked internal civil war.

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 8:44 am

Willow904 wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... -democracy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Brexit is a turning point in the history of western democracy. Never before has such a drastic decision been taken through so primitive a procedure – a one-round referendum based on a simple majority. Never before has the fate of a country – of an entire continent, in fact – been changed by the single swing of such a blunt axe, wielded by disenchanted and poorly informed citizens.
Precisely. I find I cannot consider this democratic.
(just so you know, as others have said, other views are both available and legitimate)
In David Cameron's case, it's a complete abdication of responsibility.

Parliament chose to make the referendum non-binding. If only they had done something as simple as explaining this to people before they voted. If only political journalists had bothered to explain this during the campaign. The reason why this didn't happen was because of the words of one man, David Cameron. Our PM said he would abide by the result. As he had the power to do so, it was assumed it would happen. Shame everyone forgot David Cameron's a liar and a coward.

This and this....again and again....

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 8:44 am

If the mood on here is in any way indicative of the mood amongst Labour voters in the country as a whole, then the party is in for a mighty shock even if they somehow do manage to avoid a split.

Quite a few people are saying they are resigning as members or are losing interest in politics as a whole (I fall into this camp) or either voting elswhere or not at all. If this sample here is a reflection of what is happening in the electorate, Labour will be lucky to scrape third place.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 8:45 am

So winning was more important than knowing how to deal with that win ?

Hairychap · Post by **Hairychap** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 8:46 am

yahyah wrote:Morning.

Apologies to hairychap@ for thinking you may have been one of a group of right wingers viewing last Friday - was feeling a bit low about everything yesterday.

But I'm glad you said hello, welcome and hope to see you again.

Thanks Yahyah but nothing to apologise for, it's perfectly understandable. I'll keep lurking about while leaving the occasional packet of biscuits.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 8:47 am

Watson or Cooper ? We will be in opposition for a generation then.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 8:49 am

RobertSnozers wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
JonnyT1234 wrote: Perhaps the PLP should have thought about that in the 9 months they've been plotting?

Too slow typing. Sorry YahYah.

Hugo, the Labour Party self destructs is what happens. Bravo the PLP for destroying Labour. Boo to Corbyn for destroying the PLP.

Edit: grammar
So, because that is the PLP's problem, you'll vote Corbyn anyway?
No. I will vote Corbyn so as not hand the party back to people like you.

The PLP cannot continue in its current form, because its current form has hobbled every leader since Blair left. Labour can't win with the PLP in its current form, and the PLP should never have been permitted to assume that form.

And so what is your vision of what happens next? Deselections of the 172? Or do they go off and form an SDP2?

The big issue I suppose would be who would take the unions, especially Unite, with them if a new party were formed.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 8:50 am

SpinningHugo wrote:What happens if Corbyn stands (as it seems he will) and beats Eagle?

How could the PLP continue in its current form?

It can't. The Labour party is almost over.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 8:55 am

Your Scott F Fitzgerald quote looks apt Willow.

One of the things that has helped me through this is finding solace in literature, getting old books off the shelves.
Seeing that things have happened before, how people weather such traumas, helps counter the gloom.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 8:57 am

I recommend Martin Rowson's Twitter timeline, starting from here.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Won't make you feel any better like, and I don't agree with everything in it, but it is interesting and fits my mood.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 9:00 am

RobertSnozers wrote:It means no such thing, in my view, just that Cameron does not want to get his hands even dirtier by being the PM who took us out, plus he can't be bothered to go back to the EU and try to negotiate the divorce, where he would undoubtedly get a kicking. (This was, I suspect the reason most Tories wanted Cameron to stay on - so he could be the ine to bear the blame for the undoubtedly poor deal we will get).

Says it all that the only intelligent and clever thing Cameron has done wrt the referendum is one of conceited self-preservation.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 9:01 am

The SNP will ask to be the official opposition in the Commons says the Guardian.

Wouldn't be surprised if the SNP start an England/Wales franchise.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 9:02 am

Cameron said he is sorry he lost the referendum.
Makes it sound like he lost half a crown on a nag at Aintree.

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 9:02 am

RobertSnozers wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote: Precisely. I find I cannot consider this democratic.
(just so you know, as others have said, other views are both available and legitimate)
In David Cameron's case, it's a complete abdication of responsibility.

Parliament chose to make the referendum non-binding. If only they had done something as simple as explaining this to people before they voted. If only political journalists had bothered to explain this during the campaign. The reason why this didn't happen was because of the words of one man, David Cameron. Our PM said he would abide by the result. As he had the power to do so, it was assumed it would happen. Shame everyone forgot David Cameron's a liar and a coward.
I don't think parliament chose to make the referendum non binding so much as referendums have no legal weight in the British constitution. Though if that's not correct and parliament could have made the referendum binding, I stand to be corrected.

As I've said before, I think it would be hugely problematic to go back on it because the renegotiation was predicated on leave meaning leave, and the - admittedly cowardly and mendacious - PM made numerous statements, both here and in Europe, to the effect that it would be. I believe that the way the referendum was conducted does give it a form of legal weight. If it weren't to go ahead there would undoubtedly be legal challenges. Treating it this way was even more idiotic than holding the thing in the first place, but we can't change the past. Some have interpreted Cameron's failure to invoke A50 right away as an indication that it might not be invoked at all. It means no such thing, in my view, just that Cameron does not want to get his hands even dirtier by being the PM who took us out, plus he can't be bothered to go back to the EU and try to negotiate the divorce, where he would undoubtedly get a kicking. (This was, I suspect the reason most Tories wanted Cameron to stay on - so he could be the ine to bear the blame for the undoubtedly poor deal we will get).

I don't doubt that the consequences for the country of going back on it would be less bad than the consequences of going ahead with it, but hardly anyone in positions of power and authority is talking seriously about Brexit not happening. Only Jeremy Hunt is deviating from the line that it will happen straightforwardly 'at some point' with his ridiculous and risible suggestion that there should be a referendum on the divorce settlement, which he seems to have got mixed up with the post Brexit negotiations of Britain's *future* relationship with the EU. And this is just kicking the can down the road.

Having been wielded, the blunt axe has fallen. I've yet to see any authoritative suggestion of why it might not land.

Here in Hope (which may shortly be situated somewhere to the south-west of Cork RoI (our company buys supplies from Europe and the US (currency), then creates a product to export back to Europe and the US (regulations (contains electronics n'stuff))....so double-whammy recieved...thanks Britain

) we think there's a possibility someone could run on a platform of an immediate GE, include discussions about Britains position in the EU (the 48% ain't going away) and run on a platform of 'if we win, 2nd Referendum based on truth not media spin and incoherence' (whilst discussing the implications of Brexit during the campaigns).

I know, I know....too simple

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 9:05 am

RobertSnozers wrote:To repeat an analogy I made yesterday, the rebels set fire to the house in the hope that Corbyn would jump out the window. He didn't jump, so it looks like everyone burns. Happy?

It's just amazing that they did this after locking themselves inside with him while lighting the petrol on the top floor of the building, in the furthest corner from the door that they've just barricaded with the wardrobe.

It's completely impossible to elucidate what on Earth they were thinking.

Edit: ... and they've been *planning* this moment for 9 months. 9 months!

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 9:06 am

See you later. Weather appalling again today, cold, wet, dark.

We're ordering the materials for a DIY project.
We are rather old fashioned but we've planned it, have assessed all the pros and cons, risks, costed it and know exactly how we are going to do it.
Not in the spirit of the times are we ? Should have just stuck a pin in a list of materials, not checked the prices, made sure we'll be out when it is delivered and made it up as we went along. Then wondered why the thing fell down.

But I'm not bitter.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 9:06 am

The SNP are to raise a point of order today to see if they can be the offical opposition, due to Labour being unable to carry out the business of the house they can no longer fulfill that remit. " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 9:14 am

RobertSnozers wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote: Precisely. I find I cannot consider this democratic.
(just so you know, as others have said, other views are both available and legitimate)
In David Cameron's case, it's a complete abdication of responsibility.

Parliament chose to make the referendum non-binding. If only they had done something as simple as explaining this to people before they voted. If only political journalists had bothered to explain this during the campaign. The reason why this didn't happen was because of the words of one man, David Cameron. Our PM said he would abide by the result. As he had the power to do so, it was assumed it would happen. Shame everyone forgot David Cameron's a liar and a coward.
I don't think parliament chose to make the referendum non binding so much as referendums have no legal weight in the British constitution. Though if that's not correct and parliament could have made the referendum binding, I stand to be corrected.

As I've said before, I think it would be hugely problematic to go back on it because the renegotiation was predicated on leave meaning leave, and the - admittedly cowardly and mendacious - PM made numerous statements, both here and in Europe, to the effect that it would be. I believe that the way the referendum was conducted does give it a form of legal weight. If it weren't to go ahead there would undoubtedly be legal challenges. Treating it this way was even more idiotic than holding the thing in the first place, but we can't change the past. Some have interpreted Cameron's failure to invoke A50 right away as an indication that it might not be invoked at all. It means no such thing, in my view, just that Cameron does not want to get his hands even dirtier by being the PM who took us out, plus he can't be bothered to go back to the EU and try to negotiate the divorce, where he would undoubtedly get a kicking. (This was, I suspect the reason most Tories wanted Cameron to stay on - so he could be the ine to bear the blame for the undoubtedly poor deal we will get).

I don't doubt that the consequences for the country of going back on it would be less bad than the consequences of going ahead with it, but hardly anyone in positions of power and authority is talking seriously about Brexit not happening. Only Jeremy Hunt is deviating from the line that it will happen straightforwardly 'at some point' with his ridiculous and risible suggestion that there should be a referendum on the divorce settlement, which he seems to have got mixed up with the post Brexit negotiations of Britain's *future* relationship with the EU. And this is just kicking the can down the road.

Having been wielded, the blunt axe has fallen. I've yet to see any authoritative suggestion of why it might not land.

It's my understanding that the AV referendum was set up to be legally binding, presumably so the Tories couldn't double-cross the Libdems on it. The Tories don't do anything by accident. There's undoubtedly method in this madness and I personally feel the confusion caused by Cameron running away is in part in hope that a long period of uncertainty may bring the whole EU down. Once article 50 is invoked by the only people who have the power to do so, the current Tory government, then of course I would expect Labour to then get going on talking about Brexit and how the left would like to see it happen, but until that point I think these discussions should be internal in preparation and outwardly they should be attacking the vacuum left by Cameron's departure and pointing out the added uncertainty and thus economic turmoil this has caused. Cameron promised to stay. Will no one point out how badly he's let the country down by ducking his responsibility for a situation of his own making?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 9:18 am

Good morning all

I think what we are starting to see is the actual unravelling of our political compact that originated after the war.

This has been under threat for a while but has been held at bay by are unrepresentative voting system and the lack of interest of acting on clear indicators such as the voting partitipation rate

The Tory Party are carrying on as though nothing has happened - Camero^n's behaviour has been nothing short of shocking, and makes me wonder if he was the one who voted Leave

The Labour Party problems should really come as no surprise. This has been building since 2010 and accelerated since 2015. I think it is pretty clear now this was a coordinated plot (not by all but the ball was started rolling - who will become clear as time goes on) and iot will be interesting to see who the puppet masters are.

We are seeing some circumstantial links between a few things and the one that was most interesting to me was the publicity given to the hecking at the Pride festival just before this kicked off.

I am just so very surprised if they thought Corbyn wouldn't react to this. There were three options: he would go meekly on his way, he would go loudly saying the party is no longer for people with a left looking perspective, or the current situation

I do not think anyone expected the first option, so by going about it this way they have forcced something that could split the party, especialyl with membership so firmly behind him. Look at the vote in Eagle's CLP

For sentimental reasons I wish Corbyn could go now and the party would try to resurrect itself, but politically I think it should now go on and see it through....however painful that will be

Who knows what will come out the other side........

I just want to finish by saying something in praise of the SNP speaker in the European Parliament yesterday.....his speech was very good although the BBC decided to cut him short so they could focus on Farage, as normal. He did mention all Remain voters in England and Wales and that he was speaking for them as well when he said we wanted to Remain in the EU and should be remembered. I think someone upthread suggested he hadn't and felt it wasn't a fair reflection

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 9:20 am

yahyah wrote:The SNP will ask to be the official opposition in the Commons says the Guardian.

Wouldn't be surprised if the SNP start an England/Wales franchise.

By whom? Surely that's not possible, is it? How will the Brexiters react? After all, the UK Parliament is 'sovereign'....'give it back its' powers' rage the Brexiters...'take back control'....so one of the first votes should surely be the enact Article 50 (or whichever bit it is that has to happen in the UK Parliament for Brexit to actually start happening)...which can't happen without a vote...there's an awful lot of Bremanians in that there Westmonster.

Edit: I see from Tobys' post that they're going to ask about it....um...wasn't a Tory majority in the House supposed to stop the SNP taking over?

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 9:20 am

yahyah wrote:Cameron said he is sorry he lost the referendum.
Makes it sound like he lost half a crown on a nag at Aintree.

Instead of referendum, he could have just flipped a coin 100 times.
Probably have come up 51:49, but at least he could put blame on the queens head.

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 9:24 am

howsillyofme1 wrote:Good morning all

I think what we are starting to see is the actual unravelling of our political compact that originated after the war.

This has been under threat for a while but has been held at bay by are unrepresentative voting system and the lack of interest of acting on clear indicators such as the voting partitipation rate

The Tory Party are carrying on as though nothing has happened - Camero^n's behaviour has been nothing short of shocking, and makes me wonder if he was the one who voted Leave

The Labour Party problems should really come as no surprise. This has been building since 2010 and accelerated since 2015. I think it is pretty clear now this was a coordinated plot (not by all but the ball was started rolling - who will become clear as time goes on) and iot will be interesting to see who the puppet masters are.

We are seeing some circumstantial links between a few things and the one that was most interesting to me was the publicity given to the hecking at the Pride festival just before this kicked off.

I am just so very surprised if they thought Corbyn wouldn't react to this. There were three options: he would go meekly on his way, he would go loudly saying the party is no longer for people with a left looking perspective, or the current situation

I do not think anyone expected the first option, so by going about it this way they have forcced something that could split the party, especialyl with membership so firmly behind him. Look at the vote in Eagle's CLP

For sentimental reasons I wish Corbyn could go now and the party would try to resurrect itself, but politically I think it should now go on and see it through....however painful that will be

Who knows what will come out the other side........

I just want to finish by saying something in praise of the SNP speaker in the European Parliament yesterday.....his speech was very good although the BBC decided to cut him short so they could focus on Farage, as normal. He did mention all Remain voters in England and Wales and that he was speaking for them as well when he said we wanted to Remain in the EU and should be remembered. I think someone upthread suggested he hadn't and felt it wasn't a fair reflection

Mea culpa....and thank you for the correction....I was also impressed by what I heard, (when he talked about Scotland - the bit they broadcast - I wonder why they just broadcast that bit?) but obviously didn't hear all of it - I hope the message is getting out to Europe too (that Farridge doesn't speak for the nation, just his tiny membership)

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 9:24 am

Well, I thought last night that #PostRefRacism was slowing down.

It isn't. It's getting worse.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 9:25 am

Hypotheticals time. Eagle (alone) stands against Corbyn who ignores calls to stand down. Assuming Corbyn won, what would you expect the majority of Labour MPs to do?

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 9:30 am

On 13th.June, Angela Eagle said this -
"Jeremy is up and down the country, pursuing an intinerary that would make a 25-year-old tired, he has not stopped. We are doing our best, but f we are not reported, it is very difficult".

In her resignation letter, this -
"....under your leadership the case to remain in the EU was made with half-hearted ambivalence...."

So which is it, Angela? Did he work his socks off or did he shrug his shoulders and do nothing? Make your bloody mind up!

I used to have a lot of respect for Angela Eagle, even though I didn't always agree with her one some things. No more.
She was asked by her CLP to support Corbyn, and has gone against the wishes of her constituency party.

If she is one of the front-runners for a leadership bid, I hope people remember all this.

I do not think the PLP have a clue, frankly.

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 9:32 am

StephenDolan wrote:Hypotheticals time. Eagle (alone) stands against Corbyn who ignores calls to stand down. Assuming Corbyn won, what would you expect the majority of Labour MPs to do?

Get in line behind the democratic mandate from the membership....but that's really what they should've been doing anyway since Corbyns' election.