Wednesday 29th June 2016

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 9:35 am

yahyah wrote:Your Scott F Fitzgerald quote looks apt Willow.

One of the things that has helped me through this is finding solace in literature, getting old books off the shelves.
Seeing that things have happened before, how people weather such traumas, helps counter the gloom.

Since the GE defeat last year I've been clinging to humour in my quotes in an attempt to keep my spirits up, but given the devastation I felt at the referendum result I needed something more complex to express how I feel. We are united by our hopes for the future, we're all striving for something better, yet ultimately we are shaped by our past and in some ways are bound by it. Right now our past seems to be casting a long shadow, I feel constricted by the choices of an older generation, but a new generation is born all the time and will keep striving, keep pushing forward for a better life in their own way. Life goes on.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 9:38 am

This is lovely, isn't it, everyone?

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tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 9:48 am

SpinningHugo wrote:What happens if Corbyn stands (as it seems he will) and beats Eagle?

How could the PLP continue in its current form?

Think the only chance, and it's not going to happen,
& would probably just delay the inevitable,
& probably wouldn't win an election etc.
would be bring back Ed.
(& then start some deselections )

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 9:54 am

NonOxCol wrote:This is lovely, isn't it, everyone?

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They are having a go at Javid too https://politicalscrapbook.net/2016/06/ ... h-patriot/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 9:58 am

Double post

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 9:59 am

TobyLatimer wrote:
NonOxCol wrote:This is lovely, isn't it, everyone?

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
They are having a go at Javid too https://politicalscrapbook.net/2016/06/ ... h-patriot/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When do they realise that Johnson is 'Turkish'? Before or after he's betrayed them?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 10:06 am

Morning.
I had one brief experience of elections,standing for the "Who the hell are you ?"Party,in which I didn't know I was a candidate(some forgery was involved)until it was announced in an assembly of confused 16/18year olds.I addressed this mass rally with the speech of a lifetime,"Hello",short but I think it got all the points across as to the direction I would take in my role ahead.It would of helped of course if I had known what exactly I was being a candidate for and what the role was ,but you've got to think on your feet in the thrust of political engagement.

The campaign was short but judiciously applied,in consultation with my campaign manager,we thought it best to engage with the local snooker hall and have a few spirits to steady the nerves(hey we were both just old enough),after all all the hard work was done,it was up to the electorate now.

Memory is a bit faded with the passage of time and possibly partly a bit of drunken oblivion,which I think is excuseable given the stress of constant trying to find a snooker cue and remembering where you are,but I know I didn't win,which was a bit disappointing given the effort we put in.

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 10:12 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
yahyah wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:What happens if Corbyn stands (as it seems he will) and beats Eagle?

How could the PLP continue in its current form?
They should have thought of that. Finding an outstanding candidate would help. Not Eagle.
"We shouldn't be here" is not an answer though.

What happens?

Get your crystal ball out then Hugo.
Or wait and see.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 10:15 am

ephemerid wrote:On 13th.June, Angela Eagle said this -
"Jeremy is up and down the country, pursuing an intinerary that would make a 25-year-old tired, he has not stopped. We are doing our best, but f we are not reported, it is very difficult".

In her resignation letter, this -
"....under your leadership the case to remain in the EU was made with half-hearted ambivalence...."

So which is it, Angela? Did he work his socks off or did he shrug his shoulders and do nothing? Make your bloody mind up!

I used to have a lot of respect for Angela Eagle, even though I didn't always agree with her one some things. No more.
She was asked by her CLP to support Corbyn, and has gone against the wishes of her constituency party.

If she is one of the front-runners for a leadership bid, I hope people remember all this.

I do not think the PLP have a clue, frankly.

I don't particularly want to defend the PLP ( Caroline Flint made some clearly ridiculous comments about expectations of 70-80% of Labour supporters voting remain

) but is it true that Corbyn went on holiday for a couple of weeks in the middle of a very short campaign? I'm not sure I'm very impressed by that if it is true.

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 10:19 am

yahyah wrote:See you later. Weather appalling again today, cold, wet, dark.

We're ordering the materials for a DIY project.
We are rather old fashioned but we've planned it, have assessed all the pros and cons, risks, costed it and know exactly how we are going to do it.
Not in the spirit of the times are we ? Should have just stuck a pin in a list of materials, not checked the prices, made sure we'll be out when it is delivered and made it up as we went along. Then wondered why the thing fell down.

But I'm not bitter.

I thought this past week had seemed to have lasted for an age.
Took the dogs out this morning and believe it's October.
Am so tempted to bake an apple,blackberry and walnut cake to fit the autumnal mood.My kids don't really like it.
More for me.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 10:21 am

Rebecca wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
yahyah wrote: They should have thought of that. Finding an outstanding candidate would help. Not Eagle.
"We shouldn't be here" is not an answer though.

What happens?

Get your crystal ball out then Hugo.
Or wait and see.

My view? There would be a split in the party with 100+ MPs leaving to form a new party.

But I knew my view, I wanted that of others, particularly those who had in the past supported Corbyn, and to see if that was what they wanted.

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 10:22 am

Steve Bell is excellent today.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 10:25 am

HindleA wrote:Memory is a bit faded with the passage of time and possibly partly a bit of drunken oblivion...

Nigel, is that you?

PS. You sound like the ideal candidate to take on Corbyn. Certainly better than what's going to be on offer.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 10:28 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
Rebecca wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote: "We shouldn't be here" is not an answer though.

What happens?

Get your crystal ball out then Hugo.
Or wait and see.
My view? There would be a split in the party with 100+ MPs leaving to form a new party.

But I knew my view, I wanted that of others, particularly those who had in the past supported Corbyn, and to see if that was what they wanted.

Funding, infrastructure, etc etc. Don't you see this as a bit of a snag?

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 10:30 am

RobertSnozers wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:What happens if Corbyn stands (as it seems he will) and beats Eagle?

How could the PLP continue in its current form?
It can't. The Labour party is almost over.
The Parliamentary party is almost over. The rest of it is still here. Select new candidates and on we go.

172 of the plotters aren't going to split!

Maybe 50 at most probably more like 25-30. Most oof them will lose their seats at the GE and the rest will rally around. The boil will have been lanced because the PLP refused the members medicine.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 10:31 am

SpinningHugo wrote:My view? There would be a split in the party with 100+ MPs leaving to form a new party.

But I knew my view, I wanted that of others, particularly those who had in the past supported Corbyn, and to see if that was what they wanted.

May come as a bit of shock to you Hugo but all any of us ever wanted was for the PLP to unite and support each other, not to whip out and press the great big 'do not press' self destruct button.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 10:33 am

StephenDolan wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
Rebecca wrote:
Get your crystal ball out then Hugo.
Or wait and see.
My view? There would be a split in the party with 100+ MPs leaving to form a new party.

But I knew my view, I wanted that of others, particularly those who had in the past supported Corbyn, and to see if that was what they wanted.
Funding, infrastructure, etc etc. Don't you see this as a bit of a snag?

Of course. But that is where Labour would be at.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 10:34 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
Rebecca wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote: "We shouldn't be here" is not an answer though.

What happens?

Get your crystal ball out then Hugo.
Or wait and see.
My view? There would be a split in the party with 100+ MPs leaving to form a new party.

But I knew my view, I wanted that of others, particularly those who had in the past supported Corbyn, and to see if that was what they wanted.

I think what people here want is a reset to last Wednesday.

Since then there are no good options for Labour or the UK.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 10:34 am

JonnyT1234 wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:My view? There would be a split in the party with 100+ MPs leaving to form a new party.

But I knew my view, I wanted that of others, particularly those who had in the past supported Corbyn, and to see if that was what they wanted.
May come as a bit of shock to you Hugo but all any of us ever wanted was for the PLP to unite and support each other, not to whip out and press the great big 'do not press' self destruct button.

I am sure that is what you wanted. But that isn't where we are.

So, what happens?

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 10:34 am

If Andy Burnham stays put, then I would tend to Temulker's view as more likely, but if Andy Burnham resigns I would be inclined to view Spinning Hugo's prediction as quite plausible.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 10:35 am

Temulkar wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:
Willow904 wrote: It can't. The Labour party is almost over.
The Parliamentary party is almost over. The rest of it is still here. Select new candidates and on we go.
172 of the plotters aren't going to split!

Maybe 50 at most probably more like 25-30. Most oof them will lose their seats at the GE and the rest will rally around. The boil will have been lanced because the PLP refused the members medicine.

Thanks. I think that improbable in the extreme, but good to know your view.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 10:39 am

JonnyT1234 wrote:
HindleA wrote:Memory is a bit faded with the passage of time and possibly partly a bit of drunken oblivion...
Nigel, is that you?

PS. You sound like the ideal candidate to take on Corbyn. Certainly better than what's going to be on offer.

I was ahead of my time.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 10:40 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
Temulkar wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote: The Parliamentary party is almost over. The rest of it is still here. Select new candidates and on we go.
172 of the plotters aren't going to split!

Maybe 50 at most probably more like 25-30. Most oof them will lose their seats at the GE and the rest will rally around. The boil will have been lanced because the PLP refused the members medicine.
Thanks. I think that improbable in the extreme, but good to know your view.

S.D.P.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 10:42 am

Do you think the PLP would be okay with the current direction of travel of Labour if it wasn't him as leader? The criticism is pretty much based on he isn't a leader in the eyes of the public.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 10:43 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
JonnyT1234 wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:My view? There would be a split in the party with 100+ MPs leaving to form a new party.

But I knew my view, I wanted that of others, particularly those who had in the past supported Corbyn, and to see if that was what they wanted.
May come as a bit of shock to you Hugo but all any of us ever wanted was for the PLP to unite and support each other, not to whip out and press the great big 'do not press' self destruct button.
I am sure that is what you wanted. But that isn't where we are.

So, what happens?

Is this Groundhog Day? I told you earlier. The Labour Party is finished. The 'moderates' will hive off. Fail. The left will stay. Fail. Both sides need each other despite the right of the party singularly failing to realise this for the past 30 years. The PLP has just guaranteed Tory rule for the next 20 years and all because of their inability to see what's been staring them in the face since Blair.

The SNP and the Greens will do well out of this. And, sadly, so will the Lib Dems.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 10:48 am

Is it me or is anybody else of the same view?I totally object to be expected to vote the deemed way on an issue,a sheep to be herded.I happened to vote Remain it had naff all to do with knowing what Labour's position was or how much effort was put in/how clear or not that position was.I object to the supreme arrogance and the patronising"if they had known they would have voted the correct way.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 10:50 am

StephenDolan wrote:Do you think the PLP would be okay with the current direction of travel of Labour if it wasn't him as leader? The criticism is pretty much based on he isn't a leader in the eyes of the public.

i think he is hopelessly incompetent (see the VIce video), but that is not my personal main problem with JC as leader. if he could have competently played at being a soft left leader, I doubt we would have got to this point. The members of the shadow cabinet who have resigned are the ones prepared to give it a go of course. Like say Cooper, i would not have served at all.

fedup59 · Post by **fedup59** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 10:50 am

If this is an example of phase three of the let's destroy Corbyn and put the members back in their box plan Hugo it's not up to much. Having pressed self destruct it appears they are now expecting the membership to back the anybody but corbyn (presumably nobody else they don't approve will be allowed to stand) for the survivAl of the party cos obviously then the death on the PLP will be party members' fault.

Don't think it's going to work but that's just my view.

Apologies for telling you to shut up yesterday.

Morning all.

55DegreesNorth · Post by **55DegreesNorth** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 10:52 am

Watching Alastair Campbell on the ITV news last night (bluster, bullying, repeatedly shouting "He can't do the job", without any supporting evidence), made me take more seriously some of the motivations of the PLP.
Margaret Becketts onion-powered performance on R5 confirmed it for me.
The PLP are determined to discredit Corbyn before the Chilcott report comes out. They cannot afford to have the Party leader pointing war-crime accusations at Blairs legacy. And some were wondering who the puppet masters were.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 10:55 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:Do you think the PLP would be okay with the current direction of travel of Labour if it wasn't him as leader? The criticism is pretty much based on he isn't a leader in the eyes of the public.
i think he is hopelessly incompetent (see the VIce video), but that is not my personal main problem with JC as leader. if he could have competently played at being a soft left leader, I doubt we would have got to this point. The members of the shadow cabinet who have resigned are the ones prepared to give it a go of course. Like say Cooper, i would not have served at all.

SH yes I know your view of Corbyn the leader. What about the PLP and the direction of travel?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 10:58 am

Good mortfternoon.

That's the best I can come up with at the moment.

(And even that had a typo - now corrected.)

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 10:58 am

RobertSnozers wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
ephemerid wrote:On 13th.June, Angela Eagle said this -
"Jeremy is up and down the country, pursuing an intinerary that would make a 25-year-old tired, he has not stopped. We are doing our best, but f we are not reported, it is very difficult".

In her resignation letter, this -
"....under your leadership the case to remain in the EU was made with half-hearted ambivalence...."

So which is it, Angela? Did he work his socks off or did he shrug his shoulders and do nothing? Make your bloody mind up!

I used to have a lot of respect for Angela Eagle, even though I didn't always agree with her one some things. No more.
She was asked by her CLP to support Corbyn, and has gone against the wishes of her constituency party.

If she is one of the front-runners for a leadership bid, I hope people remember all this.

I do not think the PLP have a clue, frankly.
I don't particularly want to defend the PLP ( Caroline Flint made some clearly ridiculous comments about expectations of 70-80% of Labour supporters voting remain ) but is it true that Corbyn went on holiday for a couple of weeks in the middle of a very short campaign? I'm not sure I'm very impressed by that if it is true.
If he did, I'm not sure when it can have been, and must only have been for a couple of days. He was apparently planning to go on a week's holiday at the end of May, during the recess, but Labour MPs at the time demanded he didn't. Frankly I don't think it's unreasonable for someone in their 70s to have a few days break shortly after a punishing local and mayoral election campaign and before the referendum, but there seem to be those in the PLP who will insist that whatever he does it is will be wrong. It wasn't anywhere near two weeks unless he has invented time travel.

I'm not sure why more fire isn't being turned on Alan Johnson if the Labour Remain campaign was so terrible. Or those who were supposed to be supporting him, like one Hilary Benn. But then Jess Phillips keeps complaining that Corbyn is 'making it all about him'.

63% of Labour supporters voted in. That's a whole 7% less than LibDem supporters, nearly a third of whom also voted Leave.

Can you link to where you got the information from? I read he had booked to take 10 days at least and being asked not to and changing his mind doesn't really change the fact that he didn't see the short referendum campaign as a vital time to be hands on in a way I find it hard to imagine of Ed, for instance, if he had been in charge. This isn't about blaming him for the result, only a better Cameron performance would have made a difference imo, but simply about priorities and passions and whether or not Corbyn shares mine. I'm finding it very hard to support him right now because it's hard, after his being supportive of leaving so long, to believe he is unhappy about this result and I know everyone else is dealing in facts - we've come out and have to deal with it - but personally I think I belong in a party that is mostly unhappy about the result and I'm thinking maybe that's not the case of Corbyn and those who support him. Many here were unsure which way to vote and I see how he represents them but I have serious doubts he can represent me. This is not meant to be criticism. I'm just a long way from other Labour members on this I think.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 11:02 am

StephenDolan wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:Do you think the PLP would be okay with the current direction of travel of Labour if it wasn't him as leader? The criticism is pretty much based on he isn't a leader in the eyes of the public.
i think he is hopelessly incompetent (see the VIce video), but that is not my personal main problem with JC as leader. if he could have competently played at being a soft left leader, I doubt we would have got to this point. The members of the shadow cabinet who have resigned are the ones prepared to give it a go of course. Like say Cooper, i would not have served at all.
SH yes I know your view of Corbyn the leader. What about the PLP and the direction of travel?

Some of the things in substance have been positively fine. So, the economic programme Corbyn campaigned on for the leadership has been completely abandoned, and McDonnell's fiscal framework is just about ideal. I was with Benn on Syria, and think that the (now abandoned) Trident review was a farce. In the main however Labour has just drifted along, reacting to events. There is no direction of travel, save towards defeat.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 11:02 am

Good morning everyone.

I am now starting the day all over again with another hat on.
This hat is the heavy one with the ermine round the bottom and thumping great diamonds on it.

Questions, questions.

Rinse, repeat.

Handy Tip No.1 - If a person wants to know what other posters think, the thing to do is for that person to read the posts the other posters make.
There are clues available should one have a little comprehension.

Handy Tip No.2 - If a person claims to want to know what other posters think, but is actually engaging in eliciting opinion which will then be shot down in the most patronising fashion possible, that person should stop.

I am Her Majesty the Queen, that's my edict.

Baiting to cease forthwith, or I'll set the corgis on you.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 11:03 am

Left Unity in Wigan -they are insisting the source is credible and given the nature of the information, well...

"OH ! WHAT A TANGLED WEB WE WEAVE WHEN FIRST WE PRACTICE TO DECEIVE".

It now emerges that Hilary Benn and Angela Eagle have been secretly briefing against Jeremy Corbyn for the last 9 months. They have constantly fed information to Laura Kuenssberg and the Murdoch press about pending coups and dissatisfaction in the Parliamentary Party. Apparently, they were planning to move against him on several occasions and 'chickened out'.

The debate on the RAF bombing intervention on Syria on the 2.12.15 was to be the preliminary opportunity for Benn to strike by speaking out against the Labour line (which he did to much Tory applause). This was to be followed up by a no confidence motion after the loss of the Oldham by-election which was confidently predicted by the Murdoch press. The plot fell apart when the Oldham by-election was won by Labour, with UKIP in second place and the Tories beaten into third.

Their next attempt was when Shadow Foreign Minister, Stephen Doughty, resigned on air during the BBC's Daily Politics programme on 7.1.16, just before Prime Ministers Questions. Kuenssberg had been briefed by the plotters beforehand and she had fed this information to David Cameron who announced it during PM's Questions to the surprise of the Labour benches. This plot to usurp Jeremy also fell apart.

All of Laura Kuenssberg's reports which began with 'a senior Labour spokesman told me....etc.' came from the offices of Benn and Eagle.

Kuenssberg was also informed about the present debacle. The conspirators had received news that Corbyn would suggest the impeachment of Tony Blair if the soon to be published Chilcott report on the Iraq war showed any basis of 'war crimes'. The conspirators decided they had to pre-empt this attack on Blair. It was agreed that Benn would initiate the attack on Corbyn. He awoke Corbyn in the early hours of Sunday morning 26.6.16 with a phone call to inform him of his intention to attack him publicly with a statement of his lack of confidence in his leadership. Corbyn had no option but to remove him from post.

The plan was then to organise a series of resignations with one being announced roughly every 2 hours to give the impression of a growing revolt. This was designed to keep it in the public eye and they would hopefully then encourage others not involved in the plot to join the bandwagon if they thought the ship was sinking.

Initially there were 10 Shadow cabinet members recruited, and Eagles was to be the last one to declare in order to separate any association between Benn and herself. She would make a tearful, on-line resignation speech underlining Jeremy's honesty and goodness but saying he had no leadership skills.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 11:05 am

Corbyn camp source ramming up the rhetoric: Angela Eagle is the lesser of two Eagles and will get decimated in any leadership race.
— Darren McCaffrey (@DMcCaffreySKY) June 29, 2016

Wherever you may stand in this bun fight, that is one hell of a way to destroy a candidate before they've even got going. Ouch.

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 11:08 am

Good morning

Tempers cooled (I hope) after yesterday, and no backtracking over that ground.

I hereby formally accept my position as Royal Truth Ferreter and humbly beseech our dear Queen Ephie for consent to extending my remit to open a People's Chipmunkery.

PS: I would also like to apply for the position of High Executioner with special responsibility for R****t M*****h.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 11:09 am

28m ago 10:38

Jeremy Corbyn may have lost the support of his parliamentary party but, according to a press notice from his supporters, he still holds Facebook and Twitter. (Politics Live, Guardian)

That will cheer me up as the results come in on election night.

Edited to be less oblique -

LABOUR HOLD: Facebook and Twitter

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 11:11 am

As far as plotters go Eagle and Benn really arent brutus or cassius, more bungle and zippy.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 11:13 am

Willow904 wrote: he didn't see the short referendum campaign as a vital time to be hands on in a way I find it hard to imagine of Ed, for instance, if he had been in charge.

The whole lot of them are just about to go off for 10 weeks aren't they? Or is it more?
Rather more vital time to be hands on, imo.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 11:23 am

Hugo calls Corbyn incompetent. May well be true in some respects. In fact, very probably is because who isn't? However these are indisputable: he and his team reversed in spades a decades long decline in Labour Party membership by the simple and stupidly obvious act of giving people an actual choice during an election. He and his team completely out manoeuvred and out communicated the PLP machine to not just beat his opponents but trounce them. Despite being constantly knifed in the back by his own side, a full frontal assault that would be libellous in any other sphere from the other side, he and his team have not lost a single election of any significance in the past 9 months with the possible exception of Scotland during the locals. Which practically everyone agrees was not remotely the fault of Corbyn anyway.

Corbyn may be incompetent. But he and his team clearly has SOMETHING that helps. He has high competence in some spheres. All that was needed from the PLP - and him too - was to amplify his strengths and mitigate his weaknesses. That was all that was needed. Next election would have been close but it would have been winnable. But, fuck, no we couldn't have any of that could we. Because he's 'hard' left.

And if we're going to be critical of Corbyn's competence or lack thereof, what the hell are we to think of a bunch of people who have been scheming and plotting for 9 months and the only outcome of all their cunning plans is the holing of their own rickety ship in the middle of a shit storm of the most devastating nature for everybody else in the country who are crying out for lifeboats and buoys to save them.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 11:24 am

RobertSnozers wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
StephenDolan wrote: SH yes I know your view of Corbyn the leader. What about the PLP and the direction of travel?
Some of the things in substance have been positively fine. So, the economic programme Corbyn campaigned on for the leadership has been completely abandoned, and McDonnell's fiscal framework is just about ideal. I was with Benn on Syria, and think that the (now abandoned) Trident review was a farce. In the main however Labour has just drifted along, reacting to events. There is no direction of travel, save towards defeat.
Don't you think one reason for that is because the leadership has had be more or less constantly in firefighting mode because of attacks from within and the steady drip of media briefings?

I don't know how Corbyn was supposed to move forward when he was rubgy tackled to the ground on a weekly basis.

Primarily? No. It was hopeless incompetence, and the leader ridiculously unsuited to his role. The Vice video is brilliantly funny. A kind of Bennite Alan Partridge.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 11:26 am

What does Hodges know? Someone on his timeline suggesting Milne & Watson may be behind the (chicken) coup.

(((Dan Hodges)))Verified account
‏@DPJHodges
Incredibly, I'm actually starting to feel sorry for Jeremy Corbyn. He's been used

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 11:26 am

Just caught up and some great posts. Am I correct in thinking the latest polling, pre-brexit, showed lab and con neck and neck?

And let's be nice to each other and remember that far more unites us than divides us.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 11:28 am

On the other hand I read that Alaistair Campbell might be the ringleader. Can't see Milne working under cover with Campbell

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 11:32 am

StephenDolan wrote:Do you think the PLP would be okay with the current direction of travel of Labour if it wasn't him as leader? The criticism is pretty much based on he isn't a leader in the eyes of the public.

Some think that.

Some are viscerally opposed to Labour being anything but a vehicle for unreconstructed Blairism.

Starting to think the latter group have no future within the party, even if Corbyn goes soon.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 11:33 am

The MPs are intelligent. They've heard Corbyn reference his mandate on many occasions. Why did they expect him to fall on their sword?

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 11:34 am

Pessimistic as it is, I am coming round to the position that the only thing that can be done is to let this thing with the Labour Party go through to its end. There is a poison in the party, wherever you stand, and bodging together some solution whereby it can all be swept under the carpet and a false camaraderie be shown will do nobody any good. What's been created will only fester. Sooner or later, it's got to burst and be allowed to reach a conclusion. That this is the wrongest of wrong times for this to happen is a tragedy that will affect everyone, but sometimes you simply have to let the worst happen in order to have somewhere from which to start to build again.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 11:36 am

Anyway, today's PMQs will be grimly fascinating. I might even watch myself in a rubber-necking sort of way.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 29 Jun, 2016 11:36 am

Pat Glass has resigned.