Monday 4th July 2016

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 4:46 pm

NonOxCol wrote:Anyone surprised, go the back of the class and stand with Dreda Say Mitchell:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... back-state" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Add the RMT and FBU clowns to the list. I had one of the FBU top brass on Twitter. When I said Lexitets had helped racist scum, he tweeted at me to "stop snivelling". He also was incredibly snarky abut the pro EU demo.

He can have a referendum on public sector strike laws if he's that keen on them.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 4:46 pm

Apologies to Tubby and others, but I just don't see how Labour could get away with being seen to "defy the will of the people".

(unless you are happy with a serious attempt to lose most of their seats outside the big cities, I guess)

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 4:48 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/nig ... 19121.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nigel Farage was the frontman for the biggest Establishment stitch-up in a generation
There are serious problems in this country, and pretending they're all due to immigration is extremely convenient for the political elite who impose austerity

Quite

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 4:55 pm

Nice to see you back Tubby.

I understand the point you make Anatoly. But when it becomes apparent, who knows exactly when, that Brexit is a disaster, people may ask Labour 'why didn't you try and stop it ?'.

To me, it is when Labour go limp and accept the status quo we are in trouble.
We never managed to change the narrative about 'Labour spent too much' for example.

Someone needs to fight for the 48%. Who will ? I do not want to have to vote Lib Dem or Plaid.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 5:00 pm

There was no vote for getting out as quickly as possible. Gove and Johnson said the opposite.

When you start the process is one of the few bits of leverage we have. It isn't to be chucked away in a half arsed attempt to sieze the political agenda.

A good, populist line at the moment is going after the government to guarantee all the jobs already at risk, not least in Brexit Hull. Does anyone think Siemens are waiting for Article 50?

Also been very surprised to see McDonnell saying freedom of movementwill come to an end. Not what the other 27 are saying. He tweeted out he was just reflecting "formal reality". It isn't.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 5:01 pm

For a start, Parliament must surely debate the petition for a second referendum over four million people have signed ?

Maybe Labour showing a little backbone then would help.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 5:05 pm

McDonnell later rowed back on that "end free movement" stuff I think.

Yes, I understand that yahyah (I was also very much against Brexit, after all) but I refer to my comment in the weekend thread, the job of "standing up for the 48%" is best done by a non-party (or, if you prefer, cross-party) *movement*. Labour has always been much worse at creating plausibly deniable "outriders" than the Tories have been.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 5:05 pm

"Standard Life Investments has suspended all trading in its UK Real Estate Fund after an increase in redemption requests following Brexit"

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 5:07 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Apologies to Tubby and others, but I just don't see how Labour could get away with being seen to "defy the will of the people".

(unless you are happy with a serious attempt to lose most of their seats outside the big cities, I guess)

You're likely right.
I'm frightened by Tory government, current government, Her Majesty's Government, where UK sovereign authority resides.
Tory government are seemingly unable to function, letting country and people flounder.
They're sending out YouGov approved 'least objectionable Tory MPs' to appear on talk shows.
Current affairs are untenable.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 5:08 pm

HindleA wrote:"Standard Life Investments has suspended all trading in its UK Real Estate Fund after an increase in redemption requests following Brexit"

Holy cow

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 5:09 pm

ephemerid wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Angela Eagle saying she *will* challenge Corbyn for the leadership if he doesn't step down, and yes she really means it this time. Yes she does!

I actually don't mind her, but this past week has done her few favours.
Yawn.

He has said, repeatedly, that he will not step down. He has said, repeatedly, that he respects the democratic decision of the members.

So unless he performs a reverse ferret of gargantuan proportions, he will not step down. As he said. A lot.

Maybe she's hoping he'll change his mind. Even though he said, a lot, repeatedly, that he won't.

Note to Angela - HE WON'T.

Now stand. Or something. Whatever.
If this is what we can expect in terms of decisiveness from her, how can she lead a party?
Just get on with it. Or not. Please.

Angie Baby, you're a special lady
Living in a world of make-believe
Well, maybe

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 5:18 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Apologies to Tubby and others, but I just don't see how Labour could get away with being seen to "defy the will of the people".

(unless you are happy with a serious attempt to lose most of their seats outside the big cities, I guess)

I agree it's very tough, and requires immense skill. In political terms though, will eg Wigan throw out Labour in the widely predicted snap election over stalling Brexit? Gove wasn't worried about taking 4 years to invoke Article 50.

Long term, I think we'll get a Norway deal plus a stronger "brake". Is that what people voted for?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 5:21 pm

No, many of them voted for a spending bonanza on the NHS and other public services - and of course to "throw the darkies out".

But that doesn't matter, the best thing Labour can do right now IMO is leave the Tories to clear up their own Brexit mess.

Let *them* be the ones who have to tell the people who voted for the above that these things won't actually happen.....

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 5:24 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:No, many of them voted for a spending bonanza on the NHS and other public services - and of course to "throw the darkies out".

But that doesn't matter, the best thing Labour can do right now IMO is leave the Tories to clear up their own Brexit mess.

Let *them* be the ones who have to tell the people who voted for the above that these things won't actually happen.....

(my emphasis)

I agree.
Government aren't clearing up their Brexit mess and show no signs of doing so in the future.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 5:47 pm

Peston says no leadership challenge until Friday ''at the earliest''.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 5:52 pm

He didn't say which Friday of course.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 5:53 pm

If true, almost laughable.

And several of these people cite "competence" as a key reason why JC has to stand down??

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 5:54 pm

A lot of unachievable claims were made for brexit,
i was thinkingb maybe there's some milage in labour supporting expectation of them being met,
pointing out when they're not,
then pushing for acceptable outcome.
Although think they should avoid demanding fast invocation of article 50, instead call for clear timetable, with clear aims, then possibly another vote once a plan emerges.
Unfortunately I'm not sure I currently trust any politician to be able to do this.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 6:00 pm

I suspect that most folk here, including sadly absent Brexiters like RR2, would actually like more or less the same outcome from this mess (i.e. a Europe and a World where we cooperate to achieve great things for all).

We can all agree that there is so simple, clear way of achieving that (understatement of the year!). If follows that none of us can possibly know what the best way to get there is. We need to be patient with each other and our fellow citizens. Accommodate different views and not lose sight of our common goal.

Sorry if this sounds trite but it is heartfelt

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 6:05 pm

It would be useful if RR came back and calmed some of our nerves a bit by explaining why she and her husband had belief in Brexit. And whether they still do, of course.

I am beginning to realise I am not a natural Corbyn supporter. It was always a clue when those on the further left of the party seemed to be banging the Brexit drum. That should have been a warning.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 6:05 pm

Rowson, sounding more sad than angry really.
https://martinrowson.wordpress.com/2016 ... july-2016/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

concludes

our political elites are either fighting each other like bald men over a comb or have simply, like Cameron, Johnson and Farage, run away.
But before they fucked off, maybe these two Etonians and the failed City broker should have shared another truth with all those people – almost all of whom are good, and kind, and even beautiful – who said they wanted their country back. As political representatives of the bankers and the landowners and the feudal aristocracy and the media moguls and the multinational corporations, our bankrupt, useless “leaders” should have asked the people why on earth they imagined the country belonged to them in the first place. Instead, naturally, they’ve left us quite alone. And wholly terrified.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 6:06 pm

But then so were Field and Gisela Stuart. Most perplexing. It's left me with a real sense of Labour not being a party I feel at home with anymore. That's after forty three years of identifying with, and supporting, it.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 6:08 pm

Hello again Tubby - glad to see you back

I would just like to talk about the Brexit positioning and try not to make it about Corbyn...but talk about my views

I have some assumptions that I use to base my musings

Firstly, there will be no snap election - I haven't see any indication the Tories are prepared to do this
Secondly, I work on the assumption that we will Leave eventually and invoke A50. I know there are a lot of people talking about a way to get around this but I do not think that is acceptable either to the country at large or Europe.
I do not think there will be a major measurable economic effect convincing enough to cause a change of mind until A50 is invoked (at that point there will be a chaotic response) - the old chicken and egg

There would need to be a material change to cause the referendum vote to be ignorable and as I do not think there will be an election I cannot see what this is - legal challenge, economic collapse, GR, 2nd referendum

These are my assumptions and you can argue that they are wrong....no problem

In my world therefore there is no benefit in delaying A50 significantly as waiting will only delay the inevitable. The other side is that even now my colleagues here on the continent are getting a bit annoyed and don't understand why we made all this noise, had a referendum, been going round say Leave means Leave, organising yet more get outs and then when the vote is as it is still don't bugger off and still go around acting as if we are owed a favour

Patience is wearing thin amongst the people I know...and I assume the EU politicians are not going to wait until 2020 for us to get our backsides in gear

As I stated yesterday the 2 year timetable for Exit is very short and that there is little chance of having all things agreed, especially trade by then. There may be a need for an extension and us unnecessary time now will come back and bite us if we have to ask for an extension - unanimity required

It is also worth remembering that it was Cameron who called this election, who said that A50 would be invoked immediately and then showed his true colours by walking away and not doing what he said he would do......the Tories should be reminded continuously about this farce

And on the 48% - if the EU mattered so much then why did a significant portion of that vote Tory in the last election with that risk being there? Perhaps not believing the Tories would be a good place to start

Yahyah, on your 'who to vote for' point - I don't think you will get the chance to make that decision as it will not be needed until 2020 in my view - a lot will have changed before then. Also, I think it would be very risky for Labour to come out with a Lub Dem type Remain message. Firstly, it has no beneficial effect as there will not be an election until 2020....and it sets Labour against the people. It will also crate the space for a non-Farage UKIP to sell an anti-austerity anti-EU position that may very well appeal

I think Labour should just let the Tories deal with this and only make a lot of noise if there is any need to....the Tories have to elect a PM and then the pressure will be on to make some decisions on what the future looks like.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 6:19 pm

There's a new ITV Wales political barometer poll out later today.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 6:23 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:If true, almost laughable.

And several of these people cite "competence" as a key reason why JC has to stand down??

Does it mean that? Or does it mean Corbyn's going to announce something after Chilcot?

The opponents have run stuff. They've done shadow briefs for years and had to vote for stuff they didn't like. They had to- shock- appear with Amber Rudd to challenge rubbish that Boris Johnson was talking.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 6:27 pm

Silly, I don't think it's for sure we're heading out. Formally, probably we are but it's possible we could leave and then be offered a way back in.

Nice to see you again.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 6:29 pm

gilsey wrote:Rowson, sounding more sad than angry really.
https://martinrowson.wordpress.com/2016 ... july-2016/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

concludes
our political elites are either fighting each other like bald men over a comb or have simply, like Cameron, Johnson and Farage, run away.
But before they fucked off, maybe these two Etonians and the failed City broker should have shared another truth with all those people – almost all of whom are good, and kind, and even beautiful – who said they wanted their country back. As political representatives of the bankers and the landowners and the feudal aristocracy and the media moguls and the multinational corporations, our bankrupt, useless “leaders” should have asked the people why on earth they imagined the country belonged to them in the first place. Instead, naturally, they’ve left us quite alone. And wholly terrified.

Yep, I thought so.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 6:43 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Silly, I don't think it's for sure we're heading out. Formally, probably we are but it's possible we could leave and then be offered a way back in.

Nice to see you again.

And a second, more personal, nice to see you, to see you, nice!

It could be there is some way around it during the negotiation but we need to be careful not to push it too much with A50 and if you look at the motley crew who would be around the negotiation

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 6:43 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/bre ... 19501.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The manageress of a pub in Consett, just north of Durham city, said that the “overwhelming” bar-room opinion pre-referendum was “We want to be British again”. After the vote, she said, that the overwhelming opinion was “Oh bugger. We made a mistake. They (the Brexiteers) lied to us.”

Quite Irritating

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 6:43 pm

This will not be in the public domain until tomorrow or Wednesday, so I won't make further comment.

My uncle works for a quoted company which is to mothball two plants as a direct result of Brexit.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 6:44 pm

Too late now, mes amis. Or is it? In Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland, the Red Queen says: “First the verdict and then the trial.” In Britain, it seemed, we had the vote and then we had the debate. For Sunderland, read Wonderland.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 6:45 pm

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 6:58 pm

http://www.bridgwatermercury.co.uk/news/14597659.-/
THE number of hate crimes reported in Avon and Somerset following the EU Referendum has increased by 150 per cent.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 7:35 pm

Oh dear...

Emily Ashton ‏@elashton 8m8 minutes ago
Not getting rave reviews of Andrea Leadsom at 1922. "Car crash" says one MP. "Fucking shambles" says another.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 7:42 pm

Nick Gibb earlier at Edu questions.

May I correct the hon. Lady? Her predecessor was not the hon. Member for Manchester Central (Lucy Powell); it was the hon. Member for North West Durham (Pat Glass), and I regret that she felt it necessary to resign. The academies programme is very successful, even without taking the powers that we had suggested. The programme is moving at pace—there were 200 academy conversions last month—and sponsored academies are improving faster under this arrangement. I hope that the hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Angela Rayner) will support a programme that began under the Labour party, although it began under a new Labour Government, not this old Labour Opposition.

Were there indeed?

A bit difficult to check as the usual monthly updated list of academies is a little late in being published - as in it didn't appear last month.

I'd be very surprised if it was that high - the spike happens as you might expect at either the schools old year end (1st April start) or their new one (1st Sept start) - a number that high would be very unusual.

Wouldn't be at all surprised if he's being slightly economical with the truth.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 7:45 pm

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/07/la ... rns-corbyn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

labour-coup-enters-last-throw-dice-tom-watson-turns-corbyn

Isabel Hardman

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 7:48 pm

"Neil Kinnock also gave a rousing, booming speech to the meeting which received plenty of cheers from MPs."

No more the Welsh Windbag for the establishment it seems.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 8:12 pm

Brexit is “breathtakingly stupid,”

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 8:22 pm

HindleA wrote:"Standard Life Investments has suspended all trading in its UK Real Estate Fund after an increase in redemption requests following Brexit"

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ithdrawals" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 8:27 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 19541.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
someone needs to stop this whole farce now
would be nice if Labour were on it

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 8:28 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote: ...As I stated yesterday the 2 year timetable for Exit is very short and that there is little chance of having all things agreed, especially trade by then. There may be a need for an extension and us unnecessary time now will come back and bite us if we have to ask for an extension - unanimity required...

From the Indy:

Even after the issue of the triggering of Article 50 is resolved, the British government must then decide its negotiating position, and decide what sort of relationship they want with the EU in the future. Would they still want access to the single market? What status would they want for the EU citizens currently employed in Britain, and Britons working elsewhere in Europe? What sort of trade deals would they wish to pursue? These proposals would then be put to the other 27 EU member states.

It is a process which European Council President Donald Tusk has warned could take up to seven years, and it is likely to be a bitter fight.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 00436.html

So it appears there's a good chance of an election somewhere in the middle of negotiations

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 8:40 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/07/la ... rns-corbyn

labour-coup-enters-last-throw-dice-tom-watson-turns-corbyn

Isabel Hardman

Fine leadership behind this coup. Haven't been this impressed since David Miliband.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 8:40 pm

Eric_WLothian wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote: ...As I stated yesterday the 2 year timetable for Exit is very short and that there is little chance of having all things agreed, especially trade by then. There may be a need for an extension and us unnecessary time now will come back and bite us if we have to ask for an extension - unanimity required...
From the Indy:
Even after the issue of the triggering of Article 50 is resolved, the British government must then decide its negotiating position, and decide what sort of relationship they want with the EU in the future. Would they still want access to the single market? What status would they want for the EU citizens currently employed in Britain, and Britons working elsewhere in Europe? What sort of trade deals would they wish to pursue? These proposals would then be put to the other 27 EU member states.

It is a process which European Council President Donald Tusk has warned could take up to seven years, and it is likely to be a bitter fight.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 00436.html
So it appears there's a good chance of an election somewhere in the middle of negotiations

If, and it a big if on the current state of affairs, the best guess timetable (according to the Vivil Service briefing) would be

2017 A50 and start of Exit negotiation
2019 Exit negotiations complete and start of trade negotiations
2022 EU/UK Trade deal complete (difficult to judge but the more we try to get away from the standard Single Market model the longer)
2027 Global trade deals complete

Looks like 2 elections will be held in this timetable

The EU Commissioner for Trade stated clearly that the EU is forbidden to discuss trade deals with its own members and individual members cannot discuss trade deals with other countries. This would in essence mean us moving to WTO in 2019 but I have a feeling it will not be as clear cut as that....clearly the more we try to get off them the more likely it is there will be the risk of no deal

There is also the fact the EU will develop and evolve over time....I would not be surprised to see a tweaking of free movement of people but that will take time to negotiate and we will not be party to that

This is a little bit conjecture as A50 has never been used before but the information seems to be pretty consistent (although totally ignored by the media.....no-one has asked this or pointed it out to the Leave spokesmen) and so there is no reason to doubt it being about right

Whichever way you look at it there is a shambles in the making...and Leadsom, Gove, May, Duncan-Smith, Letwin and the rest of those incompetent buffoons don't fill one full of confidence

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 8:50 pm

Given the fact that the guys calling for this - Johnson and Farage - have run away from actually handling it, surely this casts real doubt on the feasibility of the thing? At the end of the day, this referendum offered an undoable option - doing it won't make it right.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 8:54 pm

StephenDolan wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/07/la ... rns-corbyn

labour-coup-enters-last-throw-dice-tom-watson-turns-corbyn

Isabel Hardman
Fine leadership behind this coup. Haven't been this impressed since David Miliband.

Doesn't matter, provided Corbyn goes. Tmrw's chip wrappers if so.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 8:59 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/07/la ... rns-corbyn

labour-coup-enters-last-throw-dice-tom-watson-turns-corbyn

Isabel Hardman
Fine leadership behind this coup. Haven't been this impressed since David Miliband.
Doesn't matter, provided Corbyn goes. Tmrw's chip wrappers if so.

But surely Corbyn going will solve nothing on its own Tubby? There absolutely needs to be some accommodation between the factions IMO.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 8:59 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/07/la ... rns-corbyn

labour-coup-enters-last-throw-dice-tom-watson-turns-corbyn

Isabel Hardman
Fine leadership behind this coup. Haven't been this impressed since David Miliband.
Doesn't matter, provided Corbyn goes. Tmrw's chip wrappers if so.

I disagree, people won't forget how rubbish this has been.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 9:02 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
StephenDolan wrote: Fine leadership behind this coup. Haven't been this impressed since David Miliband.
Doesn't matter, provided Corbyn goes. Tmrw's chip wrappers if so.
I disagree, people won't forget how rubbish this has been.

I certainly won't. Other viewpoints are available

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 9:09 pm

Nick Gibb in proving himself once again to be a clueless numpty.

The 'free market' will ensure teachers receive high salaries, says Nick Gibb

https://www.tes.com/news/school-news/br ... -nick-gibb

Mr Gibb replied: “It’s odd to hear people complaining that we are going to cut teacher salaries and at the same time stating there is a shortage of teachers and that it is difficult to recruit teachers. The free market will ensure the salaries…We are living in a strong economy and we have to compete for graduates with companies up and down the country. And that is what will secure high salaries for the teaching profession.”

Yes, yes, because schools have oodles of cash right now to throw at graduates...oh...wait...

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 9:10 pm

It'll have to be accommodation, agree. No way Umunna takes over, or whoever. Owen Smith is the best choice and seems to be letting Eagle take the flak for being disloyal. Or maybe Kier Starmer.

Nobody outside the Tory constituency parties cared about Mrs Thatcher 5 minutes afterwards.