Wednesday 6th July 2016

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 2:10 pm

Caught Campbell on WATO. He tried hard but the spin was blatantly obvious, even under the soft questioning of Martha Kearney.

I'm only up to 120 in the summary. A long way to go later.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 2:20 pm

George Eaton Verified account 
‏@georgeeaton

Corbyn's calm Chilcot statement probably his best moment in the House.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 2:26 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
yahyah wrote:I suppose today kyboshes Angela Eagle's chances ?
Owen Smith became an MP in 2010.
I'd have thought that today wouldn't have mattered so much if she'd played a blinder over the last fortnight. She wasn't in the government in 2003, and enough backbench Labour MPs voted for military action and subsequently regretted it. But now she's made a laughing stock of herself and voted for war in 2003. My verdict: toast.

I'm dismayed by the choices she's made recently. I don't understand her actions. I've met Angela Eagle. I admire her good qualities
and work. Feuding within Labour must end. It's not good for people and country. It's impossible to put an end to bad Tory leadership without unity.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 2:27 pm

On a lighter note.....

Our Brian (a.k.a. Prince Charles) has sent a message to the Welsh football squad saying how proud he is.

The Heath Hospital in Cardiff has trebled its' internet provision for this evening so that patients can watch the game.

In New York, there's a little boy who is severely autistic and rarely communicates - but gets very excited when Wales plays football.
His mother Tweeted this, and the lad is now an honorary member of the supporters' club. There's lovely, as we say in Wales....

Tennis fans - is it me, or is John Invalid absolutely useless at tennis commentary? He's driving me bananas.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 2:37 pm

Éoin ‏@LabourEoin · 14h14 hours ago

55 Constituency Labour Parties have now held votes on Jeremy Corbyn. 73% passed motions of full confidence in Corbyn

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 2:58 pm

Did I mishear or did Tony Blair just ask (effectively) the Chilcot enquiry if they had any better ideas (re post-war Iraq)?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 3:01 pm

"...report also sheds fresh light on the private discussions between Blair and the US president, George W Bush, in the run-up to war.
The report says that after the 9/11 attacks Blair urged Bush “not to take hasty action on Iraq”. The UK’s formal policy was to contain
Saddam’s regime."

It could and should have continued being the UK's policy.

"But by the time the two leaders met in April 2002 at Bush’s ranch in Crawford, Texas, the UK’s thinking had undergone “a profound change”.
The joint intelligence committee had concluded that Saddam could not be removed “without an invasion”, with the government saying Iraq
was a threat “that had to be dealt with”.

As part of his remit, Chilcot also sets out what lessons can be learned.

He says that Blair “overestimated his ability to influence US decisions on Iraq. The UK’s relationship with the US has proved
strong enough over time to bear the weight of honest disagreement. It does not require unconditional support where our
interest or judgments differ.”

(my emphasis)

Tragedy Blair didn't keep the UK out of it - he had the personality to do it. Chilcot's assessment regarding the feasibility of the UK
remaining out of military conflict without damaging UK relations with the US makes Blair's decision an unmitigated tragedy.

Blair couldn't stop Bush using the US military for war with Iraq with 9/11 as the unrelated excuse to do so and that's a failing of US
bloody-mindedness, not a failing of the UK. Blair did great wrong committing the UK to war.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... r-iraq-war" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 3:02 pm

PorFavor wrote:Did I mishear or did Tony Blair just ask (effectively) the Chilcot enquiry if they had any better ideas (re post-war Iraq?

That's what he said. I missed that part of the Chilcot remit. Blair's lack of self awareness is staggering.

It's like seeing an 80s boy, now middle aged man, walking into a new bar full of the young crowd. Times have changed.

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 3:21 pm

StephenDolan wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Did I mishear or did Tony Blair just ask (effectively) the Chilcot enquiry if they had any better ideas (re post-war Iraq?
That's what he said. I missed that part of the Chilcot remit. Blair's lack of self awareness is staggering.

It's like seeing an 80s boy, now middle aged man, walking into a new bar full of the young crowd. Times have changed.

It's the age-old pathetic fallacy (as opposed to Pathetic Fallacy) that old men imagine that they are invaluable forever. I might almost be sympathetic but, ah hell, I'm not.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 3:36 pm

Sunny Hundal – ‏@sunny_hundal

This was Blair's chance to accept he made mistakes, claw back sympathy. Instead he's spent 50 min telling us we're too stupid to understand

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 3:37 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Éoin ‏@LabourEoin · 14h14 hours ago

55 Constituency Labour Parties have now held votes on Jeremy Corbyn. 73% passed motions of full confidence in Corbyn

Did any pass any plans to overcome 80% of MPs having no confidence at all? Or was the plan to say mandate a lot?

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 3:38 pm

StephenDolan wrote:Sunny Hundal – ‏@sunny_hundal

This was Blair's chance to accept he made mistakes, claw back sympathy. Instead he's spent 50 min telling us we're too stupid to understand

Sometimes the world is just too predictable.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 3:39 pm

mbc1955 wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Did I mishear or did Tony Blair just ask (effectively) the Chilcot enquiry if they had any better ideas (re post-war Iraq?
That's what he said. I missed that part of the Chilcot remit. Blair's lack of self awareness is staggering.

It's like seeing an 80s boy, now middle aged man, walking into a new bar full of the young crowd. Times have changed.
It's the age-old pathetic fallacy (as opposed to Pathetic Fallacy) that old men imagine that they are invaluable forever. I might almost be sympathetic but, ah hell, I'm not.

Don't forget infallible and invincible.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 3:41 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Éoin ‏@LabourEoin · 14h14 hours ago

55 Constituency Labour Parties have now held votes on Jeremy Corbyn. 73% passed motions of full confidence in Corbyn
Did any pass any plans to overcome 80% of MPs having no confidence at all? Or was the plan to say mandate a lot?

It was on Twitter so too few words to say. Cooking a meal, so haven't had a chance to check anywhere else.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 3:42 pm

citizenJA wrote:
"...report also sheds fresh light on the private discussions between Blair and the US president, George W Bush, in the run-up to war.
The report says that after the 9/11 attacks Blair urged Bush “not to take hasty action on Iraq”. The UK’s formal policy was to contain
Saddam’s regime."
It could and should have continued being the UK's policy.
"But by the time the two leaders met in April 2002 at Bush’s ranch in Crawford, Texas, the UK’s thinking had undergone “a profound change”.
The joint intelligence committee had concluded that Saddam could not be removed “without an invasion”, with the government saying Iraq
was a threat “that had to be dealt with”.

As part of his remit, Chilcot also sets out what lessons can be learned.

He says that Blair “overestimated his ability to influence US decisions on Iraq. The UK’s relationship with the US has proved
strong enough over time to bear the weight of honest disagreement. It does not require unconditional support where our
interest or judgments differ.”
(my emphasis)

Tragedy Blair didn't keep the UK out of it - he had the personality to do it. Chilcot's assessment regarding the feasibility of the UK
remaining out of military conflict without damaging UK relations with the US makes Blair's decision an unmitigated tragedy.

Blair couldn't stop Bush using the US military for war with Iraq with 9/11 as the unrelated excuse to do so and that's a failing of US
bloody-mindedness, not a failing of the UK. Blair did great wrong committing the UK to war.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... r-iraq-war" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This bit didn't make much sense to me

"He says that Blair “overestimated his ability to influence US decisions on Iraq."

Since Blair was thoroughly committed from very early on, he was a partner of Bush, full stop, so is Chilcot saying that Blair was exaggerating his importance ? But where ?

In truth the very deep anger at the French opposition at the UN shows how important the British solidarity was, and we can only imagine what would have happened without it .

Back to gardening

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 3:51 pm

StephenDolan wrote:Sunny Hundal – ‏@sunny_hundal

This was Blair's chance to accept he made mistakes, claw back sympathy. Instead he's spent 50 min telling us we're too stupid to understand

No wonder Hugo loves Blair so much.

Edit: removed spurious quote code

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 3:52 pm

Junior Doctor's Contract will be imposed.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... or-doctors" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 3:57 pm

Christ alive, imagine if the Guardian opens comments on this:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... md-dossier" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 3:58 pm

Calling Blair the world's worst terrorist is just daft. He's a lot of things but that is just over the top.

There's also something bizarre about people calling him a murderous psychopath and then sociopathically wishing him a nasty death, or wanting him to commit suicide, as some have expressed today on Cif.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 4:07 pm

Jeremy for PM
‏@jeremyforlabour
Tony Blair is such a coward he skipped the Chilcot meeting this morning.
Families of British soldiers are barred from his press conference.

Pauline Lane ‏@Antonineone1 · 7h7 hours ago
Pauline Lane Retweeted Jeremy for PM
Understand they are having a meeting with Jeremy Corbyn who has always kept in touch with them since the war.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 4:16 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Jeremy for PM
‏@jeremyforlabour
Tony Blair is such a coward he skipped the Chilcot meeting this morning.
Families of British soldiers are barred from his press conference.

Pauline Lane ‏@Antonineone1 · 7h7 hours ago
Pauline Lane Retweeted Jeremy for PM
Understand they are having a meeting with Jeremy Corbyn who has always kept in touch with them since the war.

According to Ian Austin, one of these two people is a disgrace. Can you guess which?

Yep, I don't get it either. I also don't get what Ian Austin thinks he achieved with his appalling behaviour today, because it didn't make that person look like a disgrace, it made Ian Austin look like a disgrace.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 4:31 pm

I'm reading that new Labour membership is around 100.000 now.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 4:32 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Éoin ‏@LabourEoin · 14h14 hours ago

55 Constituency Labour Parties have now held votes on Jeremy Corbyn. 73% passed motions of full confidence in Corbyn
Did any pass any plans to overcome 80% of MPs having no confidence at all? Or was the plan to say mandate a lot?
MPs are representatives. It's about time they started representing something other than themselves.

That's a moan about MPs. It isnt a plan.

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 4:38 pm

ephemerid wrote:On a lighter note.....

Our Brian (a.k.a. Prince Charles) has sent a message to the Welsh football squad saying how proud he is.

The Heath Hospital in Cardiff has trebled its' internet provision for this evening so that patients can watch the game.

In New York, there's a little boy who is severely autistic and rarely communicates - but gets very excited when Wales plays football.
His mother Tweeted this, and the lad is now an honorary member of the supporters' club. There's lovely, as we say in Wales....

Tennis fans - is it me, or is John Invalid absolutely useless at tennis commentary? He's driving me bananas.

John Invalid useless at tennis commentary? In a word - yes.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 4:43 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote: Did any pass any plans to overcome 80% of MPs having no confidence at all? Or was the plan to say mandate a lot?
MPs are representatives. It's about time they started representing something other than themselves.
That's a moan about MPs. It isnt a plan.

No. First it's a vote of confidence in Corbyn. Then you progress to moaning about the MP if they're one of the PLP rebels. That can move on to questioning whether your MP is working in your best interests and whether those same MPs are going to want their constituents support fighting in a GE. Or even getting their vote. If the answer to that is doubtful, then something will likely have to be done about it. Democratically.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 4:44 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Ian Austin MP calling somebody else a "disgrace". Mate, here's a mirror.

Who's a disgrace? The democratically elected leader of the Labour Party, or the man who was warned explicitly by the JIC in early 2003 that an Iraq war would “heighten” the threat from Al Qaeda and other Islamic extremists, and there was a risk that Iraqi weapons could end up in the hands of Al Qaeda?

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 4:48 pm

ohsocynical wrote: No. First it's a vote of confidence in Corbyn.

Arguably, it's also a vote of no confidence in that 80% of the PLP.

What a pickle.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 4:50 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:
mbc1955 wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:Sunny Hundal – ‏@sunny_hundal

This was Blair's chance to accept he made mistakes, claw back sympathy. Instead he's spent 50 min telling us we're too stupid to understand

No wonder Hugo loves Blair so much.

Ooooooooh!!!!!!!! You ARE awful!

But I like you. (Pace the late great Dick Emery)

Jonny, you are a very naughty boy.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 4:52 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Jeremy for PM
‏@jeremyforlabour
Tony Blair is such a coward he skipped the Chilcot meeting this morning.
Families of British soldiers are barred from his press conference.

Pauline Lane ‏@Antonineone1 · 7h7 hours ago
Pauline Lane Retweeted Jeremy for PM
Understand they are having a meeting with Jeremy Corbyn who has always kept in touch with them since the war.

But but but.....Ohso!

Corbyn is useless, unelectable, scruffy, Bennite, etc.tc.etc. and Blair won millions of elections!!!!!!!

(I'll send you a script if you ask nicely)

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 4:54 pm

ephemerid wrote:Jonny, you are a very naughty boy.

Damn. I thought I was the Messiah.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 4:55 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35009342

Tom Watson dismisses Momentum as 'a bit of a rabble

I thought Momentum was a collection of groups and societies including for the disabled and disenfranchised, to give them a stronger voice when campaigning or protesting? and that you didn't have to belong to any particular political party?
Or am I wrong.

I'm not a member. I've never taken much notice of it. I might just join to be awkward.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 4:57 pm

Seriously, all the people who told Corbyn to go are just "representing themselves"? Ed, Kinnock, Gordo, Rhodri?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 4:57 pm

Ephie, I hope you have your Welsh flag to wave tonight.
I've made a little printout and stuck it on a stick.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 4:58 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Seriously, all the people who told Corbyn to go are just "representing themselves"? Ed, Kinnock, Gordo, Rhodri?

Today is really not the day for this, Tubby.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 5:00 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35009342

Tom Watson dismisses Momentum as 'a bit of a rabble'
I thought Momentum was a collection of groups and societies including for the disabled and disenfranchised, to give them a stronger voice when campaigning or protesting? and that you didn't have to belong to any particular political party?
Or am I wrong.

I'm not a member. I've never taken much notice of it. I might just join to be awkward.

I signed up for their emails, partly to see if they were as rabid as we are told they are.
Sadly disappointing in that respect.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 5:04 pm

The 'New World Order' brigade are out to put the boot into Blair as well today.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 5:06 pm

yahyah wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35009342

Tom Watson dismisses Momentum as 'a bit of a rabble'
I thought Momentum was a collection of groups and societies including for the disabled and disenfranchised, to give them a stronger voice when campaigning or protesting? and that you didn't have to belong to any particular political party?
Or am I wrong.

I'm not a member. I've never taken much notice of it. I might just join to be awkward.
I signed up for their emails, partly to see if they were as rabid as we are told they are.
Sadly disappointing in that respect.

I've become a full on Marxist, anti-Semite ever since Jeremy Corbyn started emailing me. All that malarkey about unity, fighting injustice and being nice to one another... Really an insidious brainwashing by a commie sandal and sock wearing serial loser of elections. A disgrace.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 5:07 pm

I'm not defending Blair or invading Iraq.

None of the problems go away because of Chilcot. It doesn't make Corbyn a PM. Still screwing up the most important live issue with his stampede for Article 50.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 5:13 pm

David Baddiel Verified account 
‏@Baddiel

Blair isn't a liar. The most destructive acts are always perpetrated by those with an absolute belief that what they are doing is right.

Exactly !!!

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 5:13 pm

Did the Chilcot report reveal anything damaging to current Labour party leadership?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 5:13 pm

Yes, I know that the Corbyn question still needs resolving. But today was a reminder of why he is now where he is in the first place.

(and I thought at the time, and still do, that the article 50 thing was a way of trying to keep Labour heartland areas that voted for Brexit on board - its not his decision after all)

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 5:13 pm

Don't forget the noodle and granola bar eating too. Shows just how unsuitable for leadership Corbyn is.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 5:14 pm

Have current Labour party people been compromised by the contents?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 5:19 pm

According to Blair when communicating with Bush, all those who marched, protested, or were against invading Iraq, were acting stupidly.

I wonder if he would dare put that on a memorial to the dead?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 5:20 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:I'm not defending Blair or invading Iraq.

None of the problems go away because of Chilcot. It doesn't make Corbyn a PM. Still screwing up the most important live issue with his stampede for Article 50.

Well our current incumbent is the one to blame for us voting to leave and his crass incompetence didn't stop him becoming PM

Also, A50 is not quite as simple as you make out Tubby

It will be a serious issue but I come from the position we will be invoking it at some point.

I do not see benefit waiting for another 6 months gives us....or do you see us staying in the EU?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 5:21 pm

Lyrics for tonight,with the proviso A.Ramsey(50 years coincidence?)for one isn't playing tonight,for those interested.

"Together Stronger (C'mon Wales)"
Not since 1958
When Brazil would make our hearts break
But now that France has arrived
It feels so good to be alive
Lets not forget Gary Speed
He wore his heart upon his sleeve
And if he is looking down
Then our love is all around
So Come on Ramsey
Lets set the world alight
When Gareth Bale plays
We can beat any side
So come on Wales
So come on Wales
With Ashley Williams
We can win any fight
Joe Jordan won with his hand
Russia was Giggsy's last chance
Paul Bodin's penalty miss
That 85 night was so tragic
But now the past is all gone
The future is ours to be won
You're just too good to be true
We can't take our eyes off you
So Come on Ramsey
Lets set the world alight
When Gareth Bale plays
We can beat any side
So come on Wales
So come on Wales
With Ashley Williams
We can win any fight
Chrissy Coleman, Gunter, Chester
Hennessey, Allen, King and Collins
Davis, Ledley, Taylor, Richards
Hal Robson Kanu
So Come on Ramsey
Lets set the world alight
When Gareth Bale plays
We can beat any side
So come on Wales
So come on Wales
Together Stronger
We'll win if we unite

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 5:21 pm

Whether we like it or not, whether we agree or not, he is entitled to his view.
He thought people were stupid.
We all think people are stupid when we disagree with them, or feel they have no validity in their views. Not sure why he would put that on a memorial to the dead, he seems to have been referring to anti-war protestors.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 5:23 pm

Hasn't Ed M apologised already ?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 5:26 pm

Thanks for the song Hindle.

We're watching it with some pals tonight.
All English and a Kiwi, but we'll all be supporting tim pel-droed cenedlaeth Cymru.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 5:27 pm

yahyah wrote:Hasn't Ed M apologised already ?

He sort of did (in his first speech as leader) and Blairites immediately went into a frenzied rage and warned him never to mention the subject again. Or else.