Wednesday 6th July 2016

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 5:28 pm

Thanks Anatoly. My memory is getting patchy.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 5:30 pm

Personally I think people are stupid if they do agree with me,thankfully it is an extremely rare occurrence.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 5:34 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:I'm not defending Blair or invading Iraq.

None of the problems go away because of Chilcot. It doesn't make Corbyn a PM. Still screwing up the most important live issue with his stampede for Article 50.
There were good reasons for calling for Article 50 to be invoked right away, just as there are good reasons not to (chiefly the hope that through some miracle Brexit won't happen). Just because you don't agree with the former doesn't make Corbyn wrong. Only time will tell who is right about this.

The timing is one of the very few bits of leverage we have if we're leaving. If we can be kept in, it's something we don't want to invoke.

He isn't comfortable with the issue, having not bothered with it seriously until he had to as Labour leader. He'd rather get cracking so he doesn't have to think about it.

When we vote Remain in 1975, Benn, Corbyn and others were trying to overrule ASAP. It needs to be done again.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 5:35 pm

Will today be cathartic for those who hate Blair ?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 5:42 pm

Have been spending my time reporting Cif posts calling for Blair, and in one case his family, to commit suicide, or die a violent death.

What is the matter with some of these peace-niks ? So anti war and death they wish it on everyone they disagree with ?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 5:45 pm

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk ... n-launched" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And

http://www.lbc.co.uk/clare-short-blairs ... tes-133397" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 5:48 pm

yahyah wrote:Will today be cathartic for those who hate Blair ?

My reasons for hating Blair have very little to do with Iraq and a great deal more to do with what he did to the Labour Party, our schools and the NHS. Not to mention his attitude to the unions and public sector workers in general. So probably not.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 5:53 pm

James O'Brien ‏@mrjamesob · 12h12 hours ago

Well, thank God we don't take massive, far-reaching decisions without having a bloody clue what's going to happen afterwards any more...

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 5:54 pm

yahyah wrote:Will today be cathartic for those who hate Blair ?

Satisfying rather than cathartic.

History's verdict is in and I didn't even have to live centuries to see it.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 5:54 pm

HindleA wrote:Lyrics for tonight,with the proviso A.Ramsey(50 years coincidence?)for one isn't playing tonight,for those interested.

"Together Stronger (C'mon Wales)"
Not since 1958
When Brazil would make our hearts break
But now that France has arrived
It feels so good to be alive
Lets not forget Gary Speed
He wore his heart upon his sleeve
And if he is looking down
Then our love is all around
So Come on Ramsey
Lets set the world alight
When Gareth Bale plays
We can beat any side
So come on Wales
So come on Wales
With Ashley Williams
We can win any fight
Joe Jordan won with his hand
Russia was Giggsy's last chance
Paul Bodin's penalty miss
That 85 night was so tragic
But now the past is all gone
The future is ours to be won
You're just too good to be true
We can't take our eyes off you
So Come on Ramsey
Lets set the world alight
When Gareth Bale plays
We can beat any side
So come on Wales
So come on Wales
With Ashley Williams
We can win any fight
Chrissy Coleman, Gunter, Chester
Hennessey, Allen, King and Collins
Davis, Ledley, Taylor, Richards
Hal Robson Kanu
So Come on Ramsey
Lets set the world alight
When Gareth Bale plays
We can beat any side
So come on Wales
So come on Wales
Together Stronger
We'll win if we unite

There's also the Hal Robson-Kanu song, to the tune of "Push It" by Salt n Pepa

Hal Robson
Hal Robson kanu
Hal Robson kanu
Hal Robson Kanu
As Welsh as a zebra
But he'll f**king do

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 5:56 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:I'm not defending Blair or invading Iraq.

None of the problems go away because of Chilcot. It doesn't make Corbyn a PM. Still screwing up the most important live issue with his stampede for Article 50.
There were good reasons for calling for Article 50 to be invoked right away, just as there are good reasons not to (chiefly the hope that through some miracle Brexit won't happen). Just because you don't agree with the former doesn't make Corbyn wrong. Only time will tell who is right about this.
The timing is one of the very few bits of leverage we have if we're leaving. If we can be kept in, it's something we don't want to invoke.

He isn't comfortable with the issue, having not bothered with it seriously until he had to as Labour leader. He'd rather get cracking so he doesn't have to think about it.

When we vote Remain in 1975, Benn, Corbyn and others were trying to overrule ASAP. It needs to be done again.

1975 was a different time and leaving then would have been much different from now.....

You make the assumption that there is a chance we can stay in, my assumption is we are going to leave

I don't know who is right but I think evidence is on my side, and yours is wishful thinking to be honest.

Can you tell me what the mechanism will be to overrule the referendum?

If my assumption is correct, and I have seen no evidence that it isn't, the our bit of leverage is just annoying everyone - I live on the continent and I already see people as being a bit perplexed as to why we made such a big noise about leaving but then we aren't actually doing so.

Remember also we may need some favours later, for example an extension to the 2 years, and I think personally that the more we piss about now the less leverage we have when we need it (I fail to see how it is benefiting us at the moment)

The Swiss are very used to referenda....when I said it was 52-48 on a 70% turnout there view was - 'How can you justify ignoring that?'. For example, the one that is causing some concerns in a similar vein here was 50.3-49.7 on a 50% turnout

I am not saying Leave is a good idea at all - in fact the absolute opposite, but I fail to see how it can be prevented

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 5:57 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Seriously, all the people who told Corbyn to go are just "representing themselves"? Ed, Kinnock, Gordo, Rhodri?

Not Ed, as he's an elected MP, but as the others aren't elected to any public body, then yes, they are just representing themselves

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 6:01 pm

HuffPost UK has reported that Labour membership has now hit about 500,000 – easily surpassing the previous peak of 405,000 which occurred during Tony Blair’s leadership of the party.

The Labour Party has gained 100,000 new members since the EU referendum, suggesting attempts by grassroots supporters to keep Jeremy Corbyn as leader against the wishes of the vast majority of his MPs.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 22271.html

Bonnylad · Post by **Bonnylad** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 6:02 pm

When will article 50 be triggered-

July 1 to September 30 2016 6/1

October 1 to December 31 2016 5/1

January 1 to March 31 2017 4/1

April 1 to June 30 2017 9/2

July 1 to September 30 2017 9/1

October 1 to December 31 2017 12/1

2018 or later, or not at all 6/4

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 6:03 pm

I haven't got a deep abiding hatred of Blair because I never felt he posed as something he wasn't.
We knew he was a 'reformer', and although I was well to the left of him [not difficult] I still appreciated that he kept the Tories out.
Another thirteen years of Tory rule and god knows what the country would be like by now.

I also remember hearing about what some called 'the marsh arabs', the Kurds and how they suffered under Sadam. There was a Tory woman MP, Emma Nicholson, who was very strong in her fight to help them. The idea of standing by and letting people suffer is difficult.

We cannot even imagine what it is like to have to make such decisions.
If you are wrong you are hated, reviled and threatened.
If you are right, you are still hated, reviled and threatened, but by a different group of people.

I just feel the extreme level of hatred for Blair is not healthy. He is being projected onto by people.
He's being made into some archetypal monster, a reflection of our own dark sides.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 6:05 pm

Oh and on Blair

A tragedy....he could have done so much. A clever guy, personable, charming and capable. cameron was just a pale imitation

Started off okay and then lost his courage, or he was diverted by the love on money (better men have fallen for that). he then gout the hubris bug and he was like a moth attracted to the power of Bush

It gives me no pleasure to see what happened but today has finally sealed his legacy

For all those who are so happy to criticise Corbyn for his damage to Labour...or any others for that matter...it is insignificant compared to what Blair has done.

The report was damning, even if it held back from really going for the absolute jugular....Blair and his acolytes have been on the fensive with their excuses but the executive summary seems to have been as damning as a report like this could be.

My own personal view is that he lied...because I don't think he is incompetent as this is the only other reasoning and, like many others who get to power, believed just because he thought something that it was right. Cameron again is the same but with less ability

For the sake of Labour, Blair should now go away and enjoy his millions. he has no credibility and he should no longer have any influence on it. I am not interested in his pronouncements on things....

Sad to see it end this way...if it is the end, it could get worse but somehow I don't think we will see anyone in court

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 6:07 pm

Bonnylad wrote:When will article 50 be triggered-

July 1 to September 30 2016 6/1

October 1 to December 31 2016 5/1

January 1 to March 31 2017 4/1

April 1 to June 30 2017 9/2

July 1 to September 30 2017 9/1

October 1 to December 31 2017 12/1

2018 or later, or not at all 6/4

Hmmm...wishful thinking

I see no basis for that belief.......

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 6:08 pm

You are right HowSilly, he wasted a lot of attributes.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 6:15 pm

yahyah wrote:Will today be cathartic for those who hate Blair ?

Hopefully it will be with some. Chilcot *is* damning and shall - I fully expect - be reported in tomorrow's papers as such.

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 6:16 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:Oh and on Blair

A tragedy....he could have done so much. A clever guy, personable, charming and capable. cameron was just a pale imitation

Started off okay and then lost his courage, or he was diverted by the love on money (better men have fallen for that). he then gout the hubris bug and he was like a moth attracted to the power of Bush

It gives me no pleasure to see what happened but today has finally sealed his legacy

For all those who are so happy to criticise Corbyn for his damage to Labour...or any others for that matter...it is insignificant compared to what Blair has done.

The report was damning, even if it held back from really going for the absolute jugular....Blair and his acolytes have been on the fensive with their excuses but the executive summary seems to have been as damning as a report like this could be.

My own personal view is that he lied...because I don't think he is incompetent as this is the only other reasoning and, like many others who get to power, believed just because he thought something that it was right. Cameron again is the same but with less ability

For the sake of Labour, Blair should now go away and enjoy his millions. he has no credibility and he should no longer have any influence on it. I am not interested in his pronouncements on things....

Sad to see it end this way...if it is the end, it could get worse but somehow I don't think we will see anyone in court

I remember the hope and joy with which Labour's election in 1997 was greeted, the expectation that was never really fulfilled.

I still believe that a goat wearing a red rosette could have won that election for Labour, the country having roundly gotten sick of a Tory party whose only remaining policy was that they should be in power because they should, but Blair was the ideal figure in the ideal circumstances. And he blew it. He blew the chance to change so many things for the absolute better. Maybe he never could have delivered them, maybe there were obstacles we couldn't see from the outside, but the possibility was there, and he didn't want it, or didn't want it enough.

He's finished now, whether he accepts it or not. And history has chosen the side on which he will be represented, and he cannot do anything to change it.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 6:18 pm

Night all. Fingers crossed for Wales. Hope Showmaster enjoys the game Ephie, and you haven't got him in the bedroom !

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 6:20 pm

Yahyah, correction: I despise Tony Blair rather than hating him. For all the many steps backward he took us, at least he had some that were forwards too. Thatcher, now her I hated (not surprising really, given that I had more than 2 centuries worth of coal mining to my name on one side of the family, and pedagogy on the other).

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 6:21 pm

Yes, it is easy to forget that Blair left office in 2007 still with a fair amount of affection and goodwill - despite Iraq and everything else.

His behaviour *since* then has squandered that, and merely confirmed to the "haters" that they were right all along.

And for all the talk of Corbynism being a "cult" (with some justification at times) Mr Tony's remaining camp followers fit that description at least as well if not more so.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 6:24 pm

Good point Anatoly. I'd probably have a smidge more affection for Blair if he'd learnt how to keep his mouth shut once he left office. But he and his coterie in the Party have never let up and allowed it to move on.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 6:24 pm

yahyah wrote:Night all. Fingers crossed for Wales. Hope Showmaster enjoys the game Ephie, and you haven't got him in the bedroom !

goodnight, yahyah

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 6:25 pm

I just popped back to apologise. I am sometimes a little too forthright. My mum used to say I was just like my dad.

Sorry if I have caused offence. People are entitled to their opinions. I am no Blair fan.
I hated Clegg with a loathing for years. I dislike Farage intensely. So I am being a hypocrite.
I just feel it doesn't do one's own mental and physical well being any good to harbour those feelings.
It can get twisted up inside and rebound.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 6:28 pm

Believe me yahyah, I'd love to be able to not think about Blair ever again. But, as I've said before, the bugger will just not go away and let me get on with doing just that.

Edit: and no offence caused to me, btw.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 6:29 pm

yahyah wrote:I just popped back to apologise. I am sometimes a little too forthright. My mum used to say I was just like my dad.

Sorry if I have caused offence. People are entitled to their opinions. I am no Blair fan.
I hated Clegg with a loathing for years. I dislike Farage intensely. So I am being a hypocrite.
I just feel it doesn't do one's own mental and physical well being any good to harbour those feelings.
It can get twisted up inside and rebound.

Don't be silly yahyah (from someone with a bit of history, you are like an angel compared to me....)

There is no excuse for some of the bile that is thrown at Blair......the threats etc

Some will accuse him of war crimes and, personally, I am just of the view he isn't but he is pretty damned close

Do I want to see him in jail.....to be honest probably not....

I also think Cameron had a bit of a bloody cheek going on about Libya today as if that was a great success!

What I want to see is Blair to learn the lesson and disappear from public view.....he has no opinion that I want to hear...and he could do us a favour by taking Rentool and Hodges with him

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 6:32 pm

yahyah wrote:I haven't got a deep abiding hatred of Blair because I never felt he posed as something he wasn't.
We knew he was a 'reformer', and although I was well to the left of him [not difficult] I still appreciated that he kept the Tories out.
Another thirteen years of Tory rule and god knows what the country would be like by now.

I also remember hearing about what some called 'the marsh arabs', the Kurds and how they suffered under Sadam. There was a Tory woman MP, Emma Nicholson, who was very strong in her fight to help them. The idea of standing by and letting people suffer is difficult.

We cannot even imagine what it is like to have to make such decisions.
If you are wrong you are hated, reviled and threatened.
If you are right, you are still hated, reviled and threatened, but by a different group of people.

I just feel the extreme level of hatred for Blair is not healthy. He is being projected onto by people.
He's being made into some archetypal monster, a reflection of our own dark sides.

Welcoming to see this very sensible post. Decisions made in 2003 are easy to criticise with 2016 hindsight.

Julie Lenarz has written a piece on what would have happened if we'd never invaded Iraq:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07 ... aded-iraq/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

She's had a fair bit to say about the situation in Iraq, including this:

(((Julie Lenarz))) ‏@MsJulieLenarz 7h7 hours ago
I watched every, single session of #Chilcot Inquiry. Sir John's press conference much more one-sided than evidence given to him in hearings.

As for that 'I'll be with you whatever' letter - Chilcot deliberately, in my opinion, omitted the context of that letter so here's what it said:

btw, by a margin of 54% to 38%, more people supported the invasion:

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/06/03/remembering-iraq/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't expect there will be many in agreement with me but logged in to reply to & to say, thank you yahyah

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 6:40 pm

pk1 wrote:
yahyah wrote:I haven't got a deep abiding hatred of Blair because I never felt he posed as something he wasn't.
We knew he was a 'reformer', and although I was well to the left of him [not difficult] I still appreciated that he kept the Tories out.
Another thirteen years of Tory rule and god knows what the country would be like by now.

I also remember hearing about what some called 'the marsh arabs', the Kurds and how they suffered under Sadam. There was a Tory woman MP, Emma Nicholson, who was very strong in her fight to help them. The idea of standing by and letting people suffer is difficult.

We cannot even imagine what it is like to have to make such decisions.
If you are wrong you are hated, reviled and threatened.
If you are right, you are still hated, reviled and threatened, but by a different group of people.

I just feel the extreme level of hatred for Blair is not healthy. He is being projected onto by people.
He's being made into some archetypal monster, a reflection of our own dark sides.
Welcoming to see this very sensible post. Decisions made in 2003 are easy to criticise with 2016 hindsight.

Julie Lenarz has written a piece on what would have happened if we'd never invaded Iraq:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07 ... aded-iraq/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

She's had a fair bit to say about the situation in Iraq, including this:

(((Julie Lenarz))) ‏@MsJulieLenarz 7h7 hours ago
I watched every, single session of #Chilcot Inquiry. Sir John's press conference much more one-sided than evidence given to him in hearings.

As for that 'I'll be with you whatever' letter - Chilcot deliberately, in my opinion, omitted the context of that letter so here's what it said:

I don't expect there will be many in agreement with me but logged in to reply to & to say, thank you yahyah

Have just looked up Ms Lenarz's profile - I think I will believe the conclusions of a panel full of respected people rather than someone who is a neoconservative and tweets as @msintervention

Also, I think that letter does back up the conclusion that there was a preformed plan to go for regime change and that was not what this was about....

Also, I think we all know how bad Saddam was...we also know he was massively supported during the height of his crimes by the West

This was not the argument to go to war....and if regime change through an aggressive war was the real reason then I think it does make Blair a liar and perhaps a criminal......well done, you have managed to make me even less sympathetic to him

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 6:42 pm

Julie Lenarz tweets as @MsJulieLenarz

Her bio reads:

Political adviser. Executive Director @HS_Centre. Islamism, Terrorism, Religious Freedom, Friend of the Kurds. Enemy of soft bigotry of low expectations.

Goodnight

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 6:45 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/author/julie-lenarz" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 6:49 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
yahyah wrote:You are right HowSilly, he wasted a lot of attributes.
Speaking only for myself, as I can only do, I would have regarded Blair much more favourably after he left power if he'd shown a bit of self-awareness and humility. I find it hard to forgive him for taking us to war in the manner in which he did, and for the neoliberal incursions into public service - foundation trusts, academies and privatisations (seriously, a Labour PM privatising things???). But I only started hating him with a visceral passion when he continued to defend his legacy ever more stridently, continually refusing to admit that he was ever wrong about anything of substance, attacking and undermining Labour leaders who came after him, and just being there as a figurehead for his most ardent followers. (And I do appreciate the irony of a Corbyn supporter saying that).

That's pretty much how I viewed him. I thought he was impressive at first but to me he seemed to become the 'International statesman' rather than Leader of the Labour party and PM.
Iraq was a horrible mistake but it was privatisation and starting to mess around with the NHS, that finally did it for me too.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 6:50 pm

yahyah wrote:Ephie, I hope you have your Welsh flag to wave tonight.
I've made a little printout and stuck it on a stick.

We have. (It's not on a stick, mind)

Show's got a big black eagle of LLewellyn flag. (Showmaster? Show-off more like)

He's also got his red t-shirt on. And socks.

Overkill, I calls it.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 6:51 pm

pk1 wrote:Julie Lenarz tweets as @MsJulieLenarz

Her bio reads:

Political adviser. Executive Director @HS_Centre. Islamism, Terrorism, Religious Freedom, Friend of the Kurds. Enemy of soft bigotry of low expectations.

Goodnight

I think you should look a bit deeper...the organisations she is involved with are significantly to the right, pro-intervention and pro-Israel

She is not an independent, unbiased observer and her opinion cannot be assessed without that knowledge

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 6:56 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
pk1 wrote:
yahyah wrote:I haven't got a deep abiding hatred of Blair because I never felt he posed as something he wasn't.
We knew he was a 'reformer', and although I was well to the left of him [not difficult] I still appreciated that he kept the Tories out.
Another thirteen years of Tory rule and god knows what the country would be like by now.

I also remember hearing about what some called 'the marsh arabs', the Kurds and how they suffered under Sadam. There was a Tory woman MP, Emma Nicholson, who was very strong in her fight to help them. The idea of standing by and letting people suffer is difficult.

We cannot even imagine what it is like to have to make such decisions.
If you are wrong you are hated, reviled and threatened.
If you are right, you are still hated, reviled and threatened, but by a different group of people.

I just feel the extreme level of hatred for Blair is not healthy. He is being projected onto by people.
He's being made into some archetypal monster, a reflection of our own dark sides.
Welcoming to see this very sensible post. Decisions made in 2003 are easy to criticise with 2016 hindsight.

Julie Lenarz has written a piece on what would have happened if we'd never invaded Iraq:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07 ... aded-iraq/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

She's had a fair bit to say about the situation in Iraq, including this:

(((Julie Lenarz))) ‏@MsJulieLenarz 7h7 hours ago
I watched every, single session of #Chilcot Inquiry. Sir John's press conference much more one-sided than evidence given to him in hearings.

As for that 'I'll be with you whatever' letter - Chilcot deliberately, in my opinion, omitted the context of that letter so here's what it said:

I don't expect there will be many in agreement with me but logged in to reply to & to say, thank you yahyah

Have just looked up Ms Lenarz's profile - I think I will believe the conclusions of a panel full of respected people rather than someone who is a neoconservative and tweets as @msintervention

Also, I think that letter does back up the conclusion that there was a preformed plan to go for regime change and that was not what this was about....

Also, I think we all know how bad Saddam was...we also know he was massively supported during the height of his crimes by the West

This was not the argument to go to war....and if regime change through an aggressive war was the real reason then I think it does make Blair a liar and perhaps a criminal......well done, you have managed to make me even less sympathetic to him

With that many 'What ifs' he should have run a country mile from sending the troops in.

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 6:57 pm

The only thing you can say with absolute certainty about the effects of Saddam Hussein not being overthrown is that thousands of people would have died. They would just have been different people from the ones who, in the event, did die. Who are we to take the decision which 'set' of people should be killed?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 7:01 pm

We all know that Saddam's regime was very bad - indeed, one of the worst in the world.

That didn't stop us giving him our support when it suited us (and people who brought up his anti-Kurdish atrocities - I seem to remember a certain J Corbyn being amongst them, whatever happened to him? - were simply ignored) and indeed not "finishing the job" at the end of the 1991 conflict because it was more "convenient" to us then for a weakened SH to remain in place. People in Iraq didn't forget that, and it is part of the distrust they have for the West now.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 7:07 pm

A few Tweets asked why Corbyn hadn't apologised in the HoC.

The families of service people killed in Iraq weren't allowed into the Enquiry.
Corbyn chose to apologise to them at a meeting afterwards.

Fine by me.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 7:13 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:We all know that Saddam's regime was very bad - indeed, one of the worst in the world.

That didn't stop us giving him our support when it suited us (and people who brought up his anti-Kurdish atrocities - I seem to remember a certain J Corbyn being amongst them, whatever happened to him? - were simply ignored) and indeed not "finishing the job" at the end of the 1991 conflict because it was more "convenient" to us then for a weakened SH to remain in place. People in Iraq didn't forget that, and it is part of the distrust they have for the West now.

Some companies made and are still making an awful lot of money from Iraq. Millions/billions of dollars 'mislaid.' Incompetence on a huge scale.

Blair is discredited. I'd like to see it end there, but it won't while he persists in drawing attention to himself.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 7:33 pm

"Brexit didn't casue this, but it did make it happen."

Guardian live business blog
Last sentence from a Brexit supporter's post below the line

https://discussion.theguardian.com/comm ... k/78376815" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 7:36 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:
yahyah wrote:Will today be cathartic for those who hate Blair ?
My reasons for hating Blair have very little to do with Iraq and a great deal more to do with what he did to the Labour Party, our schools and the NHS. Not to mention his attitude to the unions and public sector workers in general. So probably not.

Mainly spent money on schools and the NHS.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 7:42 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... se-profile" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

David Isaac: ‘Disabled people still face huge barriers’
The new head of the Equality and Human Rights Commission plans to raise the organisation’s profile and make it a spirited defender of human rights

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 7:47 pm

Jo Maugham QC ‏@JolyonMaugham · 17h17 hours ago

Just wow. Seven. Hundred. Thousand. fewer jobs advertised post-Brexit (h/t @PickardJE)

http://app.ft.com/cms/s/88cd6ee4-42bd-1 ... 73ae1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ….

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 8:01 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
JonnyT1234 wrote:
yahyah wrote:Will today be cathartic for those who hate Blair ?
My reasons for hating Blair have very little to do with Iraq and a great deal more to do with what he did to the Labour Party, our schools and the NHS. Not to mention his attitude to the unions and public sector workers in general. So probably not.
Mainly spent money on schools and the NHS.

Mainly legitimised the Tory mantra of private good, public bad. The money was spent on the right things for the wrong reasons and gave succour to the notion that the public sector was incapable of delivering 'value for money' despite having done nothing but for 30+ years. 1 step forward. 10 back.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 8:07 pm

"The electorate never gets to vote on who becomes Leader of the Conservative Party. The decision is made by those who happen
to be members of the Conservative Party. And perhaps they’re there, but I can’t find in the Constitution of the Conservative Party
a requirement that you be old enough to vote, or resident in the UK, or on the electoral register to become a member of the
Conservative Party.

How’s that democracy?"

- Jolyon Maugham

https://waitingfortax.com/2016/07/05/th ... democracy/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 8:18 pm

And after today you can see why the PLP was so keen to get rid of Corbyn

I actually thought he was very restrained and he measured it pretty well....considering his personal views are probably much more damning

Contrast this with the behaviour of Ian Austin and the response of Blair himself

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 8:26 pm

weird. I don't mind hugo's interventions.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 8:26 pm

citizenJA wrote:
"Brexit didn't casue this, but it did make it happen."
Guardian live business blog
Last sentence from a Brexit supporter's post below the line

https://discussion.theguardian.com/comm ... k/78376815" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's just FANTASTIC!!!!!!!!!

Good spot, J.

I've got a broken plate, I have.
I dropped it on the floor.
I didn't cause the plate to be broken, but I made it happen.

This is irrefutable logic a la Brexiteer.

I am posting this bilge because I cannot watch the football.
This is because Show is jumping up and down, yelling, and generally looking as if he's about to do himself a mischief.

My nerves won't stand it.

I'll end up causing things to happen that are not my fault.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 06 Jul, 2016 8:39 pm

After the post sharing the opinions of Ms Lenartz earlier - I started having a little tour around the internet and it is amazing how many links there are between all these organizations and MPs and journalists - neoconservative, pro-interventionist, pro-Israel....in fact anti-Corbyn in most areas.....

For example Ms Lenartz is part of the same sphere as a right winger such as Simon Westrop who is linked to the Freedom Assocaition (and hence the right of the Tory Party), which has itself links to the IEA.. He also seems to beinvolved with some on the so-called 'liberal left' who signed the Euston Manifesto. These are then active at Labour conferences and a number of interesting names pop up in the Labour establishment, as well as some vociferously pro-war journalists such as Cohen and Aaranovitch

There does seem to be still a group of people, across all parties, but including many well-known Labour figures who are sympathetic to this pro-interventionist and pro-Israeli approach....and who have been out and about supporting Blair in the media today

I am sensitive about saying anything against anyone who is pro-Israeli because of the recent examples of anything remotely being construed as critical of the Israeli Government is called as anti-semitic.

From these brief trawl though I would say you can start to understand why getting rid of Corbyn was so important to some people in the PLP