Thursday, 7th July 2016

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 10:55 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:The most revealing remark from that anonymous Labour MP quoted in this morning's Telegraph is "they keep signing up members"......

Who, exactly, is "they"?
Momentum, obviously.

Do you think Corbyn should stay or go?

You have said in the past that you expect him to quit before 2020. What he will do isn't my question.

What should he do?

IMO Corbyn should go once there has been a significant realignment of the Labour Party that accommodates once more a broad spectrum of thinking on the left. Where it's OK not to kowtow to the Westminster / City establishment. Where it's OK to have an ethical foreign policy. Where you aren't automatically laughed at for suggesting it might be sensible to be nuclear free.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 10:57 am

NonOxCol wrote:
Willow904 wrote:Btw - Andrea Leadsom - I know personal insults are childish and generally unacceptable but, bloody hell, she sounds thick. I mean, seriously?!
She is the embodiment of "you get the politicians you deserve", and a salutary lesson for Lexiters everywhere.

I thanked your post only to then think maybe that's a bit harsh, actually. I agree people would have deserved Gove or Boris, but Leadsom's a bit of a surprise to everyone and if the media had highlighted her as a possible PM pre-Brexit it may have given a few people pause for thought!

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 11:04 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:The most revealing remark from that anonymous Labour MP quoted in this morning's Telegraph is "they keep signing up members"......

Who, exactly, is "they"?
Momentum, obviously.

Do you think Corbyn should stay or go?

You have said in the past that you expect him to quit before 2020. What he will do isn't my question.

What should he do?
IMO Corbyn should go once there has been a significant realignment of the Labour Party that accommodates once more a broad spectrum of thinking on the left. Where it's OK not to kowtow to the Westminster / City establishment. Where it's OK to have an ethical foreign policy. Where you aren't automatically laughed at for suggesting it might be sensible to be nuclear free.

presumably that requires a substantial change in who makes up the PLP?

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 11:07 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:The most revealing remark from that anonymous Labour MP quoted in this morning's Telegraph is "they keep signing up members"......

Who, exactly, is "they"?
Momentum, obviously.

Do you think Corbyn should stay or go?

You have said in the past that you expect him to quit before 2020. What he will do isn't my question.

What should he do?

Momentum, as I understand it, is non-party political - a grass roots anti-austerity, anti-elite, pro-ordinary people movement - so I'll be interested to see your link to the evidence that Momentum are 'signing people up to Labour' (mind you, so what if they are - as I also understand it, many are joining to oppose Corbyn, because they agree he's useless and unelectable

).

As a £3 Corbynista (and, unlike some, also not completely binary in my views - i.e. I don't automatically agree or disagree with everything emanating from the Leader of the Opposition) I believe(TM) he should, as should all members of the PLP, follow the rules - if there is a challenge to his leadership that follows the rules (and let's face it - where would we be if there were no rules? (France, I hear you all cry

chapeau Al Murray)) and he loses then he should go.

In fairness though, a rolling-back of the anti-Corbyn vitriol might see a more considered solution - given the size of the Labour tent now, I should think you need a canoe to get around as so many are p*****g inside it.

ttfn

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 11:23 am

RobertSnozers wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote: IMO Corbyn should go once there has been a significant realignment of the Labour Party that accommodates once more a broad spectrum of thinking on the left. Where it's OK not to kowtow to the Westminster / City establishment. Where it's OK to have an ethical foreign policy. Where you aren't automatically laughed at for suggesting it might be sensible to be nuclear free.
presumably that requires a substantial change in who makes up the PLP?
Good idea. Let's push for that.

I think that is indeed the next move. It can't be the case that Labour continues with 172 MPs opposing the leader, and is unable to fill shadow cabinet posts. Having, say, Paul Flynn as shadow leader of the Commons and shadow Welsh Secretary, and Richard Burgon as shadow Lord Chancellor isn't sustainable.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 11:25 am

At last!!!!!!!

Proof that FTN is an echo chamber!!!!!!!

Once again, we have the questions that have already been answered and round and round we go again.

Again - again, I say that Corbyn should stay because of the reasons I have given many times and for the reasons he has given himself.
Again - again, I say that the PLP must get behind their duly elected leader and provide a unified robust opposition to the Tories.

HOW MANY MORE TIMES???????

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 11:26 am

Lonewolfie wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:The most revealing remark from that anonymous Labour MP quoted in this morning's Telegraph is "they keep signing up members"......

Who, exactly, is "they"?
Momentum, obviously.

Do you think Corbyn should stay or go?

You have said in the past that you expect him to quit before 2020. What he will do isn't my question.

What should he do?
Momentum, as I understand it, is non-party political - a grass roots anti-austerity, anti-elite, pro-ordinary people movement - so I'll be interested to see your link to the evidence that Momentum are 'signing people up to Labour' (mind you, so what if they are - as I also understand it, many are joining to oppose Corbyn, because they agree he's useless and unelectable ).

As a £3 Corbynista (and, unlike some, also not completely binary in my views - i.e. I don't automatically agree or disagree with everything emanating from the Leader of the Opposition) I believe(TM) he should, as should all members of the PLP, follow the rules - if there is a challenge to his leadership that follows the rules (and let's face it - where would we be if there were no rules? (France, I hear you all cry chapeau Al Murray)) and he loses then he should go.

In fairness though, a rolling-back of the anti-Corbyn vitriol might see a more considered solution - given the size of the Labour tent now, I should think you need a canoe to get around as so many are p*****g inside it.

ttfn

No rule saying he can't quit when he loses the support of the PLP. He could choose to go anytime he liked. I don't think we can justify his decision to stay on the basis that the rules require it.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 11:29 am

If there must be a "substantial change" in who makes up the Parliamentary Labour Party there will have to be deselections. Obviously.

It would be better by far for the current members of the PLP to support their leader. equally obviously.

Do we really have to go through all this again?

FFS.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 11:29 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote: Momentum, obviously.

Do you think Corbyn should stay or go?

You have said in the past that you expect him to quit before 2020. What he will do isn't my question.

What should he do?
IMO Corbyn should go once there has been a significant realignment of the Labour Party that accommodates once more a broad spectrum of thinking on the left. Where it's OK not to kowtow to the Westminster / City establishment. Where it's OK to have an ethical foreign policy. Where you aren't automatically laughed at for suggesting it might be sensible to be nuclear free.
presumably that requires a substantial change in who makes up the PLP?

I'm not even sure it does. Let's remember that these "totemic" policies like Trident and "nationalisation" are only totemic because the "big beasts" make them so. It's just like which six you're in at cubs. I'm in Trident. What are you in?

Most Labour MPs just want to make lives better for their constituents and for ordinary folk across the country, through a better health service for all, better education for all, access to higher education, well-resourced councils and so on. If I were Labour leader I would acknowledge the defence and foreign policy differences across the party and for the time being allow unwhipped votes. Then get back to attacking the Tories on NHS, schools, higher education, regions and local councils etc. (all of which contribute to a strong economy) and develop compelling Labour policies for these areas fit for 2016.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 11:29 am

ephemerid wrote:At last!!!!!!!

Proof that FTN is an echo chamber!!!!!!!

Once again, we have the questions that have already been answered and round and round we go again.

Again - again, I say that Corbyn should stay because of the reasons I have given many times and for the reasons he has given himself.
Again - again, I say that the PLP must get behind their duly elected leader and provide a unified robust opposition to the Tories.

HOW MANY MORE TIMES???????

have we?

Where and where has AK said what Corbyn should do? I haven't been around much, and so I am quite prepared to accept that you might be right. Point me to the link.

And I have never asked the questions to which you give answers.

I know full well you want Corbyn to stay, and think the PLP should get behind him. I have never once asked about that.

Yesterday I asked what you think WILL happen (not what you think should).

Today I asked AK what he thinks Corbyn SHOULD do (FTN not being, as I am often told, an echo chamber where everyone shares your view).

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 11:33 am

RobertSnozers wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote: No rule saying he can't quit when he loses the support of the PLP.
Nope. Equally no rule saying he has to. Ball's in the PLP's court.

Yes. Perhaps they will now just wait. In say 6 months the performance of the current shadow cabinet will have been very interesting.

But, as I said yesterday, I can't see what a good outcome for Labour now will be. The MPs aren't going to get behind Corbyn. They aren't going to split. And so wait I guess. Dangerous as deselection must be back on the table I'd have thought.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 11:35 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote: IMO Corbyn should go once there has been a significant realignment of the Labour Party that accommodates once more a broad spectrum of thinking on the left. Where it's OK not to kowtow to the Westminster / City establishment. Where it's OK to have an ethical foreign policy. Where you aren't automatically laughed at for suggesting it might be sensible to be nuclear free.
presumably that requires a substantial change in who makes up the PLP?
I'm not even sure it does. Let's remember that these "totemic" policies like Trident and "nationalisation" are only totemic because the "big beasts" make them so. It's just like which six you're in at cubs. I'm in Trident. What are you in?

Most Labour MPs just want to make lives better for their constituents and for ordinary folk across the country, through a better health service for all, better education for all, access to higher education, well-resourced councils and so on. If I were Labour leader I would acknowledge the defence and foreign policy differences across the party and for the time being allow unwhipped votes. Then get back to attacking the Tories on NHS, schools, higher education, regions and local councils etc. (all of which contribute to a strong economy) and develop compelling Labour policies for these areas fit for 2016.

I think that view was sustainable last September. Now, with 172 MPs including Ed Miliband saying he should go, there is just no way they will unite behind Corbyn.

I agree with Ed.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 11:38 am

ephemerid wrote:If there must be a "substantial change" in who makes up the Parliamentary Labour Party there will have to be deselections. Obviously.

It would be better by far for the current members of the PLP to support their leader. equally obviously.

Do we really have to go through all this again?

FFS.

Apparently yes, we do. Maybe it'll turn out differently this time. Best 2 of 3?

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 11:41 am

StephenDolan wrote:
ephemerid wrote:If there must be a "substantial change" in who makes up the Parliamentary Labour Party there will have to be deselections. Obviously.

It would be better by far for the current members of the PLP to support their leader. equally obviously.

Do we really have to go through all this again?

FFS.
Apparently yes, we do. Maybe it'll turn out differently this time. Best 2 of 3?

One thing I don't know is about the balance on the NEC (I am not geeky enough to follow that). How close/faraway from control of that is Corbyn?

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 11:49 am

Willow904 wrote:
NonOxCol wrote:
Willow904 wrote:Btw - Andrea Leadsom - I know personal insults are childish and generally unacceptable but, bloody hell, she sounds thick. I mean, seriously?!
She is the embodiment of "you get the politicians you deserve", and a salutary lesson for Lexiters everywhere.
I thanked your post only to then think maybe that's a bit harsh, actually. I agree people would have deserved Gove or Boris, but Leadsom's a bit of a surprise to everyone and if the media had highlighted her as a possible PM pre-Brexit it may have given a few people pause for thought!

I have less sympathy I'm afraid. It's illuminating how people such as Banks, Mensch and Hopkins have soon transferred their support to Leadsom. The actual identity of the front person for these freaks and ideologues barely matters.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 12:12 pm

NonOxCol wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
NonOxCol wrote: She is the embodiment of "you get the politicians you deserve", and a salutary lesson for Lexiters everywhere.
I thanked your post only to then think maybe that's a bit harsh, actually. I agree people would have deserved Gove or Boris, but Leadsom's a bit of a surprise to everyone and if the media had highlighted her as a possible PM pre-Brexit it may have given a few people pause for thought!
I have less sympathy I'm afraid. It's illuminating how people such as Banks, Mensch and Hopkins have soon transferred their support to Leadsom. The actual identity of the front person for these freaks and ideologues barely matters.

That is a very good point, NonOxCol.

One has only to look at the record of Our Erstwhile Glorious Pig Poking Ronsealed Fishpointer General, the craven little popinjay.

The Tories desperately needed a change of image - and despite quite a few of them apparently not liking Cameron much, he got the job.
The caring, sharing, compassionate, green, husky-hugging, hoodie-hugging, not-quite-Blair-type New Model Conservative.

What we got was the same old NHS/Union/poor/sick/disabled-bashing ideologue like most of the Tories who came before; a very posh, rich, privileged, over-educated but emotionally unintelligent spiv who married well and had no sense of noblesse oblige.

He's done what was required. The economy is a shambles; the NHS is on its' knees; and it, along with our social security, education, and justice, is on the way to privatisation. And thanks to a toss of the dice, a gamble for personal kudos and assumed political edge, this moron has led the UK into a vote for Brexit which is creating chaos and he is now running away like the coward he is.

The ghastly individuals you mention - the likes of Mensch et al who have influence in our media - will support whoever their bosses (in her case, Murdoch) tell her to support. If Gove can't win for Old Rupe, then Leadsom will have to do. She, of course, is nothing more than a not-too-bright corporate shill whose CV contains as much truth as her new best friend, one Iain "Perugia" Duncan Schmidt.

It's exactly as Warren Buffet said -
"There's class warfare, all right, but it's my class, the rich class, that's making was, and we're winning".

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 12:14 pm

Out of interest, how many non-Tory party MPs have been caught out embellishing their histories?

Archer, Smith, Leadsom, Shapps, and, presumably, many, many more in the Tories over time. But other parties?

"Let's banish the pessimists." Good idea.
"Let's welcome the fantasists" Ah, now here's the catch...

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 12:18 pm

Deborah Orr ‏@DeborahJaneOrr 38m38 minutes ago
Leadsom banishes pessimists, leaving UK entirely peopled by immigrants.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 12:20 pm

ATL at the PLB:

Smith and Angela Eagle, the shadow business secretary, have both been canvassing support to mount a leadership challenge against Jeremy Corbyn, but so far it has yet to materialise. That is partly because there is consensus that only one person should challenge Corbyn, and Smith and Eagle cannot agree who it should be, but also because Tom Watson, the Labour deputy leader, is involved in talks with union leaders to try to find a less divisive resolution to the conflict.

I think the words being looked for here are, '...to try to find a resolution that doesn't end up with the PLP suffering a humiliating, crushing defeat.'

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 12:23 pm

I want a simple answer to a simple question please:

How much (in direct civil service/consultancy etc costs alone) is Brexit going to cost?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 12:27 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:The most revealing remark from that anonymous Labour MP quoted in this morning's Telegraph is "they keep signing up members"......

Who, exactly, is "they"?
Momentum, obviously.

Do you think Corbyn should stay or go?

You have said in the past that you expect him to quit before 2020. What he will do isn't my question.

What should he do?

Well if that's what they meant, they are wrong (as with much else) The vast majority of this - now huge - spike in membership is spontaneous.

If you want a serious answer - pledge to step down in a year or two, replace Milne, take other steps to reach out to at least some of the 170.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 12:33 pm

This is embarrassingly hilarious - like a scene from the BBC's soon to be commissioned, multi-award winning "The Head Office":

Leadsom for Leader march

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 12:36 pm

Defeated Labour rebels admit 'it's finished' as Jeremy Corbyn refuses to resign as leader

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07 ... um=twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 12:39 pm

Labour membership now tops 600,000

Stephen Bush ‏@stephenkb 1h1 hour ago

I have been ringing round CLPs and the most negative picture for Corbyn would put it at 80-20 new joiners for him.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 12:39 pm

WT(Very)F ?

Andrea Leadsom supporters just staged the most polite march on Parliament ever

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/to ... st-8368209" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

: ScreenShot01466.jpg (104.13 KiB) Viewed 5901 times

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 12:39 pm

However, Eagle’s backers insisted she has more signatures than the 20% of the parliamentary party that would be necessary to launch a challenge; and is in a “holding pattern”, ready to launch a bid if Corbyn refuses to step down.

Cunningly shaped like several u-turns. That'll throw 'em...

source

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 12:42 pm

Corbyn is still unelectable, and every day he remains as leader makes a huge Tory majority increasingly likely. If he is still in charge when the new Tory leader is elected they will almost certainly call a GE returning with a majority of 100+. I note he has said nothing of value on Brexit, other than to adopt Leadsom's policy principles on A50.

What this country desperately needs is a strong centre left leader of an opposition, with a pro EU - don't fuck the economy for ideology argument - savaging the Tories for the economic chaos they have created. They can argue with the money we save by staying in we can end austerity and massively invest in the deprived areas of the country.

I also dislike the Momentum leadership, the worst aspects of the hard left in this country, in parts anti democratic and anti semitic. Many of the members of that organisation share neither of those traits but should look closely at who they are in bed with.

Anyway this will probably annoy people, maybe it will amuse some. I dont warranty the Mail esque links below the story.

http://newsthump.com/2016/07/07/chilcot ... d-no-plan/

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 12:43 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:I want a simple answer to a simple question please:

How much (in direct civil service/consultancy etc costs alone) is Brexit going to cost?

You're even more determined to see the downsides of Bwrecksit than I am, tiny.

OMG: EY and KPMG to negotiate Brexit
http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016 ... ch+UK+2%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Of course, it doesn't matter how much it costs, it will just be paid.
Unlike say, the NHS.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 12:46 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:I want a simple answer to a simple question please:

How much (in direct civil service/consultancy etc costs alone) is Brexit going to cost?

I'll hazard a guess: significantly more than £350 million per week for the next 10 years.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 12:46 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:The most revealing remark from that anonymous Labour MP quoted in this morning's Telegraph is "they keep signing up members"......

Who, exactly, is "they"?
Momentum, obviously.

Do you think Corbyn should stay or go?

You have said in the past that you expect him to quit before 2020. What he will do isn't my question.

What should he do?
Well if that's what they meant, they are wrong (as with much else) The vast majority of this - now huge - spike in membership is spontaneous.

If you want a serious answer - pledge to step down in a year or two, replace Milne, take other steps to reach out to at least some of the 170.

I am completely sure it is mainly spontaneous.. That isn't incompatible with Momentum signing up members. The Labour party membership is transforming radically before our eyes. There always were a very large number of people committed to politics who were to the left of Labour as it was. Some will approve of this change, some not. I am not a member any longer and so am just looking in.

There is, I think, an enormous generational divide in the left. Generalising (so this won't apply to many). There are the oldsters who remember the battles of the 80s who are horrified by Corbyn. Then there are those under 32 or so whose first significant political memory is Iraq, and have no time whatsoever with those who want to be 'moderate'. I marched against Iraq, but I am an oldster. How Iraq transformed UK politics is only now being truly understood.

One other impact was on lack of deference. So, when most politicians say "Trust me, Brexit is seriously stupid" (which of course it is) most people no longer defer to their views.

I don't think Corbyn is going to do what you suggest. It would be to betray his comrades.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 12:47 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Defeated Labour rebels admit 'it's finished' as Jeremy Corbyn refuses to resign as leader

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07 ... um=twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Different story from Owen Smith who is the most likely candidate. But unless the unions have any interest in pushing for a resolution I tend to agree with the Telegraph view.

If Corbyn hangs on I don't really see an alternative other than to break away. Assuming he loses the next election by a landslide, he still won't resign and it would be better to create a credible opposition now rather than later. It might reduce the number of Tory governments from 3 to 2.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 12:47 pm

TobyLatimer wrote:WT(Very)F ?

Andrea Leadsom supporters just staged the most polite march on Parliament ever

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/to ... st-8368209" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The mirror has badly misspelt 'cringeworthy' there.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 12:48 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:Corbyn is still unelectable, and every day he remains as leader makes a huge Tory majority increasingly likely. If he is still in charge when the new Tory leader is elected they will almost certainly call a GE returning with a majority of 100+. I note he has said nothing of value on Brexit, other than to adopt Leadsom's policy principles on A50.

What this country desperately needs is a strong centre left leader of an opposition, with a pro EU - don't fuck the economy for ideology argument - savaging the Tories for the economic chaos they have created. They can argue with the money we save by staying in we can end austerity and massively invest in the deprived areas of the country.

I also dislike the Momentum leadership, the worst aspects of the hard left in this country, in parts anti democratic and anti semitic. Many of the members of that organisation share neither of those traits but should look closely at who they are in bed with.

Anyway this will probably annoy people, maybe it will amuse some. I dont warranty the Mail esque links below the story.

http://newsthump.com/2016/07/07/chilcot ... d-no-plan/

I of course agree TE, but I am a bit doubtful about the utility of repeating this. Everyone here must know what you (and I) think about this.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 12:51 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:Corbyn is still unelectable, and every day he remains as leader makes a huge Tory majority increasingly likely. If he is still in charge when the new Tory leader is elected they will almost certainly call a GE returning with a majority of 100+. I note he has said nothing of value on Brexit, other than to adopt Leadsom's policy principles on A50.

What this country desperately needs is a strong centre left leader of an opposition, with a pro EU - don't fuck the economy for ideology argument - savaging the Tories for the economic chaos they have created. They can argue with the money we save by staying in we can end austerity and massively invest in the deprived areas of the country.

I also dislike the Momentum leadership, the worst aspects of the hard left in this country, in parts anti democratic and anti semitic. Many of the members of that organisation share neither of those traits but should look closely at who they are in bed with.

Anyway this will probably annoy people, maybe it will amuse some. I dont warranty the Mail esque links below the story.

http://newsthump.com/2016/07/07/chilcot ... d-no-plan/
I of course agree TE, but I am a bit doubtful about the utility of repeating this. Everyone here must know what you (and I) think about this.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 12:53 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:I want a simple answer to a simple question please:

How much (in direct civil service/consultancy etc costs alone) is Brexit going to cost?

And how much did the referendum cost ? I've seen estimates up to just over £140million.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 12:53 pm

Good-afternoon, everyone.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 12:54 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Defeated Labour rebels admit 'it's finished' as Jeremy Corbyn refuses to resign as leader

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07 ... um=twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Different story from Owen Smith who is the most likely candidate. But unless the unions have any interest in pushing for a resolution I tend to agree with the Telegraph view.

If Corbyn hangs on I don't really see an alternative other than to break away. Assuming he loses the next election by a landslide, he still won't resign and it would be better to create a credible opposition now rather than later. It might reduce the number of Tory governments from 3 to 2.

I had thought for about 6 hours last week that Miliband's intervention might swing it. Indeed a year ago it would have done as the party was differently constituted. Now it is a different party. Smith/Eagle etc must know that if they stand they will lose. So what else to do? Wait I suppose. He is 67, and it isn't going to be fun trying to run the opposition frontbench with the likes of Burgon, Flynn and Lewis. if the members still really, really want to jump off this cliff, what can the MPs do? Try next year? His position is still deteriorating and isn't going to improve (partly because he is so inept).

ScarletGas · Post by **ScarletGas** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 12:54 pm

On the subject of our potential successor to Thatcher Ms Leadsom.

Good piece in the Guardian (sorry can't link) on her family background and the assistance of a rich relative.

Seems like her rise from/to mediocrity has in no small way been financed by her brother in law one "Guernsey based financier" Peter de Pruton. (Married to her sister)

Personally donated £200,000 to the tories since 2010 (as well as financing Leadsom directly) His companies also donated significant amounts to the tories.

Leadsoms charities seem also to have been financed in a significant way from Guernsey.

I am not trying to imply in any way that there is anything illegal or untoward in this payments which seem to be quite properly in the public domain.

It can however not have obstructed Leadsoms rise in the party for her to have this family backing.

One does not have to wonder at the motivation of the donors in all of this but it does, in my mind, bring into sharp relief Leadsoms debt to them and what is expected from her if/when she becomes PM.

Not so much a "sugar daddy" as a "sugar brother in law" perhaps

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 1:00 pm

ephemerid wrote:If there must be a "substantial change" in who makes up the Parliamentary Labour Party there will have to be deselections. Obviously.

It would be better by far for the current members of the PLP to support their leader. equally obviously.

Do we really have to go through all this again?

FFS.

I repeat what I said yesterday - just don't debate with him, he's an echo chamber in himself, always echoing his own opinions.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 1:03 pm

Sorry if I offended with my comment. Yes it is simplistic, but I'm an old hippy who remembers the 'What if they gave a war and nobody came' slogan.

It is not an excuse per se, but I am feeling very stressed. Our nasty neighbours, who have a long history of being vexacious idiots with us, and other neighbours both past and present, have stepped up their campaign of intimidation.

We feel we can no longer put upon our solicitor friend so have made an appointment to see a local solicitor tomorrow.
Hopefully it will not be too expensive to try and set some form of limit with them.
We don't want to escalate matters, but because the police had to send armed police before we moved here, with three sets of nice, normal neighbours reporting the sound of gunfire, the effect of a bullet whizzing through shrubberies, and the smell of cordite type substance, we feel we have to take action.
My husband is normally a strong and phlegmatic character but it is getting to him too.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 1:03 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:...partly because he is so inept...

The PLP being tremendously competent, of course. I mean, this coup has been pulled off without a single hitch following a full 9 months of plotting and planning for the moment. Corbyn demonstrating once again just how useless he is in comparison to the leading lights of the PLP by hopelessly beating the other, much superior candidates for the leadership and then turning tail and not resigning when he was meant to.

It's like that scene from Star Trek where Kirk does the seemingly impossible by beating Spock at 3D chess by being illogical with his moves. "Curse you Kirk and your entirely predictable behaviour of not doing what you were meant to do... I mean, who could have seen that coming!"

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 1:05 pm

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 1:08 pm

: Cms6EPoWYAAkPgB.jpg (91.56 KiB) Viewed 5777 times

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 1:09 pm

I'm always ready to hear Hugo and TE, but may I say that anyone who can possibly judge what kind of politician will be "electable" at the next General Election is a much, much smarter guy than me.

One week Dave is unassailable, the next Osborne is the anointed successor, then it's Boris romping home. Currently May is the favourite. Leadsom? Gove?

If it's so chaotic on the Tory side, how can we possibly know what an "electable" Labour PM looks like?

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 1:11 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I'm always ready to hear Hugo and TE, but may I say that anyone who can possibly judge what kind of politician will be "electable" at the next General Election is a much, much smarter guy than me.

One week Dave is unassailable, the next Osborne is the anointed successor, then it's Boris romping home. Currently May is the favourite. Leadsom? Gove?

If it's so chaotic on the Tory side, how can we possibly know what an "electable" Labour PM looks like?

Grant Shapps for PM.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 1:11 pm

danesclose wrote:.

Easily the most sensible post here today danesclose

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 1:11 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I'm always ready to hear Hugo and TE, but may I say that anyone who can possibly judge what kind of politician will be "electable" at the next General Election is a much, much smarter guy than me.

One week Dave is unassailable, the next Osborne is the anointed successor, then it's Boris romping home. Currently May is the favourite. Leadsom? Gove?

If it's so chaotic on the Tory side, how can we possibly know what an "electable" Labour PM looks like?
Grant Shapps for PM.

Well exactly. Could you rule it out?

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 1:11 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Defeated Labour rebels admit 'it's finished' as Jeremy Corbyn refuses to resign as leader

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07 ... um=twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Different story from Owen Smith who is the most likely candidate. But unless the unions have any interest in pushing for a resolution I tend to agree with the Telegraph view.

If Corbyn hangs on I don't really see an alternative other than to break away. Assuming he loses the next election by a landslide, he still won't resign and it would be better to create a credible opposition now rather than later. It might reduce the number of Tory governments from 3 to 2.

I had thought for about 6 hours last week that Miliband's intervention might swing it. Indeed a year ago it would have done as the party was differently constituted. Now it is a different party. Smith/Eagle etc must know that if they stand they will lose. So what else to do? Wait I suppose. He is 67, and it isn't going to be fun trying to run the opposition frontbench with the likes of Burgon, Flynn and Lewis. if the members still really, really want to jump off this cliff, what can the MPs do? Try next year? His position is still deteriorating and isn't going to improve (partly because he is so inept).

And if Corbyn does resign, who do you think the PLP will be satisfied with as Leader? Certainly not Smith (far too left wing)
They weren't happy with either Brown or Miliband.
Would you be happy with anyone other than a disciple of Blair?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 1:13 pm

Leadsom says she'll hold a vote on fox hunting if she wins.

Makes me wish Cameron wasn't going. He wasn't in a hurry to bring back fox killing.
Brexit voters, what have you done ?

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Thu 07 Jul, 2016 1:13 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Well exactly. Could you rule it out?

He's got at least 3 times as many chances as everyone else, so I wouldn't bet on it....