Thursday, 7th July 2016

[howsillyofme1]

No matter what side of the Labour Party you are on I would challenge you not to accept that the quality of the 4 Labour candidates was much better than the line up we saw for the Tories

I may not be a fan of Kendall and can't hide my continual disappointment in Cooper but their values seem to be so much higher

More compassionate, more egalitarian and more open

May, Gove, Leadsom, Fox, Crabb

What a motley crew that is! Liars, cheats, xenophobes, bigots.....

[HindleA]

http://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/co ... ise-funds/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Council cuts ex-ILF care packages after spurning chance to raise funds


http://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/la ... promotion/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Labour left with no disability shadow after Abrahams’ promotion

[HindleA]

All positives as far as winning elections go,though.

[howsillyofme1]

All positives as far as winning elections go,though.

Says more about the values of the British though

If that the case then we deserve everything we get!

[JonnyT1234]

The PLP are a "small right group"?

Not what I said.

Had a much longer answer but deleted it because, meh, cannot be bothered to retread this ground again, again.

[TR'sGhost]

Isn't it possible simply to not read stuff one knows is going to annoy one?

I do it all the time ...

The catch is that, if ignored, a certain kind of troll will then go and troll elsewhere, pointing to posts on forums where everyone ignores them as proof they are right because "even on.... where they all think I'm wrong, no-one could repudiate my powerful arguments. Or even attempt to."

It's a tactic frequently used by climate change deniers, young earth creationists, 9/11 truthers, "birthers" and many other sad types with a bee in their bonnet to spam and spin.

[howsillyofme1]

Isn't it possible simply to not read stuff one knows is going to annoy one?

I do it all the time ...

The catch is that, if ignored, a certain kind of troll will then go and troll elsewhere, pointing to posts on forums where everyone ignores them as proof they are right because "even on.... where they all think I'm wrong, no-one could repudiate my powerful arguments. Or even attempt to."

It's a tactic frequently used by climate change deniers, young earth creationists, 9/11 truthers, "birthers" and many other sad types with a bee in their bonnet to spam and spin.

Fortunately with this particular one his reputation precede him everywhere...and his posts lack enough rigour to convince anyone serious

[HindleA]

FWIW Cooper has about as much compassion as an invisible wheelchair IMHO.

[Rebecca]

At least we have been spared the truly dreadful Sarah Vine swanning around no 10.

[danesclose]

Actually, the plan seems to have been executed fairly competently v Corbyn. Small group went first, 40 others or so weren't in on it, but agreed and followed. Heavyweights from the past joined in.

Competently???? Corbyn still in charge, 200,000 additional party members splitting on the most pessimistic estimate for Corbyn 80:20 in his favour. Jeez. I'd hate to see it when these people execute a plan incompetently.

But Corbyn didn't resign because he's unassailable among members because of people joining to support him.

Democracy, what a bastard, eh?

Ask yourself 2 things:

1. If he's so incompetent, why has the party membership increased by 200,000 in the last fortnight.
2. If the Labour Party would stop ripping itself to shreds, largely because elements of the party don't respect a democratic mandate, & instead was to galvanise all of these people getting involved in politics, how efficient an Opposition could they be, both inside Parliament & in the wider community?

This is Corbyn asking for loyalty from MPs? He's got the IDS problem. When you've attacked your own side so much, you're a dead duck as a leader.

Where were these members when they could have been contributed to the referendum effort? But they suddenly turn up when Corbyn is under pressure?

Call that democracy, if you like. I think that's dangerously close to a personality cult. To be clear, not accusing all or most Corbyn supporters of being that, but it's these extra ones who are keeping him in power. And given the complete mess the sectarian left get it into all the time, I'm not optimistic about all these members.

I don't accept it would be fine if everyone got behind him. I don't like his Article 50 call at all. If he's fluffing this crisis, when is he going to be any good?

Just in from work, so apologies for the delay in responding.

1. Corbyn asking for loyalty. Why not? Despite his reputation, Corbyn supported Blair & Brown's governments far more than he voted against, so I think its fair to ask for loyalty from the PLP. Its an established fact that people won't vote for parties they perceive as split. If the PLP are serious about forming a government they need to keep any arguments over policy etc away from the media. Pretty much what the Tories manage to do most of the time

2. Don't know where these members were when they could have been contributing to the referendum. Perhaps they were contributing to the referendum effort. Just because they weren't Labour members at the time doesn't mean they weren't out knocking on doors etc. Perhaps their experiences in the referendum led them to join the Labour party.

3. Still don't get your accusations of a "personality cult". My understanding, from the party members I've spoken to, both new & old, is that the people are annoyed about the efforts of a small number of people attempting to overthrow the democratic will of the members and also that there is a perceived arrogance amongst the PLP thinking that they know better than the members (including councillors & other elected officials) who spend their evenings & weekends getting the members of the PLP elected, knocking on doors & talking to people on the doorsteps.

4. Regarding the Article 50 call, as many people have said many times on this forum what alternative was there? The criteria of the referendum meant that there is no alternative to us leaving, no matter what you or I feel - the Tories will have to invoke it in September, and the longer we go on, the greater the uncertainty in European markets. Remember there are elections coming up in France & Germany mid 2017, meaning that the longer we delay invoking Article 50, the more likely it is that the people we are negotiating with would be less inclined to give us more favourable deals
Saying that he would ignore the vote would have lead to criticisms in certain quarters that he was "undemocratic".

Also to make it clear to the likes of SH, I am a long term party member & not by any stretch of the imagination a "Corbynista". As I said in an earlier post I voted for Cooper for leader & Eagle for deputy. My concern is that a social democratic party should pay heed to the democratic part of the name if they expect to have any legitimacy.

Like some others on here I need to take a break/cut down on my time here. Not for flouncy reasons, but due to moving elderly in-laws back to Ireland, getting twins back from Uni & supporting my son who's up in court for defending himself against a Britain First/EDL bonehead at a recent demonstration. For the benefit of any doubt I'm proud that he's prepared to stand up to these Fascists & help to drive them off the streets.

Slán go fóill

[SpinningHugo]

@SpinningHugo

Are you actually here to discuss any other issue apart from the Labour leadership?

I wouldn't mind so much if there was anything new to have come out today but there isn't.

I think that the fact that Labour is going through an existential crisis is the most interesting thing happening, other than the consequences of Brexit. It is a fascinating disaster for the left.

I came on to see whether any of the supporters of Corbyn could come up with any scenario where this turned out well. none did (all said that the PLP should knuckle under, none expected that to happen).

The Tory leadership is pretty dull by comparison. May v Leadsom? May is obviously going to win. She is a less charismatic Cameron. A decent labour leader would beat her, but we won't have one.

Chilcot was interesting, harsher on Blair than expected, but didn't tell us anything we didn't already know.

I have talked about Art 50 and Brexit a bit. I do know something about that.

[citizenJA]

No matter what side of the Labour Party you are on I would challenge you not to accept that the quality of the 4 Labour candidates was much better than the line up we saw for the Tories

I may not be a fan of Kendall and can't hide my continual disappointment in Cooper but their values seem to be so much higher

More compassionate, more egalitarian and more open

May, Gove, Leadsom, Fox, Crabb

What a motley crew that is! Liars, cheats, xenophobes, bigots.....

Yes, I agree with you there. Waiting for Tories to hatch a new leader is uncomfortable, speaking as a non-Tory party member, given they're current government. Some yahoo selected and boom. That's the new Prime Minister. Don't like it.

[refitman]

Corbyn's loyalty is to the small left group to which he belongs, not the PLP.

They're called the members of the Labour Party, Hugo. Rather more of them than the 'small right group' to which you belong.

But I think you are wrong in thinking this was a planned conspiracy.

Well, it's definitely difficult to believe it was "planned" for sure. Because, despite it being blatantly obvious from the get go that there were elements of the PLP gunning for this moment since the day the leadership result came in, there's scant evidence that they have a clue what they're doing. But, the "grown-ups" of the Party want to take back control. Hey ho.

Actually, there was talk of setting up an internal group to oppose him during the leadership election.

Shadow Cabinet MPs form ‘the Resistance’ group in anticipation of Corbyn win

A moderate Labour pressure group dubbed “the Resistance” is being formed by two top shadow cabinet members as Jeremy Corbyn pulls ahead in the leadership race, the Evening Standard can reveal.

Chuka Umunna and Tristram Hunt have written privately to Labour MPs calling on them to meet four days before the leadership result is announced. It is being seen by MPs as a rival to Mr Corbyn’s Left-wing platform and the start of guerrilla warfare for Labour’s soul.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics ... 33476.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's almost like they never even considered giving him a chance to lead the party.

[refitman]

..but surely he's the most useless Labour since the last one, how hard can it be?

Very. See this board. Lots and lots of those who voted for him are not prepared to admit their error, and a large number of activists have also joined the Labour party. But, the attempt must be made. it is that or just give up on there being anything other than a Tory government for decades.

He can't be beaten, and he's said nothing to suggest he has a sensible view about when he might step down. If he can't be kept off the ballot by legalistic means (which would lead to the cultists departing), things are very bad indeed.

Fuck me, that is so insulting. Are all 100k+ people who joined the party cultists? Or just the ones you don't like?

[tinyclanger2]

To be completely honest, I would rather Hugo was able to post and be ignored by the people he annoys, rather than responded to rudely.
Perhaps I'm having a politeness crisis, but there you go.

[howsillyofme1]

FWIW Cooper has about as much compassion as an invisible wheelchair IMHO.

It is all relative

[mbc1955]

To be completely honest, I would rather Hugo was able to post and be ignored by the people he annoys, rather than responded to rudely.
Perhaps I'm having a politeness crisis, but there you go.

I respect your opinion but given how cumulatively rude Hugo is over the course of a day, I believe that rudeness should remain an option to be deployed at need.

[SpinningHugo]

To be completely honest, I would rather Hugo was able to post and be ignored by the people he annoys, rather than responded to rudely.
Perhaps I'm having a politeness crisis, but there you go.

I respect your opinion but given how cumulatively rude Hugo is over the course of a day, I believe that rudeness should remain an option to be deployed at need.

Being perfectly serious, I am not trying to be rude. What have I said that is offensive?

I can quite understand that I may be persistent and annoying, but how am I rude?

[tinyclanger2]

edited - because I misread!

[Tubby Isaacs]

Very. See this board. Lots and lots of those who voted for him are not prepared to admit their error, and a large number of activists have also joined the Labour party. But, the attempt must be made. it is that or just give up on there being anything other than a Tory government for decades.

He can't be beaten, and he's said nothing to suggest he has a sensible view about when he might step down. If he can't be kept off the ballot by legalistic means (which would lead to the cultists departing), things are very bad indeed.

Fuck me, that is so insulting. Are all 100k+ people who joined the party cultists? Or just the ones you don't like?

The ones who've just signed up to support Corbyn are pretty close to being cultists. And some of the new members since his nomination are too. There are enough of them to be a right nuisance.

[mbc1955]

To be completely honest, I would rather Hugo was able to post and be ignored by the people he annoys, rather than responded to rudely.
Perhaps I'm having a politeness crisis, but there you go.

I respect your opinion but given how cumulatively rude Hugo is over the course of a day, I believe that rudeness should remain an option to be deployed at need.

Being perfectly serious, I am not trying to be rude. What have I said that is offensive?

I can quite understand that I may be persistent and annoying, but how am I rude?

Your persistent stating and restating of the same point, over and over again.

Your inability to accept answers given to you as answers.

Your insistence that people who reply in a way you don't like haven't actually answered your questions

Your continual categorisation of people according to your demons when there is no evidence that you are in any way accurate and where there is positive evidence that people on this site who disagree with your opinions are not cultists, hard left, impractical left

Your refusal to accept others people's opinions

Your constant switching of tack whenever someone comes up with a reply you can't instantly dismiss.

Your hijack of this forum to debate your own, highly prejudiced opinions.

You don't swear, but the overwhelming effect of your posts is rude in the extreme. The fact you can't see your own behaviour is evidence of everything I've been saying. Look at when I slagged off your inability to understand that people have different opinions from you: you thought you were being complimented!

[tinyclanger2]

To be completely honest, I would rather Hugo was able to post and be ignored by the people he annoys, rather than responded to rudely.
Perhaps I'm having a politeness crisis, but there you go.

I respect your opinion but given how cumulatively rude Hugo is over the course of a day, I believe that rudeness should remain an option to be deployed at need.

Just saying - not a big deal.

And now to other matters ....

http://www.cityam.com/245024/senior-tor ... lan-around" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Failure to plan for Leave vote "disappointing"

[citizenJA]

http://www.cityam.com/245024/senior-tor ... lan-around

Failure to plan for Leave vote "disappointing"

Oh, isn't that the truth.

So farewell then, Michael Gove. You were right about one thing
Marina Hyde

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... t-78458314" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Interspersed throughout below the line good posts lacerating the Tory party
The article itself is good too.

[ephemerid]

To be completely honest, I would rather Hugo was able to post and be ignored by the people he annoys, rather than responded to rudely.
Perhaps I'm having a politeness crisis, but there you go.

I respect your opinion but given how cumulatively rude Hugo is over the course of a day, I believe that rudeness should remain an option to be deployed at need.

Being perfectly serious, I am not trying to be rude. What have I said that is offensive?

I can quite understand that I may be persistent and annoying, but how am I rude?

You do here exactly what you do elsewhere.

You know what is offensive because people point it out to you.

You choose to continue to ignore what people say to you.

You are patronising, rude, offensive, and very very tedious.

Those who have posted that you have hijacked the past few days' threads are absolutely right.

This is not the first time - you do it every single bloody time.

Next - vague apology and a promise to stay away ....... until next time.

I will take the advice of others and not respond to you again. Then this will become your very own echo chamber.

[tinyclanger2]

http://www.markpack.org.uk/142037/artic ... eferendum/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In other words, Article 50(3) offers a route to negotiating a precise exit deal for Britain and then holding a referendum which either implements it or decides to keep Britain in the EU.

That is particularly pertinent because the Brexit camp is deeply split. There are those who want to cut immigration even at the expense of Britain not having free trade with the rest of the EU, and those who want to preserve that free trade even if it means not cutting immigration.

Which means that when an exact deal has been negotiated, it is quite possible we will see large swings in public opinion – and thanks to Article 50(3) those could then be played out in a referendum.

Looks interesting.

[Tubby Isaacs]

1. Corbyn asking for loyalty. Why not? Despite his reputation, Corbyn supported Blair & Brown's governments far more than he voted against, so I think its fair to ask for loyalty from the PLP. Its an established fact that people won't vote for parties they perceive as split. If the PLP are serious about forming a government they need to keep any arguments over policy etc away from the media. Pretty much what the Tories manage to do most of the time

2. Don't know where these members were when they could have been contributing to the referendum. Perhaps they were contributing to the referendum effort. Just because they weren't Labour members at the time doesn't mean they weren't out knocking on doors etc. Perhaps their experiences in the referendum led them to join the Labour party.

3. Still don't get your accusations of a "personality cult". My understanding, from the party members I've spoken to, both new & old, is that the people are annoyed about the efforts of a small number of people attempting to overthrow the democratic will of the members and also that there is a perceived arrogance amongst the PLP thinking that they know better than the members (including councillors & other elected officials) who spend their evenings & weekends getting the members of the PLP elected, knocking on doors & talking to people on the doorsteps.

4. Regarding the Article 50 call, as many people have said many times on this forum what alternative was there? The criteria of the referendum meant that there is no alternative to us leaving, no matter what you or I feel - the Tories will have to invoke it in September, and the longer we go on, the greater the uncertainty in European markets. Remember there are elections coming up in France & Germany mid 2017, meaning that the longer we delay invoking Article 50, the more likely it is that the people we are negotiating with would be less inclined to give us more favourable deals
Saying that he would ignore the vote would have lead to criticisms in certain quarters that he was "undemocratic".

Also to make it clear to the likes of SH, I am a long term party member & not by any stretch of the imagination a "Corbynista". As I said in an earlier post I voted for Cooper for leader & Eagle for deputy. My concern is that a social democratic party should pay heed to the democratic part of the name if they expect to have any legitimacy.

Like some others on here I need to take a break/cut down on my time here. Not for flouncy reasons, but due to moving elderly in-laws back to Ireland, getting twins back from Uni & supporting my son who's up in court for defending himself against a Britain First/EDL bonehead at a recent demonstration. For the benefit of any doubt I'm proud that he's prepared to stand up to these Fascists & help to drive them off the streets.

Slán go fóill

Sorry to hear about your son. You can be proud of him indeed.

I don't think France and Germany want Britain gone from the EU. As for elections, wouldn't it play quite well for them v their Eurosceptics if the UK had had very obvious second thoughts and not gone? If we do article 50, then their elections will come round, with us on the way out and confidently predicting a fabulous trade deal, and controls on Poles, and all the rest. I don't think this is what Merkel and Hollander will want.

I think it's unlikely these very recent arrivals were near the referendum campaign, because the EU isn't Corbyn's thing. And who could be inspired by that campaign, or Corbyn rushing out of the EU?

IDS doubtless voted with Major most of the time. But he couldn't lead because the disloyalty was remembered. Corbyn has been far more rebellious than IDS.

[howsillyofme1]

He can't be beaten, and he's said nothing to suggest he has a sensible view about when he might step down. If he can't be kept off the ballot by legalistic means (which would lead to the cultists departing), things are very bad indeed.

Fuck me, that is so insulting. Are all 100k+ people who joined the party cultists? Or just the ones you don't like?

The ones who've just signed up to support Corbyn are pretty close to being cultists. And some of the new members since his nomination are too. There are enough of them to be a right nuisance.

If these are cultists what about the people who came out of student politics 25 years ago and who have created a web of influence in thinktanks and in the SPAD network

I know quite a few of these from my times at university and my involvement in the Labour society there....two of out alumni went on to be influential in the Blairite years....one of them even had a bit of a high profile arrest!

These people are still about and there are close links between them MPs, journalists and various others across parties of all colours

They usually have the 'liberal' interventionist approach - pro-Iraq, pro-Israel, pro-US - neoconservative

One of the journalists linked to them was mentioned yesterday and quoted in support of Blair.

[Tubby Isaacs]

If this referendum was a bad idea (as most seem to think), wasn't it then a serious misjudgement for Corbyn to have supported one?

Yes. I find it very difficult to trust the judgement of someone who wanted Brexit for a long time, even if they changed their mind at the last minute.

Yep.

And purely in terms of strategic judgement, what did he do to prepare for the Referendum? I didn't see very much.

[tinyclanger2]

https://www.theguardian.com/science/201 ... to-the-oed" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The newest quarterly update to the Oxford English Dictionary finds space for 1,000 new words, including l8r, deffo and glamping

v pleasing.

[howsillyofme1]

http://www.markpack.org.uk/142037/artic ... eferendum/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In other words, Article 50(3) offers a route to negotiating a precise exit deal for Britain and then holding a referendum which either implements it or decides to keep Britain in the EU.

That is particularly pertinent because the Brexit camp is deeply split. There are those who want to cut immigration even at the expense of Britain not having free trade with the rest of the EU, and those who want to preserve that free trade even if it means not cutting immigration.

Which means that when an exact deal has been negotiated, it is quite possible we will see large swings in public opinion – and thanks to Article 50(3) those could then be played out in a referendum.

Looks interesting.

Well we are looking at at least 2 years in the future and there will be all the uncertainty of the negotiation

It is not at all A50 that sets out the possibility of the referendum, it just sets out the deadline for the talks...all the rest is conjecture about what the future state will be.

There is no guarantee there will be any extension (this has to be unanimous) and the more that people are in denial now and try to delay A50 invocation the less likely is that this will pass.

This undermines the arguments for an unnecessary delay in invocation of A50

This also looks at one part of the negotiation is isolation. If you look at all the documentation and opinion from experts around this there are many, many hurdles to overcome including ratification of deals etc that will come back and hurt us

Leave is a disaster for the UK, and these theoretical ways around it are interesting but they will need the support of the next Tory Brexit committed PM

I am sorry to be so challenging on all these options to stop us leaving but whilst the Tories (under May or Leadsom - both committed to Brexit) are in power with the referendum behind them then the chances are remote

Thanks Cameron!

[citizenJA]

Goodnight, everyone
love,
cJA

[tinyclanger2]

I actually think a referendum on the negotiated deal is quite a reasonable requirement - and this is where the progressive movement of the left could usefully work together to minimise the evil workings of the undead.

[SpinningHugo]

Funny really because I have been on message boards for years and it is only here, and before that CiF where anyone has said I'm rude.

Reading back through today, my judgment is that I am far from the worst offender, but there we are.

I could give an explanation of why this is, But no doubt that would be rude.

[tinyclanger2]

He added: “There may be a case later for putting the negotiation to the people, but we do that on the basis of the case for that, not on the basis that they got it wrong on 23 June.”
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... -oona-king" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(from a different source - but similar thinking)

[tinyclanger2]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 24961.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Perhaps it's just me (and apologies for lowering the tone) but I think someone should have a word with Lagarde vis a vis sunbeds.

[howsillyofme1]

If this referendum was a bad idea (as most seem to think), wasn't it then a serious misjudgement for Corbyn to have supported one?

Yes. I find it very difficult to trust the judgement of someone who wanted Brexit for a long time, even if they changed their mind at the last minute.

Yep.

And purely in terms of strategic judgement, what did he do to prepare for the Referendum? I didn't see very much.

And Blair's strategic judgement about Iraq?

You seem to be getting a bit desperate now Tubby

I think we get it that you don't like him......the party has a democratic process for changing the leader. Let it be done

And when you look at May and Leadsom can you explain to me what qualities have put them on the brink of PM that Corbyn doesn't have?

May was such a great support to us all in the Remain camp wasn't she - seeing how pleased Cameron on when she 'pretended' to be for Remain? ANd she has declared vociferously that Brext means Brexit....so Prime Ministerial to leave us in no doubt what she thinks?

So we have the probable next PM who possibly lied over the side she chose and way she voted, did nothing, and I mean nothing for the campaign, has demonstrated xenophobic and homophobic tendencies...but hey she isn't Corbyn

[PorFavor]

Andrea Leadsom makes my blood run cold. Should she win, I expect Iain Smith to make a big comeback. Did anyone else here see that horrible grimace (or was it a smile?) which crossed his face when the ballot result was declared? I have a horrible feeling that those two are kindred spirits.

[howsillyofme1]

He added: “There may be a case later for putting the negotiation to the people, but we do that on the basis of the case for that, not on the basis that they got it wrong on 23 June.”
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... -oona-king" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(from a different source - but similar thinking)

It is but it is still conjecture

What will the binary question be

Do you accept the deal?

Do you reject the deal?

How does that keep us in the EU....we can't ask three questions?

[tinyclanger2]

He added: “There may be a case later for putting the negotiation to the people, but we do that on the basis of the case for that, not on the basis that they got it wrong on 23 June.”
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... -oona-king" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(from a different source - but similar thinking)

It is but it is still conjecture

What will the binary question be

Do you accept the deal?

Do you reject the deal?

How does that keep us in the EU....we can't ask three questions?

Does it have to be a binary choice? - I seem to recall a discussion about putting greater devolution as a third option on the Scottish referendum.

[howsillyofme1]

He added: “There may be a case later for putting the negotiation to the people, but we do that on the basis of the case for that, not on the basis that they got it wrong on 23 June.”
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... -oona-king" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(from a different source - but similar thinking)

It is but it is still conjecture

What will the binary question be

Do you accept the deal?

Do you reject the deal?

How does that keep us in the EU....we can't ask three questions?

Does it have to be a binary choice? - I seem to recall a discussion about putting greater devolution as a third option on the Scottish referendum.

I suppose you could ask the first question as a repeat of the last refrendum and then if that says Leave then ask if you accept the deal or not - seems a bit clunky but there may be something that works

Don't see it happening myself but can't say for certain

[tinyclanger2]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 25711.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
uselessness upon uselessness.

With the Brits voting for Tories time after time we have no chance anyway.

[tinyclanger2]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... -market-eu
Van Rompuy: UK must accept free movement to stay in single market

YEAH WE KNOW!

(sorry am I shouting?)

[howsillyofme1]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... -market-eu
Van Rompuy: UK must accept free movement to stay in single market

YEAH WE KNOW!

(sorry am I shouting?)

The Tories don't seem to get it though....

[HindleA]

http://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/di ... -wrag-cut/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Disability employment gap: Experts demolish government excuses for WRAG cut

[HindleA]

Bloody hell just been reminded the Schumacher flying goalie takeout of Battiston was 34 years ago.

[Rebecca]

The ones who've just signed up to support Corbyn are pretty close to being cultists. And some of the new members since his nomination are too. There are enough of them to be a right nuisance.

Sorry but is this Jess Phillips in disguise??????

Tubby,you have no evidence that people who vote for Corbyn are 'cultists'.
In fact it is fucking offensive.
They are all people,and also voters.
Because they vote for someone you dislike does not make them members of a cult.
You are letting yourself down here,I know you are better than this.
Unless,as Freedom says,you are in fact Jess Phillips,in which case as you were.

[tinybgoat]

Very. See this board. Lots and lots of those who voted for him are not prepared to admit their error, and a large number of activists have also joined the Labour party. But, the attempt must be made. it is that or just give up on there being anything other than a Tory government for decades.

Dear Aunt Hugo,
I bought a car last year,(nice little red one)
I'm reasonably happy with said car
It does all I want at the moment,
though admittedly i've only gone for local drives,
and am not sure how it will handle on longer journeys.
I've recently been contacted (cold calling) by a large number of salespeople, telling me my car is unsuitable, and I should dump it and buy another one.
Thing is none of them will specify what's wrong with my car, or give any details about these 'better cars'.
They're now saying I'm behaving unreasonably.
What should I do?

(I have to admit I don't drive, so this may not be a good analogy, but something similar worked for one button monkey)

Before you go any further, Mr/Ms. Goat, please reflect upon the following:

1. You are guilty of not admitting your error. Your car is red, and it is an error to have a red car. In fact, it is strictly verboten to have anything that is in any way red. This includes cars, thoughts, ideas, and political party leaders (especially ones called Ed or Jeremy).

2. You are guilty of asking for advice when the thing you are required to do is be told what sort of car you should buy. Even if you have a pink car, or maybe a yellow one, you are assumed to have a red car. This is an error. (See above)

3. You are guilty of writing to an Agonising Aunt who has only one interest, viz: to ban all red cars and have them removed from public view. This is to be achieved by what is unknown to anyone on the planet as gentle arguing, which is not an error.

Finally - every day you must admit your error and agree, by dint of endless circular arguments (which are gentle), to dispose of your red car and replace it with one which will be recommended to you by someone who knows for a fact before the red car is even on the road that it will not drive well and will cause no end of problems for the entire world for ever.

Buy a blue one.

Thank you for the kind & wise advice,
I will retire to consider and meditate upon your words,
but just to clear up any lingering doubts,
although It's not uncommon for goats to be hermaphrodites, and I can see that 'tiny billy goat' could be open to speculation,
I'm fairly sure I'm a Mr Goat.
Well I've always been reasonably convinced, until now.
Hmm, so many unanswered questions.

[JonnyT1234]

Guesses for how long Osborne survives as chancellor, or even as a front bencher, anyone? May despises him, does she not, and presumably Leadsom isn't at all keen following the dire campaign he ran in the referendum...

[HindleA]

I didn't read it like that at all,just the stating of the impression of symbolic myth personification effects,knowledge/experience of previous periods of Labour Party history certainly suggest the similar loss of sense and sensibilities-both ways.

[tinyclanger2]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/t ... 01cbdbbe29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
missed this at the time - is v late but quite interesting.
82% of newspaper coverage was for Leave