Sat 9 and Sun 10 July 2016

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 09 Jul, 2016 8:41 pm

Dog almighty:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 28751.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Andrea Leadsom: EU single market ‘is no longer a relevant term’
‘All we actually need to do is continue as before’

Maybe someone could mention to her an easier way to do that than her chosen path ...

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 09 Jul, 2016 8:46 pm

Alan Matthews ‏@hazmatt72 2h2 hours ago

Anyone else noticed that those on Labour right who (wrongly) claim Corbyn won due to £3 supporters never say that about Watson?

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 09 Jul, 2016 8:47 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:Dog almighty:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 28751.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Andrea Leadsom: EU single market ‘is no longer a relevant term’
‘All we actually need to do is continue as before’
Maybe someone could mention to her an easier way to do that than her chosen path ...

You can see why it was said of her that she was the worst Treasury minister ever - she'd be an absolute disaster as a PM.

You can also see why there are people out there jeering at Labour all the time - their own party is such a car crash right now it helps them to cope.

GetYou · Post by **GetYou** » Sat 09 Jul, 2016 8:47 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Good question. I don't know what Eagle's position is.

Michael Collins wrote:I think you've got a fine looking flying machine there, Eagle, despite the fact you're upside down.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 09 Jul, 2016 8:53 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:The silly thing is, I used to think Eagle was OK and wasn't very sure about Corbyn.....

I'm not sure of anything now.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 09 Jul, 2016 8:56 pm

PorFavor wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:The silly thing is, I used to think Eagle was OK and wasn't very sure about Corbyn.....
I'm not sure of anything now.

Are eggs eggs?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 09 Jul, 2016 8:57 pm

I never have been.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 09 Jul, 2016 8:58 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:The silly thing is, I used to think Eagle was OK and wasn't very sure about Corbyn.....
I'm not sure of anything now.
Are eggs eggs?

I'm not sure . . .

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 09 Jul, 2016 9:19 pm

Leadsom's Tips ‏@LeadsomsTips 1h1 hour ago

Do you like reading your kids a fairytale before bedtime? I recommend you take a look at my CV #MumsKnowBest

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 09 Jul, 2016 9:30 pm

EU referendum: youth turnout almost twice as high as first thought
About 64% of registered voters aged 18-24 went to polls, study reveals, but 90% of over-65s voted
(Guardian)

Interesting read.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... ce-as-high

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 09 Jul, 2016 9:32 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
It needs fighting, like Tim Farron says he will.

It goes without saying Cameron is most culpable. But Corbyn wanted a referendum too. (As did the Lib Dems but they at least won their stripes back on this issue in the Coalition)
Except that if we'd had the referendum in the last parliament, before the refugee crisis, Remain might have had a much better chance of winning. And I don't think Corbyn changed his position any later than the LibDems, did he?

I have seen nothing to change my opinion that Farron is a bad joke. He has presided over further falls in LibDem popularity from the low of Clegg support. He leads the only party with an unalloyed pro-EU position and still couldn't get more than 70% of supporters to vote Remain. It's easy for him to say he will fight against Brexit because to do so will not really lose him any (more) support, and no-one cares what he thinks. In any case, have we forgotten what Farron and his party inflicted on us in the last parliament so quickly? Do we hate Corbyn that much?

They've got not many voters in Scotland or London, the big Remain areas. I think 70% is very decent.

Of course it's easier for them to oppose and Labour would need to be more careful about how it went about defying the referendum. But Corbyn and all did that with the 1975 Referendum pretty quickly so he's had practice.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 09 Jul, 2016 9:44 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
It needs fighting, like Tim Farron says he will.

It goes without saying Cameron is most culpable. But Corbyn wanted a referendum too. (As did the Lib Dems but they at least won their stripes back on this issue in the Coalition)
Except that if we'd had the referendum in the last parliament, before the refugee crisis, Remain might have had a much better chance of winning. And I don't think Corbyn changed his position any later than the LibDems, did he?

I have seen nothing to change my opinion that Farron is a bad joke. He has presided over further falls in LibDem popularity from the low of Clegg support. He leads the only party with an unalloyed pro-EU position and still couldn't get more than 70% of supporters to vote Remain. It's easy for him to say he will fight against Brexit because to do so will not really lose him any (more) support, and no-one cares what he thinks. In any case, have we forgotten what Farron and his party inflicted on us in the last parliament so quickly? Do we hate Corbyn that much?
They've got not many voters in Scotland or London, the big Remain areas. I think 70% is very decent.

Of course it's easier for them to oppose and Labour would need to be more careful about how it went about defying the referendum. But Corbyn and all did that with the 1975 Referendum pretty quickly so he's had practice.

Labour hasn't got many voters in Scotland either - thanks to the Jim Murphy-inspired Labour

If you find the LD 70% very decent then Labour's 63% must be seen as fantastic - despite the high Leave in places such as South Wales (Stephen Kinnock) and the Midlands (Emma Reynolds, Jess Phillips)

Shame those MPs who are always the first to attack Corbyn were not able to make a persuasive argument to their own constituents - mind you seeing how disconnected a lot of them seem from their constituency parties perhaps that explains something

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 09 Jul, 2016 9:54 pm

I know I've said this before, but the single most important thing any politician or politically aware person can do right now is listen. Put aside firmly held beliefs. They may no longer have relevance. Draw breath. Listen. And think.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 09 Jul, 2016 9:57 pm

Oh, and mentioning Scotland has just reminded me

One of the things that makes Labour unlikely to form the next Government, or any in the near future, is the loss of a large number of MPs from north of the border

I know a lot of Scots (having lived there), and despite liking Corbyn personally, the brand of Scottish Labour is in the pits and is still seen as being to the right. Dugdale is trying to make some changes but she really is on a hiding to nothing

The loss of Scotland was nothing to do with Corbyn......

Do you think any Labour leader will win sufficient seats to win a majority, SNP coupled with the Tory destruction of the LD in the South?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 09 Jul, 2016 10:03 pm

What's Stephen Kinnock got to do with anything? It's not his fault lots of people think the EU are shutting the steelworks down. See also Teesside.

Labour racks up votes in London. Its population is 2.5 times Wales.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 09 Jul, 2016 10:03 pm

George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 3m3 minutes ago

NEC will decide: Whether Corbyn's on the ballot - Cut-off date for voting - Registered supporter fee (may not be £3).

Make it high enough to make the obvious trolls think twice about whether they really want to fork out hard cash for it.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 09 Jul, 2016 10:06 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:Oh, and mentioning Scotland has just reminded me

One of the things that makes Labour unlikely to form the next Government, or any in the near future, is the loss of a large number of MPs from north of the border

I know a lot of Scots (having lived there), and despite liking Corbyn personally, the brand of Scottish Labour is in the pits and is still seen as being to the right. Dugdale is trying to make some changes but she really is on a hiding to nothing

The loss of Scotland was nothing to do with Corbyn......

Do you think any Labour leader will win sufficient seats to win a majority, SNP coupled with the Tory destruction of the LD in the South?

Corbyn was sold as winning back Scotland. It's not his fault but he can't. I'm not sure what we're left with.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 09 Jul, 2016 10:14 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:What's Stephen Kinnock got to do with anything? It's not his fault lots of people think the EU are shutting the steelworks down. See also Teesside.

Labour racks up votes in London. Its population is 2.5 times Wales.

Port Talbot voted significantly for Leave....does the local MP have no role in explaining why the EU is good for the local area? If the people believe such nonsense then surely such a scion of a beloved family can convince them otherwise....or is it just more convenient to blame Corbyn.....the same can go for Reynold's in Wolves NE where she is disliked and is hardly ever seen....... Not one person that I know in the area saw her trying to canvass for the Remain campaign

Seems that it is never the fault of the PLP....but Corbyn is to blame for everything

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 09 Jul, 2016 10:18 pm

Assuming the support per party was based on the 2015 General Election, about 2.3 million out of 9.4m Labour voters were in London and Scotland (even post Murphy). That sounds like a lot living in the most Remainer places.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 09 Jul, 2016 10:30 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:Oh, and mentioning Scotland has just reminded me

One of the things that makes Labour unlikely to form the next Government, or any in the near future, is the loss of a large number of MPs from north of the border

I know a lot of Scots (having lived there), and despite liking Corbyn personally, the brand of Scottish Labour is in the pits and is still seen as being to the right. Dugdale is trying to make some changes but she really is on a hiding to nothing

The loss of Scotland was nothing to do with Corbyn......

Do you think any Labour leader will win sufficient seats to win a majority, SNP coupled with the Tory destruction of the LD in the South?
Corbyn was sold as winning back Scotland. It's not his fault but he can't. I'm not sure what we're left with.

Labour cannot win an election outright with any leader now...the press is vehemently hostile as they know a Labour PM from Miliband and left would take some action against them based on Leveson

There is no real possibility of a recovery in Scotland and the Tories have the old LD seats

The belief that the PLP has seems to be that mirroring the Tories is the only way to go - a complete misreading of how Blair won in 1997.

If you want to chase after the votes of those who vote Tory then you can count me out....the policies they want are petty and unpleasant - it is these people who formed the bedrock of the Leave vote as well....despite it being sold as the Labour heartlands, the actually bulk of the Leave votes came from these 'target' Tory seats

What should be targeted is getting back those 10-15% of voters who stopped voting Labour after Iraq....and those younger ones who are just coming to start

As most of us have said here, time and time and time again, Corbyn does not have the ideal profile as a candidate. What he does have however are principles and policies that do appeal to a large number of people. I imagine his belief is that the PLP want to go backwards and he is doing everything in his power to stop that

The Blair years hollowed out a lot of the left in the years prior to 2010 and so the potential leaders that Corbyn could trust to keep the direction of travel are not yet there or ready to take over

I have no particular gripe against Eagle and think she is a reasonable cabinet level performer. Her voting record though is unacceptable for me to consider supporting her (never mind her behaviour now) and so the vote will go to Corbyn.

If the PLP had held off then perhaps someone would have appeared who could have taken over but their opportunism has made them make this catastrophic error

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 09 Jul, 2016 10:33 pm

Emma Reynolds had 4.5% swing to her last time. That's Miliband in Number 10 territory, and in the generally awful West Midlands results. I don't have any great opinion of her but if everyone hates her, they've a funny way of showing it.

TR'sGhost · Post by **TR'sGhost** » Sat 09 Jul, 2016 10:36 pm

fedup59 wrote:competition

What works of literature/ music/ films would you use to define our current political situation (or elements thereof)?

I offer

PLP leadership challenge - waiting for Godot

As a starter

For the "we're Boris and Mike, we're running the Leave campaign but for our career's sake hope you'll vote Remain" team I suggest Ed Wood's bid at making the worst film of all time, "Plan 9 From Outer Space".

For those not familiar with this masterpiece, it's a low budget sci-fi/horror film originally titled ”Grave Robbers From Outer Space" that was released in 1959 to almost universal indifference. It starred Bela Lugosi, who died during the early stages of filming and was replaced by Tom Mason, Mrs Wood's chiropracter. Who had zero experience of acting and didn't even vaguely resemble Lugosi. The surreal quality is aided by the endless chain of continuity errors, dreadful script, dreadful plot and the feeling they were making it up as they went along while hoping no-one would notice.

Half way through, the film, having run out of ideas, suddenly goes "surprise!" and changes plot with the kind of smoothness train crashes are known for.

If you've not seen it, don't let me put you off a viewing. Just remember that it's an hour and a half of your life you'll never get back .

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 09 Jul, 2016 10:39 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Assuming the support per party was based on the 2015 General Election, about 2.3 million out of 9.4m Labour voters were in London and Scotland (even post Murphy). That sounds like a lot living in the most Remainer places.

What is your point here?

Labour managed to get its vote out for remain in London which is great and outperformed in the other areas according to Curtice

He did a whole article that shows that Labour actually did better than was expected on previous estimates and strong labour areas out performed their weaker ones

The people who voted Leave were those who have stopped voting in General Elections, about a third of all parties except for UKIP (not surprisingly) and the Tories who were much higher

It was Cameron who could not deliver his party......and his failure to do so is one of the big reasons for Leave

But, again I say this, he has swanned off and is being complimented by Labour MPs....shows how much they care about Remain....or are they secretly happy it lost so they can pay student games in their own party

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 09 Jul, 2016 10:43 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Emma Reynolds had 4.5% swing to her last time. That's Miliband in Number 10 territory, and in the generally awful West Midlands results. I don't have any great opinion of her but if everyone hates her, they've a funny way of showing it.

Really!!!

Do you really think they voted for her? Or perhaps they voted for the Labour Party

Know the constituency at all?

She got a swing because of the negative swing in 2010 and she is still well below that of the previous incumbent. The turnout is woeful as well

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 09 Jul, 2016 10:49 pm

TR'sGhost wrote: For the "we're Boris and Mike, we're running the Leave campaign but for our career's sake hope you'll vote Remain" team I suggest Ed Wood's bid at making the worst film of all time, "Plan 9 From Outer Space".

For those not familiar with this masterpiece, it's a low budget sci-fi/horror film originally titled ”Grave Robbers From Outer Space" that was released in 1959 to almost universal indifference. It starred Bela Lugosi, who died during the early stages of filming and was replaced by Tom Mason, Mrs Wood's chiropracter. Who had zero experience of acting and didn't even vaguely resemble Lugosi. The surreal quality is aided by the endless chain of continuity errors, dreadful script, dreadful plot and the feeling they were making it up as they went along while hoping no-one would notice.

Half way through, the film, having run out of ideas, suddenly goes "surprise!" and changes plot with the kind of smoothness train crashes are known for.

If you've not seen it, don't let me put you off a viewing. Just remember that it's an hour and a half of your life you'll never get back .

There was a book on really bad films called the Golden Turkey Awards and the Scala cinema in London did several seasons with the best (or worst) of them including Plan 9 and other such classics as The Swarm, Attack of the 50 foot Woman, Glen or Glenda, Godzilla versus the Smog Monster, Attack of the Killer Tomatoes etc.

I went nearly every night...

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 09 Jul, 2016 10:50 pm

Someone already did it the other day - Brexit, the Italian job "you were only supposed to blow the bloody doors off"

TR'sGhost · Post by **TR'sGhost** » Sat 09 Jul, 2016 10:56 pm

"Killer Tomatoes" isn't really in the same category as the rest, it was made with the intention it should be ridiculous. Which disqualifies it in my opinion.

The later (original Japanese) Godzilla movies are certainly something uniquely special.

For truly, spectacularly bad "Night of the Lepus", also known as "Rabbits" takes some beating. A highpoint being when the local sherrif tells the audience at a drive-through cinema words to the effect that "hordes of giant killer rabbits are coming this way" and isn't laughed by the locals into an early retirement on medical grounds.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 09 Jul, 2016 11:02 pm

"Scanners" goes a long way to describing how I feel half the time.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 09 Jul, 2016 11:28 pm

Prescient Washington Post article from September last year.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/eu ... story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

LONDON — After unexpected political charisma and cunning propelled him to another term as Britain’s prime minister, David Cameron will now need every ounce of those skills to avoid going down in history with an altogether different title: founding father of Little England.

Hobiejoe · Post by **Hobiejoe** » Sat 09 Jul, 2016 11:30 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
TR'sGhost wrote: For the "we're Boris and Mike, we're running the Leave campaign but for our career's sake hope you'll vote Remain" team I suggest Ed Wood's bid at making the worst film of all time, "Plan 9 From Outer Space".

For those not familiar with this masterpiece, it's a low budget sci-fi/horror film originally titled ”Grave Robbers From Outer Space" that was released in 1959 to almost universal indifference. It starred Bela Lugosi, who died during the early stages of filming and was replaced by Tom Mason, Mrs Wood's chiropracter. Who had zero experience of acting and didn't even vaguely resemble Lugosi. The surreal quality is aided by the endless chain of continuity errors, dreadful script, dreadful plot and the feeling they were making it up as they went along while hoping no-one would notice.

Half way through, the film, having run out of ideas, suddenly goes "surprise!" and changes plot with the kind of smoothness train crashes are known for.

If you've not seen it, don't let me put you off a viewing. Just remember that it's an hour and a half of your life you'll never get back .
There was a book on really bad films called the Golden Turkey Awards and the Scala cinema in London did several seasons with the best (or worst) of them including Plan 9 and other such classics as The Swarm, Attack of the 50 foot Woman, Glen or Glenda, Godzilla versus the Smog Monster, Attack of the Killer Tomatoes etc.

I went nearly every night...

We visited Paul Allen's EMP in Seattle a few years ago. It's amazing what you can build to house your collection of music memorabilia (including the Strat that Hendrix played The Star Spangled Banner at Woodstock on) and Sci-Fi curios when you're a billionaire. But, along with the big coat/cloak from the Matrix, Kirk's chair from the TV series (with tribbles) and a few other bits and pieces, he also has the flying saucer from Plan 9. Google is your friend, I'm too busy to link just now...

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 09 Jul, 2016 11:33 pm

BRavE~~heart~~XIT:

Alex Salmond - “truly important,”
the Guardian giving “full rein to a toxic xen~~Angl~~ophobia”.
the Economist “xenophobic and historically preposterous”
American Spectator as “an anti-E~~nglish~~uropean diatribe”
the Independent as “linked to a rise in anti-E~~nglish~~uropean prejudice”.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sat 09 Jul, 2016 11:36 pm

fedup59 wrote:competition

What works of literature/ music/ films would you use to define our current political situation (or elements thereof)?

I offer

PLP leadership challenge - waiting for Godot

As a starter

Doesn't define situation,
but instead of launching anything monday,
would like to see Angela Eagle, sing Desperado by The Eagles.

(Desperado, why don't you come to your senses ...etc )

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 09 Jul, 2016 11:39 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... y-mps-talk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;?
Tory and Labour MPs have held informal discussions about establishing a new political party in the event of Andrea Leadsom becoming prime minister and Jeremy Corbyn staying as Labour leader, a cabinet minister has disclosed.

Perhaps it is late in the day, and I'll regret this in the morning, but I wonder if this might be a good thing. Loathsome could signal the end of the Tories as we know them and Labour can't go on as it is, and Corbyn has *coughs* of steel and might actually withstand the press to get the more left left somewhere useful.

GetYou · Post by **GetYou** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 12:03 am

fedup59 wrote:competition

What works of literature/ music/ films would you use to define our current political situation (or elements thereof)?

I offer PLP leadership challenge - waiting for Godot

As a starter

Brazil (Terry Gilliam)

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 12:06 am

Incidentally, I haven't yet seen any of the "free speech at all costs no matter how much it offends" crowd rushing to Andrea Leadsom's defence...funny that.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 12:12 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... y-mps-talk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;?
Tory and Labour MPs have held informal discussions about establishing a new political party in the event of Andrea Leadsom becoming prime minister and Jeremy Corbyn staying as Labour leader, a cabinet minister has disclosed.
Perhaps it is late in the day, and I'll regret this in the morning, but I wonder if this might be a good thing. Loathsome could signal the end of the Tories as we know them and Labour can't go on as it is, and Corbyn has *coughs* of steel and might actually withstand the press to get the more left left somewhere useful.

Pro-EU, socially liberal and entirely comfortable with 'public sector reform' i.e. shipping everything out to the private sector since they clearly do it better.

They'd probably pick up the Orange Book Liberals too - what's left of them that is...

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 12:17 am

TR'sGhost wrote:
fedup59 wrote:competition

What works of literature/ music/ films would you use to define our current political situation (or elements thereof)?

I offer

PLP leadership challenge - waiting for Godot

As a starter
For the "we're Boris and Mike, we're running the Leave campaign but for our career's sake hope you'll vote Remain" team I suggest Ed Wood's bid at making the worst film of all time, "Plan 9 From Outer Space".

For those not familiar with this masterpiece, it's a low budget sci-fi/horror film originally titled ”Grave Robbers From Outer Space" that was released in 1959 to almost universal indifference. It starred Bela Lugosi, who died during the early stages of filming and was replaced by Tom Mason, Mrs Wood's chiropracter. Who had zero experience of acting and didn't even vaguely resemble Lugosi. The surreal quality is aided by the endless chain of continuity errors, dreadful script, dreadful plot and the feeling they were making it up as they went along while hoping no-one would notice.

Half way through, the film, having run out of ideas, suddenly goes "surprise!" and changes plot with the kind of smoothness train crashes are known for.

If you've not seen it, don't let me put you off a viewing. Just remember that it's an hour and a half of your life you'll never get back .

Also/(possibly alternatively) worth watching Tim Burton's 'Ed Wood' film, with Johnny Depp as Ed Wood.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 12:26 am

GetYou wrote:
fedup59 wrote:competition

What works of literature/ music/ films would you use to define our current political situation (or elements thereof)?

I offer PLP leadership challenge - waiting for Godot

As a starter
Brazil (Terry Gilliam)

Yes!

http://m.fairpay.org.uk/82/The_Politica ... '82_1.html

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 6:11 am

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... -tea-party" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Loathsome hanging out with climate change deniers, anti-science campaigners and gun lovers in the US.

My thinking - or rather wondering - is this:
- Leadsom (being someone's puppet) gets in
- The new party comprising right wing Labour and slightly less scary Tories forms
- Labour under Corbyn at least gets something (along with the Greens, SNP and LibDems) from the Brexit negotiations
- The new party will also likely be interested in PR
--> we end up with a more complex but less polarized political landscape where people's votes count (more)

Question: is this new party in any way related to the UKIP founders talk about setting up a new party?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 6:26 am

http://www.nesta.org.uk/blog/u-cant-tou ... 0wodg-MBtw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bit old (1 July) but quite interesting from Nesta.

Most of the explanations for last week’s surprise result seem to pin the blame on one of two things: neoliberalism and traditional values. But I suspect that both these explanations are too simple, and too reassuring – and that the real reason for the emerging divide is a structural problem which is getting worse.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 6:30 am

From the Nesta report

“Culture and personality, not material circumstances, separate Leave and Remain voters. This is not a class conflict so much as a values divide that cuts across lines of age, income, education and even party.” - See more at: http://www.nesta.org.uk/blog/u-cant-tou ... ZNyEE.dpuf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

: ashcroft_poll_chart.jpg (71.16 KiB) Viewed 4943 times

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 8:10 am

Morning, all.

yahyah - saw your post yesterday.
Are you on Twitter? We could PM that way.
Or - Refitman/lovely Paul - could my email address be passed on to yahyah, please?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On the Labour leadership thing....when Corbyn stood in the contest, he got 15.5% of the PLP nominations, but 59.5% of the members' votes.
9% of the votes were rejected on various grounds - it made no difference to the outcome, as Corbyn won by a landslide.
So, it was obvious then that there was a huge gap between what the majority of members thought and what the PLP MPs wanted.

In the Deputy Leader election, Eagle was third in PLP nominations; fourth in the first and second rounds of voting; and eliminated in the third.
I am at a loss to understand why she and her supporters - or anyone, for that matter - think she is a viable candidate to lead the party when she was beaten by three others for the Deputy job. What this suggests to me is that the gap between the members and the PLP is wider than ever.

I've been reading the posts from yesterday, and I am inclined to think that Corbyn could win a GE if only he had the support of his MPs.
If the PLP really cared about democracy, they would support him because the members do. It bothers me that they won't.

Momentum is being accused of all manner of nastiness, and it may be true that some of them are a bit over the top - but they are hardly Militant.
I remember Militant all too well, the shenanigans went on for years. Jon Lansman is hardly a latter-day Ted Grant, is he?

I wish I knew what the answer is to all this. I think that Corbyn's policies (and yes, he has got policies) are more social democrat than anything else; it seems to me that he has, quite rightly, tempered some of his views with a leaders' pragmatism, and that's not a bad thing.

If there s another contest and Corbyn wins, surely the PLP will have to support him? If they don't, they may well face some problems when we have another GE, however far away that might be. The Tories are re-grouping as they always do, and they won't risk a snap election now.

I feel like banging their heads together.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 8:12 am

Seconded the banging of heads together !

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 8:23 am

RobertSnozers wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:What's Stephen Kinnock got to do with anything? It's not his fault lots of people think the EU are shutting the steelworks down. See also Teesside.

Labour racks up votes in London. Its population is 2.5 times Wales.
Isn't it? He's the MP, he's got the biggest possible platform to communicate to people that that isn't the case

No, it is all Corbyn's fault isn't it, surely....except when things go well when it is despite him

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 8:34 am

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 29106.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/chilcot-report-john-prescott-says-tony-blair-led-uk-into-illegal-war-in-iraq-a7129106.html

Whatever one thinks of Prescott, this surely chucks a spanner into the works of Eagle and the other plotters ?

This comment says it all, tho I wouldn't necessarily agree with the last bit,

""<i> Forth
Well done John. Now lets hear it from Angela Eagle, Hilary Benn and Tom Watson. All voted for war in Iraq, voted heavily against any inquiry into it, Benn voted for war in Libya, now a hot bed of IS forces fuelling the conflict in Syria, where all of them voted for airstrikes. And the ME today looks the way it does, and presents the threat to us that it does, as a result. Corbyn opposed all of this murderous madness. These people are arrogant enough, with a sense of self entitlement large enough to fill the vacuum of their self awareness, to pronounce, at this time of reckoning for Iraq, that he is not fit to lead them. Frankly, after the criminal destruction of Iraq, not one of them is fit to hold office, ever again. If there was any sense of justice or morality amongst those who voted for them, they wouldn’t. ""</i>

Something on the radio about Len McCluskey supporting JC's standing in any new leadership vote .

Add those two news items together ...

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 8:37 am

RobertSnozers wrote:
I almost want there to be a split now, because it will be less damaging now than in a few years. Labour will have a chance to select new candidates for the seats where Labour MPs resign the whip and have a bit of a run at them. The better alternative is for Corbyn to gain the kind of control over the party that previous leaders have enjoyed, and deselect troublemakers.

This is basically what I've come around to in my (completely unexpert) thinking. There are now two different parties in one - and in the longer term a leftish alliance (or even a less far right one on the other side) is likely to have more influence than continuing with the two party race we have now. Chances are the Labour party without the Blairites can pick up UKIP votes, while the PLP/Anyone but Leadsom Party can pick up the ... er... Blairites etc.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 8:41 am

Morning all

Split on the cards.....

I imagine the courts will not want to touch this with a bargepole, it will therefore be the NEC who holds the power...what si their make-up?

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 8:43 am

ephemerid wrote:Morning, all.

yahyah - saw your post yesterday.
Are you on Twitter? We could PM that way.
Or - Refitman/lovely Paul - could my email address be passed on to yahyah, please?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On the Labour leadership thing....when Corbyn stood in the contest, he got 15.5% of the PLP nominations, but 59.5% of the members' votes.
9% of the votes were rejected on various grounds - it made no difference to the outcome, as Corbyn won by a landslide.
So, it was obvious then that there was a huge gap between what the majority of members thought and what the PLP MPs wanted.

In the Deputy Leader election, Eagle was third in PLP nominations; fourth in the first and second rounds of voting; and eliminated in the third.
I am at a loss to understand why she and her supporters - or anyone, for that matter - think she is a viable candidate to lead the party when she was beaten by three others for the Deputy job. What this suggests to me is that the gap between the members and the PLP is wider than ever.

I've been reading the posts from yesterday, and I am inclined to think that Corbyn could win a GE if only he had the support of his MPs.
If the PLP really cared about democracy, they would support him because the members do. It bothers me that they won't.

Momentum is being accused of all manner of nastiness, and it may be true that some of them are a bit over the top - but they are hardly Militant.
I remember Militant all too well, the shenanigans went on for years. Jon Lansman is hardly a latter-day Ted Grant, is he?

I wish I knew what the answer is to all this. I think that Corbyn's policies (and yes, he has got policies) are more social democrat than anything else; it seems to me that he has, quite rightly, tempered some of his views with a leaders' pragmatism, and that's not a bad thing.

If there s another contest and Corbyn wins, surely the PLP will have to support him? If they don't, they may well face some problems when we have another GE, however far away that might be. The Tories are re-grouping as they always do, and they won't risk a snap election now.

I feel like banging their heads together.

Morning ephemerid

For some reason I can't access email details so can't help with that. I'm sure Refitman will be along later.

Can you not PM yahyah on here though? Paul x

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 8:45 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:From the Nesta report

“Culture and personality, not material circumstances, separate Leave and Remain voters. This is not a class conflict so much as a values divide that cuts across lines of age, income, education and even party.” - See more at: http://www.nesta.org.uk/blog/u-cant-tou ... ZNyEE.dpuf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ashcroft_poll_chart.jpg

I've seen it said that it is social liberalism that has destroyed both Labour and Conservative parties.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 8:47 am

RobertSnozers wrote:
ephemerid wrote:
I've been reading the posts from yesterday, and I am inclined to think that Corbyn could win a GE if only he had the support of his MPs.
If the PLP really cared about democracy, they would support him because the members do. It bothers me that they won't.

I wish I knew what the answer is to all this. I think that Corbyn's policies (and yes, he has got policies) are more social democrat than anything else; it seems to me that he has, quite rightly, tempered some of his views with a leaders' pragmatism, and that's not a bad thing.

If there s another contest and Corbyn wins, surely the PLP will have to support him? If they don't, they may well face some problems when we have another GE, however far away that might be. The Tories are re-grouping as they always do, and they won't risk a snap election now.
Unfortunately I think it's a racing certainty that if there's a challenge and Corbyn wins, the PLP won't accept that and they'll just wait for the next opportunity to try and unseat him, while continuing the undermining and backbiting that makes it so hard for a leader to build up any (no pun intended) momentum.

I almost want there to be a split now, because it will be less damaging now than in a few years. Labour will have a chance to select new candidates for the seats where Labour MPs resign the whip and have a bit of a run at them. The better alternative is for Corbyn to gain the kind of control over the party that previous leaders have enjoyed, and deselect troublemakers.

Unfortunately, I think you could be right....

For the past 9 months, bit by bit, the PLP has been engaged in isolating their elected leader, refusing to support him or communicate with him, then complaining that he isn't taking the fight to the Tories. He can't do it all on his own.

Like Newtons' Third Law, the problem with deselections is the same sort of problem as the parachuting-in of outside candidates.
For years, CLPs have had to put up with their own local candidates being set aside so that a party-favoured person can be put in place - in fact, Eagle herself was such a person.
The worry for me then is that if experienced people are deselected for the wrong reasons - ie. out of spite or revenge - it wouldn't be right; but all that needs to happen is for sitting MPs and future candidates to pledge to support their leader.

I think that the left-leaning members and MPs of the party have, over time under Blair, mainly supported the party line and have had to swallow quite a few policies they disapprove of. Maybe now they see Corbyn as their chance to move the party back to the left.

It's all a bit of a mess. I'm with on the split, though - if it has to to happen, better now than later.