Sat 9 and Sun 10 July 2016

[PorFavor]

@Willow904

Just to let you know - I'm right behind you. It's just that I'm all talked out on the subject for now. I'm waiting for my second wind (which is neither a mah jongg reference nor a digestive system reference).

I shall be glad when\if this is all over. Ideally, I'd like a competent, close version of Jeremy Corbyn to emerge.

[tinyclanger2]

. Even when you subtract the 5 points Anatoly suggests the change in polling methodology has cost Labour,

AK is one of life's incorrigible optimists. If it were a shift remotely that big it would have been as they shifted from one methodology to the other. The raw number don't support that.

I too am one of those. When I'm not being a right miserable get.
More coping strategies from House of Clanger.

then again, you can only do what you can actually imagine.

[ohsocynical]

And in the meantime.

David Cameron lent his support to Stephen Crabb yesterday after the former Conservative leadership contender was revealed to have sent sexually explicit messages to a young woman.

h[url]ttp://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cameron-give ... -r0qgnmlz8[/url]

[Rebecca]

I get people's desire to respect the rules, but the rules are currently lumbering Labour with a poor leader and poor policy direction post-EU

The minute we start suspending due process to get the result we want, we're no better than a banana republic. The 'rules' you're so dismissive of are otherwise known as the principles of democracy. This is one of the most depressing things I've read in a very depressing few weeks.

Head in hands.

Ffs,how can Jeremy Corbyn concentrate on post ref policy when he has been fighting the plp ever since?
The buggers should be working WITH him to plan policy,not spending 2 long weeks trying every foul means they can to rid themselves of a democratically elected leader.
Seems Willow only wants democracy when it gives results she wants personally,and fuck the majority.

[mbc1955]

I agree with others above. I think that FPTP is bust beyond repair and that we are going to have to move towards Proportional Representation just to secure the future of democracy (assuming it has one, of course). I voted for PR in the last Referendum (that's two on the trot I've lost), and whilst the system will result in seats for parties whose views we oppose, we are just going to have to grin and cope with it.

it won't be easy. We have absolutely no tradition nor experience of multi-party democracy in this country, and we know it comes with its own problems, but I can't now see for us a future without this coming about, and we are just going to have to learn to work it.

I'm currently binge-watching the series 'Person of Interest', a neat and very thought-provoking combination of procedural action thriller and political examination of free will and democracy and the prospect of the latter being ruled out completely and forever. I'm in the fourth season, where the heroes are fighting back against an all-powerful artificial intelligence that is working to bring the whole world under its control, via intense surveillance, for the benefit of a limited few controllers. It's fiction, with an SF element, but it doesn't feel that far ahead of us in real life, and it's a version of where I think FPTP and those people currently backing Leadsom in particular want to take us.

We need something that introduces complexity into the system. Maybe then we'll start to grow up enough to handle it.

[mbc1955]

And in the meantime.

David Cameron lent his support to Stephen Crabb yesterday after the former Conservative leadership contender was revealed to have sent sexually explicit messages to a young woman.

h[url]ttp://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cameron-give ... -r0qgnmlz8[/url]

Have you left no sense of decency sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?

[gilsey]

With the country swallowing the lies of people like Farage & Boris Johnson, Aaron Banks talking about a new right wing party, what might the outcome of PR actually be ?

MPs for UKIP/new party, we have to take that on the chin. The last thing I want is Labour chasing anti-immigration voters.

I think I've asked this before, but isn't PR tricky for the SNP? Labour would get seats in Scotland again. On the other hand they have PR for the devolved govt so couldn't really complain?

[ephemerid]

Jolyon Maugham, QC, again -
"As a QC, if asked, I'll act pro bono to put Corbyn on the ballot. But my personal view is, an honourable man in Corbyn's shoes would resign"

Earlier, he clarified the rules - he is quite clear that Corbyn need not seek PLP nominations under the rules in place since 2010.

Despite being unsupportive of Corbyn in terms of his personal politics, he respects the law and recognises that the principle is always bigger than the personality. I happen to think he is right.

To me, this whole affair is a matter of principle. Democracy is defined as "a system of government by the whole population or the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives".
If the eligible members, in this case those entitled to vote in the Labour leadership election, vote by a majority to have X as their leader, then that vote must be respected. If that majority is thwarted, it's not democracy.

[PorFavor]

I agree with others above. I think that FPTP is bust beyond repair and that we are going to have to move towards Proportional Representation just to secure the future of democracy (assuming it has one, of course). I voted for PR in the last Referendum (that's two on the trot I've lost), and whilst the system will result in seats for parties whose views we oppose, we are just going to have to grin and cope with it.

it won't be easy. We have absolutely no tradition nor experience of multi-party democracy in this country, and we know it comes with its own problems, but I can't now see for us a future without this coming about, and we are just going to have to learn to work it.

I'm currently binge-watching the series 'Person of Interest', a neat and very thought-provoking combination of procedural action thriller and political examination of free will and democracy and the prospect of the latter being ruled out completely and forever. I'm in the fourth season, where the heroes are fighting back against an all-powerful artificial intelligence that is working to bring the whole world under its control, via intense surveillance, for the benefit of a limited few controllers. It's fiction, with an SF element, but it doesn't feel that far ahead of us in real life, and it's a version of where I think FPTP and those people currently backing Leadsom in particular want to take us.

We need something that introduces complexity into the system. Maybe then we'll start to grow up enough to handle it.

Person of Interest is really very good. I've always enjoyed it. Michael Emerson is the one who makes it so good in my opinion.

[ephemerid]

D'oh.

I do not think Maugham is right to say Corbyn should resign - but he's right to put the rules above his personal preference.

[mbc1955]

I agree with others above. I think that FPTP is bust beyond repair and that we are going to have to move towards Proportional Representation just to secure the future of democracy (assuming it has one, of course). I voted for PR in the last Referendum (that's two on the trot I've lost), and whilst the system will result in seats for parties whose views we oppose, we are just going to have to grin and cope with it.

it won't be easy. We have absolutely no tradition nor experience of multi-party democracy in this country, and we know it comes with its own problems, but I can't now see for us a future without this coming about, and we are just going to have to learn to work it.

I'm currently binge-watching the series 'Person of Interest', a neat and very thought-provoking combination of procedural action thriller and political examination of free will and democracy and the prospect of the latter being ruled out completely and forever. I'm in the fourth season, where the heroes are fighting back against an all-powerful artificial intelligence that is working to bring the whole world under its control, via intense surveillance, for the benefit of a limited few controllers. It's fiction, with an SF element, but it doesn't feel that far ahead of us in real life, and it's a version of where I think FPTP and those people currently backing Leadsom in particular want to take us.

We need something that introduces complexity into the system. Maybe then we'll start to grow up enough to handle it.

Emerson is brilliant but I think the whole cast is superb. I haven't seen a weak performance yet.

I have 22 episodes left in which to void spoilers for the show's ending.

[Lost Soul]

I'm so glad I watched the last part of the tennis finals,cameron got well and truly booed.

He did !

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/wa ... wide%20p$1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[PorFavor]

On Wimbledon -

Does anyone here remember the New Zealander, Chris Lewis?

By the way, this time round (on the losing side yet again) I lost interest when Novak Djokovic went out. I enjoy his style of tennis. A bit retro albeit more powerful and faster. Thus, to me, much more interesting to watch.

[ohsocynical]

(((Red Labour))) ‏@Redlabour2016 21h21 hours ago

Labour MP told me today that they regretted resignation,& like a number of their plp colleagues are wishing they had not followed bad advice

[Rebecca]

(((Red Labour))) ‏@Redlabour2016 21h21 hours ago

Labour MP told me today that they regretted resignation,& like a number of their plp colleagues are wishing they had not followed bad advice

If that's true they should be even more ashamed of themselves.
How do they think they could form a bloody govt?And people say Corbyn is useless!
And if it is true,they need to grow a pair and apologise.

[RogerOThornhill]

It was depressing to hear Aaron Banks talking of a new party, seeking to take voters from the Tories and Labour.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Party_(UK" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

The New Party was a political party briefly active in the United Kingdom in the early 1930s. It was formed by Sir Oswald Mosley, an MP who had belonged to both the Conservative and Labour parties, quitting Labour after its 1930 conference narrowly rejected his "Mosley Memorandum", a document he had written outlining how he would deal with the problem of unemployment.

[RogerOThornhill]

Worth looking at Oliver Kamm's twitter feed over the past few hours...Mensch has been making her usual idiot of herself.

https://twitter.com/OliverKamm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Baffling.

[SpinningHugo]

I am sure many on here are wondering what would have been wrong with Ronaldo limping around for the rest of the game.

[mbc1955]

If this site had a report button, it would be used to zap the previous post, which is a clear indication of the contempt with which this poster holds the vast majority of those who contribute to this forum.

[RogerOThornhill]

I am sure many on here are wondering what would have been wrong with Ronaldo limping around for the rest of the game.

Don't you ever give up?

Edit - and I note that it's not even your gag.

[ohsocynical]

When the cork is out of the bottle, things will change. Expect Owen Smith to mount a serious challenge. An MP since 2010, Smith is respected on all sides for his performance as Shadow Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. He brings talent and experience, and comes from the left of the party, but unlike Angela Eagle is a clean skin. He can claim all the good things from Labour’s record in office but did not vote for those shibboleths – such as the Iraq War, tuition fees. More importantly, he has taken head on the true danger of the Corbyn leadership – that it is a coup. At the same time as Eagle was announcing her challenge Smith tweeted: “On July 27 I asked @jeremycorbyn 3 times if he was prepared to see our party split & worse, wanted it to. He offered no answer.” He went on: “I am not prepared to stand by and see our party split. And I have asked to meet with Jeremy again tomorrow to see how we can stop that.” A different form of challenge, a different form of leadership.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07 ... for-jerem/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[tinyclanger2]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... p-election" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What are the riptides and crosscurrents that have borne Andrea Leadsom to the final round of the contest to succeed David Cameron – a candidate, who, in the words of one perplexed cabinet source, resembles “Iain Duncan Smith with more hair and less charm”?
...
For all their foibles and eccentricities, Conservatives hate to lose. If they choose Leadsom, they will richly deserve to do so.

Good lord.

[ohsocynical]

For once I had to agree with the words if not the spirit. Mr Ohso had just called Ronaldo a wuss...

[citizenJA]

Goodnight, everyone.
love,
cJA

[Willow904]

I get people's desire to respect the rules, but the rules are currently lumbering Labour with a poor leader and poor policy direction post-EU

The minute we start suspending due process to get the result we want, we're no better than a banana republic. The 'rules' you're so dismissive of are otherwise known as the principles of democracy. This is one of the most depressing things I've read in a very depressing few weeks.

Head in hands.

I'm not sure internal party policy is the same as democracy. All the parties have different systems so there's nothing sacrosanct about the current system. I'm not sure what's wrong with pointing out that the Labour party system hasn't worked effectively to create the right balance between the members and the MPs. I have said many times I see no clear way forward, which is not the same as advocating rules should be broken. I know you feel members should be above all else, but that is a form of direct democracy, surely, when more generally we have a representative democracy. I'm just disappointed by the lack of respect for the opinion of a lot of very able MPs from the membership. The assumption that Corbyn isn't failing at the job seems a matter of faith. The idea that a small handful of MPs from the right can convince most of the party Corbyn isn't up to the job against their own knowledge and experience is giving them so little credit as people in their own right its pretty insulting. I feel their concerns deserve at least some consideration. Maybe I'm in the wrong to continue to like and respect Ed Miliband and to accept that when he says it's time for Corbyn to go, it probably is, and to be frustrated that the rules seem to ignore the need for a leader to be able to command the confidence of those he leads, but it's just how I feel right now.

[ohsocynical]

CnCAs2JWYAAG0gj.jpg (97.3 KiB) Viewed 6124 times

Gideonomics
‏@davessidekick

Cos Blairites kept plotting against Gordon Brown, Lab brought in 'incumbent leader must be allowed to stand' policy

[ohsocynical]

Oops sorry. Don't know what happened there.

[refitman]

Oops sorry. Don't know what happened there.

Don't worry, I've fixed it.

[Willow904]

CnCAs2JWYAAG0gj.jpg

Gideonomics
‏@davessidekick

Cos Blairites kept plotting against Gordon Brown, Lab brought in 'incumbent leader must be allowed to stand' policy

It would have been helpful if they had stated this as clearly in the actual rules. Besides, a leader can still be challenged on a yearly basis, so how does it stop the plotting? Surely a leader having the confidence of the PLP is the only thing which will stop the plotting in reality. Some good polls would help Corbyn. They certainly helped Ed, I think, in keeping things together.

[Willow904]

The minute we start suspending due process to get the result we want, we're no better than a banana republic. The 'rules' you're so dismissive of are otherwise known as the principles of democracy. This is one of the most depressing things I've read in a very depressing few weeks.

Head in hands.

I'm not sure internal party policy is the same as democracy. All the parties have different systems so there's nothing sacrosanct about the current system. I'm not sure what's wrong with pointing out that the Labour party system hasn't worked effectively to create the right balance between the members and the MPs. I have said many times I see no clear way forward, which is not the same as advocating rules should be broken. I know you feel members should be above all else, but that is a form of direct democracy, surely, when more generally we have a representative democracy. I'm just disappointed by the lack of respect for the opinion of a lot of very able MPs from the membership. The assumption that Corbyn isn't failing at the job seems a matter of faith. The idea that a small handful of MPs from the right can convince most of the party Corbyn isn't up to the job against their own knowledge and experience is giving them so little credit as people in their own right its pretty insulting. I feel their concerns deserve at least some consideration. Maybe I'm in the wrong to continue to like and respect Ed Miliband and to accept that when he says it's time for Corbyn to go, it probably is, and to be frustrated that the rules seem to ignore the need for a leader to be able to command the confidence of those he leads, but it's just how I feel right now.

There seem to be lot of straw men here, which seems par for the course on FTN at the moment, though it may just be that none of us understand each other that well. No doubt many MPs felt Corbyn's position was untenable regardless of what had led to it. No confidence can mean many things. Ed's very circumspect statement - which revealed he had been pressured to denounce Corbyn for a year - was an example. Rhodri Morgan's comments that if he were in the same position he would have stepped down (but not calling for Corbyn's resignation) was another. I dare say many of the 172 thought that Corbyn would step down and there would be a quick end to it, and that was best all round. Whether or not some are regretting that now is not clear.

Of course the leader should be able to command the confidence of those they lead, but the led have been undermining the leader for far longer than this. Do you think they were right to undermine Ed? To undermine Brown? In any case, as I keep saying, there is a structural problem with the nature of the PLP. To just accept this as a reality and bow to it would be wrong. It would be anti-democratic and it will kill Labour as a political force - it's just that it will be the death of a thousand cuts.

I don't know, was Diane Abbott right to undermine Ed? How can I put any more trust in a left that has never been any more loyal than those on the right? Surely most MPs are in the middle, and can support anyone who is capable and not too far to one extreme or the other? Is the aim really to fix a structural problem or is it to replace dominance by one extreme on the right with another extreme on the left? There have been provocations on both sides. I had hoped Ed could ride a middle line, but many people seemed to welcome this battle when it appeared to be inevitable after he resigned. I'm not convinced. The result seems to be that the middle ground has come to be held in equal contempt by both sides. But it's late and I doubt I make any sense any more.

[thatchersorphan]

Interesting that someone referred to student politics before

The current PLP behaviour reminds me of my student Labour days

My university had an active Labour Society and I was a member for the whole time I was there

The leadership was made up of the liberal arts students - not denigrating arts students here but these people I am referring to had only a few hours of organised per lectures per week whereas I was timetabled for 30 hours...not much time for politicking on top of maintaining my reputation as a social butterfly

They were an unpleasant bunch as well.....and it was clear (I went out with one for a while) that they we only interested in a future career in politics. They had no fixed principles to speak of apart from trying to manoeuvre themselves into future career. There were the sabbatical years taken and the factions created - all posturing and nonsense really that left some of us truly bewildered

The factionalism was interesting - it was very fluid and based on personality rather than policy. Very incestuous and could get quite nasty.......as with all clubs and socieites like this people took sides. I took the side of one because I was going out with one of the main ringleaders and had no choice, but was not particularly bothered one way or another

Because the people were involved were very focused on being seen to 'win' everyone was expected to take a side and so we all did but 90% were not committed to anything it was, as I said due to personalities, and in some cases threats and bullying took place. Nothing overt but being shunned was not what anyone wanted to be, especially by the people who effectively ran the student union.

It put me off Labour politics for an age

You may say all this is irrelevant but some of these people are of an age where they are, or where, influential in Labour politics even now....one of the was a joint-founder of Progress, and another went to on to be Chief of Staff for Blair......seems they managed to get where they wanted to be

This may mean nothing but my personal experience of some of the people I have seen tweeting about the current Labour members and leadership as being a cult, are some of the most unpleasant people I have known - even at a young age - and were looking to get into politics for not the best reasons

It will be interesting if there is a move before recess because once the MPs get back to their constituencies at the end of the month, they may find their appetite for rebellion less pressing.....outside the bubble and the fevered atmosphere - with a number of membership unimpressed by their actions

I must say it is strange that of the 172 who voted against Corbyn....we have only heard publicly from a very few usual suspects....even John Mann has been very quiet. Does that indicate a lack of real enthusiasm for going to the membership?

Perhaps we will see on Monday!


PS See Trident vote soon - I have a feeling the membership will not be quite so keen on the gung-ho renewal as the PLP.....another issue for Eagle on top of Iraq and everything else.....I saw Corbyn give a standing ovation to Cook after hos resignation speech....what was Eagle doing at the time?

My experiences are a bit different - in that I wasn't at uni, but I was at a Labour youth conference (around 86), but I can really relate to there being some very unpleasant people there, very point-scoring, smug, dismissive, superior types (and not necessarily part of militant either, though militant did have two really obnoxious bullies there)
I really enjoyed the fringe groups though, there was good diversity and a lot of enthusiastic debate.
But it did decide me that I wanted to stay at the (further left) fringe, rather than the party itself, because frankly the people there were nicer, and more willing to actually debate. And then I was homeless, and various other bad situations so it wasn't a priority to keep up with politics for a while. By the time I started watching again they had become tory-lite.
For me Corbyn was Labours last chance to reconnect with its roots. If he fails (and isn't replaced by an anti-austerity candidate) and we get another pro-austerity party again, I don't think it will recover for years, if not decades; not after PLP's mass lets burn the party down (at a time when the tories were in total disarray, and the uk really needed a strong, united opposition) rather than try a way that members support for a year or two, - it was obvious Tories wouldn't call an early GE given how close the last one was.

It does seem that many in the higher echelons of the party, never really grew out of their student days, as well as becoming increasingly out of touch with the general public.

[thatchersorphan]

Caught up with the last 2 weeks of FTN posts now and going to drop some links off

Subject: The UK’s future economic relationship with the European Union Treasury meeting http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/cb ... 14e3dbdf0b" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Becomes very obvious that leave are not going to get what they want, I'm not sure if the committee really excepted it to be quite this grim, the closer to leave ideas you get, the worse it is.

This ones from June, so you may have already seen, but : Nicky Morgan, the education secretary, announced she had ordered officials to investigate whether immigration levels are linked to “education tourism”. They start collecting in autumn. The anti-immigrant rhetoric will expand. Even given the rise in racism, its probably too much to hope for that this will be cancelled. http://schoolsweek.co.uk/schools-must-c ... om-autumn/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And on brexit - I really don't see a way out of it at present. I think its disastrous, and my mental health crashed very badly after the results, but leave voters will not put up with being told no. A delay by the tories enacting article 50 is either a very good thing (If it gives leavers chance to really reconsider) or a very bad thing (if they leave us in limbo for a year then brexit anyway)
Ideally the actual options would be laid out with people asked which model they want - a sort of confirmation referendum with better options (eg Remain with reform, Leave with EEA, leave with WTO etc). This has already been suggested by one of the politicians (can't remember which one) but after negotiations instead of at an earlier point. It is of course quite possible that the worst option would win (complete stand alone WTO) but Leave absolutely can't be over-ruled without the support of many of the actual leavers, unless we want mass civil disorder.
I've calmed down quite a lot by now, but I spent most of the first 3 days muttering stupid, stupid, stupid f'ing country, repeatedly
I think the media and the politicians bear a lot of responsibility, as a Euroskeptic I trusted Corbyn to make a case for remain without spin (which I think he did), and ignored the leaflets from both campaigns, and the 'official' remain camp completely.
I talk politics a lot when out - mostly taxi drivers to appointments, Corbyn has got support from them, mostly for opposing the iraq war. But they obviously hadn't been hearing from the mainstream about a lot of the things that were important in my remain vote - ie job losses, research grants, EU funding, the useful EU regs/rights. Was the media just not telling them this? Or was it just overshadowed/overpowered by Leave lies and leavers shouting 'project fear' to stop them looking?
I'm from a remain area, but I'm not sure how close it was. I spent the weeks leading up to it urging people who were pro remain to go and vote as the leavers would all be voting, as well as trying to convince leavers and undecided. One thing I found was that remainers were happy to talk about their reasons, undecided were mixed, some were 'don't cares' , but leavers didn't seem to want actual discussions or even to give their reasons - is this just my experience or a common one? If common, it could suggest that they have made up their minds and won't be reconsidering which is really depressing.

[Willow904]

http://jackofkent.com/2016/07/how-corby ... ouldnt-be/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How Corbyn could be left off the ballot – and why he shouldn’t be.

This guy, like me, thinks the rules are unclear and, also like me, isn't a stickler for the rules, so I really rather like him even though he comes down on the side of Corbyn being on the ballot. And he's a proper expert I think. I still don't see how Corbyn getting re-elected solves anything though, which is why I don't see a way forward.

[thatchersorphan]

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/09/new-york ... -them.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; As local residents realize that the immigrants are unlikely to be sent home soon — despite intimations of such an outcome by some Brexit advocates — frustration in Boston is mounting.

[HindleA]

"Clinging On To The Wreckage"

[HindleA]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... -thinktank" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Lowest-paid workers to receive smaller pay rises, says thinktank



http://www.resolutionfoundation.org/pub ... ving-wage/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[tinyclanger2]

One barrister involved, Aidan O'Neill, an EU law specialist, said: "The Brexit referendum has made clear that the UK is not a united nation-state, but a divided state of nations.

"But it has given no mandate or guidance as to what our nations' future relationship might be with Europe, and with each other.

"[Triggering] Article 50 will simply further divide us", he added.
http://www.itv.com/news/2016-07-11/lawy ... y-binding/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[tinyclanger2]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/br ... se-8394195" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Brexit unleashed race hate across Britain with more than 13,000 racist tweets sent in the week after the vote , it has been revealed.

The National Police Chiefs Council recorded a 400% rise in reported race crimes says Channel 4 ’s Dispatches.

Home Office Minister Karen Bradley tells the programme: “There can be no excuse for hate crime, for abuse being hurled at innocent people.”

We are all immigrants. What are these people on.

[tinyclanger2]

on the other hand:

Almost £30,000 has been raised in an online appeal after an Eastern European food shop was damaged in an arson attack in Norwich.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... -shop-fire" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Helen Linehan, from Norwich, set up the page and said the “generosity has been overwhelming”. She said donations had surpassed all expectations and that the shop owners had insisted “they only need a small amount to restore their business”. The rest of the money is expected to go to charity.

In Plymouth, donations approached £7,000 after a Polish family were targeted when a fire was started in a shed next to their house overnight on Wednesday. A total of £6,927 has been raised for the Banaszak family since Hannah Brotherstone from Devon launched a JustGiving page. She described the response as incredible.

[tinyclanger2]

At Ukip’s first conference since the EU referendum result, the mood was celebratory. “We got absolutely soaked as we came in, but at least it is British rain!” declared Neil Hamilton, Ukip’s leader in the Welsh assembly, to delighted applause from about 250 delegates.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... nges-ahead" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

already massive increase in hate crime not enough ?

[HindleA]

"Hamilton said: “Any attempt to backslide on what the people voted for courts, I think, the possibility of armed revolution in this country.”

FFS.

[HindleA]

"At least it will be a British armed revolution he added to an increasingly orgasmic audience."