Thursday 14th July 2016

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 10:39 am

John Whittingdale Verified account
‏@JWhittingdale

Has been a privilege to serve as Culture Secretary. I wish my successor every success & will continue to support creative industries

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 10:41 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:Richard Vaughan ‏@RichardVaughan1 39s39 seconds ago

Strong rumours that @JustineGreening is in line for education secretary following @NickyMorgan01's sacking
0 retweets 0 likes

Wouldn't mind this at all - pretty competent and non-ideological.

And she's not Liz Truss.

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 10:43 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:John Whittingdale Verified account
‏@JWhittingdale

Has been a privilege to serve as Culture Secretary. I wish my successor every success & will continue to support creative industries

Glad to see the back of him. Seedy creep of a man who hated public service broadcasting.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 10:44 am

mbc1955 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
fedup59 wrote: I thought your comment last night was spot on and tried to copy it here for today. Failed though, since I can't master copy/paste on a tablet. I mourn the death of the relationship between the Labour party and the Labour movement but see no way to fix what feels like a structural chasm. I take note of AK's argument that there needs to be a connecting space created between those PLP members and the CLPs that will seek to bring the two elements together but see little indication that those PLP members understand that the breakdown is two way.

I'm stuck on TE's description of party members as oddball because they are politically active and engaged - to my mind an arid image of democracy. (That was a couple of weeks ago when I asked what he thought being a member entailed, with apologies for not responding at the time but to address the points he raised I started an, as yet unfinished article!)

Anyway I believe an active, vibrant democracy needs politically engaged and informed people across the spectrum and that means we need to find ways to fight against the misinformation, self serving lack of accountability and elitist party and media systems that have bought the current system. I don't see any plaster big enough to fix those wounds at the moment.
There isn't a problem with the Labour Party. There is a problem with the pillocks in charge of it, left and right.

I know I'm a stuck record, but the policy differences across the party are minuscule, with the exception of Trident (which will soon be out of the way anyway) and foreign policy.

Why can't they just stop shouting at each other, get together and figure it out? Focus on where we want Labour to be in 2020 and stop worrying about who's going to be in charge of what tomorrow. Who really knows what Corbyn wants beyond ending an interventionist foreign policy. How long does he want to lead for? What does his legacy look like? I'm not anywhere near well-informed enough to know what the solutions are. But there must be some.
But they can't. That's the long and the short of it and that's why it's now far better to phoenix-from-the-ashes with something new than to scrabble around in the ashes pretending they can somehow transform back into the wood that used to make a heary, warming fire.

They certainly aren't. Don't believe in can't

The thing is the ashes are only what you see in the media. There are very many excellent Labour people, for example running Wales, London and lots of city councils round the country.

I don't want to see all that thrown away, because a handful of selfish pricks at the top have lost the plot.

thatchersorphan · Post by **thatchersorphan** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 10:45 am

http://www.conservativehome.com/platfor ... itain.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Davis: "Once the European nations realise that we are not going to budge on control of our borders, they will want to talk, in their own interest".

Why do people still think we still have the same 'extra clout' as when we had an empire? Especially since our politicians have alienated the EU

Post by **adam** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 10:51 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
mbc1955 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote: There isn't a problem with the Labour Party. There is a problem with the pillocks in charge of it, left and right.

I know I'm a stuck record, but the policy differences across the party are minuscule, with the exception of Trident (which will soon be out of the way anyway) and foreign policy.

Why can't they just stop shouting at each other, get together and figure it out? Focus on where we want Labour to be in 2020 and stop worrying about who's going to be in charge of what tomorrow. Who really knows what Corbyn wants beyond ending an interventionist foreign policy. How long does he want to lead for? What does his legacy look like? I'm not anywhere near well-informed enough to know what the solutions are. But there must be some.
But they can't. That's the long and the short of it and that's why it's now far better to phoenix-from-the-ashes with something new than to scrabble around in the ashes pretending they can somehow transform back into the wood that used to make a heary, warming fire.
They certainly aren't. Don't believe in can't The thing is the ashes are only what you see in the media. There are very many excellent Labour people, for example running Wales, London and lots of city councils round the country.

I don't want to see all that thrown away, because a handful of selfish pricks at the top have lost the plot.

I have obviously missed what I'm sure was an awful lot of discussion about all of this but what appeared to me to happen at the time was...

1. Labour lose
2. The usual suspects in the Telegraph commentariat - Toby Young and so on - line up to explain why Labour lost and what they need to do to improve
3. Labour's then leadership/prospective leadership agree with Toby Young about everything
4. Labour's membership/prospective membership tell the leadership where to go.

I don't think it's what anyone would have wanted - I can't believe it's what Corbyn would have wanted - but I kind of think that's what happens if you try to give de facto control of your party to people like Toby Young.

I'm waiting for David Miliband to be announced as Labour's unity candidate, oh-so-symbolically drafted into Batley and Spen.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 10:54 am

TobyLatimer wrote:John Wittingdale sacked, Strictly Come Dancing breathes a sigh of relief.

Presumably his Civil Servants will have a whip round for his leaving present

fedup59 · Post by **fedup59** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 11:00 am

I agree with your argument that there are lots of very active and capable activists and representatives on the ground Paul but I feel that the space to grow the kind of commitment and political confidence that such activities need is constantly shut down by the party structures that are used to control things from the top. I really believe that is at the root of the decimation of scottish labour.

Maybe a separate thread looking at democracy in the round would be useful. I often worry that I'm breaking up the flow of the faster, day to day politics by waffling thought processes that are relevant but uncertain.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 11:00 am

adam wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
mbc1955 wrote: But they can't. That's the long and the short of it and that's why it's now far better to phoenix-from-the-ashes with something new than to scrabble around in the ashes pretending they can somehow transform back into the wood that used to make a heary, warming fire.
They certainly aren't. Don't believe in can't The thing is the ashes are only what you see in the media. There are very many excellent Labour people, for example running Wales, London and lots of city councils round the country.

I don't want to see all that thrown away, because a handful of selfish pricks at the top have lost the plot.
I have obviously missed what I'm sure was an awful lot of discussion about all of this but what appeared to me to happen at the time was...

1. Labour lose
2. The usual suspects in the Telegraph commentariat - Toby Young and so on - line up to explain why Labour lost and what they need to do to improve
3. Labour's then leadership/prospective leadership agree with Toby Young about everything
4. Labour's membership/prospective membership tell the leadership where to go.

I don't think it's what anyone would have wanted - I can't believe it's what Corbyn would have wanted - but I kind of think that's what happens if you try to give de facto control of your party to people like Toby Young.

I'm waiting for David Miliband to be announced as Labour's unity candidate, oh-so-symbolically drafted into Batley and Spen.

Please! You know your predictions come true!

TR'sGhost · Post by **TR'sGhost** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 11:03 am

adam wrote:David Davies's piece for Conservative home is linked to in the graun - it's here (xx'd out as a link to conservative home - replace with tt)-

hxxp://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2016/ ... itain.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

- and he still seems to be running with the idea 'German Car Industry' argument, that Europe will not want complicated trading relationships with us, and still seems to be ignoring the fact that these desires are not absolute but are relative - European governments are going to be balancing the desire to do the best they can for their industries against the considerable downsides of the EU collapsing if other nationalists see us leaving as a productive and viable option.

And even more than that, with Germany in particular, and with Germany in its place in the EU driving seat particularly, it ignores all of the political, moral and cultural significance modern Germany attaches to the European project. Every other European government, and the German government in particular, want to be able to talk to any other Leave movement and say 'Are you sure? Look what happened to the UK'.

I particularly admire where Davis talks about boosting the UK's indigenous car industry if the EU imposes tariffs. So that'll be TVR, Lotus, Caterham, Morgan and....... A truly imposing set of competitors for any nation's car industry. Renault, FIAT, Volkswagen, Mercedes and BMW must be absolutely terrified.

And what Davis seems not to have noticed (or hopes we won't notice of he doesn't mention it) is that if tariffs are imposed against the UK and we retaliate in kind, then the people who pay the tariffs on imports will be us and we will have to buy imports because his ideology destroyed the UK as a mass-commodity production based economy.

So we'll be paying for Brexit in more ways than just the drop in the pound. David Davis is an example of the kind of swivel-eyed obsessive wingnut ideologue even previous Tory governments have kept well away from power.

He also seems to think it's possible to cut trade deals with individual EU member states, or maybe do behind the scenes hidden deals to get them to support the UK being in the single market without any of the stuff that goes with it. I suspect he's going to be very, very disappointed. And yet again we have in him an example of a supposedly deep-thinking politician who campaigned against the EU for years and years but never seems to have given the slightest thought to what might happen we did leave.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 11:03 am

Will Dominic Grieve make a come-back?

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 11:03 am

fedup59 wrote:I agree with your argument that there are lots of very active and capable activists and representatives on the ground Paul but I feel that the space to grow the kind of commitment and political confidence that such activities need is constantly shut down by the party structures that are used to control things from the top. I really believe that is at the root of the decimation of scottish labour.

Maybe a separate thread looking at democracy in the round would be useful. I often worry that I'm breaking up the flow of the faster, day to day politics by waffling thought processes that are relevant but uncertain.

Carry on waffling please. It's this mix of thoughts that we all loved in the old CiF.

Democratic renewal is surely something a wide range of anti austerity, anti-tory folk could gather round.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 11:07 am

Oliver Letwin has gone. (BBC)

thatchersorphan · Post by **thatchersorphan** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 11:10 am

David Allen Green ‏@DavidAllenGreen 3m3 minutes ago
"David Davis, Brexit and the shapelessness of things to come"
https://next.ft.com/content/3df2eeab-7b ... 39239f6396" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 11:11 am

Jeremy Hunt is sacked (BBC).

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 11:11 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
fedup59 wrote:
mbc1955 wrote:And so I wake up and I take a look at this strange new world we've collectively wandered into, and last night's optimism about this being the chance to renew things turns into ashes. Everybody's going to do their damnedest to keep fighting old and worthless battles, bald men (and women) will still scrap asininely for combs, and we'll wrap gaffer tape around the most broken of things and try to keep it all as it was.

And it's not even as if I was drunk last night.
I thought your comment last night was spot on and tried to copy it here for today. Failed though, since I can't master copy/paste on a tablet. I mourn the death of the relationship between the Labour party and the Labour movement but see no way to fix what feels like a structural chasm. I take note of AK's argument that there needs to be a connecting space created between those PLP members and the CLPs that will seek to bring the two elements together but see little indication that those PLP members understand that the breakdown is two way.

I'm stuck on TE's description of party members as oddball because they are politically active and engaged - to my mind an arid image of democracy. (That was a couple of weeks ago when I asked what he thought being a member entailed, with apologies for not responding at the time but to address the points he raised I started an, as yet unfinished article!)

Anyway I believe an active, vibrant democracy needs politically engaged and informed people across the spectrum and that means we need to find ways to fight against the misinformation, self serving lack of accountability and elitist party and media systems that have bought the current system. I don't see any plaster big enough to fix those wounds at the moment.
There isn't a problem with the Labour Party. There is a problem with the pillocks in charge of it, left and right.

I know I'm a stuck record, but the policy differences across the party are minuscule, with the exception of Trident (which will soon be out of the way anyway) and foreign policy.

Why can't they just stop shouting at each other, get together and figure it out? Focus on where we want Labour to be in 2020 and stop worrying about who's going to be in charge of what tomorrow. Who really knows what Corbyn wants beyond ending an interventionist foreign policy. How long does he want to lead for? What does his legacy look like? I'm not anywhere near well-informed enough to know what the solutions are. But there must be some.

Oh I so agree with this.

And however eloquent the arguments of some on here - and it can be tempting to agree with them, believe me - there is no way a party with over 500k members is "finished".

Ever the optimist, I still think that the worst was averted on Tuesday. The forthcoming leadership contest might be better than some fear?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 11:15 am

Doesn't Norman Smith know any other word than "brutal"?

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 11:16 am

PorFavor wrote:Jeremy Hunt is sacked (BBC).

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 11:18 am

Whittingdale, Letwin and Rhyming Slang all gone - have to say that has cheered me up a tiny bit.

Truss maybe to be, erm, trussed as well?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 11:21 am

One minute the media is selling Boris Johnson as a credible PM and the next as a potential liability\disaster area.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 11:23 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Whittingdale, Letwin and Rhyming Slang all gone - have to say that has cheered me up a tiny bit.

Truss maybe to be, erm, trussed as well?

Truss to education is the rumour.

maths!
textbooks!
maths textbooks!

Oh, and wants testing at 3 years old...

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 11:23 am

And why is Toby Young all over the place as some sort of wise-acres?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 11:24 am

BBC correction - Jeremy Hunt has been moved and not sacked. Don't know where he's gone to, though.

Sorry, everyone.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 11:26 am

PorFavor wrote:And why is Toby Young all over the place as some sort of wise-acres?

Media whore.

It'd be good if they simply ignored him.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 11:31 am

PorFavor wrote:BBC correction - Jeremy Hunt has been moved and not sacked. Don't know where he's gone to, though.

Sorry, everyone.

And so you should be

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 11:36 am

Labour NEC have announced a freeze on affiliate members voting for leader, i.e. joining Unite for £2.00 to get a vote won't count.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk ... te-members" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 11:42 am

Everything done for the first time unleashes a Demon (Dave Sim)

Lost Soul · Post by **Lost Soul** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 11:44 am

PorFavor wrote:BBC correction - Jeremy Hunt has been moved and not sacked. Don't know where he's gone to, though.

Sorry, everyone.

Oh ****...

What, why, what could he be good at...

or, what hasn't he screwed up already...

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 11:47 am

Hunt obviously couldn't face Diane Abbot

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 11:49 am

Lost Soul wrote:
PorFavor wrote:BBC correction - Jeremy Hunt has been moved and not sacked. Don't know where he's gone to, though.

Sorry, everyone.
Oh ****...

What, why, what could he be good at...

or, what hasn't he screwed up already...

Likes trees so maybe Environment?

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 11:49 am

Oh I can't wait to see Angela Rayner having a go at the Truss

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 11:49 am

No mention, so far, of Priti Patel amongst the runners and riders. Saving the best for last?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 11:50 am

Liz Truss replaces Michael Gove as Justice Secretary.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 11:50 am

Truss at Justice

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 11:51 am

PorFavor wrote:No mention, so far, of Priti Patel amongst the runners and riders. Saving the best for last?

Education?

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 11:53 am

Just realised poor Natalie Rowe's career is probably about to fade into obscurity.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 11:53 am

Greening to education.

Good.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 11:54 am

Greening at Education

Could be much worse eh?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 11:55 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
PorFavor wrote:No mention, so far, of Priti Patel amongst the runners and riders. Saving the best for last?
Education?

With her flagship policy bein' takin' the "g" out of "spellin'"?

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 11:57 am

What about IDS?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 11:58 am

Still no ohsocynical?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 11:59 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:What about IDS?

There is no "g" in IDS . . . .

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 12:01 pm

No change in interest rate.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 12:02 pm

PorFavor wrote:Still no ohsocynical?

Hasn't been active on Twitter for a couple of days either

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 12:04 pm

HE moving to Greening from BIS - wow!

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 12:06 pm

Richard Adams ‏@RichardA 13s14 seconds ago Camden Town, London

Higher education and apprenticeships to move from BIS to the Dept for Education - making it a massive department; sensible move
0 retweets 0 likes

Twitteratis thought that was coming last night with the new Dept of International trade announcement.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 12:09 pm

Now, if she can ditch Nick Gibb I'll be very happy...and the absurd full academisation idea too.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 12:12 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Still no ohsocynical?
Hasn't been active on Twitter for a couple of days either

Thanks for the information. Is there anyone here able to contact her in order to check that things are ok?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 12:13 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Just realised poor Natalie Rowe's career is probably about to fade into obscurity.

Maybe the full truth will emerge now?

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 12:32 pm

This isn't a reshuffle - it's a completely new government, not just a new PM.

Lots of sacked people on the back benches, with a majority of just 12.

Ooooer.........this could be fun.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And now, in the interests of democracy, presumably, here are the people who cannot vote in the Labour leadership election:
Anyone who became a registered supporter within the past year but who hasn't got £25;
Anyone who became a full subscription-paying member of the party after February 2016;
Anyone who has joined a union since the referendum to get an affiliated union vote.

So - the people who want to support Corbyn and the people who want to support "Saving Labour" (sic) but were not fully paid-up members before February will not get a say in who leads their party.
The current membership is about 515,000 - of those, at least 100,000 joined since the "Chicken Coup" started; 200,000 joined after the GE, as the membership was just over 200,000 on GE day in 2015.

It would seem that the NEC are happy to prevent half the current membership from voting.
The NEC has also banned all CLPs from having any meetings at all until the contest is over.

Nobody knows which way the people excluded from the ballot would have voted - and now we never will.
The ban on CLP meetings is apparently aimed at preventing threats/violence - of which both sides are guilty.

This is absolutely ridiculous.