mbc1955 wrote:I suppose Sunday's the appropriate day for the smell of burning martyrs...
I've got some kindling if it's any use......
mbc1955 wrote:I suppose Sunday's the appropriate day for the smell of burning martyrs...
It doesn't feel like it to me...BTL on the site I belong to there's very little comment about the widening gap and how people are being affected. Comments about Red Militants and the similarity of behaviour, etc etc, from the Blair camp usually gets more reaction.yahyah wrote:Two distinct parties ? Is there no one in the middle ground ? Is it really so polarised there are no grey areas left ?
You have said it so much better than I could...RobertSnozers wrote:It's this that I've been struggling with. Yes, the last Labour government was better in some respects than the Tory alternative would have been.yahyah wrote:I don't agree with OhSo that we might as well vote Tory if we have a more middle/right Labour leader or party.
Just look at what happened under the Thatcher and Major years, and the Coalition and Cameron's lot without the Lib Dems.
Wouldn't it be far better to compromise, hard though that might be for our individual egos, the part of us that tells us we are right and everyone else is wrong, and be able to win an election, than be idealists who are rejected at the ballot box
It'd be tough enough for a Labour leader people like Rentoul, or the Guardian, would warm to.
Giving the media someone they hate again is a burden Labour doesn't have the luxury of going for surely ?
If Labour splits, it will be those who need a Labour government most who will suffer in the short term, and maybe even the longer term.
I would bet my house that a centre/right Labour government, for all its sins would still be much better than a Tory one.
However, I have a number of very serious problems with it as an argument:
1. It's the 'any Labour government is better than any Tory government' that the Progress neoliberals who have been taking over the party for twenty years are banking on. They push us to accept things like academies, foundation trusts, expansion of PFI and even privatisation because they claim it's inevitable and they'd do it more fairly.
2. It narrows politics and moves it to the right. Now we have coalition and even Tory govenments extending their agendas using mechanisms that were put in place by a Labour government. Labour has made it easier and more acceptable for the Tories to push their own agenda to the right. It makes it harder for Labour to be Labour. It might already be too late.
3. Sometimes Labour isn't better. Remember how appallingly New Labour treated Toby and others in his position? Their use of 'benefit scrounger' rhetoric and extension to those with disabilities contributed to divisions within society and that is NOT what Labour should be about.
So I will fight against this degree of compromise with every breath in my body, and it will only be with the heaviest of hearts that I vote for a neo-Blairite Labour. And if one of the current plotters ends up in charge, I'm sorry but I won't be voting Labour at all, because whatever the politics they claim to espouse, I can't trust them.
Come on people! Think of Magna Carta. Did she die in vain?RobertSnozers wrote:This is your first warning, citizen - you have used language which could be interpreted by the faux-outraged centre rightists as bullying and twisted to look as though you actually wanted to burn them at the stake, and repeated/misquoted by teary eyed MPs and party officials in front of a serious looking Adam Boulton.ephemerid wrote:mbc1955 wrote:I suppose Sunday's the appropriate day for the smell of burning martyrs...
I've got some kindling if it's any use......
mbc1955 wrote:As you know, I am binge-watching 'Person of Interest'.
I have now moved on to the fifth and final (truncated) season that actually finished less than a month ago and have watched its first episode. By now, the fascistic AI has established total authority over every aspect of everyday life. To take this final step it has carried out The Correction, a phase in which a couple of hundred people were killed. The common factor in all those people is that they questioned, challenged, acted against authority. Only the four principal characters of the series remain to refuse to be cowed, borne under, suborned, channeled into a life with narrow parameters and predictable ends.
It's only fiction, and it's paranoid fiction at that (very high-grade paranoid fiction to boot). And it feels appallingly familiar. Because it's Theresa May's Tory Party, and it's what will be Owen Smith's Labour Party.
People in the middle may not wish to put their head above the parapet for fear of being shouted down by both sides.ohsocynical wrote:It doesn't feel like it to me...BTL on the site I belong to there's very little comment about the widening gap and how people are being affected. Comments about Red Militants and the similarity of behaviour, etc etc, from the Blair camp usually gets more reaction.yahyah wrote:Two distinct parties ? Is there no one in the middle ground ? Is it really so polarised there are no grey areas left ?
A few people try and I know some of the ladies do good things in the community in the name of Labour, but it's not spoken about much.
As far as I can see there is a huge chasm. About the only way I can describe it is if you put some of the arm chair pundits who've read all the books and understood them, in a room with regular people who're struggling to keep their heads above water, it would be as if each side were talking to each other in obscure foreign languages.
Pauline Lane @Antonineone1 43m43 minutes ago
Owen Smith is my MP & I've met him
We must avoid negative personal remarks
So I'll just say
Corbyn has charisma, a sense of humour & charm
I'm not talking about FTN btw, but another site I belong to.Willow904 wrote:People in the middle may not wish to put their head above the parapet for fear of being shouted down by both sides.ohsocynical wrote:It doesn't feel like it to me...BTL on the site I belong to there's very little comment about the widening gap and how people are being affected. Comments about Red Militants and the similarity of behaviour, etc etc, from the Blair camp usually gets more reaction.yahyah wrote:Two distinct parties ? Is there no one in the middle ground ? Is it really so polarised there are no grey areas left ?
A few people try and I know some of the ladies do good things in the community in the name of Labour, but it's not spoken about much.
As far as I can see there is a huge chasm. About the only way I can describe it is if you put some of the arm chair pundits who've read all the books and understood them, in a room with regular people who're struggling to keep their heads above water, it would be as if each side were talking to each other in obscure foreign languages.
tinyclanger2 wrote:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 40721.html
We always have been and always will be ####ed because deep in our souls we are still a bunch of cap doffers who believe what we read in the papers.
yeah, if only Tory MPs & Lords are polled, surePoll: Voters do not want second EU referendum and say Theresa May should continue without general election
Exclusive: ComRes opinion poll for The Independent indicates new PM will not face pressure to call snap election
As are neither Liverpool nor Manchester nor ... These are what we call cities, Nicola, which are filled, as we know with the elite. Indeed EVERY SINGLE PERSON living in any city are representatives of the UK's elite. London, on the other hand IS indeed a region of the UK, which, with a population of more than 8 million is 30 percent bigger than Scotland.“I would point out gently to Angela Eagle that there is a different between Scotland and Liverpool and London,” Ms Sturgeon said. “Scotland is not a region of the UK, Scotland is a nation and if we cannot protect our interests within a UK that is going to be changing fundamentally then that right of Scotland to consider the options of independence has to be there.”
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 41231.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Now here's a man that convinced he's got it in the bag.Mirror Politics @MirrorPolitics 5h5 hours ago
.@OwenSmith_MP says he will serve and work with Corbyn if he wins because "always we need to serve Labour" #marr
It's not only in the NHS.thatchersorphan wrote:http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ca ... ar_twitter Cash-strapped NHS trusts are asking people to work for FREE
The UK is free to negotiate AU trade deals without the UK leaving the EUIn a phone call on Saturday, May spoke to her Australian counterpart, Malcolm Turnbull, who expressed his desire to open up trading between the two countries as a matter of urgency. Turnbull said: “We did discuss a free-trade agreement ... Clearly our free-trade arrangements with the United Kingdom are with the European community."
[May] has asked the new international trade secretary, Liam Fox, to begin exploring options but acknowledged that Britain could not sign any deals while it was still an EU member.
[Fox] told the Sunday Times: “We’ve already had a number of countries saying, ‘We’d love to do a trade deal with the world’s fifth biggest economy without having to deal with the other 27 members of the EU’.”
David Davis, the minister for Brexit, has said EU citizens may be blocked from staying in Britain permanently even if they arrive before the country leaves the union.
Davis told the Mail on Sunday: “We may have to deal with that. There are a variety of possibilities. We may have to say that the right to indefinite leave to remain protection only applies before a certain date. But you have to make those judgments on reality, not speculation.”
He stopped short of guaranteeing the status of EU nationals already in the country...
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... th-britain" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It is a bit too soon for Starmer, I think. As for Jarvis - compelling back story but a bit less so as a politician is maybe a not unfair summary?TobyLatimer wrote:Watching Owen Smith's leadership launch.
I wish I could believe his desire to be leader are as honoruable genuine as he says. Something niggling me about this and Angela Eagle's bid too is this, if things are that genuinely that bad without hope why aren't Starmer and Jarvis making a bid also ?
Can you write more, please?tinyclanger2 wrote:The whole people thing.
What's that all about.
Sorry, just back from shopping.yahyah wrote:mbc1955 wrote:As you know, I am binge-watching 'Person of Interest'.
I have now moved on to the fifth and final (truncated) season that actually finished less than a month ago and have watched its first episode. By now, the fascistic AI has established total authority over every aspect of everyday life. To take this final step it has carried out The Correction, a phase in which a couple of hundred people were killed. The common factor in all those people is that they questioned, challenged, acted against authority. Only the four principal characters of the series remain to refuse to be cowed, borne under, suborned, channeled into a life with narrow parameters and predictable ends.
It's only fiction, and it's paranoid fiction at that (very high-grade paranoid fiction to boot). And it feels appallingly familiar. Because it's Theresa May's Tory Party, and it's what will be Owen Smith's Labour Party.
We've started recording it again since you & PF wrote about it.
Am trying to pick up the story again, and is it just me or has it got much noisier and more action orientated ? Am not fully convinced a Smith led Labour party would lead to such dystopia.
I think Keir Starmer is still coming to terms with the strange entity called Parliament.TobyLatimer wrote:Watching Owen Smith's leadership launch.
I wish I could believe his desire to be leader are as honoruable genuine as he says. Something niggling me about this and Angela Eagle's bid too is this, if things are that genuinely that bad without hope why aren't Starmer and Jarvis making a bid also ?
Jarvis was getting digs in earlier on. Starmer joined in with the walk out. They'll have to come up with better than them.AnatolyKasparov wrote:It is a bit too soon for Starmer, I think. As for Jarvis - compelling back story but a bit less so as a politician is maybe a not unfair summary?TobyLatimer wrote:Watching Owen Smith's leadership launch.
I wish I could believe his desire to be leader are as honoruable genuine as he says. Something niggling me about this and Angela Eagle's bid too is this, if things are that genuinely that bad without hope why aren't Starmer and Jarvis making a bid also ?
I've got a useless bloody Tory.AngryAsWell wrote:Here is Thangam Debbonaire's web page
http://www.debbonaire.co.uk/about" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If you click on My Views at the top right, you may find this MP, who works hard, holds views and opinions very similar to those held by many who post here.
She was appointed Shadow Arts and Culture Minister. She later resigned
Here is Thangam Debbonaire's twitter feed
https://twitter.com/ThangamMP" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Just one example
"for the avoidance of any doubt, as that so-called friend has now cowardly deleted it: I was having treatment for cancer you coward"
Here is Thangam Debbonaire reason for resigning, note in particular that not only did she not know (till reading about it in the press) that she had been appointed, she also was not told she had been sacked.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Lot's of people said after Joe Cox was murdered "I wish all MP's were as hard working & kind"
Well if people check on what their MP's are doing - actually doing - instead of broad brushing them as a conglomerate, thoughtless, self-serving mass, politics might be a better, kinder, brighter, more loving place to be.
#MoreInCommon
Sorry - was a bit existential.citizenJA wrote:Can you write more, please?tinyclanger2 wrote:The whole people thing.
What's that all about.
And just wondered, what's the point. If we are so monumentally stupid, and so easily swayed by a fundamentally crap press.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 41171.html
A third of Labour voters think Theresa May would make a better Prime Minister than Jeremy Corbyn
There's very little.fedup59 wrote:With difficulty - and many reservations about the silence of the wider PLP as they seemed to feel it unnecessary to openly discuss how their disconnection from a great many of their own CLPs demonstrates their superior knowledge of what is needed - I am trying to see/understand what the challengers are offering to the membership. Beyond their own belief that they can somehow unify members and PLP, what are they offering, or is that it?
Just a general illustration of my current feeling of what's the point-ness.http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/surge-numbers- ... te-1571050" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
More than 100 children were reported for racial or religious abuse during 2015, some as young as three. The figures have almost doubled compared to those reported in 2011, according to data released to the Sunday People which was provided under Freedom of Information laws.
Much as I dislike the banking industry, I struggle to see how under the current economic model, this can be good for Britain.http://www.cityam.com/245618/one-quarte ... uld-become" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
More than half of London's finance firms which make use of the EU's passporting rights that let them do business across Europe said they would have to relocate at least some of their operations if they could not retain access to the Single Market on similar terms. Technology companies also raised the prospect of moving so they could continue to hire staff from the other 27 EU countries.
RobertSnozers wrote:This is your first warning, citizen - you have used language which could be interpreted by the faux-outraged centre rightists as bullying and twisted to look as though you actually wanted to burn them at the stake, and repeated/misquoted by teary eyed MPs and party officials in front of a serious looking Adam Boulton.ephemerid wrote:mbc1955 wrote:I suppose Sunday's the appropriate day for the smell of burning martyrs...
I've got some kindling if it's any use......
Ummmmmm -----tinyclanger2 wrote:For example: what has Theresa May ever done to suggest she will be a good PM?
You can, but we (Brits) appear to have relaxed into a "May will do a cracking job" bizarre dystopia instead.ohsocynical wrote:JeremyCorbyn4PM @JeremyCorbyn4PM 6m6 minutes ago
"You can win and you can change things" - Jeremy opens speech to #Tolpuddle Festival 2016
Excellent - tens of thousands fewer "experts" and more space for me to bring up my racist 3-year-old.http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... ost-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“One of my colleagues, a Royal Society fellow, had multiple job offers from Germany within days of the referendum result,” he said. “I have also heard that the US is chasing European scientists working in the UK now. Many of them will feel they are no longer welcome here after Brexit and will be tempted to leave. The government has to reassure them they are welcome in the UK.”
ohsocynical wrote:Ummmmmm -----tinyclanger2 wrote:For example: what has Theresa May ever done to suggest she will be a good PM?