Saturday 16th & Sunday 17th July 2016

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 1:34 pm

mbc1955 wrote:I suppose Sunday's the appropriate day for the smell of burning martyrs...

I've got some kindling if it's any use......

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 1:44 pm

yahyah wrote:Two distinct parties ? Is there no one in the middle ground ? Is it really so polarised there are no grey areas left ?

It doesn't feel like it to me...BTL on the site I belong to there's very little comment about the widening gap and how people are being affected. Comments about Red Militants and the similarity of behaviour, etc etc, from the Blair camp usually gets more reaction.
A few people try and I know some of the ladies do good things in the community in the name of Labour, but it's not spoken about much.

As far as I can see there is a huge chasm. About the only way I can describe it is if you put some of the arm chair pundits who've read all the books and understood them, in a room with regular people who're struggling to keep their heads above water, it would be as if each side were talking to each other in obscure foreign languages.

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 1:46 pm

Is JC the ideal leader? No. But he has his qualities. When he's interviewed for example he answers the question. I lost count of the times I saw the Umunnas, Coopers and yes, Milibands squirming to try and answer the question they wanted to be asked. This basic honesty of Corbyn's strikes a chord with me. It's a good defence against the right wing journalists who just want to ask the same question over and over to illustrate your equivocation. I really don't want to vote for a cliche delivery service.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 1:46 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
yahyah wrote:I don't agree with OhSo that we might as well vote Tory if we have a more middle/right Labour leader or party.

Just look at what happened under the Thatcher and Major years, and the Coalition and Cameron's lot without the Lib Dems.

Wouldn't it be far better to compromise, hard though that might be for our individual egos, the part of us that tells us we are right and everyone else is wrong, and be able to win an election, than be idealists who are rejected at the ballot box

It'd be tough enough for a Labour leader people like Rentoul, or the Guardian, would warm to.
Giving the media someone they hate again is a burden Labour doesn't have the luxury of going for surely ?

If Labour splits, it will be those who need a Labour government most who will suffer in the short term, and maybe even the longer term.
I would bet my house that a centre/right Labour government, for all its sins would still be much better than a Tory one.
It's this that I've been struggling with. Yes, the last Labour government was better in some respects than the Tory alternative would have been.

However, I have a number of very serious problems with it as an argument:

1. It's the 'any Labour government is better than any Tory government' that the Progress neoliberals who have been taking over the party for twenty years are banking on. They push us to accept things like academies, foundation trusts, expansion of PFI and even privatisation because they claim it's inevitable and they'd do it more fairly.

2. It narrows politics and moves it to the right. Now we have coalition and even Tory govenments extending their agendas using mechanisms that were put in place by a Labour government. Labour has made it easier and more acceptable for the Tories to push their own agenda to the right. It makes it harder for Labour to be Labour. It might already be too late.

3. Sometimes Labour isn't better. Remember how appallingly New Labour treated Toby and others in his position? Their use of 'benefit scrounger' rhetoric and extension to those with disabilities contributed to divisions within society and that is NOT what Labour should be about.

So I will fight against this degree of compromise with every breath in my body, and it will only be with the heaviest of hearts that I vote for a neo-Blairite Labour. And if one of the current plotters ends up in charge, I'm sorry but I won't be voting Labour at all, because whatever the politics they claim to espouse, I can't trust them.

You have said it so much better than I could...

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 1:53 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
ephemerid wrote:
mbc1955 wrote:I suppose Sunday's the appropriate day for the smell of burning martyrs...

I've got some kindling if it's any use......
This is your first warning, citizen - you have used language which could be interpreted by the faux-outraged centre rightists as bullying and twisted to look as though you actually wanted to burn them at the stake, and repeated/misquoted by teary eyed MPs and party officials in front of a serious looking Adam Boulton.

Come on people! Think of Magna Carta. Did she die in vain?

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 1:57 pm

As you know, I am binge-watching 'Person of Interest'.

I have now moved on to the fifth and final (truncated) season that actually finished less than a month ago and have watched its first episode. By now, the fascistic AI has established total authority over every aspect of everyday life. To take this final step it has carried out The Correction, a phase in which a couple of hundred people were killed. The common factor in all those people is that they questioned, challenged, acted against authority. Only the four principal characters of the series remain to refuse to be cowed, borne under, suborned, channeled into a life with narrow parameters and predictable ends.

It's only fiction, and it's paranoid fiction at that (very high-grade paranoid fiction to boot). And it feels appallingly familiar. Because it's Theresa May's Tory Party, and it's what will be Owen Smith's Labour Party.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 1:57 pm

Have a lot of sympathy with Maugham's points.
It is feeling abandoned to Brexit that makes me feel less trust in Corbyn, and Labour's opposition.

https://waitingfortax.com/2016/07/16/an ... to-the-48/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 1:57 pm

And something else that convinces me there's an unsurmountable gap...

Can't find the post now, but it was a discussion about behaviour at meetings and one BTL comment said using good grammar and learning how to debate politely was so much more effective and so on.
He was quite right but failed to point out it depended which side of the divide you were standing on.

It was one of those times when I needed to get up from the computer, and roll a ciggie.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 2:00 pm

mbc1955 wrote:As you know, I am binge-watching 'Person of Interest'.

I have now moved on to the fifth and final (truncated) season that actually finished less than a month ago and have watched its first episode. By now, the fascistic AI has established total authority over every aspect of everyday life. To take this final step it has carried out The Correction, a phase in which a couple of hundred people were killed. The common factor in all those people is that they questioned, challenged, acted against authority. Only the four principal characters of the series remain to refuse to be cowed, borne under, suborned, channeled into a life with narrow parameters and predictable ends.

It's only fiction, and it's paranoid fiction at that (very high-grade paranoid fiction to boot). And it feels appallingly familiar. Because it's Theresa May's Tory Party, and it's what will be Owen Smith's Labour Party.

We've started recording it again since you & PF wrote about it.
Am trying to pick up the story again, and is it just me or has it got much noisier and more action orientated ? Am not fully convinced a Smith led Labour party would lead to such dystopia.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 2:04 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
yahyah wrote:Two distinct parties ? Is there no one in the middle ground ? Is it really so polarised there are no grey areas left ?
It doesn't feel like it to me...BTL on the site I belong to there's very little comment about the widening gap and how people are being affected. Comments about Red Militants and the similarity of behaviour, etc etc, from the Blair camp usually gets more reaction.
A few people try and I know some of the ladies do good things in the community in the name of Labour, but it's not spoken about much.

As far as I can see there is a huge chasm. About the only way I can describe it is if you put some of the arm chair pundits who've read all the books and understood them, in a room with regular people who're struggling to keep their heads above water, it would be as if each side were talking to each other in obscure foreign languages.

People in the middle may not wish to put their head above the parapet for fear of being shouted down by both sides.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 2:06 pm

Pauline Lane ‏@Antonineone1 43m43 minutes ago

Owen Smith is my MP & I've met him
We must avoid negative personal remarks
So I'll just say
Corbyn has charisma, a sense of humour & charm

Maeght · Post by **Maeght** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 2:13 pm

http://www.bryangould.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
How did it come to this?

I came to this via Ohso's link to the Guardian above - thank you.

This is the article which sums up what I feel. Thanks to Bryan Gould for articulating what I have felt for the last 20 years (at least) and which I have only been able to express - and boring my friends rigid - by asserting, "I blame Mrs Thatcher".

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 2:18 pm

Good-afternoon, everyone.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 2:34 pm

Willow904 wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
yahyah wrote:Two distinct parties ? Is there no one in the middle ground ? Is it really so polarised there are no grey areas left ?
It doesn't feel like it to me...BTL on the site I belong to there's very little comment about the widening gap and how people are being affected. Comments about Red Militants and the similarity of behaviour, etc etc, from the Blair camp usually gets more reaction.
A few people try and I know some of the ladies do good things in the community in the name of Labour, but it's not spoken about much.

As far as I can see there is a huge chasm. About the only way I can describe it is if you put some of the arm chair pundits who've read all the books and understood them, in a room with regular people who're struggling to keep their heads above water, it would be as if each side were talking to each other in obscure foreign languages.
People in the middle may not wish to put their head above the parapet for fear of being shouted down by both sides.

I'm not talking about FTN btw, but another site I belong to.

I have to say so far, the ones who are most dismissive are those on the right. They rarely seem to post articles that puts the far right's side, [there is a dearth of articles about what the right aims to do that's different from Corbyn's] but seem to object that most of the posts are about Corbyn - which in itself seems weird to me when he is the Leader - then give an abrupt 'rubbish' to anything that puts him in a good light.

The last time 'Rubbish!' appeared beneath an article I lost patience and replied with one word; 'Discuss!'. He didn't take up my offer though.
That seemed to upset some of the people that belong to the site but don't post much. They don't post their disquiet though. They just complain to the person that runs it.

Still not sure whether it was 'Rubbish!' or 'Discuss!' that upset them.
I sometimes forget that we are used to a more 'cut and thrust' forthright style of comment here on FTN.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 2:42 pm

I found the comment that convinces me the chasm is too big.

In every aspect of discussion or debate,if one is to be taken seriously and make an impression on others, it is important to exercise a modicum of rational principles and reasoned judgement. It is amazing, the difference in which the perception of language can have on one's point of view in a debate or discussion.

thatchersorphan · Post by **thatchersorphan** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 2:48 pm

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ca ... ar_twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Cash-strapped NHS trusts are asking people to work for FREE

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 2:54 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 40721.html
We always have been and always will be ####ed because deep in our souls we are still a bunch of cap doffers who believe what we read in the papers.

Poll: Voters do not want second EU referendum and say Theresa May should continue without general election
Exclusive: ComRes opinion poll for The Independent indicates new PM will not face pressure to call snap election

yeah, if only Tory MPs & Lords are polled, sure
I feel as though I've never been insulted before now

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 2:55 pm

“I would point out gently to Angela Eagle that there is a different between Scotland and Liverpool and London,” Ms Sturgeon said. “Scotland is not a region of the UK, Scotland is a nation and if we cannot protect our interests within a UK that is going to be changing fundamentally then that right of Scotland to consider the options of independence has to be there.”
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 41231.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As are neither Liverpool nor Manchester nor ... These are what we call cities, Nicola, which are filled, as we know with the elite. Indeed EVERY SINGLE PERSON living in any city are representatives of the UK's elite. London, on the other hand IS indeed a region of the UK, which, with a population of more than 8 million is 30 percent bigger than Scotland.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 3:03 pm

Mirror Politics ‏@MirrorPolitics 5h5 hours ago

.@OwenSmith_MP says he will serve and work with Corbyn if he wins because "always we need to serve Labour" #marr

Now here's a man that convinced he's got it in the bag.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 3:13 pm

Now please everyone don't take offence at this, and please remember I'm working class so it's aimed at my section of society.

Imagine the guy who's going to a Labour party meeting. Who's been voting UKIP for the last bit because he believes Labour has got too 'up itself'. Cue immigration, shortage of council houses and low pay. Who's working for minimum wage at a local warehouse. Has two kids to clothe and feed, and can't even afford a week at the seaside in a caravan.
Imagine what he would say if he was handed a bit of paper saying:

In every aspect of discussion or debate, if one is to be taken seriously and make an impression on others, it is important to exercise a modicum of rational principles and reasoned judgement. It is amazing, the difference in which the perception of language can have on one's point of view in a debate or discussion.

How about, 'What?'

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 3:18 pm

Watching Owen Smith's leadership launch.

I wish I could believe his desire to be leader are as honoruable genuine as he says. Something niggling me about this and Angela Eagle's bid too is this, if things are that genuinely that bad without hope why aren't Starmer and Jarvis making a bid also ?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 3:21 pm

thatchersorphan wrote:http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ca ... ar_twitter Cash-strapped NHS trusts are asking people to work for FREE

It's not only in the NHS.

Our council has put out its groundwork to tender. Private sector, lower wages, shortage of workers, work not being done.

I've just discovered our Arts centre which had a grant to create a knot garden in keeping with its history a few years ago, is using a club of 'enthusiastic' volunteers to help keep the gardens weeded and so on. "We couldn't keep it looking so nice without them" a council official enthused. For free of course.

And then the council will boast how well it's managing the drastically reduced budget it's been given, and Labour couldn't do half as well.

F*****g hell!

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 3:25 pm

ClangerMedia presents: brief almost entirely uninformed summaries of today's news

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 37581.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
50 percent of UK think Union won't exist in 10 years.

And indeed Nicola Sturgeon is preparing for a Scottish referendum next year
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... dum-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
at the same time as 60 % of us say we can't be arsed any more http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 40721.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; so let's just get on with it.

Meanwhile members of other European countries continue to learn through our mistake.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 36426.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 3:27 pm

In a phone call on Saturday, May spoke to her Australian counterpart, Malcolm Turnbull, who expressed his desire to open up trading between the two countries as a matter of urgency. Turnbull said: “We did discuss a free-trade agreement ... Clearly our free-trade arrangements with the United Kingdom are with the European community."

[May] has asked the new international trade secretary, Liam Fox, to begin exploring options but acknowledged that Britain could not sign any deals while it was still an EU member.

[Fox] told the Sunday Times: “We’ve already had a number of countries saying, ‘We’d love to do a trade deal with the world’s fifth biggest economy without having to deal with the other 27 members of the EU’.”

David Davis, the minister for Brexit, has said EU citizens may be blocked from staying in Britain permanently even if they arrive before the country leaves the union.

Davis told the Mail on Sunday: “We may have to deal with that. There are a variety of possibilities. We may have to say that the right to indefinite leave to remain protection only applies before a certain date. But you have to make those judgments on reality, not speculation.”

He stopped short of guaranteeing the status of EU nationals already in the country...

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... th-britain" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The UK is free to negotiate AU trade deals without the UK leaving the EU
The UK is free to negotiate trade deals with other non-EU nations without leaving the EU
Davis' and May won't guarantee the status of EU nationals in the UK now - outrageous
The entire article is all over the place disaster area stuff I'd expect to read about happening in a war-torn nation where legislation, treaties, law have all been set on fire and made worthless

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 3:32 pm

TobyLatimer wrote:Watching Owen Smith's leadership launch.

I wish I could believe his desire to be leader are as honoruable genuine as he says. Something niggling me about this and Angela Eagle's bid too is this, if things are that genuinely that bad without hope why aren't Starmer and Jarvis making a bid also ?

It is a bit too soon for Starmer, I think. As for Jarvis - compelling back story but a bit less so as a politician is maybe a not unfair summary?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 3:37 pm

The whole people thing.
What's that all about.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 3:41 pm

Cheers Anatoly, I just find it strange that with all the worry and disorder that the PLP have voiced about JC - only these two, Smith and Eagle are the only ones putting their names forward.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 3:41 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:The whole people thing.
What's that all about.

Can you write more, please?

fedup59 · Post by **fedup59** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 3:43 pm

With difficulty - and many reservations about the silence of the wider PLP as they seemed to feel it unnecessary to openly discuss how their disconnection from a great many of their own CLPs demonstrates their superior knowledge of what is needed - I am trying to see/understand what the challengers are offering to the membership. Beyond their own belief that they can somehow unify members and PLP, what are they offering, or is that it?

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 3:45 pm

Here is Thangam Debbonaire's web page
http://www.debbonaire.co.uk/about" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If you click on My Views at the top right, you may find this MP, who works hard, holds views and opinions very similar to those held by many who post here.
She was appointed Shadow Arts and Culture Minister. She later resigned
Here is Thangam Debbonaire's twitter feed
https://twitter.com/ThangamMP" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Just one example
"for the avoidance of any doubt, as that so-called friend has now cowardly deleted it: I was having treatment for cancer you coward"

Here is Thangam Debbonaire reason for resigning, note in particular that not only did she not know (till reading about it in the press) that she had been appointed, she also was not told she had been sacked.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lot's of people said after Joe Cox was murdered "I wish all MP's were as hard working & kind"
Well if people check on what their MP's are doing - actually doing - instead of broad brushing them as a conglomerate, thoughtless, self-serving mass, politics might be a better, kinder, brighter, more loving place to be.

#MoreInCommon

mbc1955 · Post by **mbc1955** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 3:50 pm

yahyah wrote:
mbc1955 wrote:As you know, I am binge-watching 'Person of Interest'.

I have now moved on to the fifth and final (truncated) season that actually finished less than a month ago and have watched its first episode. By now, the fascistic AI has established total authority over every aspect of everyday life. To take this final step it has carried out The Correction, a phase in which a couple of hundred people were killed. The common factor in all those people is that they questioned, challenged, acted against authority. Only the four principal characters of the series remain to refuse to be cowed, borne under, suborned, channeled into a life with narrow parameters and predictable ends.

It's only fiction, and it's paranoid fiction at that (very high-grade paranoid fiction to boot). And it feels appallingly familiar. Because it's Theresa May's Tory Party, and it's what will be Owen Smith's Labour Party.

We've started recording it again since you & PF wrote about it.
Am trying to pick up the story again, and is it just me or has it got much noisier and more action orientated ? Am not fully convinced a Smith led Labour party would lead to such dystopia.

Sorry, just back from shopping.

Honestly, it depends on where you left off and where you're trying to pick up again. The ratchet has been turning since fairly early in season 3, with the fascistic AI and the corporation that's developed/unleashed it actively targeting Team Machine. As a consequence, the pressure is getting higher and the team has to be even more on its toes.

Ultimately, the series is dramatising the war on dissent, and the eliminating of those who don't fit the prevailing narrative of those wielding power. I see that in Smith and his track record. Of course he's going to say otherwise.

Maeght · Post by **Maeght** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 3:53 pm

TobyLatimer wrote:Watching Owen Smith's leadership launch.

I wish I could believe his desire to be leader are as honoruable genuine as he says. Something niggling me about this and Angela Eagle's bid too is this, if things are that genuinely that bad without hope why aren't Starmer and Jarvis making a bid also ?

I think Keir Starmer is still coming to terms with the strange entity called Parliament.

A couple of months ago I saw him pose a question to the government about housing - I forget the details - but he talked very briefly and succinctly about one of his constituents who had housing difficulties. He asked for a clear ,understandable answer for this constituent. I thought it was a really good question and one that Ohso's possible voter would have immediately understood.

He was totally ignored. Nobody even acknowledged the question.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 4:07 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
TobyLatimer wrote:Watching Owen Smith's leadership launch.

I wish I could believe his desire to be leader are as honoruable genuine as he says. Something niggling me about this and Angela Eagle's bid too is this, if things are that genuinely that bad without hope why aren't Starmer and Jarvis making a bid also ?
It is a bit too soon for Starmer, I think. As for Jarvis - compelling back story but a bit less so as a politician is maybe a not unfair summary?

Jarvis was getting digs in earlier on. Starmer joined in with the walk out. They'll have to come up with better than them.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 4:09 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:Here is Thangam Debbonaire's web page
http://www.debbonaire.co.uk/about" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If you click on My Views at the top right, you may find this MP, who works hard, holds views and opinions very similar to those held by many who post here.
She was appointed Shadow Arts and Culture Minister. She later resigned
Here is Thangam Debbonaire's twitter feed
https://twitter.com/ThangamMP" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Just one example
"for the avoidance of any doubt, as that so-called friend has now cowardly deleted it: I was having treatment for cancer you coward"

Here is Thangam Debbonaire reason for resigning, note in particular that not only did she not know (till reading about it in the press) that she had been appointed, she also was not told she had been sacked.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lot's of people said after Joe Cox was murdered "I wish all MP's were as hard working & kind"
Well if people check on what their MP's are doing - actually doing - instead of broad brushing them as a conglomerate, thoughtless, self-serving mass, politics might be a better, kinder, brighter, more loving place to be.

#MoreInCommon

I've got a useless bloody Tory.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 4:11 pm

@ AngryAsWell
Thank you for your links and post.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 4:17 pm

citizenJA wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:The whole people thing.
What's that all about.
Can you write more, please?

Sorry - was a bit existential.

Had seen this:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 41171.html

A third of Labour voters think Theresa May would make a better Prime Minister than Jeremy Corbyn

And just wondered, what's the point. If we are so monumentally stupid, and so easily swayed by a fundamentally crap press.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 4:17 pm

I'm frightened by current Tory government and their leadership now. I doubt I'm the only one scared.

Tory ministers, newly appointed by an MP turned PM, elected by no one other than the electorate in Maidenhead, UK and chosen by Tories behind a door somewhere - playing with the lives of EU nationals living in the UK and the UK/EU citizens living in the EU. Jerking around regular people, jobs gone, businesses shut, scientists, academics, families, human beings' lives thrown into chaos by this Tory government been there doing the same noxious leadership for over six full years without the intention of stopping at nothing less than breaking everything to pieces. Wealthy people will be okay. I don't think most people are in a position to weather current Tory government leadership.

People who aren't Tory government, their supporters, party members need to come together or we'll go down one by one.

Have a good evening, everyone.
love,
cJA

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 4:18 pm

For example: what has Theresa May ever done to suggest she will be a good PM?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 4:25 pm

fedup59 wrote:With difficulty - and many reservations about the silence of the wider PLP as they seemed to feel it unnecessary to openly discuss how their disconnection from a great many of their own CLPs demonstrates their superior knowledge of what is needed - I am trying to see/understand what the challengers are offering to the membership. Beyond their own belief that they can somehow unify members and PLP, what are they offering, or is that it?

There's very little.

I post articles on my local Labour party Facebook page, plus interesting Tweets and sometimes stories that aren't verified when I say 'Anybody know'? or 'Is this right?'

Classic example was when Watson dismissed the meeting he was going to have with a Union in a very short Tweet that sort of implied the Union had refused to talk. I posted the Tweet. Then posted the letter from the Union which explained what had happened and added that when I found the explanation about what had happened from Watson - in other words his side of the story - I'd post it.

Never found it.

It seems to have happened a lot. Plenty of Corbyn's unelectable, but not why [except the old hogwash about election results and the Ref.] his policies are going to be so bad for the country. Policies are rarely mentioned in any context.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 4:29 pm

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/surge-numbers- ... te-1571050" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
More than 100 children were reported for racial or religious abuse during 2015, some as young as three. The figures have almost doubled compared to those reported in 2011, according to data released to the Sunday People which was provided under Freedom of Information laws.

Just a general illustration of my current feeling of what's the point-ness.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 4:41 pm

http://www.cityam.com/245618/one-quarte ... uld-become" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
More than half of London's finance firms which make use of the EU's passporting rights that let them do business across Europe said they would have to relocate at least some of their operations if they could not retain access to the Single Market on similar terms. Technology companies also raised the prospect of moving so they could continue to hire staff from the other 27 EU countries.

Much as I dislike the banking industry, I struggle to see how under the current economic model, this can be good for Britain.
Although since half of us have already accepted that Britain will no longer exist, and can't be arsed doing anything about it, I guess it doesn't really matter.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 4:43 pm

Sorry will go and address mood.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 4:44 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
ephemerid wrote:
mbc1955 wrote:I suppose Sunday's the appropriate day for the smell of burning martyrs...

I've got some kindling if it's any use......
This is your first warning, citizen - you have used language which could be interpreted by the faux-outraged centre rightists as bullying and twisted to look as though you actually wanted to burn them at the stake, and repeated/misquoted by teary eyed MPs and party officials in front of a serious looking Adam Boulton.

I rolled my eyes just now. I did.

Kyle Edmund is now playing a tie-break to decide a set he should have won a few minutes ago.

You'll have to send me to Room 101.

If he wins, I'll pump my fists I will.

You'll have to send me twice.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 4:46 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:For example: what has Theresa May ever done to suggest she will be a good PM?

Ummmmmm -----

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 4:53 pm

JeremyCorbyn4PM ‏@JeremyCorbyn4PM 6m6 minutes ago

"You can win and you can change things" - Jeremy opens speech to #Tolpuddle Festival 2016

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 4:58 pm

ohsocynical wrote:JeremyCorbyn4PM ‏@JeremyCorbyn4PM 6m6 minutes ago

"You can win and you can change things" - Jeremy opens speech to #Tolpuddle Festival 2016

You can, but we (Brits) appear to have relaxed into a "May will do a cracking job" bizarre dystopia instead.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 5:02 pm

Yay! GB is in the Davis Cup semi-finals!

(Pumps fists, rolls eyes, points fingers, refuses to sit still - might as well be Room 101'd for a sheep as a lamb....)

AAW - lovely to see you here. Please stay!

The business about Ms.Debbonnaire sounds very bad, although Corbyn's office said that she had not been sacked although there was some "miscommunication" about her role.
It is obviously very wrong to treat someone badly at any time, let alone when they are undergoing cancer treatment; but I wonder why this has all come out now and not when it was happening last year?

As I posted yesterday, I just don't know what to believe any more. There seems to be a massive communication problem - whether that's down to the MSM (which, if LSE is correct, has a lot to answer for), Corbyn's office and spokespeople, or the people who are trying to get rid of him.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 5:08 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... ost-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“One of my colleagues, a Royal Society fellow, had multiple job offers from Germany within days of the referendum result,” he said. “I have also heard that the US is chasing European scientists working in the UK now. Many of them will feel they are no longer welcome here after Brexit and will be tempted to leave. The government has to reassure them they are welcome in the UK.”

Excellent - tens of thousands fewer "experts" and more space for me to bring up my racist 3-year-old.
Welcome to Britain's Dark Ages II.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 5:09 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:For example: what has Theresa May ever done to suggest she will be a good PM?
Ummmmmm -----

Oh come on, Ohso!

She wears fabulous shoes and Roland Mouret frocks. She's AMAAAAAZING!!!!!!!!!

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 5:09 pm

Liza Van Zyl, a disability rights activist has made this statement:

‘Owen Smith needs to be challenged robustly on his position on the Work Capability Assessment and on his commitment to disabled people’s rights. I was a Labour Party activist who had no choice but to resign from the party after a very unpleasant encounter with Mr Smith. I am recounting it now because I believe it is very important that his views are robustly challenged if he stands for the Labour leadership.

https://samedifference1.com/2016/07/12/ ... rship-bid/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;