Saturday 16th & Sunday 17th July 2016

[tinyclanger2]

(sorry really will go and adjust mood now)

[TR'sGhost]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ca ... ar_twitter Cash-strapped NHS trusts are asking people to work for FREE

It's not only in the NHS.

Our council has put out its groundwork to tender. Private sector, lower wages, shortage of workers, work not being done.

I've just discovered our Arts centre which had a grant to create a knot garden in keeping with its history a few years ago, is using a club of 'enthusiastic' volunteers to help keep the gardens weeded and so on. "We couldn't keep it looking so nice without them" a council official enthused. For free of course.

And then the council will boast how well it's managing the drastically reduced budget it's been given, and Labour couldn't do half as well.

F*****g hell!

It's the "Big Society" here at last!

Also known as the "amateur people doing for free what used to be someone's job" society.

[ephemerid]

Liza Van Zyl, a disability rights activist has made this statement:

‘Owen Smith needs to be challenged robustly on his position on the Work Capability Assessment and on his commitment to disabled people’s rights. I was a Labour Party activist who had no choice but to resign from the party after a very unpleasant encounter with Mr Smith. I am recounting it now because I believe it is very important that his views are robustly challenged if he stands for the Labour leadership.

https://samedifference1.com/2016/07/12/ ... rship-bid/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There was a big kerfuffle over Ms.Van Zyl's allegations at the time. We argued about it here, in fact.

She made a lot of claims about that incident, Owen Smith, online intimidation, and the effect it all had on her that were not borne out by other people who attended the same event and who followed the ensuing online discussions.
I crossed swords with Mike Sivier over it, because I felt that Ms.Van Zyl's account of events simply didn't add up. That led to me being accused of discriminating against a person with mental health issues. Which is nonsense.

That said, Smith is not alone in having no plans to abolish the WCA. Reeves and Green made vague noises about "reforming" it, but they never actually explained how this would be done.
Labour as it stands in the PLP will not abolish the WCA. They won't change much at all, really, but they'll make it a bit nicer. They invited ideas on "Your Britain" and ideas they got - then they ignored them.

[AngryAsWell]

Yay! GB is in the Davis Cup semi-finals!

(Pumps fists, rolls eyes, points fingers, refuses to sit still - might as well be Room 101'd for a sheep as a lamb....)

AAW - lovely to see you here. Please stay!

The business about Ms.Debbonnaire sounds very bad, although Corbyn's office said that she had not been sacked although there was some "miscommunication" about her role.
It is obviously very wrong to treat someone badly at any time, let alone when they are undergoing cancer treatment; but I wonder why this has all come out now and not when it was happening last year?

As I posted yesterday, I just don't know what to believe any more. There seems to be a massive communication problem - whether that's down to the MSM (which, if LSE is correct, has a lot to answer for), Corbyn's office and spokespeople, or the people who are trying to get rid of him.

Like a lot of MP's she was "giving it a go" & trying to support him. Seems she was getting so much flack after the resignation that she decided to tackle it head on "this is why, now get off my back" kind of thing. Another Lab MP said similar things (won't meet him, can't get appointments to agree policy statement, had to go on TV without brief, then Corbyn contradicted him - if I can find the link will post it)
My point was that this is not all one sided & the PLP are not all self-serving parasites, some are hard working, caring people. There are reasons a plenty for what's happening and I'm sure it will eventually come out in the wash. It was a bit of a plea not to tar everyone with the same brush because "we" (Joe public) really don't know what was going on behind closed doors.
Thanks for welcome

[ohsocynical]

Our representatives met this week and agreed unanimously that none of the Bristol MPs who have supported this undemocratic attempt the oust Jeremy should have any support from our Branch in future.

There was a lot of anger at the meeting that the mandate of a quarter of a million labour party members who voted for Corbyn – some of them postmen and women – could be ignored by these people.

If someone wishes to stand against the leader there is a process for that – and there will be an election, which is entirely fair. We would expect Jeremy to be returned with an increased mandate.

These MPs did not bother to meet with their local parties or supporting trade unions before getting involved in this failed coup, who would have overwhelmingly opposed such action. This is such a slap in the face for Jeremy who visited Bristol several times and clearly won a lot of votes for Labour in the Mayoral election.

– ROB WOTHERSPOON, BRANCH SECRETARY

http://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/201 ... gn-office/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My bold.
London is always mentioned re Mayoral elections but he did well for Labour in Bristol too.

[ohsocynical]

Given the site it's on, use your own judgement.

Smith’s nickname when he worked as a corporate lobbyist at Pfizer was “Oily Smith” because everyone was wise to his habit of telling people what he thought they wanted to hear.

http://order-order.com/2016/07/13/241581/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[SpinningHugo]

Former prominent Corbyn supporter backs Smith

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... our-crisis" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[yahyah]

You make good points there AAW. That's one of the most frustrating things, unless you are closely involved, and none of us here are, it is hard to know who/what to believe or who to trust.

[Willow904]

Liza Van Zyl, a disability rights activist has made this statement:

‘Owen Smith needs to be challenged robustly on his position on the Work Capability Assessment and on his commitment to disabled people’s rights. I was a Labour Party activist who had no choice but to resign from the party after a very unpleasant encounter with Mr Smith. I am recounting it now because I believe it is very important that his views are robustly challenged if he stands for the Labour leadership.

https://samedifference1.com/2016/07/12/ ... rship-bid/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

To be fair, all Owen Smith seems to have done is state Labour Party Policy as it was at the time. And this article doesn't actually tell us what story was given to the paper that Owen Smith objected to. Not wanting to appear soft on welfare was one of the issues Labour struggled with under Ed and generally got wrong. Andy Burnham suffered from this when he was loyal to Harman, he was judged by her policy, not the policies he said he would advocate if in charge. I would really like to hear what Owen Smith himself proposes for welfare if he became leader, before making a judgement. I think this much is fair, isn't it?

[JonnyT1234]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... ost-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“One of my colleagues, a Royal Society fellow, had multiple job offers from Germany within days of the referendum result,” he said. “I have also heard that the US is chasing European scientists working in the UK now. Many of them will feel they are no longer welcome here after Brexit and will be tempted to leave. The government has to reassure them they are welcome in the UK.”

Excellent - tens of thousands fewer "experts" and more space for me to bring up my racist 3-year-old.
Welcome to Britain's Dark Ages II.

For anyone who doesn't know anything about him, Venki Ramakrishnan solved a 60+ year long problem that had proven intractable for virtually everyone else who had tried: the 3D structure of the bacterial ribosome at atomic resolution. This has let us understand exactly how many of the antibiotics that are used to treat infections actually work at the atomic level since a large number of them act on the ribosome to prevent the bacteria from synthesising their own proteins (which is the job of the ribosome).

In other words, some truly fundamental biochemistry with huge ramifications for everyone, particularly as antibiotic resistance is becoming ever more prevalent.

In other words, nothing important if you're Michael Gove. Trivial shit really.

PS. He's [edit: Venki not Gove] a gent too.

[yahyah]

What I am going to say is not aimed at anyone here, more a memo to myself and an observation about the way politics has gone since social media.

My (late) anti-Lib Dem obsession, and dislike of various figures in politics does sometimes reach sweary levels. I've got really riled and nasty about people voting Brexit, and seem to have terminally offended RR, whereas I thought it was obvious I was referring to right wing Brexiteers, libertarians and left wingers who thought revolution may be hastened by leaving the EU.

But...what use does hatred, and the expression of it, have ?
Owen Smith is being treated as if he just killed every kitten in the country, being painted as some sort of monster. Corbyn supporters are called anti-semitic misogynist thugs, more or less lumping them all in together. Angela Eagle's ambition and lack of coup competence has made her a figure of hate.

What good does that actually do ? Some, like Danzcuk are hard to love that's true, but a lot of good people get demonised and that's when the danger begins. Jo Cox's terrible death shows that.

In the end, the people we think are beyond the pale just disagree with us. It's all about our own egos, what we think is right. Until we can get past these outpourings of anger and hate, not sure anything fundamental will change.

[ohsocynical]

Liza Van Zyl, a disability rights activist has made this statement:

‘Owen Smith needs to be challenged robustly on his position on the Work Capability Assessment and on his commitment to disabled people’s rights. I was a Labour Party activist who had no choice but to resign from the party after a very unpleasant encounter with Mr Smith. I am recounting it now because I believe it is very important that his views are robustly challenged if he stands for the Labour leadership.

https://samedifference1.com/2016/07/12/ ... rship-bid/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

To be fair, all Owen Smith seems to have done is state Labour Party Policy as it was at the time. And this article doesn't actually tell us what story was given to the paper that Owen Smith objected to. Not wanting to appear soft on welfare was one of the issues Labour struggled with under Ed and generally got wrong. Andy Burnham suffered from this when he was loyal to Harman, he was judged by her policy, not the policies he said he would advocate if in charge. I would really like to hear what Owen Smith himself proposes for welfare if he became leader, before making a judgement. I think this much is fair, isn't it?

I suspect many of us are waiting with baited breath for just that .... I suspect it's going to be the same old, same old.

I'd like to hear why he thinks he'd make a better leader. I can't promise to believe him because I think he's a cowardly, lying sack of shit, but fairs fair.

[yahyah]

'a sack of shit' ?, a little harsh maybe ?

[ohsocynical]

Liza Van Zyl, a disability rights activist has made this statement:

‘Owen Smith needs to be challenged robustly on his position on the Work Capability Assessment and on his commitment to disabled people’s rights. I was a Labour Party activist who had no choice but to resign from the party after a very unpleasant encounter with Mr Smith. I am recounting it now because I believe it is very important that his views are robustly challenged if he stands for the Labour leadership.

https://samedifference1.com/2016/07/12/ ... rship-bid/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

To be fair, all Owen Smith seems to have done is state Labour Party Policy as it was at the time. And this article doesn't actually tell us what story was given to the paper that Owen Smith objected to. Not wanting to appear soft on welfare was one of the issues Labour struggled with under Ed and generally got wrong. Andy Burnham suffered from this when he was loyal to Harman, he was judged by her policy, not the policies he said he would advocate if in charge. I would really like to hear what Owen Smith himself proposes for welfare if he became leader, before making a judgement. I think this much is fair, isn't it?

I suspect many of us are waiting with baited breath for just that .... I suspect it's going to be the same old, same old.

I'd like to hear why he thinks he'd make a better leader. I can't promise to believe him because I think he's a cowardly, lying sack of shit, but fairs fair.

And no, it's not because I think Corbyn is the be all and end all. Right now I couldn't give a toss if King Kong was leader. It's what they've done, how they've gone about it, caused untold rifts, cocked a snook at thousands and thousands of people and are now preening in front of a biased media because they want to be leader.

And yes. I do believe they've got it stitched up.

[ohsocynical]

'a sack of shit' ?, a little harsh maybe ?

Sorry, but how about a cowardly snivelling sack of shit?

I'll take that dislike with me to the grave. Sod loving your enemies. He's not going to be loved or forgiven by me. His sort shouldn't be encouraged.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

What I am going to say is not aimed at anyone here, more a memo to myself and an observation about the way politics has gone since social media.

My (late) anti-Lib Dem obsession, and dislike of various figures in politics does sometimes reach sweary levels. I've got really riled and nasty about people voting Brexit, and seem to have terminally offended RR, whereas I thought it was obvious I was referring to right wing Brexiteers, libertarians and left wingers who thought revolution may be hastened by leaving the EU.

But...what use does hatred, and the expression of it, have ?
Owen Smith is being treated as if he just killed every kitten in the country, being painted as some sort of monster. Corbyn supporters are called anti-semitic misogynist thugs, more or less lumping them all in together. Angela Eagle's ambition and lack of coup competence has made her a figure of hate.

What good does that actually do ? Some, like Danzcuk are hard to love that's true, but a lot of good people get demonised and that's when the danger begins. Jo Cox's terrible death shows that.

In the end, the people we think are beyond the pale just disagree with us. It's all about our own egos, what we think is right. Until we can get past these outpourings of anger and hate, not sure anything fundamental will change.

Great post yahyah

[yahyah]

It won't affect him though. That's my point, harbouring those feelings just poisons our own well being.
Look at all the evidence about effects on the body.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

It won't affect him though. That's my point, harbouring those feelings just poisons our own well being.
Look at all the evidence about effects on the body.

I have said it often to my kids. The only thing I really hate is hatred.

[yahyah]

Thanks Paul. It is hard to put what I feel into words well, so am glad it resonated with you.

[ohsocynical]

When people have certain not so good traits in their character, and have openly demonstrated it, do we put even more power in their hands? Or do we say, sorry, can't take the risk because too many peoples lives depend on it?

[thatchersorphan]

Imagine what he would say if he was handed a bit of paper saying:

In every aspect of discussion or debate, if one is to be taken seriously and make an impression on others, it is important to exercise a modicum of rational principles and reasoned judgement. It is amazing, the difference in which the perception of language can have on one's point of view in a debate or discussion.

How about, 'What?'

I am pleased labour have finally recognised the importance of language and its effect on perceptions.
Very much looking forwards to the end of the scroungers and skivers rhetoric, the divisive 'hard-working families' rhetoric, calling British migrants 'migrants' instead of ex-pats and the end of cheap stunts to appeal to ukippers like the immigration mug.

What, you just meant no swearing? Or eye-rolling, tutting or being angry? Seriously WTAF

[Maeght]

To be fair, all Owen Smith seems to have done is state Labour Party Policy as it was at the time. And this article doesn't actually tell us what story was given to the paper that Owen Smith objected to. Not wanting to appear soft on welfare was one of the issues Labour struggled with under Ed and generally got wrong. Andy Burnham suffered from this when he was loyal to Harman, he was judged by her policy, not the policies he said he would advocate if in charge. I would really like to hear what Owen Smith himself proposes for welfare if he became leader, before making a judgement. I think this much is fair, isn't it?

I suspect many of us are waiting with baited breath for just that .... I suspect it's going to be the same old, same old.

I'd like to hear why he thinks he'd make a better leader. I can't promise to believe him because I think he's a cowardly, lying sack of shit, but fairs fair.

And no, it's not because I think Corbyn is the be all and end all. Right now I couldn't give a toss if King Kong was leader. It's what they've done, how they've gone about it, caused untold rifts, cocked a snook at thousands and thousands of people and are now preening in front of a biased media because they want to be leader.

And yes. I do believe they've got it stitched up.

Couldn't agree more.

[ohsocynical]

Liza Van Zyl, a disability rights activist has made this statement:

‘Owen Smith needs to be challenged robustly on his position on the Work Capability Assessment and on his commitment to disabled people’s rights. I was a Labour Party activist who had no choice but to resign from the party after a very unpleasant encounter with Mr Smith. I am recounting it now because I believe it is very important that his views are robustly challenged if he stands for the Labour leadership.

https://samedifference1.com/2016/07/12/ ... rship-bid/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

To be fair, all Owen Smith seems to have done is state Labour Party Policy as it was at the time. And this article doesn't actually tell us what story was given to the paper that Owen Smith objected to. Not wanting to appear soft on welfare was one of the issues Labour struggled with under Ed and generally got wrong. Andy Burnham suffered from this when he was loyal to Harman, he was judged by her policy, not the policies he said he would advocate if in charge. I would really like to hear what Owen Smith himself proposes for welfare if he became leader, before making a judgement. I think this much is fair, isn't it?

Is it though? Someone who changes his views according to what he feels other people want to hear is not someone I would trust. I agree Burnham got a hard time over his support for Harman's colossal screw up, but it was pretty obvious that Labour supporters wanted more courage, and only Corbyn showed it.

Basically he's a typical politician and the reason why so many people felt disenfranchised.

[ephemerid]

Yay! GB is in the Davis Cup semi-finals!

(Pumps fists, rolls eyes, points fingers, refuses to sit still - might as well be Room 101'd for a sheep as a lamb....)

AAW - lovely to see you here. Please stay!

The business about Ms.Debbonnaire sounds very bad, although Corbyn's office said that she had not been sacked although there was some "miscommunication" about her role.
It is obviously very wrong to treat someone badly at any time, let alone when they are undergoing cancer treatment; but I wonder why this has all come out now and not when it was happening last year?

As I posted yesterday, I just don't know what to believe any more. There seems to be a massive communication problem - whether that's down to the MSM (which, if LSE is correct, has a lot to answer for), Corbyn's office and spokespeople, or the people who are trying to get rid of him.

Like a lot of MP's she was "giving it a go" & trying to support him. Seems she was getting so much flack after the resignation that she decided to tackle it head on "this is why, now get off my back" kind of thing. Another Lab MP said similar things (won't meet him, can't get appointments to agree policy statement, had to go on TV without brief, then Corbyn contradicted him - if I can find the link will post it)
My point was that this is not all one sided & the PLP are not all self-serving parasites, some are hard working, caring people. There are reasons a plenty for what's happening and I'm sure it will eventually come out in the wash. It was a bit of a plea not to tar everyone with the same brush because "we" (Joe public) really don't know what was going on behind closed doors.
Thanks for welcome

You're quite right - not all MPs who do not support their leader are self-serving parasites. Some are, though.

You're also right to say that we don't know what goes on behind closed doors. That, in itself, is a problem.

It's a massive problem, IMHO. There are so many lies and so much spin it's impossible to know the truth about anything any more.

[tinyclanger2]

tsk

[ohsocynical]

It won't affect him though. That's my point, harbouring those feelings just poisons our own well being.
Look at all the evidence about effects on the body.

I don't hate him, he's nothing. Just a symbol of how sick our society has become. But I unreservedly hate what he is. I hate that he knows exactly what he's doing.

I don't think he's fit to be in a position of power over the disabled, hungry, homeless, our children's future.

I think he's such an apology of a human being he shouldn't be fawned over and given a chance to tell me what to do.

[Willow904]

Liza Van Zyl, a disability rights activist has made this statement:

‘Owen Smith needs to be challenged robustly on his position on the Work Capability Assessment and on his commitment to disabled people’s rights. I was a Labour Party activist who had no choice but to resign from the party after a very unpleasant encounter with Mr Smith. I am recounting it now because I believe it is very important that his views are robustly challenged if he stands for the Labour leadership.

https://samedifference1.com/2016/07/12/ ... rship-bid/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

To be fair, all Owen Smith seems to have done is state Labour Party Policy as it was at the time. And this article doesn't actually tell us what story was given to the paper that Owen Smith objected to. Not wanting to appear soft on welfare was one of the issues Labour struggled with under Ed and generally got wrong. Andy Burnham suffered from this when he was loyal to Harman, he was judged by her policy, not the policies he said he would advocate if in charge. I would really like to hear what Owen Smith himself proposes for welfare if he became leader, before making a judgement. I think this much is fair, isn't it?

Is it though? Someone who changes his views according to what he feels other people want to hear is not someone I would trust. I agree Burnham got a hard time over his support for Harman's colossal screw up, but it was pretty obvious that Labour supporters wanted more courage, and only Corbyn showed it.

Corbyn was the only backbencher. As such he was able to rebel without consequences. The others could hardly rebel as frontbenchers and then expect to be able to put together a front bench team. A quandary Corbyn has never faced. Burnham actually changed Harman's policy, he achieved compromise and also outlined what he would do as leader. He was pragmatic, a quality I value. As for Owen Smith, I barely know anything about him. I'm not especially aware he has changed his views to suit what people want to hear. Sticking to the party line in the run-up to an election doesn't sound so terrible to me, so I'm going to reserve judgement for now.

[thatchersorphan]

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Does Labour support the benefits cap? - Newsnight Owen Smith 2 days after Corbyn was elected

Éoin ‏@LabourEoin 3h3 hours ago Owen Smith "I am going to argue today that austerity is right". " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Momentum ‏@PeoplesMomentum 27m27 minutes ago
“[Abuse and entryism are] not about Momentum... We need to welcome the involvement of people in politics." " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Angela Eagle on BBC

[ohsocynical]

There are thousands if not millions of people out there who are decent human beings ... So why do we blindly elect the unworthy in so many instances?

Finally we seemed to be waking up. We won't get too many more chances.

[ohsocynical]

Imagine what he would say if he was handed a bit of paper saying:

In every aspect of discussion or debate, if one is to be taken seriously and make an impression on others, it is important to exercise a modicum of rational principles and reasoned judgement. It is amazing, the difference in which the perception of language can have on one's point of view in a debate or discussion.

How about, 'What?'

I am pleased labour have finally recognised the importance of language and its effect on perceptions.
Very much looking forwards to the end of the scroungers and skivers rhetoric, the divisive 'hard-working families' rhetoric, calling British migrants 'migrants' instead of ex-pats and the end of cheap stunts to appeal to ukippers like the immigration mug.

What, you just meant no swearing? Or eye-rolling, tutting or being angry? Seriously WTAF

Do you know what rubbed salt into the wounds with some of my local members? We were due a Constituency meeting to discuss whether to support Corbyn or not, and of course now it's banned. But someone had evidently asked TORIES to come to the meeting and act as independent chucker-outers if anyone got a bit stroppy.

[ohsocynical]

Think I may have posted this link a week a few days ago, but too tired to check...Worth a second read just to jog our memories though, because the media's brainwashing is beginning to bite..

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives ... wen-smith/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[mbc1955]

There are thousands if not millions of people out there who are decent human beings ... So why do we blindly elect the unworthy in so many instances?

Finally we seemed to be waking up. We won't get too many more chances.

Because only the unworthy are unscrupulous enough to do whatever is required to thrust themselves in front of the public.

Because only the unworthy are prepared to be treacherous in power to ensure the sustaining of the powerful.

Because only the unworthy will suit the demands of the press barons and their unworthy tokens of power, their editors.

[ephemerid]

I don't know whether say thank you to Lovely Paul and whoever asked for a comment to be removed or not!

Sometimes I think it's better to leave the comment there as it demonstrates the mindset of the person who posted it.
That's why I very rarely report people on CIF and have never reported anyone here (not that we get vile comments often).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Willow - re. Smith and "welfare".

He has expressed the view on more than one occasion that austerity is OK and that he agrees with the benefit cap.
Apparently he did both today on Marr (which I don't watch any more as I fear for my telly).

I could only agree with a benefit cap if it was set by area, and commensurate with the rents charged in that area.
As it would b almost impossible to administer, it's pointless.

What we know works is a system of basic rates of benefits with specialist top-ups; and housing benefit set at levels which reflect local rents.
We had one of those but it started being broken under New Labour and got smashed to bit by the Tories.

I think, judging from the many and various articles and comments in all sorts of places, that Smith hasn't really got a USP.
I'm not sure what he actually stands for. His history is not all that inspiring, though he s obviously able.

[utopiandreams]

... There are so many lies and so much spin it's impossible to know the truth about anything any more.

Quite, ephe, which reminds me of a post I made agreeing with someone at the G. I can't remember who or even what they said about MPs, censure for something or other. Anyway I want politicians who lie in their professional capacity in or out of the House to be reprimanded with repeat offenders barred from office. It's the only way to have truly representative democracy.

Have I ever said I dream a lot?

[Willow904]

Is it though? Someone who changes his views according to what he feels other people want to hear is not someone I would trust. I agree Burnham got a hard time over his support for Harman's colossal screw up, but it was pretty obvious that Labour supporters wanted more courage, and only Corbyn showed it.

Corbyn was the only backbencher. As such he was able to rebel without consequences. The others could hardly rebel as frontbenchers and then expect to be able to put together a front bench team. A quandary Corbyn has never faced. Burnham actually changed Harman's policy, he achieved compromise and also outlined what he would do as leader. He was pragmatic, a quality I value. As for Owen Smith, I barely know anything about him. I'm not especially aware he has changed his views to suit what people want to hear. Sticking to the party line in the run-up to an election doesn't sound so terrible to me, so I'm going to reserve judgement for now.

I heard these arguments at the time, and the point is that so did the party membership, which roundly rejected them. Burnham's compromise wasn't good enough for the majority. Fair play to him for trying, but it wasn't what most people wanted. Any of the three shadow cabinet candidates were free to resign over it if it was that important

As there were no Tory rebels, it wasn't that important, was it? I'm just pointing out the inconsistency of praising Burnham's loyalty to Corbyn but condemning his loyalty to Harman. I'm just pointing out that loyalty is sometimes considered admirable, that sticking to the party line isn't a crime. But then, I also admired and liked Ed Miliband, and that probably makes me a right winger in some people's eyes, who can't be trusted.

[TobyLatimer]

That told him.

CnliWF_XEAA-OGm.jpg (27.67 KiB) Viewed 7656 times

[ohsocynical]

Ed Miliband. The best PM we never had.

[AngryAsWell]

Owen Smith - Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owen_Smith_(politician" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

Economic issues[edit]
Smith opposes austerity and has been strongly critical of George Osborne's public spending cuts.[6] In May 2010, he apologised for an online article in which he compared the coalition government's austerity programme to domestic violence.[19] As Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary, Smith attacked the government's welfare reforms, calling the bedroom tax "unlawful and discriminatory".[20]

In launching his bid to become Labour leader in July 2016, he proposed that £200 billion be invested to "rebuild Britain". He also suggested that income tax rates on the highest paid should be increased, with a top rate of 50%, claiming that recent party policy had been "too timid".[21]

European Union[edit]
Smith supported the campaign for Britain to remain in the European Union, in the referendum on Britain's membership in June 2016.[22] On 13 July 2016, following the vote to leave the EU, three weeks prior, he pledged that he would offer a further referendum on the final 'Brexit' deal drawn up by the new Prime Minister, were he to be elected Labour leader.[23] He also said: "I don't think we should accept we're on a definite path out. I think we need to make sure people are satisfied".[21]

Nuclear disarmament[edit]
When interviewed on the Today programme in July 2016, Smith revealed that he used to be a member of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament and "fundamentally wants the world to be without nuclear bombs."[24] He has described himself as being a "sceptic" of the Trident nuclear programme and as favouring a multilateralist approach to nuclear disarmament (a position he noted as being Bevanite).[25] In the weeks before the 2015 general election, he told a hustings audience that he regretted Ed Miliband's policy to renew Trident, saying: "would but we could get rid of it, but I fear that we can’t."[26] In 2016, he stated that he would vote to renew Trident, saying: "I want a world without nuclear weapons altogether, but I don't think we hasten that by divesting."[21]

Syrian airstrikes[edit]
In December 2015, Smith sided with the Labour leadership by opposing the government's plans for military intervention in the Syrian civil war.[27]

[ohsocynical]

Ray woolford ‏@Raywoolford 3m3 minutes ago

Very surprised that #Lewisham MP Heidi Alexandra has chosen Owen Smith the man who supports NHS privatisation b4 Eagle

[PaulfromYorkshire]

I don't know whether say thank you to Lovely Paul and whoever asked for a comment to be removed or not!

Sometimes I think it's better to leave the comment there as it demonstrates the mindset of the person who posted it.
That's why I very rarely report people on CIF and have never reported anyone here (not that we get vile comments often).

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Willow - re. Smith and "welfare".

He has expressed the view on more than one occasion that austerity is OK and that he agrees with the benefit cap.
Apparently he did both today on Marr (which I don't watch any more as I fear for my telly).

I could only agree with a benefit cap if it was set by area, and commensurate with the rents charged in that area.
As it would b almost impossible to administer, it's pointless.

What we know works is a system of basic rates of benefits with specialist top-ups; and housing benefit set at levels which reflect local rents.
We had one of those but it started being broken under New Labour and got smashed to bit by the Tories.

I think, judging from the many and various articles and comments in all sorts of places, that Smith hasn't really got a USP.
I'm not sure what he actually stands for. His history is not all that inspiring, though he s obviously able.

Hi Ephemerid

I broadly agree with your thoughts on Hugo's comment. I am always mindful of the discussions we had around these issues way back and I guess we do need to remember we don't know who is browsing this public forum.

If one of us finds something offensive, it's a fair bet it could offend others, who could be anywhere in the world.

Do let's discuss though. Thanks

[ohsocynical]

Here we go, here we go, here we go -----

Owen Smith @OwenSmith_MP
@DylanStrain @JohnMannMP

I had no intention of running 6 months or even 6 weeks ago. John should name whoever he claims approached him.

John MannVerified account
‏@JohnMannMP John Mann Retweeted Owen Smith
Claims approached him eh? So Owen Smith is calling me a liar. I will have to publish more details then. John Mann added,

[Willow904]

Ray woolford ‏@Raywoolford 3m3 minutes ago

Very surprised that #Lewisham MP Heidi Alexandra has chosen Owen Smith the man who supports NHS privatisation b4 Eagle

On Owen Smith's voting record he voted to restrict provision of services to private patients by the NHS and against reforming the NHS so GPs buy services on behalf of their patients ( which essentially meant the privatisation of commissioning I believe ). More generally he does seem more interested in outcomes, than being wedded to any particular philosophy, but then so am I. I have nothing against the German universal health system, for instance, I think it's very good, but it's not what we'd get here if the Tories dismantled the NHS, which could never improve outcomes and save money as they claim, which is why I defend the NHS. I think the NHS is brilliant for what we pay and no other system is so much better to make the upheaval of replacing it worth it. So for me the jury on Owen Smith remains out. I'm not prepared to take Guido Fawkes hatchet job at face value, but I haven't seen enough of Smith to truly make up my own mind.

[ohsocynical]

And I currently wouldn't trust Wikipedia pages not to have been massaged by the campaigns of those running.

I try hard never to go there for biographical details. There's been far too much tampering.

[SpinningHugo]

I object to that post being removed. It gives the impression that it was offensive, which on no reasonable reading could it be. It referred to the fact that the deselections would be applied to the Blairites first but wouldn't stop there.

Ephemerid misread it, deliberately or not, and clearly mistook who the "they" were. I try not to respond to his posts as he gets so worked up, and had thought his reading so obviosly daft that it didn't matter anyway.

Now the board gives the impression that I have said some appallingly offensive thing, which is ridiculous.

I don't mind being told to "fuck off" or that I am a "troll" or that I don't make arguments. I am used to that. I am here more to understand what seems inexplicable to me I know there are few minds to change.

I do mind moderators giving the impression that I have said something worthy of moderation when I have not.

[ohsocynical]

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Éoin ‏@LabourEoin 11h11 hours ago
ComRes conducted polling data on who *Labour Voters* found more electable... Eagle, Smith or Corbyn... Here you go:

[ohsocynical]

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[AngryAsWell]

And I currently wouldn't trust Wikipedia pages not to have been massaged by the campaigns of those running.

I try hard never to go there for biographical details. There's been far too much tampering.

I do agree Wiki is not very reliable, but it's a resource I use because the referenced links at the bottom of the page can make a contribution in verifying (or otherwise) of the actual entry.

[ohsocynical]

Paul Flynn ‏@PaulFlynnMP 6h6 hours ago

Danger that present political tumult will bury Chilcot findings. No apology from Parliament. No pursuit of the guilty. No lessons learned

[AngryAsWell]

I'm (to my shame) not well up on Irish history. Is there any significance to this from DH?

(((Dan Hodges))) ‏@DPJHodges 10h10 hours ago
Corbyn supporters are now tweeting pictures of dead IRA men to @ConorMcGinn and telling him he's not welcome in South Armagh.

[ohsocynical]

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