Wednesday 31 August 2016

[SpinningHugo]

YouGov poll gives Corbyn huge lead over Smith

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/c ... torate.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yougov have a good record at predicting these

Of party members that joined before last year's contest, Smith leads 68-32. Of those that joined after, Corbyn leads 86-14.

Presumably former would be larger if some of the 4.5% (like me) hadn't left.

The transformation of the Labour party by those once thought fringe figures is one of the most brilliant success stories of modern politics.

Update: 60% of pre-2015 members intend to remain in the party after Corbyn victory, 28% leave. So, in addition to those excluded by the NEC/Court of Appeal, the change will only become even more pronounced.

The immediate significance of all this is what do the MPs do next? If Smith could get over 40%, then it would be worth trying again next year. But on these figures the party just isn't the same as it was in May 2015. Split?

[yahyah]

Existing members [those who joined before the 2015 general election] :
Owen Smith 68%, Corbyn 32%.

Not sure what the 2015 result was for long standing party members.
Have had a quick search but couldn't spot it.

[StephenDolan]

Some interesting figures when drilled down into. The most surprising for me is the Corbyn is doing Well / Badly for those that voted Leave (74/24).

One for the pollster bods. Is there a reason why you'd ask the characteristics you associate with Corbyn /Smith question in a different order for each of them?

[yahyah]

The full set of questions and results are here:

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/c ... torate.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

YouGov have also shown responses of 2015 Labour voters, and 'GB adults', which makes for depressing reading.

[yahyah]

Stephen @

Isn't it because YouGov have presented the results of the personal characteristics in the order of highest percentage of the results, rather than that the list was offered to respondents in a different order for each candidate ?

That's the way it appears if you check out the percentages for each trait.

[StephenDolan]

Stephen @

Isn't it because YouGov have presented the results of the personal characteristics in the order of highest percentage of the results, rather than that the list was offered to respondents in a different order for each candidate ?

That's the way it appears if you check out the percentages for each trait.

Ah, thanks for that yahyah, coffee hasn't been drunk yet, that makes sense.

[StephenDolan]

I wonder how much churn there is within a party's membership that's previous member, left or lapsed, returned? Not so much in response to high profile issues (Trident, Iraq, leadership change, GE results etc etc) but in general.

[citizenJA]

-snip-

Split?

Never!


Good-morning, everyone.

[danesclose]

Morning all.
Apologies for raking over old ground, but shouldn't this have been considered before the referendum?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... -scenarios" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Edited to add, there's a 180 page "briefing note" in PDF format which can be accessed from the above link giving the implications of Brexit on government departments.

[SpinningHugo]

Reading Prof Glenn O'Hara on twitter (who I like) he sets out 4 options for MPs given this poll.

1. Go quiet and do loads of constituency work. Rewarding, interesting - but close-to-zero prospect of power. Lots of MPs doing that now.

2. Get with the programme, however ludicrous. Given all that's now been said, less than credible, might still be shuffled out by members in any event.

3. Some form of split either in Parliament or in toto. Given the lack of credible leaders, emotional ties, looks doubtful/difficult. (I think this will now happen in some form, MPs have proven less spineless than I thought they were).

4. Get a more influential + higher-paid outside politics, a la James Purnell, where no-one calls you a traitor.

Suspect like him that many will go for 4, so we'll have a smaller and quite different PLP in 10 years time. Possible to pursue both 3 and 4 I'd have thought?

[RogerOThornhill]

Morning all.

In other news...and yes, there is other news despite being steered into discussing the leadership election again. Just seen this in the printed edition.

US starts to turn its back on private prisons

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... te-prisons

The country that locks up the most people has been reassessing its decades-long surge in prisoner numbers, with initiatives ranging from presidential pledges on solitary confinement to cutting the number of young people behind bars. This month, the reform agenda took yet another turn with a vow by the Department of Justice (DoJ) in Washington to phase out privately run prisons.

It was a bold step for the US where private prisons are big business. But it’s also one that won’t go unnoticed by the current Tory administration in Britain, especially with a new minister for justice recently in place and the configuration of the prison estate – including the building of new jails and who runs them – set to be high profile.

In a memo to the Federal Bureau of Prisons on 18 August the deputy attorney general, Sally Yates, outlined the US government’s intention to reduce and “ultimately” end the “use of privately operated prisons” at a federal level. The move, widely welcomed by reformers, and which caused an immediate slump in the share value of the largest for-profit prison firms in the country, came close on the heels of a damning report which concluded that conditions in privately run facilities were far less safe than those in publicly run prisons.

Excellent. Let's see this happen in the UK and get private providers away from the implementation of the justice system altogether.

[RogerOThornhill]

And something everybody knew but the DfE declined to admit...

Leaked report reveals small schools needed extra cash for free meals – yet government still ended it

http://schoolsweek.co.uk/leaked-report- ... -ended-it/

Thousands of small schools are struggling to meet the cost of providing free school meals, according to a leaked government report previously kept hidden by the Department for Education.

And a decision taken earlier this year to end an annual £2,300 subsidy to small infant schools will have exacerbated the problem even further.

Infant schools are currently given £2.30 for each free meal they provide – a figure that is supposed to reflect the “average” cost of serving a lunch – but economies of scale mean small schools pupils are struggling to supply food for this amount.

Schools Week revealed in January how the “small schools taskforce” – first set up in 2014 – had reported to the government on their findings, but the DfE refused to release the material at the time, stating that it did not hold a “final draft” of the report.

A leaked version of the report, seen by Schools Week, and printed with the publication date of “May 2015”, states that an ongoing small schools subsidy was required for schools serving less than 100 meals a day.

Without extra funding, the taskforce said schools would face annual losses of just under £4,000. The scrapping of the small schools grant could nudge that shortfall closer to £6,500 per school.

Ironically the Tories could have made political capital out of this if they'd abandoned the policy by blaming Clegg into bouncing the Coalition into it.

Terrible policy with no thought as to the consequences.

[danesclose]

Reading Prof Glenn O'Hara on twitter (who I like) he sets out 4 options for MPs given this poll.

1. Go quiet and do loads of constituency work. Rewarding, interesting - but close-to-zero prospect of power. Lots of MPs doing that now.

2. Get with the programme, however ludicrous. Given all that's now been said, less than credible, might still be shuffled out by members in any event.

3. Some form of split either in Parliament or in toto. Given the lack of credible leaders, emotional ties, looks doubtful/difficult. (I think this will now happen in some form, MPs have proven less spineless than I thought they were).

4. Get a more influential + higher-paid outside politics, a la James Purnell, where no-one calls you a traitor.

Suspect like him that many will go for 4, so we'll have a smaller and quite different PLP in 10 years time. Possible to pursue both 3 and 4 I'd have thought?

MPs will only go for option 4 if there's an opportunity of big money & personal kudos. Purnell got a job at the BBC as Director of Strategy (which many would argue was a meaningless "W12A" style post) with a reported salary of £300k p.a. thus fulfilling both requirements.

[StephenDolan]

Reading Prof Glenn O'Hara on twitter (who I like) he sets out 4 options for MPs given this poll.

1. Go quiet and do loads of constituency work. Rewarding, interesting - but close-to-zero prospect of power. Lots of MPs doing that now.

2. Get with the programme, however ludicrous. Given all that's now been said, less than credible, might still be shuffled out by members in any event.

3. Some form of split either in Parliament or in toto. Given the lack of credible leaders, emotional ties, looks doubtful/difficult. (I think this will now happen in some form, MPs have proven less spineless than I thought they were).

4. Get a more influential + higher-paid outside politics, a la James Purnell, where no-one calls you a traitor.

Suspect like him that many will go for 4, so we'll have a smaller and quite different PLP in 10 years time. Possible to pursue both 3 and 4 I'd have thought?

MPs will only go for option 4 if there's an opportunity of big money & personal kudos. Purnell got a job at the BBC as Director of Strategy (which many would argue was a meaningless "W12A" style post) with a reported salary of £300k p.a. thus fulfilling both requirements.

Where’s option 5. Brief constantly and aim to destabilise,hoping that May will call a GE.

[citizenJA]

Some interesting figures when drilled down into. The most surprising for me is the Corbyn is doing Well / Badly for those that voted Leave (74/24).

One for the pollster bods. Is there a reason why you'd ask the characteristics you associate with Corbyn /Smith question in a different order for each of them?

(my bold)

No. Polling companies may use different methods carrying out their investigations but unless question order about candidate(s) was
the study justifying a data collection instrument reflecting that I'd receive a fail grade in Social Research 1A. I frown heavily upon
some pollsters for their practices and generally treat those publications with mild contempt.

[RogerOThornhill]

Wasn't this said on here?

[RogerOThornhill]

Several important points raised by Jo Maugham about the Apple tax affair.

Other people’s money: the Apple story

https://waitingfortax.com/2016/08/31/ot ... ple-story/

But if you look beyond those parochial concerns you’ll see that what Ireland has been doing is giving a subsidy to Apple’s shareholders with other people’s money – and keeping a touch for itself.

The subsidy to the shareholders comes in the form of higher post-tax returns than they would otherwise have enjoyed. As the Commission Press Release noted:

In fact, the tax treatment in Ireland enabled Apple to avoid taxation on almost all profits generated by sales of Apple products in the entire EU Single Market.

The ‘other people’s money’ is the taxes that would have been paid elsewhere in the single market – including in the UK – and in the US too if Ireland hadn’t issued the rulings the subject of the complaint.

Quite. And this is what makes it so important. Apple and other countries playing countries off against each other who, collectively, need to stand up and declare that the time when this could happen are over.

Amazing to think that CT rates in the late 70s and early 80s in the UK were 52%. Corporations really will never be happy with whatever rate is set, and all that happens is that they end up with piles of cash that they don't know what to do with.

The other point...

Finally, the EU dimension.

If you agree with the proposition that it’s a good thing for big multinational companies to pay tax on their profits then you should be interested in how this result came about.

It wasn’t Ireland, or Germany, or France, or the UK that delivered it. It was the European Commission. The reality is that the smaller you are, the more difficult it is for you to generate tax receipts. You’re less important a market. And you’re less able to absorb the risks attached to widening your tax base or increasing your tax rates. Or to face down threats of retaliation. On the other hand, the bigger the market you are, the greater the heft you have.

As I argued before the referendum, writing then about State Aid rules, leaving weakens our bargaining position on tax matters. It puts us on the road to tax haven UK. And if you want an NHS, or free education, or decent pensions, or a social safety net, that’s not a good thing.

Correct.

[SpinningHugo]

I think the conclusion I'd draw is that taxing corporate profits is a waste of time and we should stop it. Concentrate instead on taxing the wealth and income of the individuals who own the corporations, and the transactions from which these profits are made. Trying to tax corporations themselves is too easy to avoid and creates market imbalances (bigger firms having an advantage over New entrants)

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Wasn't this said on here?

He should really have said "not performing worse than". The figures are surely the same within the error of the poll.

Interestingly, I've found Eaton's tone recently to be less anti-Corbyn than usual. Why would that be?

[AnatolyKasparov]

Existing members [those who joined before the 2015 general election] :
Owen Smith 68%, Corbyn 32%.

Not sure what the 2015 result was for long standing party members.
Have had a quick search but couldn't spot it.

My personal hunch (based on anecdotal evidence admittedly) is that the divide between pre and post 2015 GE members isn't quite as stark as YouGov makes out, though its overall figure is in the right ballpark (I have thought it is likely, barring something unexpected, to be about 60-40 to JC for a while now)

My only real surprise is that some people were surprised by this poll.

[RogerOThornhill]

I think the conclusion I'd draw is that taxing corporate profits is a waste of time and we should stop it. Concentrate instead on taxing the wealth and income of the individuals who own the corporations, and the transactions from which these profits are made. Trying to tax corporations themselves is too easy to avoid and creates market imbalances (bigger firms having an advantage over New entrants)

If it was as simple as that it would have been done by now. A switch from taxing companies to individuals would need global agreement otherwise companies would simply find another way of rewarding shareholders.

It actually needs countries not playing silly buggers and trying to score points off others - benefits no-one on the long run.

Transaction tax? Explain how that would work please.

[gilsey]

Transaction tax? Explain how that would work please.

It would work like VAT, ie it would be passed on to the ultimate consumer. Capitalist's dream.

[AnatolyKasparov]

The full set of questions and results are here:

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/c ... torate.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

YouGov have also shown responses of 2015 Labour voters, and 'GB adults', which makes for depressing reading.

Well, is that surprising? Why would anybody think particularly well of the Labour party at the minute??

Arguably the surprising thing is that we can still get the support that we do.

[SpinningHugo]

. A switch from taxing companies to individuals would need global agreement otherwise companies would simply find another way of rewarding shareholders.

-What other ways of rewarding shareholders are there or could there be other than dividends/capital value increase on shareholdings? With small companies you can give them a job, but that is not the kind of company we are talking about.

I think it *is* happening globally, and I don't see why it needs international agreement. The decline in UK corporation tax rates is reflected in other countries too.

Transaction taxes: VAT.

We should stop treating corporations as if they were people. Tax the people (and their assets).

[SpinningHugo]

The full set of questions and results are here:

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/c ... torate.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

YouGov have also shown responses of 2015 Labour voters, and 'GB adults', which makes for depressing reading.

Well, is that surprising? Why would anybody think particularly well of the Labour party at the minute??

Arguably the surprising thing is that we can still get the support that we do.

No viable alternative south of the border. In Scotland Labour is more or less finished I'd guess as politics hardens into Nationalist SNP and Unionist Tories.

Labour is very very lucky that the Lib Dems are so utterly useless. If they were being led by someone competent (or indeed with an profile at all) things might be stickier.

As it is, if that digital manifesto launch (which was a chaotic disaster) is an indication of what will happen in an election campaign, I'd expect a Labour vote of around 24%. That is about 150 seats.

Things should pick up as the economy slows, May makes mistakes, and the PLP decides what to do next. I thought they'd try again next year if Smith managed to get your 40% prediction. But as it now looks like he won't hit that, I wonder what they'll do.

[SpinningHugo]

1. why is Smith suggesting a 2nd Scottish referendum?

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/po ... d-scottish" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

2. I think Ed Balls was lucky to lose his seat in retrospect. You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you might just find

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/gal ... CMP=twt_gu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

3. How do you "stay in by the back door"? May's spoken English is terrible. Where did she go to school?

[StephenDolan]

The full set of questions and results are here:

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/c ... torate.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

YouGov have also shown responses of 2015 Labour voters, and 'GB adults', which makes for depressing reading.

Well, is that surprising? Why would anybody think particularly well of the Labour party at the minute??

Arguably the surprising thing is that we can still get the support that we do.

No viable alternative south of the border. In Scotland Labour is more or less finished I'd guess as politics hardens into Nationalist SNP and Unionist Tories.

Labour is very very lucky that the Lib Dems are so utterly useless. If they were being led by someone competent (or indeed with an profile at all) things might be stickier.

As it is, if that digital manifesto launch (which was a chaotic disaster) is an indication of what will happen in an election campaign, I'd expect a Labour vote of around 24%. That is about 150 seats.

Things should pick up as the economy slows, May makes mistakes, and the PLP decides what to do next. I thought they'd try again next year if Smith managed to get your 40% prediction. But as it now looks like he won't hit that, I wonder what they'll do.

Ah but don't forget that next year, the arbitrary cut off wouldn't exclude the same 130k. I don't think McNichol has the chutzpah to make it the same cutoff date again!

[RogerOThornhill]

. A switch from taxing companies to individuals would need global agreement otherwise companies would simply find another way of rewarding shareholders.

-What other ways of rewarding shareholders are there or could there be other than dividends/capital value increase on shareholdings? With small companies you can give them a job, but that is not the kind of company we are talking about.

I think it *is* happening globally, and I don't see why it needs international agreement. The decline in UK corporation tax rates is reflected in other countries too.

Transaction taxes: VAT.

We should stop treating corporations as if they were people. Tax the people (and their assets).

1. Shareholdings can be put into trust or taken offshore.
2. VAT hits individuals not companies and is highly regressive.
3. This is happening globally? So which countries are increasing income tax rates to take into account falling CT rates?

All we seem to have been doing is driving CT rates down while reducing income tax rates at the same time.

[SpinningHugo]

Would you rather be Ed Balls or Dan Jarvis?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/da ... ar_twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

StephenDolan

-On the exclusions, you are absolutely right that next year the numbers will be even more in Corbyn's favour. I'd expect the party's transformation to accelerate over the coming year. It isn't McNichol's decision though (and he'll be gone very soon I'd expect).

[SpinningHugo]

. A switch from taxing companies to individuals would need global agreement otherwise companies would simply find another way of rewarding shareholders.

-What other ways of rewarding shareholders are there or could there be other than dividends/capital value increase on shareholdings? With small companies you can give them a job, but that is not the kind of company we are talking about.

I think it *is* happening globally, and I don't see why it needs international agreement. The decline in UK corporation tax rates is reflected in other countries too.

Transaction taxes: VAT.

We should stop treating corporations as if they were people. Tax the people (and their assets).

1. Shareholdings can be put into trust or taken offshore.
2. VAT hits individuals not companies and is highly regressive.
3. This is happening globally? So which countries are increasing income tax rates to take into account falling CT rates?

All we seem to have been doing is driving CT rates down while reducing income tax rates at the same time.

You can take assets offshore I agree. But, unless you want to just leave it there forever, eventually you'll need to spend it on something. Income you can't receive and assets you cannot use not being much use to you.

I agree of course that VAT is regressive. The entire structure needs looking at again.

"To take into account". None I know of but the shift away from corporation tax to tax falling on individuals is global, and going on for decades no? You're our tax expert. Where in the world is the movement the other way?

[Willow904]

SH is very certain in their predictions, which I wonder at given there are so many unknowns. We've seen these waves of left-wing enthusiasm before, with the Libdems and with the Greens. Indeed, the Green surge in Bristol West barely lasted a couple of years before morphing into a surge for Corbyn, with turbulent results at a CLP meeting as previously discussed. There have been conversations about whether these people who have recently voted for other parties are "entryists" but less about whether they are loyalists. Will they stick around? One woman on Twitter complaining about being refused as a registered supporter happily admitted she only left the SNP because she moved to Cornwall and would consider voting for Plaid or the Greens. Do other currently avid Corbyn supporters have similar fluctuating loyalties and if so, how likely are they to renew their memberships after the first year? We just don't know, do we? Ben from Twitter, whose rejection letter was posted yesterday, had joined the Greens in 2015. Would he have stuck with Labour any longer if he'd successfully joined? The data from the Yougov poll suggests a higher proportion of non-Corbyn supporters will stick with Labour even if they don't get the leader they want. Is Corbynism a transformation of the party or a blip? I'm damned if I know and wonder how SH can be so sure in their predictions. The political landscape is very fluid at the moment, with tensions over Brexit likely to cut Theresa May's honeymoon as PM rather short. Anything could happen or very little and 2020 remains a long way away.

[RogerOThornhill]

You can take assets offshore I agree. But, unless you want to just leave it there forever, eventually you'll need to spend it on something. Income you can't receive and assets you cannot use not being much use to you.

I agree of course that VAT is regressive. The entire structure needs looking at again.

"To take into account". None I know of but the shift away from corporation tax to tax falling on individuals is global, and going on for decades no? You're our tax expert. Where in the world is the movement the other way?

Just so you appreciate the scale of the impact you're talking about here - projected CT receipts this year are £44bn.

If you really think that the UK can simply abolish CT and raise the same through taxing individuals then I suggest you apply to the Office of Tax Simplification as I'm sure they'd appreciate your knowledge and ideas..

[SpinningHugo]

You can take assets offshore I agree. But, unless you want to just leave it there forever, eventually you'll need to spend it on something. Income you can't receive and assets you cannot use not being much use to you.

I agree of course that VAT is regressive. The entire structure needs looking at again.

"To take into account". None I know of but the shift away from corporation tax to tax falling on individuals is global, and going on for decades no? You're our tax expert. Where in the world is the movement the other way?

Just so you appreciate the scale of the impact you're talking about here - projected CT receipts this year are £44bn.

If you really think that the UK can simply abolish CT and raise the same through taxing individuals then I suggest you apply to the Office of Tax Simplification as I'm sure they'd appreciate your knowledge and ideas..

Of course nobody rational would suggest such a dramatic change overnight.

Which is why it has been happening in a drip drip fashion for decades.

[PorFavor]

Just for casual interest's sake (not that the bottom half matches the top half)

Guardian/ICM poll gives Tories 14-point lead over Labour

The Guardian has released its latest ICM poll. As Anushka Asthana reports in her splash story, it gives the Tories a 14-point lead.

The cabinet meeting comes as a new ICM/Guardian poll gives the Conservatives a 14-point lead over the opposition, with May’s party up one point to 41%, while Labour has fallen one point to 27%.

The survey, which has the Liberal Democrats in third place on 9%, comes as the Tories have welcomed a rise in membership of 50,000.

Here are the full figures.

Conservatives - 41% (down 2 points from ICM last month)

Labour - 27% (no change)

Ukip - 13% (no change)

Lib Dems - 9% (up 1)

Greens - 4% (no change) (Politics Live, Guardian)

[PorFavor]

Good morfternoon.

[citizenJA]

Good lord, relentless depressing news
Climate change, Brexit, Labour party challenges, hostilities on the road, threats
Washing machine broken

The day turned lovely outside
sunny, clear and clean after that rain earlier

[citizenJA]

Washer is fixed.

[StephenDolan]

Washer is fixed.

One fixed on the list, which one next?

[TR'sGhost]

. A switch from taxing companies to individuals would need global agreement otherwise companies would simply find another way of rewarding shareholders.

-What other ways of rewarding shareholders are there or could there be other than dividends/capital value increase on shareholdings? With small companies you can give them a job, but that is not the kind of company we are talking about.

I think it *is* happening globally, and I don't see why it needs international agreement. The decline in UK corporation tax rates is reflected in other countries too.

Transaction taxes: VAT.

We should stop treating corporations as if they were people. Tax the people (and their assets).

So you propose one of the most regressive forms of taxation there is.

I'm shocked, shocked and surprised I tell you.

Not.

[citizenJA]

Washer is fixed.

One fixed on the list, which one next?

As much as I appreciate the tumble dryer, I can't justify it's purchase or use given the configuration of the household.
Bathroom and kitchen desperately require modernisation. More contrary fixtures you'll never find. I sometimes ask
out loud to no one in particular, 'Was this component made to frustrate users for sport, then?' Some things were
engineered and made better years ago. Other things were cheap at the time and remain the bane of users'
existence where they remain installed.

I'm uncertain I've answered your question properly, StephenDolan. You're a good friend. If I've not understood
what you've meant, if I've replied prosaically to something requiring greater wit, let me know.

[citizenJA]

Labour Land Campaign

What is Land Value Tax? Most of the things we see around us were made by humanity. The buildings we live in, the
vehicles we use, the clothes we wear and even most of the food we eat are set in their present form by human effort.

Land is completely different.

http://www.labourland.org/what-is-land-value-tax/

http://www.labourland.org/downloads/pap ... enefit.pdf

[StephenDolan]

Washer is fixed.

One fixed on the list, which one next?

As much as I appreciate the tumble dryer, I can't justify it's purchase or use given the configuration of the household.
Bathroom and kitchen desperately require modernisation. More contrary fixtures you'll never find. I sometimes ask
out loud to no one in particular, 'Was this component made to frustrate users for sport, then?' Some things were
engineered and made better years ago. Other things were cheap at the time and remain the bane of users'
existence where they remain installed.

I'm uncertain I've answered your question properly, StephenDolan. You're a good friend. If I've not understood
what you've meant, if I've replied prosaically to something requiring greater wit, let me know.

No great wit required, and I'm glad to see (empathy, not revelry) I'm not the only one exasperated at times with the devils spawn, aka flimsy components. Dishwasher buttons that appear to be made from rice paper are a personal favourite.

Given that one of the list (Climate change, Brexit, Labour party challenges, hostilities on the road, threats
Washing machine broken) had been resolved, I was wondering what on the list you could resolve next.

[AnatolyKasparov]

SH is very certain in their predictions, which I wonder at given there are so many unknowns

That statement has a much wider application than just Labour's internal shenanigans, too.

[citizenJA]

No great wit required, and I'm glad to see (empathy, not revelry) I'm not the only one exasperated at times with the devils spawn, aka flimsy components. Dishwasher buttons that appear to be made from rice paper are a personal favourite.

Given that one of the list (Climate change, Brexit, Labour party challenges, hostilities on the road, threats
Washing machine broken) had been resolved, I was wondering what on the list you could resolve next.

Please add 'short term memory loss' to the depressing, unresolved list. I'm daily reminded I need reminders.

[SpinningHugo]

. A switch from taxing companies to individuals would need global agreement otherwise companies would simply find another way of rewarding shareholders.

-What other ways of rewarding shareholders are there or could there be other than dividends/capital value increase on shareholdings? With small companies you can give them a job, but that is not the kind of company we are talking about.

I think it *is* happening globally, and I don't see why it needs international agreement. The decline in UK corporation tax rates is reflected in other countries too.

Transaction taxes: VAT.

We should stop treating corporations as if they were people. Tax the people (and their assets).

So you propose one of the most regressive forms of taxation there is.

I'm shocked, shocked and surprised I tell you.

Not.

All depends how you structure your transaction taxes.

Taxes on sales of multimillion pound homes aren't very regressive, for example.

An LVT is also a good idea.

Go for taxes on people and things that are in the country and can't escape.

I think people (and the left in particular) anthropomorphise companies in a really unhelpful way. They are just legal constructs, they don't have any physical existence. We need to target tax on real world people and make sure it is distibutively fair. Corporation tax looks like a bad way of achieving that to me.

[RogerOThornhill]

I think people (and the left in particular) anthropomorphise companies in a really unhelpful way. They are just legal constructs, they don't have any physical existence. We need to target tax on real world people and make sure it is distibutively fair. Corporation tax looks like a bad way of achieving that to me.

Company policy and actions are directed by "real world people".

I don't actually see the issue with taxing companies - is there any country in the world that doesn't?

BTW you're starting to sound like Allistair Heath. Just sayin'...

[SpinningHugo]

I think people (and the left in particular) anthropomorphise companies in a really unhelpful way. They are just legal constructs, they don't have any physical existence. We need to target tax on real world people and make sure it is distibutively fair. Corporation tax looks like a bad way of achieving that to me.

Company policy and actions are directed by "real world people".

I don't actually see the issue with taxing companies - is there any country in the world that doesn't?

BTW you're starting to sound like Allistair Heath. Just sayin'...

The problem with taxing companies is shown by Apple: major corporations avoid it through these arbitrage methods.

This also distorts because smaller competitors operate at a disadvantage. An obvious example is a local coffee shop trying to compete with Starbucks. This deters new entrants to markets.

Tax stuff that can't move (land), capital wealth per se (ie not just when sold on), stuff that takes place here (transactions), and the income of people (though they can move, they don't like to do so much). Do it progressively, in a way that doesn't allow for gaming and market distortion.

['Just sayin' became embarrassing around 2003. Just sayin']

[PorFavor]

Dilma Rousseff impeached by Brazilian senate

Michel Temer confirmed as new president after 61 of 81 senators back Rousseff’s removal from office amid economic decline and bribery scandal (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... chel-temer

[tinybgoat]

Washer is fixed.

Coincidentally our washing machine is having trouble draining, which lead me to spend lunch time searching for information on 'strap on bosses'.
Surprisingly this didn't result in anything untoward , but I did accidentally leave browser on following page:

http://www.ultimatehandyman.co.uk/forum ... 23431.html

This must use the same software as flythenest & on my phone has the same appearance.
I've just opened browser & had a quick panic, because
i)all the usernames, avatars and taglines had suddenly changed.
ii)everyone was talking about washing machines.

I come back here and there's more: washers, driers, assorted unspecified dysfunctional domestic appliances (& one spinner.)
I knew I should just have deleted those cookies.

[RogerOThornhill]

The problem with taxing companies is shown by Apple: major corporations avoid it through these arbitrage methods.

Right.

So Apple, a corporation decided to do this all by itself without any human intervention?

No, of course it didn't. It may, as you argue, be a legal construct but there are people deciding policy behind this.

I've never seen anyone argue for not taxing companies apart from free market loons like heath or the IEA. The fact that no country seems to have taken them up on this is telling.