Tuesday 6th September 2016

Post by **refitman** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 7:11 am

Morning all.

From last night, HindleA posted links to the new report on UC:

http://www.instituteforgovernment.org.u ... r-recovery" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.instituteforgovernment.org.u ... sal-credit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 8:03 am

" We recruited 120,000 people in a brief period in July and early August". Wow. Impressive from Saving Labour. If true. And the cut-off date for voting rights is? Ah.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/don-bri ... 63598.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 8:30 am

StephenDolan wrote:" We recruited 120,000 people in a brief period in July and early August". Wow. Impressive from Saving Labour. If true. And the cut-off date for voting rights is? Ah.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/don-bri ... 63598.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Race’s contention is that because YouGov has no direct access to the 120,000 new voters they failed to capture a highly significant in the selectorate. “They simply do not know who these voters are”, he says. “They are very different in composition and political views from previous groups that have been polled. The electorate has been significantly changed.”

Don't like the sound of this, How different can they be? Who have they signed up, what's the price?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 8:37 am

What do you mean by 'what's the price' Tinyb ?
Isn't it a sign of vibrant democracy in action when people sign up ?

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 9:00 am

Got my conference pack the other day. Worst. Photo ID. Ever.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 9:04 am

Good morfternoon.

@RogerOThornhill

Would you do me a great service, please, and post the Owen Paterson\Dominic Grieve clip (from last night) onto today's thread so that I can more easily keep flipping back to it? It will help to keep me sane.

Thank you.

Edited - typo

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 9:06 am

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/uk-retail-spe ... iness.html

The BRC said it was the weakest reading since September 2014, excluding distortions caused by the timing of public holidays, but it did not appear to be a delayed reaction by consumers to the shock June 23 vote to leave the European Union.
"Care should be taken in reading too much into August's lacklustre performance," BRC Chief Executive Helen Dickinson said, noting volatile swings in recent British economic data.
"The fact is that, so far, little has directly changed for the UK's consumers as a result of the referendum," she said.

So good figures for July, show brexit fears are unfounded, bad figures for August ok, because brexit hasn't had an effect yet.

Britain's consumers, who drove the country's recovery from the financial crisis, appear to have largely taken the Brexit vote in their stride for now, according to several indicators.
However, purchases of new cars by individuals have fallen since the referendum and there have been signs of weaker demand in housing market. The Bank of England expects rising inflation and uncertainty about Britain's future trading relationship with the EU to weigh on the economy in the months and years ahead.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 9:08 am

This for CJA

Jess Phillips MP ‏@jessphillips 12h12 hours ago
Now in the Finance Bill to support @CarolineFlintMP and her amendment to stop unfairness in multinational tax reporting and loopholes

Angry Bird Flies ‏@Rosiecat2 12h12 hours ago
@jessphillips @CarolineFlintMP Are you still working? 21:21pm ?

Jess Phillips MPVerified account
‏@jessphillips
@Rosiecat2 @CarolineFlintMP finished at 11.30pm

Crazy working hours our MP's have to put up with.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 9:17 am

PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

@RogerOThornhill

Would you do me a great service, please, and post the Owen Paterson\Dominic Grieve clip (from last night) onto today's thread so that I can more easily keep flipping back to it? It will help to keep me sane.

Thank you.

Edited - typo

Here's the link again - not sure how to extract just the clip though.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 9:19 am

StephenDolan wrote:" We recruited 120,000 people in a brief period in July and early August". Wow. Impressive from Saving Labour. If true. And the cut-off date for voting rights is? Ah.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/don-bri ... 63598.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

These would be people who registered as supporters in late July and affiliated union members who have always had a vote but have never considered using it before. 'Saving Labour' have clearly done some work to try to attract these two specific groups to support Owen Smith and they are probably right in suggesting these groups may be under-represented in the YouGov poll. But enough to outweigh Corbyn's lead among those voters YouGov has been able to identify? That does seem unlikely. I suspect the point of this article from 'Saving Labour's point of view is to try to limit the damage that could be done by potential Owen Smith voters, especially the occasional affiliated union voters, deciding Corbyn's so far ahead there's no point in even voting. They want to avoid losing by too much.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 9:27 am

@RogerOThornhill

Thank you. (You've done exactly as I wanted you to do - I just don't know what I'm talking about in matters technical!)

Edited to add -

I've already re-visited it three times since you re-posted it. Should keep me going for a while yet.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 9:29 am

yahyah wrote:What do you mean by 'what's the price' Tinyb ?
Isn't it a sign of vibrant democracy in action when people sign up ?

When I sign up, yes.
Others, I'm not so sure.
No, your right, I'm sure it's very important to get a workable balance of views in the party's membership. I'm sure Reg knows what he's doing

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 9:49 am

That made me chuckle Tinyb.
Reg Race eh ? Can't say more but he was on the periphery of a group of North London friends back in the day when we still lived in Palmers Green.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 9:59 am

I haven't read this yet by John Harris but it appears in the printed edition in their long read series.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... e-a-future

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 10:09 am

tinybgoat wrote:
yahyah wrote:What do you mean by 'what's the price' Tinyb ?
Isn't it a sign of vibrant democracy in action when people sign up ?
When I sign up, yes.
Others, I'm not so sure.
No, your right, I'm sure it's very important to get a workable balance of views in the party's membership. I'm sure Reg knows what he's doing

I know of many people who have said they signed up via sving labour and then voted forr corbyn.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 10:27 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:I haven't read this yet by John Harris but it appears in the printed edition in their long read series.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... e-a-future

Its a good article but there are many glaring absences it it. How can you talk about the future of the british left but not have a single mention of the green party in it? This is about whether labour has a future bundled up in a sweeping generalisation of the 'left'. It's about the Labour party, not the Left.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 10:41 am

Good-morning, everyone.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 11:19 am

Don Brind's "analysis" has been widely condemned as Panglossian. Just saying.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 11:23 am

AngryAsWell wrote:This for CJA

Jess Phillips MP ‏@jessphillips 12h12 hours ago
Now in the Finance Bill to support @CarolineFlintMP and her amendment to stop unfairness in multinational tax reporting and loopholes

Angry Bird Flies ‏@Rosiecat2 12h12 hours ago
@jessphillips @CarolineFlintMP Are you still working? 21:21pm ?

Jess Phillips MPVerified account
‏@jessphillips
@Rosiecat2 @CarolineFlintMP finished at 11.30pm

Crazy working hours our MP's have to put up with.

Thank you for thinking of me and my post yesterday. I've worked in many different places, many jobs. I've not worked as an MP. I've not seen them work. Knowing what it's like for a contemporary Labour MP, not necessarily one or a few in particular, helps understand them as people. We're human. Where we work and live generally determines what we see, regardless of who we are or where we work. What is the work MPs do on a daily basis, the protocols, obligations, system structures? Death threats and hostile media stoking rage against people doing a job are unacceptable. Slapping a name on people after lumping them into group without understanding their work or knowing more about them isn't good. I wouldn't tolerate those working conditions and wouldn't subject anyone else to them either. I don't agree with George Osborne's claim that politics is 'rough and tumble', so suck it up.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 11:45 am

Temulkar wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:I haven't read this yet by John Harris but it appears in the printed edition in their long read series.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... e-a-future
Its a good article but there are many glaring absences it it. How can you talk about the future of the british left but not have a single mention of the green party in it? This is about whether labour has a future bundled up in a sweeping generalisation of the 'left'. It's about the Labour party, not the Left.

Its certainly better than the recent boilerplate "OMG Labour is doomed if it doesn't become racist!!" Harris output, but that's setting the bar fairly low.

And your point is also perfectly valid

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 12:02 pm

Universal basic income. I can never get my head (or gut instinct) to come to a conclusion as to whether it's a good thing or not.

http://www.progressonline.org.uk/2016/0 ... eneration/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 12:15 pm

My gut instinct is that it is a good idea. Beware of the misuse that "libertarians" can subject the concept to, however.......

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 12:30 pm

Well.

Important gaps remain in government's approach to apprenticeships, National Audit Office finds

https://www.tes.com/news/further-educat ... nticeships

In its report on apprenticeships, published today, the NAO said that while the Department for Education was making progress in a number of areas in what was a complex challenge with a tight timeframe, there remained “some important gaps in its approach”.

"At the most strategic level, the DfE has not set out the collective impact that the programme is intended to achieve, how the increase in apprenticeship numbers can deliver the maximum gain in economic productivity, and how it will influence the mix of apprenticeships in order to deliver the most value,” said the report.

It added: “It has further to go in ensuring that all apprenticeships meet basic quality requirements, and that the quality of training is consistently high. Alongside this, the DfE needs to strengthen its approach to managing some of the risks associated with a programme of this size and complexity, putting itself in a position to respond quickly and decisively should risks begin to emerge.”

Good to see Labour's target culture is behind us now and we're concentrating just on quality...

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 12:41 pm

Just in case anyone cares . .

2m ago 12:37
Keith Vaz resigns as home affairs committee chair

Keith Vaz has put out a statement announcing his resignation as chair of the Commons home affairs committee. The statement is embargoed until 2.45pm, but the BBC’s Ross Hawkins has just posted it on Twitter. [Like you do . . . . ] (Politics Live, Guardian)

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 1:32 pm

The Jeremy Corbyn [UB40] press conference is about to start. According to politics.co.uk Adam Bienkov, the Corbyn team were asking journalists to presubmit questions.

Adam Bienkov
✔
@AdamBienkov

By the way, a press conference where questions have to be pre-submitted isn't a press conference. It's a performance.
12:28 PM - 6 Sep 2016

35 35 Retweets
31

Discuss.

Edited - typo. And I typed so little! But brackets were involved.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 1:39 pm

Fundamentally against,doesn't help granted by an organisation whose acolytes posited elimination of the "weak,feeble".Inevitable shift from income to "services" -currently in the process of abolishing Attendance Allowance with barely a murmer ie.from Universal entitlement to localised discretion .The "complex" (non)argument is a complete ruse,all simplification means is removal and reduction for targeted groups,the winners and losers scenario-the long term sick/disabled being the biggest losers ,with feigned offset by "double accounting" disingenuous fakery.There are evidential reasoning behind the bemoaned complexity.Extremely naive to push UBI .Far better to attend to keeping necessary complexity,rather than aiding its removalIMHO..

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 1:40 pm

PorFavor wrote:
The Jeremy Corbyn [UB40] press conference is about to start. According to politics.co.uk Adam Bienkov, the Corbyn team were asking journalists to presubmit questions.

Adam Bienkov
✔
@AdamBienkov

By the way, a press conference where questions have to be pre-submitted isn't a press conference. It's a performance.
12:28 PM - 6 Sep 2016

35 35 Retweets
31
Discuss

Now, I wonder why he might have taken that line?

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 1:41 pm

Owen Smith on WATO at the moment.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 1:45 pm

"In England, an apprenticeship is a full-time paid job, available to those aged 16 or over. It incorporates on and off-the-job
training and leads to a nationally recognised certificate. Annual public funding of apprenticeships has grown over time.
In 2010-11, it amounted to just under £1.2 billion, but by 2015-16 the figure had risen to around £1.5 billion.

Employers involved in developing the new standards have expressed
concern about the time they have to invest at their own expense.

Employers report high levels of satisfaction with the training offered and benefits experienced, but surveys of apprentices
provide a less clear view on quality of delivery. One in five apprentices reported that they had not received any formal
training at all, either at an external provider or in the workplace. Ofsted reports suggest that, overall, around a fifth of
training providers need to improve the quality of their training and the results they achieve."

- National Audit Office (NAO) Press Release
6 September 2016

https://www.nao.org.uk/press-release/de ... programme/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(my emphasis)

Employers have the audacity to complain they've got to actually give time to train their workers something.

Regardless of age, the first year of an apprenticeship pays £3.30 an hour. Paying different wages based upon
age and employment status is likely nothing more than a way to avoid paying workers properly for their labour.

Some employers are advertising 'apprenticeships' with stipulations only skilled workers apply for them and
they'll pay £3.30 an hour for that full-time work. That's less than £120 a week. £6000 for one year. Employers
are asking someone to work full-time without providing any security beyond one first year, without teaching
anyone anything, stealing the labour of others.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 2:09 pm

Oh dear...

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 4:18 pm

Competence.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/polit ... d-11848401" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 5:05 pm

HindleA wrote:Fundamentally against,doesn't help granted by an organisation whose acolytes posited elimination of the "weak,feeble".Inevitable shift from income to "services" -currently in the process of abolishing Attendance Allowance with barely a murmer ie.from Universal entitlement to localised discretion .The "complex" (non)argument is a complete ruse,all simplification means is removal and reduction for targeted groups,the winners and losers scenario-the long term sick/disabled being the biggest losers ,with feigned offset by "double accounting" disingenuous fakery.There are evidential reasoning behind the bemoaned complexity.Extremely naive to push UBI .Far better to attend to keeping necessary complexity,rather than aiding its removalIMHO..

Are you referring to Universal Basic Income, or to Universal Credit though A? They are two entirely different concepts.

Greetings all.

Hobiejoe · Post by **Hobiejoe** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 5:09 pm

Can't link to it because I'm on my "intuitive" iPhone, but the Beeb news website has a new grammar school story....

*edit* As does the Graun.

TR'sGhost · Post by **TR'sGhost** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 5:21 pm

PorFavor wrote:
The Jeremy Corbyn [UB40] press conference is about to start. According to politics.co.uk Adam Bienkov, the Corbyn team were asking journalists to presubmit questions.

Adam Bienkov
✔
@AdamBienkov

By the way, a press conference where questions have to be pre-submitted isn't a press conference. It's a performance.
12:28 PM - 6 Sep 2016

35 35 Retweets
31
Discuss.

Edited - typo. And I typed so little! But brackets were involved.

Normal practice for as long as there has been journalists and politicians. Hardly controversial, no matter how much journalists try and dress it up. Amongst other things it helps prevent ambushing by asking questions about something that may be misrepresented by the journalist or even completely invented, to be followed by stories about how the politician failed to satisfactorily answer a crucial question, such as do they deny they've stopped beating their partner yet or what do they suggest should be done about the alien abductions crisis?

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 5:30 pm

Hobiejoe wrote:Can't link to it because I'm on my "intuitive" iPhone, but the Beeb news website has a new grammar school story....

*edit* As does the Graun.

Here it is.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... mo-reveals" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I very much doubt it was accidental.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 5:32 pm

But is the person who leaked it in favour of the idea or against?

Hobiejoe · Post by **Hobiejoe** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 5:38 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:But is the person who leaked it in favour of the idea or against?

Apparently the doc was being carried by Lord Howe, and mentions the opposition of the Lords, so "against" is my guess.

Hobiejoe · Post by **Hobiejoe** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 5:55 pm

Looking at the way he's holding the memo, he might as well have been singing "Flash, bang, wallop; what a picture! What a photograph!" as he walked past the paps.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 6:37 pm

Hobiejoe wrote:Looking at the way he's holding the memo, he might as well have been singing "Flash, bang, wallop; what a picture! What a photograph!" as he walked past the paps.

And do you know where you can stick it?

Stick it in your family al-bum!

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 6:41 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:Oh dear...

What is government policy?

Government policy is government policy.

(The Dominic Grieve non-clip is still keeping me amused, by the way.)

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 7:54 pm

"You recently signed the petition “Debate in the House the Local Government Pension Scheme Investment Regulations”:
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/125475" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Petitions Committee has agreed to schedule a debate on this petition.

Before setting a date for the debate, the Committee agreed to ask for more information from the Government about its response to a consultation on this issue, to which it referred in its response to the petition.

We will keep you informed about what is happening."

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 10:12 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... my-margate" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Police were called to a school in the Kent seaside resort of Margate on Tuesday after about 50 pupils were sent home for wearing the wrong clothes.

My son's school deals with uniform infringements with more school, not less. Break time detention for first offence, escalating to after school detention for repeat offences. I'm not sure how effective it is, but it's certainly less disruptive and distressing than the approach in the above article. I wonder how these heads who rely on 'perfect' uniform to transform dis-advantaged children into academic stars would go about upping standards in a German school where children can wear what they want? How on earth would they be able to apply their academy school genius if pupils can't be humiliated and left unattended and unsupervised and in tears for accidentally committing the faux pas of wearing shoes with gold buckles? Seriously, though, is there any evidence this approach works? Locally last year a child ended up wandering the streets alone all morning because their parents were at work and they didn't know what to do. It doesn't seem right, to me.

TR'sGhost · Post by **TR'sGhost** » Tue 06 Sep, 2016 11:01 pm

Personally I regard a school uniform obsession as a malaise that afflicts unimaginary head teachers and benefits no-one but school,uniform suppliers.

My secondary, which went comprehensive the year I started, by merging a boy's grammar, boy's secondary modern and girl's ditto suffered badly from uniformitis.

Boys blazer - blue years 1-3, black 4-5. In the correct (and rather shoddy) over-priced material, only available from the one and only approved uniform shop.
Boy's shirts - grey in winter, white in summer, school badge on pocket. Only available from the same approved shop.
Girl's blouses - white with blue checking. In specific material made by a specific (local but nationally known) manufacturer. Check had to be a specific dimension which was only made for the school uniform so very expensive. Senior female teacher often spent her playtimes wandering around with a ruler measuring said cheque and examining labels to check for total blouse compliance. Only available from the same shop as the rest.
Boy's sport kit ditto, double-sided top, so white or blue depending whether you turned it inside out or not. No, separate blue and white shirts were most definitely not allowed. Only available from, well, hazard a guess.

Boy's shoes to be lace-up plain black, socks grey. Girl's shoes plain brown, socks white. Flat soles only, no heels. Though at least you could get them where you liked.

Punishment for incorrect uniform ranged from isolation and letter to parents to caning (for boys) if felt to be taking the piss or persistent malefactors.

In the sixth form we were allowed to wear dark jacket and "proper" trousers of our choosing so long as they didn't upset anyone. School tie still compulsory.

Did this help the academic standard? Not in the least. Worst science/maths A-level results in the county in my year and a few subsequent ones until various of the old guard, some of whom were certifiably bonkers, retired.

Did it help discipline? Not in the slightest. All it meant was the kid sent down for attempted murder, the kids who set the hall curtains ablaze one wet break-time, and the rest of the bullies, junior protection racketeers and the Saturday afternoon football hooligans were smartly dressed as per regulations.

One oddity was that there was no regulation at all about the length of boy's hair other than "no skinheads". An ommission several of us took full advantage of, and one or two still do

Narked some of the teachers but for whatever reason no regulation was ever issued on the subject. Possibly because the existing ones had been laid down in time immemorial and a new regulation was banned on account of being new and therefore insufficiently conservative.

To be fair, there were a few really good teachers, from both the ex-grammar and ex-secondary moderns. Though it has to be said the cream of the poorest were both ex-grammar school teachers who gave a good impression to parents but were woeful regarding their subjects.