Thursday 3rd November 2016

[Willow904]

David Davies MPVerified account
‏@DavidTCDavies
Unelected judges calling the shots. This is precisely why we voted out. Power to the people!

Judges merely interpret the laws parliament makes and apparently parliament didn't reserve the crown's right to undo EU laws when enacting them via the ECA 1972.

As Anatoly comments above, there is little risk that parliament will decline to invoke article 50. The risk is the concessions that may be forced out of government by those resistant to hard Brexit, in return for their support.

[StephenDolan]

Owen Smith ✔ @OwenSmith_MP
Labour should amend Article 50 Bill to give the British people the final say on real terms of Brexit. Or I will seek that from backbenches.
11:39 AM - 3 Nov 2016

Why does he have to be blurting this out in public? Dope.

[HindleA]

Rutherford & others (bedroom tax) Supreme Court decision 9th November 09.45





https://www.supremecourt.uk/news/future ... =hootsuite" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[PorFavor]

Owen Smith ✔ @OwenSmith_MP
Labour should amend Article 50 Bill to give the British people the final say on real terms of Brexit. Or I will seek that from backbenches.
11:39 AM - 3 Nov 2016

Why does he have to be blurting this out in public? Dope.

Quite. It's time for a bit of cunning. Pillock.

[Willow904]

Owen Smith ✔ @OwenSmith_MP
Labour should amend Article 50 Bill to give the British people the final say on real terms of Brexit. Or I will seek that from backbenches.
11:39 AM - 3 Nov 2016

Why does he have to be blurting this out in public? Dope.

I don't think it's any different from the Green party stance.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 22221.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Although I understand why Labour would choose to sit on the fence, ultimately there is a basic choice that has to be made as to whether or not we remain in the single market and I don't think having a referendum to ensure a majority of the country supports whichever road we choose is the worst idea, though it's certainly problematic. One way or another, a case for whatever type of Brexit we pursue has to be made and a consensus for it won, or the current division in our society will only deepen.

[JonnyT1234]

Why this is significant: the Tories will now have to bring the opposition into the Brexit negotiations tent. Otherwise they'll potentially never get Article 50 invoked. This means Brexit will be a parliamentary one, not a Tory one. And definitely not a hard right Tory one.

I don't think it'll stop Brexit from happening though.

P.S. The opportunity for Labour here is for them to represent the third that voted leave, the third that abstained AND the third that voted remain, while hammering home that the Tories have chosen to only represent the third who voted to Leave. It may still be Brexit, but it'll be one that is for the whole country not just a fraction of it.

Edit: removed a transposed 'who'

[JonnyT1234]

Article 50 Author Reveals He Only Thought It Would Be Used During A Dictatorial Coup - The Huffington Post - UK
https://apple.news/AO76py4R_TTWe7-6nOFONWQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Debating point: whether or not that is exactly what happened here?

[PorFavor]

No word yet from Cardinal Wolsey (aka Jeremy Wright).

Edited to add -

Sobering thought -

Although Henry VIII ultimately got what he wanted

[JonnyT1234]

The poppy has become a symbol of racism – I have never worn one, and now I never will - The Independent
https://apple.news/AiqDwe3bOSAeVjfGtf1C-pQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Strident, but powerful points made against the likes of Farage and his merry men.

[Womble44]

I don't see how the public can practically be given a direct say on the terms of Brexit through anything other than a GE, there are too many options (which is why offering a binary referendum was so stupid). How could a referendum be structured to get a definitive answer? An alternative vote system could choose least worst option I guess?

[JonnyT1234]

A taster.

British soldiers went off to fight and die in their tens of thousands for little Catholic Belgium, today the seat of the EU where Nigel Farage disgraced his country by telling the grandchildren of those we went to fight for that they'd never done a day's work in their lives. In France, British (and, of course, Irish) soldiers bled to death in even greater Golgothas – 20,000 alone on the first day of the Somme in 1916 – to save the nation which we are now throwing out of our shiny new insular lives.

[AnatolyKasparov]

The "second referendum" idea seems attractive on the face of it, until you confront the question of what happens if there is a negative vote there as well......

Staying in the EU for the forseeable future, even though a majority voted to leave? Or having to endure, effectively by default, an WTO-only "hard" Brexit??

Both, it is fair to say, are deeply problematic options.

[JonnyT1234]

World on track for 3C of warming under current global climate pledges, warns UN - the guardian
https://apple.news/ATDrYroYVQhuwqPNJHN-uHw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One of life's perplexing little paradoxes: the very people most against 'mass immigration' are the very ones who are going to cause it on a global scale because they deny what's happening in front of their very eyes.

[JonnyT1234]

The "second referendum" idea seems attractive on the face of it, until you confront the question of what happens if there is a negative vote there as well......

Staying in the EU for the forseeable future, even though a majority voted to leave? Or having to endure, effectively by default, an WTO-only "hard" Brexit??

Both, it is fair to say, are deeply problematic options.

Given the dismal quality of the last one, the chances are that we'd end up with a majority for the very hardest of Brexits because it'd "give us our sovereignty back and the NHS £350billion per microsecond* that we send to the EU."

[* yes, I know]

[Willow904]

The "second referendum" idea seems attractive on the face of it, until you confront the question of what happens if there is a negative vote there as well......

Staying in the EU for the forseeable future, even though a majority voted to leave? Or having to endure, effectively by default, an WTO-only "hard" Brexit??

Both, it is fair to say, are deeply problematic options.

As those calling for a second referendum are asking for one on the shape of Brexit, not a second in/out one, surely we are talking about whether or not we remain in the single market. Either answer would thus provide a basis in which to proceed. Of course it's possible hard Brexit might win, but then again, at least people would have voted for it, whereas currently they have not.

Edited to add that as we seem to be headed for hard Brexit anyway, for those who want to remain in the single market, supporting such a referendum could hardly make it worse.

[Womble44]

Surely that depends what you mean by stay in the single market?

[JonnyT1234]

No word yet from Cardinal Wolsey (aka Jeremy Wright).

Edited to add -

Sobering thought -

Although Henry VIII ultimately got what he wanted

Six times. (I'm not including Ann of Cleves)

[Willow904]

Surely that depends what you mean by stay in the single market?

The single market is what it is. You are either a full member (with freedom of movement of goods, capital, services and people) or you aren't.

[StephenDolan]

Why does he have to be blurting this out in public? Dope.

Quite. It's time for a bit of cunning. Pillock.

Benn shows he's a bit more clued up.

[frightful_oik]

World on track for 3C of warming under current global climate pledges, warns UN - the guardian
https://apple.news/ATDrYroYVQhuwqPNJHN-uHw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One of life's perplexing little paradoxes: the very people most against 'mass immigration' are the very ones who are going to cause it on a global scale because they deny what's happening in front of their very eyes.

Paradox? Or contradiction? Tricky!

[Womble44]

Surely that depends what you mean by stay in the single market?

The single market is what it is. You are either a full member (with freedom of movement of goods, capital, services and people) or you aren't.

But that would just be rerunning the original referendum wouldn't it?

Edited: in the eyes of its opponents I mean.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

I'm revelling in the torrent of angry comments on Twitter etc about the ruling - they verge on pure comedy. Of course you can see why people are upset. But it's hard to imagine that the court has got this wrong.

People should remember that this whole thing was started by one of the most hopeless PMs this country has ever had. Did they expect it to go well?

[yahyah]

Owen Smith ✔ @OwenSmith_MP
Labour should amend Article 50 Bill to give the British people the final say on real terms of Brexit. Or I will seek that from backbenches.
11:39 AM - 3 Nov 2016

Why does he have to be blurting this out in public? Dope.

Some people may want to hear it.

[Womble44]

i don't want to leave the EU by the way, I just think it will be damaging to democracy to try and find a way to technically leave the EU that doesn't address the issues that led people to vote that way.

It risks opening space for fringe parties to step in and present the mainstream parties as dishonest.

[Womble44]

I'm revelling in the torrent of angry comments on Twitter etc about the ruling - they verge on pure comedy. Of course you can see why people are upset. But it's hard to imagine that the court has got this wrong.

People should remember that this whole thing was started by one of the most hopeless PMs this country has ever had. Did they expect it to go well?

But will MPs have the guts to vote on their official party lines? I imagine Labour MPs sitting in 'leave' constituencies are going to have a tough time going forward.

[yahyah]

@ Por Favor.

The problem with cunning is it may leave a lot of voters thinking 'what the hell are Labour going to do?'
A bit of bold leadership wouldn't go amiss. Labour's approach seems like a plate of jelly.

[RogerOThornhill]

Worth recalling this bit from the Tory manifesto of 2015...

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Irony after irony

The Latest: Italian anti-EU leader: Brexit vote should stand

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/art ... uling.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Willow904]

Surely that depends what you mean by stay in the single market?

The single market is what it is. You are either a full member (with freedom of movement of goods, capital, services and people) or you aren't.

But that would just be rerunning the original referendum wouldn't it?

Edited: in the eyes of its opponents I mean.

As memory serves, during the referendum the so-called 'Norway option' was often mentioned as a possible post-EU relationship. If we allow Theresa May to reframe the debate as only hard Brexit fulfills the referendum result we will end up with hard Brexit, so those who wish to remain in the single market need to get on and fight for it and create a mood in the country that membership of the single market is a priority. Have the lessons of 2010 been so quickly forgotten?

[PaulfromYorkshire]

@ Por Favor.

The problem with cunning is it may leave a lot of voters thinking 'what the hell are Labour going to do?'
A bit of bold leadership wouldn't go amiss. Labour's approach seems like a plate of jelly.

Putting aside whether it is the right approach, actually Labour is rather solid and consistent in its response now IMHO.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

The single market is what it is. You are either a full member (with freedom of movement of goods, capital, services and people) or you aren't.

But that would just be rerunning the original referendum wouldn't it?

Edited: in the eyes of its opponents I mean.

As memory serves, during the referendum the so-called 'Norway option' was often mentioned as a possible post-EU relationship. If we allow Theresa May to reframe the debate as only hard Brexit fulfills the referendum result we will end up with hard Brexit, so those who wish to remain in the single market need to get on and fight for it and create a mood in the country that membership of the single market is a priority. Have the lessons of 2010 been so quickly forgotten?

But Labour is basically arguing for the Single Market isn't it? I think you have what you want.

[Womble44]

The single market is what it is. You are either a full member (with freedom of movement of goods, capital, services and people) or you aren't.

But that would just be rerunning the original referendum wouldn't it?

Edited: in the eyes of its opponents I mean.

As memory serves, during the referendum the so-called 'Norway option' was often mentioned as a possible post-EU relationship. If we allow Theresa May to reframe the debate as only hard Brexit fulfills the referendum result we will end up with hard Brexit, so those who wish to remain in the single market need to get on and fight for it and create a mood in the country that membership of the single market is a priority. Have the lessons of 2010 been so quickly forgotten?

True, I just think it will be perceived as ignoring the referendum. It may be that the electoral benefits will outweigh the costs, but my gut feeling is that it will cause bigger problems further down the line.

[PorFavor]

Farage:I will return if Brexit hasn't happened by 2019 (tickertape thingy on BBC News TV)

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Farage:I will return if Brexit hasn't happened by 2019 (tickertape thingy on BBC News TV)

[citizenJA]

Good-morning, everyone.

Morning! How are you today?

Moving around a lot. I apologise for not answering your kind question earlier, PorFavor. I'm fine and I hope you're well.

[yahyah]

Good to hear JA.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Quite sensible from John Rentoul

Parliament was always going to vote for Article 50 – Theresa May could have saved herself the embarrassment at the High Court
Jeremy Corbyn cannot credibly threaten to block Brexit. He called on the morning after the referendum for Article 50 to be triggered. But more importantly he couldn't take his party with him

[PorFavor]

Farage:I will return if Brexit hasn't happened by 2019 (tickertape thingy on BBC News TV)

I assume he means as UKIP leader. Rather arrogantly jumping the gun (although he's probably a cert to win any leadership election - but presumably someone would have to engineer one when the time came).

[citizenJA]

World on track for 3C of warming under current global climate pledges, warns UN - the guardian
https://apple.news/ATDrYroYVQhuwqPNJHN-uHw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One of life's perplexing little paradoxes: the very people most against 'mass immigration' are the very ones who are going to cause it on a global scale because they deny what's happening in front of their very eyes.

Yes. Fear and anger prevent seeing with all our eyes.

[gilsey]

I'm revelling in the torrent of angry comments on Twitter etc about the ruling - they verge on pure comedy. Of course you can see why people are upset. But it's hard to imagine that the court has got this wrong.

People should remember that this whole thing was started by one of the most hopeless PMs this country has ever had. Did they expect it to go well?

Do you follow Greg Callus?

we - lawyers, legal academics etc - are guilty of a massive oversight in failing to register *at the time*...

that David Cameron was planning to send Article 50 letter the day after the Referendum, & no-one noticed that was against our constitution

If DC had followed through, there would have been a major constitutional crisis. And we missed it. All of us. That's truly terrifying.

[citizenJA]

Farage:I will return if Brexit hasn't happened by 2019 (tickertape thingy on BBC News TV)

I assume he means as UKIP leader. Rather arrogantly jumping the gun (although he's probably a cert to win any leadership election - but presumably someone would have to engineer one when the time came).

I thought it meant he'd return to the UK. Isn't he cooling his heels elsewhere now?

[Willow904]

But that would just be rerunning the original referendum wouldn't it?

Edited: in the eyes of its opponents I mean.

As memory serves, during the referendum the so-called 'Norway option' was often mentioned as a possible post-EU relationship. If we allow Theresa May to reframe the debate as only hard Brexit fulfills the referendum result we will end up with hard Brexit, so those who wish to remain in the single market need to get on and fight for it and create a mood in the country that membership of the single market is a priority. Have the lessons of 2010 been so quickly forgotten?

But Labour is basically arguing for the Single Market isn't it? I think you have what you want.

Are they?

I could have missed it, of course, but I'd be surprised if you could direct me to a single quote where either Jeremy Corbyn or John McDonnell have stressed the importance of retaining full membership of the single market. I appreciate that doesn't mean they wouldn't ultimately support that option, but they aren't actively arguing for it. They are kowtowing to leave voters at this point in time. Meanwhile the Tories are framing the debate and driving us towards hard Brexit with opposition coming from the SNP, NI in general, the Libdems and Greens and occasionally Carwyn Jones. I don't really care who argues in favour of the single market as long as someone does, because if we don't we will either have hard Brexit or an unpopular "soft one". It's about winning hearts and minds, it's about building a consensus, about energising people to actively want and choose membership of the single market and be content with it when they get it.

[RogerOThornhill]

This from Jo Maugham on the implications of this morning's outcome.

http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/polit ... ean-brexit

But it is very possible—indeed it is likely—that MPs will seek to impose conditions on the government’s decision to trigger Article 50. Those conditions are likely to be a mix of procedural and substantive.

The procedural conditions may include a requirement that government presents its negotiating strategy to parliament in advance of triggering Article 50; that it regularly reports to parliament on the progress of negotiations; and perhaps even that it gives to parliament the final say over whether to accept the outcome of those negotiations.

The substantive conditions may include setting the government’s negotiating priorities—and a requirement that the outcome meets certain economic objectives. Remember Gordon Brown’s Five Economic Tests for joining the Euro?

And this is entirely appropriate. The people may have voted for Brexit but they did not say what Brexit means. The complex job of unpicking that meaning—mindful of the views of the whole electorate, for the referendum was not a vote to exclude the 48 per cent from participating in the shaping of the future of their country—must be for our elected parliament rather than for a Prime Minister whose personal democratic mandate as Prime Minister is weak indeed.

[RogerOThornhill]

Tim Shipman
‏@ShippersUnbound

Interesting. Dominic Cummings of Vote Leave backs the judges and tells Brexiteers to calm down.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[citizenJA]

Before I forget, I'm posting the link below now. I'd ask last night why thousands of people risk their lives to get elsewhere.
I found a link in my morning's e-mail effectively answering my question. I don't know a lot about the the Conversation.
I've only read the article once. It's fascinating. Let me know if the publication or researchers are less than credible,
please.

"Our new research with 500 refugees and migrants in Italy, Greece, Turkey and Malta reveals a much more complicated picture of
protracted, fragmented journeys. Between them, our respondents travelled along nearly 100 different routes before eventually
reaching Europe, sometimes having spent months or even years living elsewhere. The convergence of these routes in Turkey
and Libya helps us to understand why the number of migrants heading to Europe increased to just over a million in 2015."

- No direct flight: new maps show the fragmented journeys of migrants and refugees to Europe

https://theconversation.com/no-direct-f ... rope-67955" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[PorFavor]

Tim Shipman
‏@ShippersUnbound

Interesting. Dominic Cummings of Vote Leave backs the judges and tells Brexiteers to calm down.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes - I saw a bit about it over at the Guardian. He's also said "Leave means Leave" - which made me smirk a bit. But a least "leave" is a real word - albeit one with several definitions.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Tim Shipman
‏@ShippersUnbound

Interesting. Dominic Cummings of Vote Leave backs the judges and tells Brexiteers to calm down.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Whatever else you say about him (and you can say a great deal, as indeed I have in the past) he isn't stupid.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

As memory serves, during the referendum the so-called 'Norway option' was often mentioned as a possible post-EU relationship. If we allow Theresa May to reframe the debate as only hard Brexit fulfills the referendum result we will end up with hard Brexit, so those who wish to remain in the single market need to get on and fight for it and create a mood in the country that membership of the single market is a priority. Have the lessons of 2010 been so quickly forgotten?

But Labour is basically arguing for the Single Market isn't it? I think you have what you want.

Are they?

I could have missed it, of course, but I'd be surprised if you could direct me to a single quote where either Jeremy Corbyn or John McDonnell have stressed the importance of retaining full membership of the single market. I appreciate that doesn't mean they wouldn't ultimately support that option, but they aren't actively arguing for it. They are kowtowing to leave voters at this point in time. Meanwhile the Tories are framing the debate and driving us towards hard Brexit with opposition coming from the SNP, NI in general, the Libdems and Greens and occasionally Carwyn Jones. I don't really care who argues in favour of the single market as long as someone does, because if we don't we will either have hard Brexit or an unpopular "soft one". It's about winning hearts and minds, it's about building a consensus, about energising people to actively want and choose membership of the single market and be content with it when they get it.

They don't use the words "single market" true, but Starmer, echoed by Corbyn, is emphasising that we shouldn't let immigration concerns trump the economic and employment advantages of being linked to the EU.

The logical conclusion of that line of thinking is to be part of the single market.

[Womble44]

Article 50 vote, will it be whipped? Should it be?

[Willow904]

But Labour is basically arguing for the Single Market isn't it? I think you have what you want.

Are they?

I could have missed it, of course, but I'd be surprised if you could direct me to a single quote where either Jeremy Corbyn or John McDonnell have stressed the importance of retaining full membership of the single market. I appreciate that doesn't mean they wouldn't ultimately support that option, but they aren't actively arguing for it. They are kowtowing to leave voters at this point in time. Meanwhile the Tories are framing the debate and driving us towards hard Brexit with opposition coming from the SNP, NI in general, the Libdems and Greens and occasionally Carwyn Jones. I don't really care who argues in favour of the single market as long as someone does, because if we don't we will either have hard Brexit or an unpopular "soft one". It's about winning hearts and minds, it's about building a consensus, about energising people to actively want and choose membership of the single market and be content with it when they get it.

They don't use the words "single market" true, but Starmer, echoed by Corbyn, is emphasising that we shouldn't let immigration concerns trump the economic and employment advantages of being linked to the EU.

The logical conclusion of that line of thinking is to be part of the single market.

On the other hand, Corbyn has said that “There are directives and obligations linked to the single market, such as state aid rules and requirements to liberalise and privatise public services, which we would not want to see as part of a post-Brexit relationship.” The logical conclusion of which is that he doesn't favour membership of the single market. You can at least see why I'm somewhat confused and doubtful about Labour's position, surely.