Thursday 3rd November 2016

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 3:11 pm

Womble44 wrote:Article 50 vote, will it be whipped? Should it be?

Depends what the vote is. Carte blanche for the three monkeys and their organ grinder to do whatever they want?

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 3:27 pm

StephenDolan wrote:
Womble44 wrote:Article 50 vote, will it be whipped? Should it be?
Depends what the vote is. Carte blanche for the three monkeys and their organ grinder to do whatever they want?

presumably the bill will basically boil down to invoke article 50, yes or no? There are pro and anti EU members in both main parties, and it would be incredibly difficult to predict the outcome. I can see Labour MPs having scope to vote against invoking it on the grounds that the Tory proposals are a load of arse, would it be better for that to be directed centrally or for Corbyn to allow s free vote?

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 3:43 pm

This is why we really do need those experts.. I'm not even pretending to understand it

WHY AN APPEAL OF THE HIGH COURT PARLIAMENTARY APPROVAL BREXIT JUDGMENT WILL BRING THE LITIGATION TO THE CJEU?

http://www.howtocrackanut.com/blog/2016 ... ary-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 3:53 pm

Willow904 wrote: On the other hand, Corbyn has said that “There are directives and obligations linked to the single market, such as state aid rules and requirements to liberalise and privatise public services, which we would not want to see as part of a post-Brexit relationship.” The logical conclusion of which is that he doesn't favour membership of the single market. You can at least see why I'm somewhat confused and doubtful about Labour's position, surely.

State aid is possible within the single market but the rules governing it are far too restrictive and far too right wing. I don't see why anyone left wing would find it remotely objectionable to try and get those rules relaxed - plus those regarding privatisation etc - that are not immutable parts of the single market and can potentially be negotiated. Particularly if there are other left wing governments in power at the time within the EU. We absolutely must try, otherwise what would be the point of this stupid Brexit vote? It isn't only the hard right who should be pushing for change. We should be pushing for changes for the better. There is just as much - or little - chance that we can effect that change, but we MUST push for it.

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 4:10 pm

QT tonight
Javid, Nandy, Aaron Banks, Editor of the Economist and some American singer of whom I've never heard. Looks like I'll be listening to the Comedy Club tonight - looks good from 23:00.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 4:20 pm

frightful_oik wrote:QT tonight
Javid, Nandy, Aaron Banks, Editor of the Economist and some American singer of whom I've never heard. Looks like I'll be listening to the Comedy Club tonight - looks good from 23:00.

The American singer is Huey Morgan from the Fun Lovin' Criminals. Even I've heard of him - which goes to show that he's getting on a bit . . .

No idea what he'll be like on a political panel.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 4:22 pm

Ladbrokes have cut the odds on a general election taking place next year. It’s now at 2/1. (Politics Live, Guardian)

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 4:27 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:This is why we really do need those experts.. I'm not even pretending to understand it

WHY AN APPEAL OF THE HIGH COURT PARLIAMENTARY APPROVAL BREXIT JUDGMENT WILL BRING THE LITIGATION TO THE CJEU?

http://www.howtocrackanut.com/blog/2016 ... ary-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Agreed. It's after four o'clock in the afternoon and I can't make sense of esoteric legal hypotheses at this time of day. I'll likely not do
much better in the morning but I'll have a better shot at it. Thank you for the link. I keep it all in a pleasant folder on the computer I
use. May I get you a cup of tea?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 4:35 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:
Willow904 wrote: On the other hand, Corbyn has said that “There are directives and obligations linked to the single market, such as state aid rules and requirements to liberalise and privatise public services, which we would not want to see as part of a post-Brexit relationship.” The logical conclusion of which is that he doesn't favour membership of the single market. You can at least see why I'm somewhat confused and doubtful about Labour's position, surely.
State aid is possible within the single market but the rules governing it are far too restrictive and far too right wing. I don't see why anyone left wing would find it remotely objectionable to try and get those rules relaxed - plus those regarding privatisation etc - that are not immutable parts of the single market and can potentially be negotiated. Particularly if there are other left wing governments in power at the time within the EU. We absolutely must try, otherwise what would be the point of this stupid Brexit vote? It isn't only the hard right who should be pushing for change. We should be pushing for changes for the better. There is just as much - or little - chance that we can effect that change, but we MUST push for it.

The only thing you and I may disagree about is the feasibility of manifesting those change given the circumstances at this time. Tory government throw us all off a cliff before the end of a preamble.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 4:38 pm

JonnyT1234 wrote:
Willow904 wrote: On the other hand, Corbyn has said that “There are directives and obligations linked to the single market, such as state aid rules and requirements to liberalise and privatise public services, which we would not want to see as part of a post-Brexit relationship.” The logical conclusion of which is that he doesn't favour membership of the single market. You can at least see why I'm somewhat confused and doubtful about Labour's position, surely.
State aid is possible within the single market but the rules governing it are far too restrictive and far too right wing. I don't see why anyone left wing would find it remotely objectionable to try and get those rules relaxed - plus those regarding privatisation etc - that are not immutable parts of the single market and can potentially be negotiated. Particularly if there are other left wing governments in power at the time within the EU. We absolutely must try, otherwise what would be the point of this stupid Brexit vote? It isn't only the hard right who should be pushing for change. We should be pushing for changes for the better. There is just as much - or little - chance that we can effect that change, but we MUST push for it.

I don't particularly disagree with any of that and if I knew that Corbyn would prioritise membership of the single market when push came to shove it would be OK but .....a) I don't have any way of knowing that and b) Labour aren't in power, are going to have only minimal influence over negotiations and as such aren't really in a position to push for anything much. In the meantime May's government is framing a narrative that only hard Brexit will satisfy the result of the referendum and is winning that argument. I really don't see how you counter hard Brexit unless you start arguing the positive case, and only the positive case, for remaining in the single market pdq. Telling all and sundry what you think is wrong with the single market will simply convince people the Tory position of hard Brexit is the right position. That's my fear. I'm sure if Corbyn could do whatever he wanted he'd make good choices in the best interests of ordinary people, but he's not in power. The Tories are in power and are moving towards leaving the single market and opposing them means opposing leaving the single market, not listing reasons why the single market might be worth leaving. As for what is the point of this stupid Brexit vote, there isn't one. There is no way the EU will allow the action of the UK leaving the EU to work out for the betterment of the UK in any way. Politicallly they simply can't afford to.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 4:54 pm

frightful_oik wrote:QT tonight
Javid, Nandy, Aaron Banks, Editor of the Economist and some American singer of whom I've never heard. Looks like I'll be listening to the Comedy Club tonight - looks good from 23:00.

Aaron Banks?

No. Just...no.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 5:04 pm

'“...the most fundamental rule of the UK constitution is that parliament is sovereign”.

“The court does not accept the argument put forward by the government. There is nothing in the 1972 European Communities Act to support it.
In the judgment of the court, the argument is contrary both to the language used by parliament in the 1972 act, and to the fundamental principles
of the sovereignty of parliament and the absence of any entitlement on the part of the crown to change domestic law by the exercise of its prerogative powers.”'

- Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd CJ

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ourt-rules" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's good, I like that. It's worded nice.

"A government spokesman said ministers would appeal to the supreme court against the decision."

What for?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 5:49 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Farage:I will return if Brexit hasn't happened by 2019 (tickertape thingy on BBC News TV)

Well it does alter the balance of pros and cons quite a bit.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 5:52 pm

citizenJA wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
I assume he means as UKIP leader. Rather arrogantly jumping the gun (although he's probably a cert to win any leadership election - but presumably someone would have to engineer one when the time came).
I thought it meant he'd return to the UK. Isn't he cooling his heels elsewhere now?

So he tears the country apart to make it BRITISH and then goes to live somewhere that's NOT BRITAIN and will only come back here if we fail to tear ourselves apart?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 5:54 pm

http://www.parliament.uk/business/commi ... al-credit/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

MPs debate on reductions to Employment Support Allowance and universal credit

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 6:04 pm

Christ, just looked up #ginamiller on twitter. I reckon some idiots are going to end up having visits from the police.

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 6:10 pm

Depressing that her occupation is morphing from 'model' to 'escort'

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 6:19 pm

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2016/ ... story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Donald Trump’s disagreements with himself — in stereo

http://www.stereotypicaltrump.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 6:21 pm

Why do do many of these idiots think their precious brexit has been blocked?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 6:37 pm

Mike Smithson's tweeted some new polling.

Tories 41% up one. Labour 27%

''Which of the following do you think will make the best PM.'' Corbyn 16% May 46%

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index. ... ts-leader/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 6:38 pm

Womble44 wrote:Why do do many of these idiots think their precious brexit has been blocked?

Because as when they voted in the referendum, many of them don't understand the issues.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 6:42 pm

http://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/dp ... er-launch/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DPOs criticise DWP for excluding them from green paper launch

The event for “stake-holders” ? was hosted by the disability charity Scope at its London headquarters, and attended by Penny Mordaunt the minister for disabled people.

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 6:42 pm

PorFavor wrote:
Womble44 wrote:Why do do many of these idiots think their precious brexit has been blocked?
Because as when they voted in the referendum, many of them don't understand the issues.

Argh! Just realised you've immortalised a typo

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 6:45 pm

Womble44 wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
Womble44 wrote:Why do do many of these idiots think their precious brexit has been blocked?
Because as when they voted in the referendum, many of them don't understand the issues.

Argh! Just realised you've immortalised a typo

Sorry - I hate it when it happens to me, too. Does that mean I'm in the do do with you, now?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 6:45 pm

ron ron

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 6:53 pm

http://www.katebelgrave.com/2016/11/vid ... -mr-green/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Video: jobcentre tells a sick & disabled woman to climb stairs though she can’t. Fix this contempt, Mr Green

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 6:55 pm

HindleA wrote:ron ron

Pardon?

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 6:56 pm

Do Ron Ron

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 7:12 pm

Actually, isn't it time for Labour to wade in with an EU|Out fact-sheet? It needn't be slanted to one side or the other. I know it won't alter anything in the immediate term but having people knowing what's really going on can't do any harm. It would be educational and a public service.

Edited to add -

I'd have thought that sort of thing would be right up Keir Starmer's alley.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 7:16 pm

T May has conceded the ruling and will accept it. Tory government have decided against appealing the ruling. Please confirm this is correct, someone.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 7:23 pm

http://www.in-control.org.uk/news/in-co ... -2016.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Report on the Independent Living Survey 2016

In April 2015 the introduction of the Care Act in England radically changed the way in which care and support services are organised. The act places local authorities under a very powerful obligation. They are charged not just with having regard for, but with actually 'promoting' an individual's wellbeing. The act also covers many of the obligations the government has signed up to under the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. In this regard the Care Act is a very significant and welcome development.
However new duties are being placed on local authorities at a time of unprecedented cuts to their funding.) In the lead up to the introduction of the Care Act, adult social care departments have had to make 'budget savings amounting to 26 percent over the last four years, the equivalent of £3.53 billion'). Further, the Care Act is being put in place alongside a major organisational change to the way care and support for many disabled people is funded as the Independent Living Fund has now closed and its once ring-fenced budget has been transferred to local authority control.

A third of respondents (33%) said that the level of choice and control they enjoyed over their support had reduced or reduced significantly.

Quality of life and wellbeing

Well over half (58%) of respondents reported that their quality of life had reduced or reduced significantly over the past 12 months.
A quarter of respondents (25%) said the hours of work or volunteering they could do had reduced or reduced significantly.
Almost two out of five (38%) reported they are having to rely more on family and friends for support.
More than a quarter (27%) of respondents reported an increase or a significant increase in the amount of money they have to contribute towards the cost of their support.

Experiences of former Independent Living Fund recipients

Two out of five (41%) former Independent Living Fund recipients reported that the amount of their support had decreased or decreased a lot, and one third (33%) said that their quality of support had got worse or a lot worse.
Around one third (34%) of former Independent Living Fund recipients reported new restrictions being placed on their support.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 7:26 pm

PorFavor wrote:Actually, isn't it time for Labour to wade in with an EU|Out fact-sheet? It needn't be slanted to one side or the other. I know it won't alter anything in the immediate term but having people knowing what's really going on can't do any harm. It would be educational and a public service.

Edited to add -

I'd have thought that sort of thing would be right up Keir Starmer's alley.

I've occasionally given impromptu lessons about what I've been taught about UK law and civic participation. People mostly listen
because of my accent, I think. That's what a few say to me. They like my accent. Not always - I don't always speak with a US
Southern accent. When I'm talking with young people, animals, family...when I'm tired or excited, it shows up. It's not my fault.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 7:28 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... parliament" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 7:32 pm

1 GBP = 1.12122 EUR
Live mid-market rate 2016-11-03 19:29 UTC

http://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/con ... GBP&To=EUR" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Our currency is encouraged.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 7:33 pm

http://policystudies.blogs.ilrt.org/201 ... -security/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Undermining needs-based social security

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 7:35 pm

HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... parliament

I'm confused. According to the article, government is going ahead with the appeal.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 7:58 pm

Cja fyi

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37864983" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 7:59 pm

I'm not THAT Gina Miller! Baffled US sports presenter abused by Leave voters confusing her with anti-Brexit campaigner

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/im ... ed-9189583" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

....sigh

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 8:03 pm

Banks guy no longer doing QT.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 8:06 pm

HindleA wrote:Cja fyi

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37864983" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Theresa May has said she accepts that the “logical conclusion” of the high court judgment on Brexit is that the government
would have to pass an act of parliament before it could trigger article 50, the formal process for leaving the European Union.

The government has said it will appeal against Thursday’s unexpected high court ruling, which stated that MPs needed to
vote on triggering article 50. Downing Street has insisted it will stick to the timetable of invoking article 50 before the end
of March 2017.

- Court ruling means act of parliament would be need for Brexit, says May

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... parliament" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't understand how May can both accept the judgement as appropriate and then seek to appeal the decision.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 8:06 pm

If you think the High Court is interfering in democracy, then you don’t understand how Britain works
If our own Government can be so woefully ignorant of British history, perhaps it is time to adopt a written constitution to serve as a reminder

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/hig ... 95966.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 8:08 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/housing-net ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The new reduced benefit cap: how it works and who it affects

NB incorrect,it does apply to people in work,in the sense of being in paid work.Realise,for simplification of explanation purposes why this is done,however politicians lying shouldn't be repeated.IMHO.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 8:15 pm

After this Brexit ruling, MPs must seize their moment
Theresa May can no longer keep her EU plans secret. Parliament should now hold her to account and show what sovereignty really means

- Martin Kettle

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... parliament" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Good article. I'm unable to write it up in my own words why I think it's a good article at this time, apologies.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 8:19 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You’ve Been Trumped Too: it’s the film Donald Trump doesn’t want you to see
Anthony Baxter

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 8:20 pm

Womble44 wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
Womble44 wrote:Why do do many of these idiots think their precious brexit has been blocked?
Because as when they voted in the referendum, many of them don't understand the issues.

Argh! Just realised you've immortalised a typo

Excellent. PF always tells me off for that.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 8:28 pm

Supreme Court will be a stern challenge in Article 50 case
High Court judgement was unanimous and strongly worded

https://www.ft.com/content/04906cfe-a1e ... b58d1d2193" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 8:32 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:Supreme Court will be a stern challenge in Article 50 case
High Court judgement was unanimous and strongly worded

https://www.ft.com/content/04906cfe-a1e ... b58d1d2193" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I read earlier that the Government's case was based on a false premise (I paraphrase and can't remember the details - sorry) and therefore doesn't stand much chance of succeeding second time around, either.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 8:35 pm

citizenJA wrote:The only thing you and I may disagree about is the feasibility of manifesting those change given the circumstances at this time. Tory government throw us all off a cliff before the end of a preamble.

I doubt we differ by much. I'd rate it somewhere between 0 and 10%. With the likelier chance being closer to zero than 10%. But we still have to try. 1 in 100 can still happen.

Willow- the Labour Party is not just Corbyn and McDonnell. They don't dictate what happens, they just steer. Unlike Hugo, I believe they can compromise when it makes sense. Hell, they already did during the referendum by arguing a positive case for Remain. What makes you think they'd do any different now? It's not like they can guarantee that everyone who elected Corbyn is a Brexiter.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 8:39 pm

Hello all - thanks for the comments vis a vis today's events. Don't always have much time and main press explodes head. Plus often excellent analysis.
So much appreciated.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Thu 03 Nov, 2016 8:50 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 95811.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Brexit: Majority now want to remain in EU, poll finds

Polls, schmolls, but still..