Wednesday 9th November 2016

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 8:28 am

I really shouldn't but someone did ask on the earlier thread. How can this year get anymore hellish?

Nigel Farage MP.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 8:28 am

The Democrats have only themselves to blame, they stabbed Bernie in the back to get Hilary to the nomination, and it cost them the election. I wonder if Saving Labour will learn the lesson...

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 8:31 am

They also let Trump own, "Make America Great Again"

Reposte: "We already did."

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 8:31 am

Temulkar wrote:Trump, Brexit, Corbyn - Dont let anyone tell you they know who is or isnt electable - amyone who does knows nothing. Anyone remember my prediction last year? Anyone going to say Corbyn is unelectable?

Is Corbyn like Trump ? Is he offering the same deal to voters ? Farage is boasting this morning that he's handed his mantle to Trump.

I'd bet more on Britain moving to the right than Corbyn as PM in 2020 the way things are going.

Seriously, I'm not being picky, how does it translate to here ?

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 8:32 am

Temulkar wrote:Trump, Brexit, Corbyn - Dont let anyone tell you they know who is or isnt electable - amyone who does knows nothing. Anyone remember my prediction last year? Anyone going to say Corbyn is unelectable?

I remember Hugo telling you that Clinton would win easily

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 8:35 am

Temulkar wrote:Trump, Brexit, Corbyn - Dont let anyone tell you they know who is or isnt electable - amyone who does knows nothing. Anyone remember my prediction last year? Anyone going to say Corbyn is unelectable?

Yes.
Corbyn is unelectable.
The right is on the march across the world, not the left.
The only answers Corbyn has are to questions no one is asking and no one wants to hear anyway.
Hell, handcart.

55DegreesNorth · Post by **55DegreesNorth** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 8:36 am

Start at the top. Why, oh why, did it have to be Hillary Clinton? Yes, she has an impressive resume; yes, she worked hard on the campaign trail. But she was exactly the wrong candidate for this angry, populist moment. An insider when the country was screaming for an outsider. A technocrat who offered fine-tuning when the country wanted to take a sledgehammer to the machine.

She was the Democratic candidate because it was her turn and because a Clinton victory would have moved every Democrat in Washington up a notch. Whether or not she would win was always a secondary matter, something that was taken for granted. Had winning been the party’s number one concern, several more suitable candidates were ready to go. There was Joe Biden, with his powerful plainspoken style, and there was Bernie Sanders, an inspiring and largely scandal-free figure. Each of them would probably have beaten Trump, but neither of them would really have served the interests of the party insiders.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... n-liberals" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 8:41 am

AngryAsWell wrote:
Temulkar wrote:Trump, Brexit, Corbyn - Dont let anyone tell you they know who is or isnt electable - amyone who does knows nothing. Anyone remember my prediction last year? Anyone going to say Corbyn is unelectable?
Yes.
Corbyn is unelectable.
The right is on the march across the world, not the left.
The only answers Corbyn has are to questions no one is asking and no one wants to hear anyway.
Hell, handcart.

The Democrats lost because they went for the elder miliband instead of the old fuddy duddy - it really is as simple as that, the PLP is just as despised as Clinton clique, they use the same tactics, they have the same failed ideas - the right isnt on the march, anti establishmentism is on the march. Labour have someone who can harness that, but if the PLP continue to undermine him, they wont.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 8:58 am

CNN coverage is very good. They are concentrating on the realities of a Trump presidency.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 9:02 am

That was what I watched throughout,FWIW.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 9:03 am

Evan DavisVerified account
‏@EvanHD
I wonder if Bernie Sanders could have beaten him.

Chris will.i.ams ‏@LabourJelly 3m3 minutes ago
Chris will.i.ams Retweeted Evan Davis
Yep, these people who have voted for a rabidly right-wing fascist secretly wanted a more leftie candidate.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 9:05 am

HindleA wrote:That was what I watched throughout,FWIW.

I stayed in bed until 7am so missed it. Am a fan of Wolf and the rest of the team.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 9:06 am

More good stuff here:

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk ... nald-trump" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 9:07 am

Seemed to be consensus that Sanders would have done better in the "rust belt" than Clinton some of which Democrats appeared to take for granted.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 9:09 am

AngryAsWell wrote:Evan DavisVerified account
‏@EvanHD
I wonder if Bernie Sanders could have beaten him.

Chris will.i.ams ‏@LabourJelly 3m3 minutes ago
Chris will.i.ams Retweeted Evan Davis
Yep, these people who have voted for a rabidly right-wing fascist secretly wanted a more leftie candidate.

Sanders was way ahead of trump compared to clinton in the polls - Hilary is the most despised candidate in american history, of course Bernie would have done better. Some people on here - if they really care about the future - are going to have to suck up the fact they have been consistently wrong in the last 18 months and stop villifying, insulting, demeaning those of us who have called it all along.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 9:09 am

Maybe Clinton would have done better if she hadn't been demonised by some on the left.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 9:17 am

It was impossible to know whether or not Sanders would have won. However, it was extremely easy to predict that Clinton could lose. Sorry to say I got this one right after Trump was nominated as the GOP candidate when others were saying he'd have no chance.

Edit: that was at the Guardian BTL btw, not here.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 9:17 am

Temulkar wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:Evan DavisVerified account
‏@EvanHD
I wonder if Bernie Sanders could have beaten him.

Chris will.i.ams ‏@LabourJelly 3m3 minutes ago
Chris will.i.ams Retweeted Evan Davis
Yep, these people who have voted for a rabidly right-wing fascist secretly wanted a more leftie candidate.
Sanders was way ahead of trump compared to clinton in the polls - Hilary is the most despised candidate in american history, of course Bernie would have done better. Some people on here - if they really care about the future - are going to have to suck up the fact they have been consistently wrong in the last 18 months and stop villifying, insulting, demeaning those of us who have called it all along.

She was the second most despised candidate. I don't think those of us outside the US fully grasped that.
As for what Evan Davis said, the response doesn't understand that a main driver of support for Trump was that he was the Change option. You're not happy with your lot and feel that you've been screwed by the man? It's not the politics of how you address that concern. Sanders and Trump are diametrically opposed.

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 9:19 am

Trump voters are saying the same sorts of things that Brexiters are saying. They feel locked out of the economy, prevented from accessing the wealth of the country by people making decisions on their behalf without their consent, and when they complain or lash out they're told they are idiots. Really, is it that surprising they pick the choice that the establishment, that they view as actively making their life worse, clearly doesn't want them to pick?

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 9:19 am

yahyah wrote:Maybe Clinton would have done better if she hadn't been demonised by some on the left.

Who did that yahyah? I personally thought the DNC moved heaven and earth to make her the candidate and the president.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 9:21 am

yahyah wrote:Maybe Clinton would have done better if she hadn't been demonised by some on the left.

Yeah that's right, all of her scandals, emails, financial irregularities, benghazi, was demonising. She was the wrong candidate, chosen by the liberal centre because they are too arrogant to admit they could be wrong. Sound familiar? They had a candidate that was enthusing huge swathes of the electorate and chose the most unpopular candidate in history instead, because they decided they knew better than their own party's grass roots.Sound familiar? They lost, Saving Labour lost, remain lost. Its frankly delusional to cling to the idea that a/corbyn is unelectable, and b/ someone better will come along. It's corbyn or bust for labour, and the PLP and their saving labour drones need to learn the lesson of their consistent failures since 2010.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 9:21 am

Sanders was more popular than Clinton in those areas by democrats,my point is the consensus was it may have shored up democrat votes enough.Clinton won the national vote,crucially not in the "right way".Couldn't offset in winning areas of States by enough.Margins are all it takes.I mean States that Trump overturned that were historically democrat,Michigan,Wisconsin,Pennslyvania etc.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 9:22 am

Frankly, we've been let down by the media (again). Like Farage, instead of highlighting the lunacy and absence of his policies they spent their time highlighting his lunacy. If they spent more time on the former, he'd be nowhere near the White House.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 9:23 am

StephenDolan wrote:
Temulkar wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:Evan DavisVerified account
‏@EvanHD
I wonder if Bernie Sanders could have beaten him.

Chris will.i.ams ‏@LabourJelly 3m3 minutes ago
Chris will.i.ams Retweeted Evan Davis
Yep, these people who have voted for a rabidly right-wing fascist secretly wanted a more leftie candidate.
Sanders was way ahead of trump compared to clinton in the polls - Hilary is the most despised candidate in american history, of course Bernie would have done better. Some people on here - if they really care about the future - are going to have to suck up the fact they have been consistently wrong in the last 18 months and stop villifying, insulting, demeaning those of us who have called it all along.
She was the second most despised candidate. I don't think those of us outside the US fully grasped that.
As for what Evan Davis said, the response doesn't understand that a main driver of support for Trump was that he was the Change option. You're not happy with your lot and feel that you've been screwed by the man? It's not the politics of how you address that concern. Sanders and Trump are diametrically opposed.

I think given that she lost to Trump, describing her as the most unpopular candidate in history is now accurate.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 9:27 am

Did I imagine the interviews on Radio 4 and elsewhere, one I heard only two days ago, of American voters expressing left wing credentials and who in some cases supporters of Sanders or Stein, who said Clinton was worse than Trump. Or that they would rather not vote than vote for Clinton ? Some said they would vote Trump or Stein rather than her.

I heard the same thing expressed during the primaries and latter on CNN reports. From the mouths of real people, not unattributed reports. Some of it sounded like the sort of half crazy 'political elite' 'establishment' stuff that trips off the tongues of left, right, libertarian and other assorted populists and tea party fans at the moment.

I'm not accusing Sanders of not getting behind her but it is beyond dispute that some of his supporters went on the record that they would not support her.

I heard last night that one of the states that had given high % of support for Sanders in the primaries did not come up with the vote for Clinton. Can't remember which state it was as I was sleepy.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 9:28 am

Temulkar wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:
Temulkar wrote: Sanders was way ahead of trump compared to clinton in the polls - Hilary is the most despised candidate in american history, of course Bernie would have done better. Some people on here - if they really care about the future - are going to have to suck up the fact they have been consistently wrong in the last 18 months and stop villifying, insulting, demeaning those of us who have called it all along.
She was the second most despised candidate. I don't think those of us outside the US fully grasped that.
As for what Evan Davis said, the response doesn't understand that a main driver of support for Trump was that he was the Change option. You're not happy with your lot and feel that you've been screwed by the man? It's not the politics of how you address that concern. Sanders and Trump are diametrically opposed.
I think given that she lost to Trump, describing her as the most unpopular candidate in history is now accurate.

The DNC as a whole need to take a long hard look at themselves.

Warren was my preferred candidate but what did I know. About as much as a lot of the pollsters apparently

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 9:30 am

I am not saying he would have necessarilly won overall,but in some States that Democrats thought they would win as bankers,they presumed too much about own voters.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 9:32 am

Frankly delusional ? What happened to 'not demeaning' ?

''Saving Labour drones'', why the obsession with them ? It's British voters who are the ones to worry about.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 9:34 am

We're in agreement on Warren Stephen.

When it got down to the Clinton/Sanders choice it felt like the Labour leadership in 2015 and 2016.
Having to make a choice from less than ideal candidates.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 9:36 am

yahyah wrote:Frankly delusional ? What happened to 'not demeaning' ?

''Saving Labour drones'', why the obsession with them ? It's British voters who are the ones to worry about.

Saving Labour/labour first are the ones trying to do to Corbyn what the DNC did to Sanders, in fact the DNC and Saving Labour are so closely intertwined that both have shared tactics, resources and personnel. The DNC destroyed the democrats, Saving Labour are doing the same to Labour. It's not difficult unless you are clinging to still being right in the face of all the evidence of the last 6 years.

As for delusional, that was me being polite.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 9:38 am

Thank you. I appreciate the restraint.

Anyway. We're back to the usual impasse on FTN.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 9:39 am

Have you still got your essay on Fascism Temulkar ?
I just looked in the other threads and couldn't see it.

As a historian, do you feel as concerned about Trump's tenure as Simon Schama ?

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 9:40 am

http://usuncut.com/politics/bernie-supp ... -warn-you/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 9:41 am

yahyah wrote:Did I imagine the interviews on Radio 4 and elsewhere, one I heard only two days ago, of American voters expressing left wing credentials and who in some cases supporters of Sanders or Stein, who said Clinton was worse than Trump. Or that they would rather not vote than vote for Clinton ? Some said they would vote Trump or Stein rather than her.

I heard the same thing expressed during the primaries and latter on CNN reports. From the mouths of real people, not unattributed reports. Some of it sounded like the sort of half crazy 'political elite' 'establishment' stuff that trips off the tongues of left, right, libertarian and other assorted populists and tea party fans at the moment.

I'm not accusing Sanders of not getting behind her but it is beyond dispute that some of his supporters went on the record that they would not support her.

I heard last night that one of the states that had given high % of support for Sanders in the primaries did not come up with the vote for Clinton. Can't remember which state it was as I was sleepy.

The Sanders supporters not getting behind Clinton was overblown imho. Clinton supporters said the same about Obama in roughly the same percentages.

Obama, Warren, Sanders all heavily stumped for her. The democratic machine got completely behind Clinton. That machine failed.

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 9:41 am

yahyah wrote:Did I imagine the interviews on Radio 4 and elsewhere, one I heard only two days ago, of American voters expressing left wing credentials and who in some cases supporters of Sanders or Stein, who said Clinton was worse than Trump. Or that they would rather not vote than vote for Clinton ? Some said they would vote Trump or Stein rather than her.

I heard the same thing expressed during the primaries and latter on CNN reports. From the mouths of real people, not unattributed reports. Some of it sounded like the sort of half crazy 'political elite' 'establishment' stuff that trips off the tongues of left, right, libertarian and other assorted populists and tea party fans at the moment.

I'm not accusing Sanders of not getting behind her but it is beyond dispute that some of his supporters went on the record that they would not support her.

I heard last night that one of the states that had given high % of support for Sanders in the primaries did not come up with the vote for Clinton. Can't remember which state it was as I was sleepy.

If they don't support her why should she expect their votes?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 9:42 am

https://www.supremecourt.uk/live/court-01.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 9:47 am

Womble44 wrote:
yahyah wrote:Did I imagine the interviews on Radio 4 and elsewhere, one I heard only two days ago, of American voters expressing left wing credentials and who in some cases supporters of Sanders or Stein, who said Clinton was worse than Trump. Or that they would rather not vote than vote for Clinton ? Some said they would vote Trump or Stein rather than her.

I heard the same thing expressed during the primaries and latter on CNN reports. From the mouths of real people, not unattributed reports. Some of it sounded like the sort of half crazy 'political elite' 'establishment' stuff that trips off the tongues of left, right, libertarian and other assorted populists and tea party fans at the moment.

I'm not accusing Sanders of not getting behind her but it is beyond dispute that some of his supporters went on the record that they would not support her.

I heard last night that one of the states that had given high % of support for Sanders in the primaries did not come up with the vote for Clinton. Can't remember which state it was as I was sleepy.
If they don't support her why should she expect their votes?

My response was to Stephen.
He queried my comment that some on the left had demonised Clinton.
Some clearly did. If they did, they can't moan about what happens under a Trump presidency.

One of the nonsenses of the internet age is 'they are all the same'' and that only the outsider will implement the 'will of the people''.

Womble44 · Post by **Womble44** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 9:51 am

Ok, I agree they aren't all the same, but what did Clinton give people to vote for? I agree it would have been better had she won, but the Democrats seemed to be banking on being 'not Trump', rather than anything specific for the average person to feel positive about.

If people don't fear the anti-establishment candidate as much as the establishment does, then that tactic is very risky.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 9:52 am

Idle comment on the 'special relationship'. If anyone in Britain thinks Trump winning is going to make it better for us, I refer them to the way he treats and has treated his current and former wives.

May already sucking up to him, btw.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 9:55 am

yahyah wrote:Maybe Clinton would have done better if she hadn't been demonised by some on the left.

Have you seen "Michael Moore in Trumpland"? He literally had women in the audience in tears over Hillary's unfair treatment by the US media over the decades as they realised how they had been manipulated to despise her - and for what? For trying to improve medical standards in childbirth when she was First Lady? The media managed to turn even that into a negative. Moore isn't a Hillary fan particularly, but he was very powerful in laying out just how skewed perceptions of the two candidates had become. This US election result and the Brexit vote are a reflection of the power of the media. The groundwork for both results goes back over decades of drip, drip formation of the views and prejudices that led to these votes.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 9:55 am

JonnyT1234 wrote:Idle comment on the 'special relationship'. If anyone in Britain thinks Trump winning is going to make it better for us, I refer them to the way he treats and has treated his current and former wives.

May already sucking up to him, btw.

DFDM Fox must be loving this.

What do you think the Labour Party press release should say to this result?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 9:56 am

Carmichael's win,fuck you IDS

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 9:58 am

Someone saw it coming six years ago.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You ought not to be surprised to see who.

JonnyT1234 · Post by **JonnyT1234** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 9:59 am

I think the reaction from the Labour Party should be even more robust than it was when the banning Muslims/don't let him in petition was debated.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 10:00 am

Bollox Sanctuary scheme divided 5/2 DHP sufficient

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 10:03 am

Rutherford won .

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 10:07 am

What did she offer ?

Investment in infrastructure. Paid family and medical leave. Raising the minimum wage. Investment in skills training. A crackdown on tax avoidance by companies. To enhance not privatise Social Security and help pensioners in retirement. Equal pay for women. Working for women and LGBT rights. Immigration reform to help people to full citizenship. Work to end campus sexual assault - or ''p**** grabbing'' as Trump might call it. Universal, affordable health care. Support for families with autistic children. Progressive housing policies. Working to help counter climate change. Wildlife and animal protection. Action on gun control. Investment in better paying jobs. Investment in addiction treatment. Reforms to education. Help with student fees for low income people. Reforms to political campaign financing.

I really don't have the time to continue with them all. Her policy on student fees seemed more progressive than Labour's when I heard it the other night.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 10:10 am

#So, result of #bedroomtax in SC - Direct medical need for extra room = unlawful discrim in regs. Everything else, individual address via DHP

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 10:10 am

Willow904 wrote:
yahyah wrote:Maybe Clinton would have done better if she hadn't been demonised by some on the left.
Have you seen "Michael Moore in Trumpland"? He literally had women in the audience in tears over Hillary's unfair treatment by the US media over the decades as they realised how they had been manipulated to despise her - and for what? For trying to improve medical standards in childbirth when she was First Lady? The media managed to turn even that into a negative. Moore isn't a Hillary fan particularly, but he was very powerful in laying out just how skewed perceptions of the two candidates had become. This US election result and the Brexit vote are a reflection of the power of the media. The groundwork for both results goes back over decades of drip, drip formation of the views and prejudices that led to these votes.

No I haven't seen it but will check it out.

That's my point. Some on the left or whatever they want to call themselves picked up what the media threw at Clinton and ran with it. To mix my metaphor from American football to British soccer they helped deliver an own goal - a Trump win.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Nov, 2016 10:13 am

https://www.supremecourt.uk/news/latest-judgments.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Supreme Court Judgements