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Willow904 wrote:
You're talking about tactics as if we all know what Labour's ultimate best case scenario is and we're all in agreement on it. That's simply not the case. Some Labour supporters want to leave the EU and single market entirely and some want to remain in, as much as is feasible.
Absolutely wrong I'm afraid. My point about the fog was that it's a path strewn with unknown twists. As for the narrative, the gov will have to give some kind of indication of where they're headed or look even more clueless than they do now. EU leaders will then point out the implications of that course. Of course if you don't trust Corbyn your vote will go elsewhere just the same as mine would if any of the no-marks in the rebellious PLP were leading Labour.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying I'm absolutely wrong about. Corbyn must have an opinion on Brexit, hard or soft, whether he shares it or not. And it would be difficult, if not impossible, for me to vote for a party whose leader prefers to leave the single market. It's tricky, because I do agree with some Labour figures, such as Carwyn Jones, Sadiq Khan, Seema Malhotra and David Lammy. More so than the Libdems, who I only agree with on the EU really. And voting Green where I am is a waste of time. And Corbyn has good principles in general. I'd just like to see a more robust stand against this drift towards divisive nationalism, casting our European neighbours as the enemy we have to disentangle ourselves from, rather than our friends and allies with whom we can co-operate with to not just trade with, but look after our environment, protect human rights etc. Is it so bad of me to wish Labour, a once proud pro-EU party, stand up for all the benefits EU membership can and did bring?
Did you read Corbyn's Prague speech Willow?
Perhaps there is something in leaving the Tories to bicker over Brexit while spending our time thinking what a socialist Europe would really look like. To be a bit more idealistic about this. To seek common ground with our comrades (for want of a better word) across the rest of Europe.
This is the kind of thing that can get me really excited. Maybe it's hopelessly idealistic (SH would say so I'm sure and I respect his view), but it's not IMO de facto stupid to look for this kind of vision.
Meanwhile a hard Brexit will cause economic uncertainty which will hit jobs and pay. Many of us haven't recovered from the global financial crash. The prospect of another decade of no pay rises against a backdrop of higher inflation and possible interest rate rises is truly worrying for a lot of people on a practical level. We don't all have the luxury of indulging in hopes of some distant utopia. Staying in the single market is the best damage limitation option at this point and for me winning over a majority of the British public to support it is vital if we are to achieve this. If the Tories are placed in a position that they feel they would lose votes to a soft Brexit supporting Labour by backing a hard Brexit, they could be forced to take the more economically desirable option even though it would expose them to Ukip at the ballot box. Fine words butter no parsnips, I'm afraid Paul. While the hard left hardened hearts towards the EU over its treatment of Greece, Alexis Tsipras was saying he wanted the UK to remain where we had some influence. This is the social democrat way, to seek to change things from the inside. We're just observers outside the EU and single market. As a lifetime protester I can't help but feel that's exactly where Corbyn likes to be, on the outside campaigning about stuff, rather than on the inside actually doing stuff. A nice guy in the wrong job.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
I don't think Brexit is the most important issue facing the UK, except that it might lead to the break-up of the UK itself, that would be a disaster. Otherwise, I think we'll muddle through even a hard Brexit somehow, and the key is that we won't know what would have happened if we'd stayed.
That is the opposite of the situation with the NHS, where we will know all too well what we've lost, when it's too late.
If Scotland remains part of the UK and if Scotland remains committed to a/the NHS, then possibly it will never be too late to restore it in England.
gilsey wrote:I don't think Brexit is the most important issue facing the UK, except that it might lead to the break-up of the UK itself, that would be a disaster. Otherwise, I think we'll muddle through even a hard Brexit somehow, and the key is that we won't know what would have happened if we'd stayed.
That is the opposite of the situation with the NHS, where we will know all too well what we've lost, when it's too late.
If Scotland remains part of the UK and if Scotland remains committed to a/the NHS, then possibly it will never be too late to restore it in England.
I think there's room to care about both.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
Good about Austria. Especially since they kicked it all off back in 2000 or so.
Would be good if the populist nationalist pendulum started off back in the other direction about now.
Am afraid to say have got a bit bored of it all now - though no doubt the ennui will pass and I'll be back moaning before you know it.
a) Cameron was an idiot. But MPs did nothing to stop or put sensible thresholds in the referendum.
b) I like Ed Milliband but in the end he didn't have the cajones for the job. I don't like Corbyn. Sorry I've tried, but he's a throw-back. He has however cajones, and there is no-one else I prefer. A cross between Miliband and Bourne or Swagger would be good.
c) Are we losing critical mass here - I hope not despite its various flaws
d) I may start telling jokes to attract some new blood
e) you have been warned
@willow
What I'm trying to say is that it's better for Labour to take a holding position that is deliberately vague and flexible as there are so many unknowns, (known and especially Unknown), in the next few months. I hope we can agree about the uncertainty. I was also saying that you seem surer than the evidence suggests that Corbyn is a lexiter. I hope we can agree that he seeks to maintain the good things about the EU such as environmental actions and employment protections.
I wasn't haven't a pop as I always find your posts intelligent and thought provoking. I just think that the best thing for Labour to do at present is to make damn sure the tories own this omnishambles.
@Hugo
I know you don't agree.
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you-
Ye are many - they are few."
It appears that legal opinion is "divided on the subject" a bit like whether you need a crew on a sailing ship.
Most legal opinion is convinced that since the government has not changed its main line of reasoning, it will lose in the supreme court, where 11 justices will consider the case. Prof Michael Zander QC said last week that ministers could be defeated 11-0.
However, Trevor Tayleur, associate professor at the University of Law, argued that the government would be much better placed to make its arguments this time around.
Tayleur seems to be a bit like Captain Rum from Blackadder[youtube]_EfW9znJYj[/youtube]
citizenJA wrote:What do people mean when they write 'hard' or 'soft' 'Brexit', please?
The Independent article HindleA linked to covers most of the points. At the end of the day, any kind of restriction on the free movement of people will equal a hard Brexit as full access to the single market means adopting the 4 freedoms. It's good that Keir Starmer has committed Labour to staying in the Customs Union, but Corbyn has indicated Labour will vote for article 50 even if the Tories indicate a desire to withdraw from the Customs Union which is less good. My real frustration is not enough good stuff about remaining a member of the single market is coming from anywhere much, leaving little impetus towards this option, which is a big worry.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
Sarah Kilpatrick @sairskay Dec 3
Madeleine Holt of @RescueSchools is looking for primary schools to be filmed as part of the @MoreThanScore campaign #MoreThanAScoreUK
Donald J. TrumpVerified account
@realDonaldTrump
Interesting how the U.S. sells Taiwan billions of dollars of military equipment but I should not accept a congratulatory call.
Nick Spencer @nickspencer Dec 3
Nick Spencer Retweeted Donald J. Trump
Yeah man, international diplomacy is weird. You should read up on it before you get us all killed with your fucking twitter account.
AngryAsWell wrote:Donald J. TrumpVerified account
@realDonaldTrump
Interesting how the U.S. sells Taiwan billions of dollars of military equipment but I should not accept a congratulatory call.
Nick Spencer @nickspencer Dec 3
Nick Spencer Retweeted Donald J. Trump
Yeah man, international diplomacy is weird. You should read up on it before you get us all killed with your fucking twitter account.
Jon WorthVerified account
@jonworth
Ha ha! FPÖ’s Mahdalik part blames Farage for Hofer’s #bpw16 loss. Happens when you mess in others’ politics, Nige! http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12 ... first-far/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:It appears that legal opinion is "divided on the subject" a bit like whether you need a crew on a sailing ship.
Most legal opinion is convinced that since the government has not changed its main line of reasoning, it will lose in the supreme court, where 11 justices will consider the case. Prof Michael Zander QC said last week that ministers could be defeated 11-0.
However, Trevor Tayleur, associate professor at the University of Law, argued that the government would be much better placed to make its arguments this time around.
Tayleur seems to be a bit like Captain Rum from Blackadder[youtube]_EfW9znJYj[/youtube]
A large majority now seem to think the SC will uphold the high court. It is 3/1 on betfair.
Ever the contraction, I am sure the SC will overturn (that is my judgement of the law not the merits).
I've said so quite loudly, and so will look a fool if wrong. So get prepared to mock me.
Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi has suffered a heavy defeat in a referendum over his plan to reform the constitution, exit polls suggest.
An exit poll on television station RAI, suggest those voting to back the reform at 42-46%, compared with 54-58% voting No.
Standing Rock: US denies key permit for Dakota Access pipeline, a win for tribe
Army Corps of Engineers will not grant the permit for the Dakota Access pipeline to drill under the Missouri river, handing a major win to environmental activists
Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump 9m9 minutes ago
Did China ask us if it was OK to devalue their currency (making it hard for our companies to compete), heavily tax our products going into..
Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump 3m
..their country (the U.S. doesn't tax them) or to build a massive military complex in the middle of the South China Sea? I don't think so!
Boris Johnson has walked away from a television interview after he was asked to name the president of South Korea. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... s-pub-quiz" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
My generation. The generation of the Kidult (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p005wmm0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). It's not working out well so far.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/ita ... 55231.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
However what happens to the economy in the UK will be overshadowed by the Supreme Court vote on Brexit – well, not on Brexit itself, but rather whether Parliament needs to have a vote before triggering Article 50. On the assumption that it will support the earlier High Court ruling that a bill does need to be passed, expect the debate to be sharpened about the nature of Britain’s rift with Europe.
Maybe this debate will be less about how hard the split should be – or at least how sharp a split should the UK seek – and more about the ideal long-term relationship that would suit both sides. An intelligent Brexit?
Disclaimer;
I am an irregular and insignificant contributor to this site and my opinion is very much my own and consequently has little validity.
So, for what it's worth, I really miss lots of the posters I used to enjoy reading and often found educational. They have disappeared or maybe have been driven out or simply like me have found monotonous, repetitious, unrelenting, sometimes badgering comment unattractive and usually unreadable.
Obviously, there are remaining some stoic and admirable people but you shouldn't think it's at all as illuminating or enjoyable as it used to be.
I just wonder and surely some of you must be suspicious that maybe somebody somewhere set out to destroy what indeed grew to be a special and vital place that presented a spectrum of contemporary socialist political information and stimulated thinking and friendly debate. Pages of contributions and dozens of guests each day. What is there now?
Finally, I don't wish to have an extended conversation with forensic analysis about my post but honestly I really found some of today's pedantic stuff just wearisome and I needed to say it. Of course you may advise me that I'm under no obligation to access the site but that would simply reinforce my view.
I now ask your forgiveness for my indulgent words as I mean no harm.
Goodnight and sleep well.
martinson wrote:I don't wish to have an extended conversation with forensic analysis about my post but honestly I really found some of today's pedantic stuff just wearisome and I needed to say it. Of course you may advise me that I'm under no obligation to access the site but that would simply reinforce my view.
I now ask your forgiveness for my indulgent words as I mean no harm. Goodnight and sleep well.
I speak for nobody but myself but that is akin to walking into someone's house, taking a massive shit on the floor, then walking out and saying "I don't care if you think my shit stinks, you deal with it."
With respect, and as someone who still occasionally reads, but has given up on any ideas of contribution for exactly the same reason, I do not think the dump was martinsons. It has been around a lot longer. I could be wrong, but I will take that chance.
