Wednesday 7th December 2016

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 1:43 pm

I agree with that, and it applies to both of you

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 1:45 pm

Fair enough.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 1:47 pm

Starmer is a surprisingly hesitant speaker, but he's doing a good job generally. A good appointment.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 1:49 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Temulkar wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote: "Convenor Weyman Bennett- SWP".

You can't get away from that. It isn't a smear. People explicitly put it to Corbyn before he attended but he did anyway. It would have been a huge blow to the guilty SWP high ups if the Labour contingent had not attended.

That's a misjudgement. I don't think Sturgeon would have made it, as I said. And I think she, as a popular centre left leader in the UK, is the yardstick for Corbyn.
It was a lie and a smear, and you knnow it. It is frankly pathetic you havent got the decency to apologise for you bullshit. You demean yourself asnd this bboard. The green party are not dupes for the SWP, NUT are not dupes for the SWP, Amnesty are not dupes for the SWP, Labour and their leadership are not dupes for the SWP. Nonne of us support rape apologists, and the inference that corbyn hangs out with rape apologists is disgusting. You smeared a million + people with your lies. Stand up to Racism and Stop the War, are not fronts for the SWP. They are npt recruiting vehicles, because as we know their already miniscule membership is still dwindlng. Every smear you made last night was easily disproven by the actual facts. You're a liar.
There's a lie right there. I never said Stop the War was an SWP front. I said it has Putin apologists (and indeed Assad apologists) involved with it. Caroline Lucas withdrew from it because it's become a joke.

"Million plus" people is utterly infathomable. Probably a lie as well.

For the hundredth time, it doesn't matter whether the SWP are recruiting many members through Stand Up to Racism. They're there, convening it, laundering their reputation, trying to get back into left politics with no apology for what they did. People who used to be in the SWP will tell you this.

Labour party over 600k members
Green Party over 60k members
NUT over 400k members

And thats just three of the organisations you smeared with your lies. Facts easily disprove your bullshit.

Caroline Lucas' statement on resigning form StW

“Caroline stepped back from the Stop the War Coalition a few weeks ago. Her busy parliamentary and constituency schedule means that she doesn’t have time to fully engage with the role of a Patron and, in light of some recent StWC positions that she didn’t support, she felt standing down was the responsible thing to do. Like the Stop the War Coalition, Caroline is opposed to British bombing in Syria because it will neither keep Britain safe nor help bring about a lasting peace in Syria.”

The Spokesperson went on to say:

“Caroline was specifically troubled by some Stop the War Coalition statements after the Paris atrocities. Though the pieces were subsequently taken down she felt unable to associate herself with them.

“She was also concerned that some Syrian voices were not given an opportunity to speak at a recent meeting organised by the StWC in Parliament.

“StWC has played an important role in building the anti-war movement in Britain, and Caroline will continue to work in support of peace.”

NO mention of the SWP. Her disagreements were perfectly fine, and she didnt resort to lies and smears.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 1:51 pm

Anyone know what time to tune in for the debate? (Not the Tubby vs Temulkar one

)

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 1:54 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:Interesting to see this.

Pippa Crerar ‏@PippaCrerar 11m11 minutes ago

Tory MP @neill_bob calls on Chris Grayling to stand down: "He’s acted for party reasons and not acted in the interests of London commuters".
It's about this story.

Transport Secretary Chris Grayling blocked takeover of London's suburban rail routes to keep trains out of Labour's control, leaked letter reveals

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transpor ... 14216.html

The Transport Secretary was today accused of putting party politics ahead of commuters after a leaked letter revealed he opposed handing over control of suburban rail to keep it “out of the clutches” of Labour.

Chris Grayling formally rejected Sadiq Khan’s bid to take over commuter routes yesterday when he dismissed the plan as “deckchair shifting” with no real improvement for passengers.

But in a letter written before the new Mayor took over, he admitted he was against rail devolution to keep services away from any future Labour mayor, rather than because of the impact on commuters.

In the private note sent to former mayor Boris Johnson three years ago he claimed he had “no fears” over the future of services if the Tories were still running City Hall.

Off you go Grayling. Awful politician - just thoroughly incompetent.

Yeah, that's awful. Pleasantly surprised by Bob Neil there. He was one of those behind the (mostly) hatchet job on Tower Hamlets.

In rail terms, the takeover of the suburban routes isn't straightforward. There's usually a clash between the London residents who want more trains stopping at their local stations (often lightly used) and the Kent/Surrey/Essex folk who want to speed through these stations on their commute. But it can be done.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 1:55 pm

Oh and by the way my father was SWP in the 90s and ex militant, so I think over the years Ive probably met more 0f them than you. I rejected the revolutionary left a very ong time ago - I was prepared to call my faather out on its bullshit, just like Im calling you out on yours. Another reason that your nonsense about me being 'far leftist' is risible.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 2:03 pm

PfY have sent you a PM.

And I don't mean Theresa May.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 2:10 pm

I hadn't seen this, from September.

https://www.ft.com/content/fc0efc68-7c2 ... 93b105145e" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Network Rail has abandoned plans to privatise the vast telecoms network that runs alongside UK railway lines.

Network Rail did lots of borrowing which was at the time not included in the National Debt. It is now and it's under pressure to reduce it. Plus the Great Western Electrification has gone massively over budget. Hence asset sales were decided in March.

It's not exactly clear what these assets are going to be....

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 2:13 pm

So let me see if I have this right?

1. Someone tries to post on a different forum which is known to some on here but not others.
2. Having presumably failed, he then comes on here and jeers at people who post on that other forum knowing that it would almost certainly be read by them.

Bloody hell, that's just mental. Talk about seriously losing the plot.

Mind you, said person has long been known to take screengrabs from here and jeer at people from Twitter so I guess it's the same kind of odd behaviour.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 2:16 pm

Bricks. Not Brexit. Bricks.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So not even back up to the levels before the recession?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 2:16 pm

Davis says having a second referendum would be “the most destructive thing” that could happen to the government’s negotiating position.

Really?

The EU might want the UK off its back, and the UK PM might be able to ask for favours because she had to "get it past the British people".

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 2:17 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:So let me see if I have this right?

1. Someone tries to post on a different forum which is known to some on here but not others.
2. Having presumably failed, he then comes on here and jeers at people who post on that other forum knowing that it would almost certainly be read by them.

Bloody hell, that's just mental. Talk about seriously losing the plot.

Mind you, said person has long been known to take screengrabs from here and jeer at people from Twitter so I guess it's the same kind of odd behaviour.

It brings back memories of trashy American soaps. Have you got an evil twin called rusty?

ScarletGas · Post by **ScarletGas** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 2:25 pm

OK,three guesses as to who the Press Gazette has awarded "Journalist of the year 2016" to.

No, its not Dan F Hodges, its not Lady Smug (Isobel Oakeshott, who will be fuming) its not Tom Naturally Dumb (from the Sun and every political TV show you can think of) so that only leaves us one................Drum Roll...............

Laura Konservativeberg.

Never in doubt really was it!!

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 2:26 pm

The Secret Barrister
‏@BarristerSecret
1. It is hard to know where to start with this litany of stupid from the dissembling IDS, but let's try.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 3:09 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
The Secret Barrister
‏@BarristerSecret
1. It is hard to know where to start with this litany of stupid from the dissembling IDS, but let's try.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

first reply says it all.

He’s got this deliberately wrong to pitch a spurious, emotive argument to gullible Brexiters. Either that or he’s a pillock

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 3:35 pm

ScarletGas wrote:OK,three guesses as to who the Press Gazette has awarded "Journalist of the year 2016" to.

No, its not Dan F Hodges, its not Lady Smug (Isobel Oakeshott, who will be fuming) its not Tom Naturally Dumb (from the Sun and every political TV show you can think of) so that only leaves us one................Drum Roll...............

Laura Konservativeberg.

Never in doubt really was it!!

Bloody hell - remember how she started the year!

http://labourlist.org/2016/01/labour-vs ... signation/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

labour-vs-the-bbc-official-complaint-lodged-over-doughtys-on-air-resignation

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 3:46 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/housing-net ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The rent gap: what is the local housing allowance

Edited to replace bollox with something more interesting,possibly.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 3:46 pm

"The public were fully informed” about what Brexit meant before voting, says Michael Gove.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 3:47 pm

Angela Smith of these parts saying she will vote against May's amendment.

Nicky Morgan on now.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 3:47 pm

From the Low Pay Commission. Very striking how much low pay there is in rural areas, with a few very affluent exceptions like Cotswold.

The fact the Chancellor raised it by less than expected because of Brexit ought to have some effect in the Sleaford and North Wykeham by election, but it probably won't. Another Brexit reason happened, of course, is EU citizens, to all intents and purposes, permanent residents of the UK, couldn't vote. The British inhabitants of such areas fancy themselves as our equivalent of Deep South Republicans.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 3:47 pm

Morgan will vote for the amendment and for the motion.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 3:49 pm

"It's not good enough that these things are dragged out of the Government by opposition day motions" [Nicky Morgan]

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 3:51 pm

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Inde ... 4c09c7a28d" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

to watch it btw

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 3:52 pm

Nicky Morgan really quite good.

Carswell on now

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 3:53 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Inde ... 4c09c7a28d

to watch it btw

Can I wait till Douglas Carswell's finished?

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 3:55 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Inde ... 4c09c7a28d

to watch it btw
Can I wait till Douglas Carswell's finished?

He has but Owen Paterson is on now, even worse!

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 3:58 pm

Tubby@

I read recently that my constituency has an average of 37% living 'in poverty'.
Some areas in it are as high as 40%. Cardigan/Teifi has 43%.
Shockingly high.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 4:02 pm

https://flipboard.com/@flipboard/flip.i ... 4%2Fqz.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A recently published research paper by David Evans of the World Bank and Anna Popova of Stanford University shows that giving money to the poor has a negative effect on the consumption of tobacco and alcohol. Evans and Popova’s research is based on an examination of nineteen studies that assess the impact of cash transfers on expenditures of tobacco and alcohol. Not one of the 19 studies found that cash grants increase tobacco and alcohol consumption and many of them found that it leads to a reduction.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 4:02 pm

Ivan Lewis now - a bit better

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 4:07 pm

Peter Bone

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 4:13 pm

Fidel Castro's Health Care Legacy
The Commonwealth Fund
David Blumenthal, M.D.

"By almost all accounts, Cuba’s health care achievements directly reflect the decisions of Fidel Castro.
The Cubans we met consistently reported that Castro personally prioritized two services: education and health care.

Cuba spends about 10 percent of its GDP on health care. Services are free and funded by the state. Its delivery system
prioritizes primary care and public health, and extends into virtually all the island’s communities.

The system operates at three levels.
- At its base is a network of almost 13,000 local family practices and 451 polyclinics that offer general and specialty care.
Family practices consist of a physician and a nurse who live in the communities they serve. Each practice is responsible for
between 1,000 and 1,500 patients, and physicians are required to visit every patient in their home at least yearly (or more
often if indicated).
- The next level of service is the island’s 151 community hospitals that dispense secondary services.
- A third level of service consists of 12 institutes that offer highly specialized care, and participate in teaching and research.

We visited research centers specializing in biotechnology, genetics, and cancer immunology that have patented new treatments
for diabetic foot ulcers and lung cancer, among others. While not large or sophisticated by first world standards, Cuba’s research
investments are unusual for a nation of its modest wealth, and have produced pharmaceutical exports that are another source of
foreign currency.

Cuba’s investments in health care go beyond direct services and reflect Castro’s evident belief in health and biomedical science
as long-term mainstays of the Cuban economy. Cuba has trained a surplus of physicians in its 13 medical schools, and sends
50,000 health professionals, including 25,000 physicians, abroad annually to provide care in developing countries."

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publica ... are-legacy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

55DegreesNorth · Post by **55DegreesNorth** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 4:13 pm

Evening folks,
As usual, I have little to say, but will do so anyway. One of my retirement activities is maintaining a website for a local community group. This includes updating it, posting on social media, and administering the forum.
It's a pain in the tits, and pretty time-consuming.
@Refitman
@PaulfromYorkshire

Hats off to you both, keep up the good work, and thanks for the effort. And thanks for the thought provoking info from all and sundry.
Best wishes to all. I'm off to feed my Christmas cake now (there will be plenty)

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 4:20 pm

Anna Soubry on now

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 4:29 pm

I realise I dropped the Commonwealth Fund article in at an odd time, given the House debates.

Please do read the entire report on the dramatic improvement of Cuba's population following the revolution.

The Commonwealth Fund is a US organisation that published, Mirror, Mirror on the Wall, 2014 Update:
How the U.S. Health Care System Compares Internationally. I've linked it below.

"Among the 11 nations studied in this report—Australia, Canada, France, Germany, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway,
Sweden, Switzerland, the United Kingdom, and the United States—the U.S. ranks last.... In this edition of Mirror, Mirror,
the United Kingdom ranks first, followed closely by Switzerland..."

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publica ... ror-mirror" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 4:29 pm

Twenty reasons why Brexit will be even trickier than we thought
From the wrong kind of fish off our coasts, to divorcees stuck in marital limbo, Britain’s painful extraction from the EU will send shockwaves through almost every part of our lives. Here are just some of the side-effects...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... we-thought" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 4:31 pm

The debate is really very good IMO - I'm enjoying it.

Not much support for the Government! Presumably the Tory zombies will traps in later and vote for May?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 4:38 pm

yahyah wrote:Tubby@

I read recently that my constituency has an average of 37% living 'in poverty'.
Some areas in it are as high as 40%. Cardigan/Teifi has 43%.
Shockingly high.

Ouch.

Looks like some useful figures collected here.

http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ ... ry/SN04191" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 4:39 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:The debate is really very good IMO - I'm enjoying it.

Not much support for the Government! Presumably the Tory zombies will traps in later and vote for May?

They might well do. Not that many have been following IDS and Raab over the top either.

So hard Brexit isn't done and dusted by any means.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 4:44 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... albot-open" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tata Steel commits to keeping Port Talbot open

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 4:44 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Starmer is a surprisingly hesitant speaker, but he's doing a good job generally. A good appointment.

I read somewhere he had a stammer when young. Ed Balls stuck up for him on twitter as well - when he was criticised for how he had spoken in a debate - so the hesitancy maybe left over from that?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 4:44 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... hill-paine" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Racist troll guilty of harassing Labour MP with antisemitic posts

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 4:45 pm

Could well be. Surprising that I've never heard this said before given he was a barrister.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 4:53 pm

HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... hill-paine

Racist troll guilty of harassing Labour MP with antisemitic posts

An extreme right winger. Worth mentioning, if only because certain media people blamed "Corbynistas" when news of this first emerged.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 4:58 pm

HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... albot-open

Tata Steel commits to keeping Port Talbot open

Good - but have you had a look at AngryAsWell's "20 Reasons" link, above?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 5:09 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38237517" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Arrest over threats to Gina Miller.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 5:26 pm

Earlier Dominic Grieve, the Conservative former attorney general, gave a powerful speech criticising the “vitriolic abuse” directed at people who have questioned the government’s right to trigger article 50 without consulting parliament. He said the worst moment came when a government minister, whom he did not name, criticised Gina Miler for exercising her right as a citizen to take the government to court.

If we continue like this we are on a road to a very bad place.

Grieve did not name the offending minister, but he was almost certainly referring to Sajid Javid, the community secretary who said Miller’s high court case was “a clear attempt to frustrate the will of the British people.”

(Politics Live, Guardian)

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 5:29 pm

Have we had this one?

Tory MPs suggest firms draw up list for bonfire of EU laws after Brexit
Michael Gove and John Whittingdale tell CBI companies should outline regulations they want scrapped when Britain exits bloc

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ter-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 5:38 pm

@Law_&_Policy
This NI challenge is not just seeking to pull the carpet from under the government on A50; it is trying to remove the floor itself.

Schona Jolly @WomaninHavana
Powerful challenge from Lavery QC on the very fundamentals of the N Irish constitutional situation. I will read the transcript w care.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 07 Dec, 2016 5:48 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:Have we had this one?

Tory MPs suggest firms draw up list for bonfire of EU laws after Brexit
Michael Gove and John Whittingdale tell CBI companies should outline regulations they want scrapped when Britain exits bloc

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ter-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm shocked, shocked that the chap from the institute of Economic Affairs thinks it's a great idea!

Right, off to school meetings.