Sat 10th and Sun 11th December 2016

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 6:22 am

Morning fledglings.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 6:35 am

Morning

The trouble with utilising the listen later functon of Radio 4/4extra is that I get confused as to time and date(granted it doesn't take much)For me it just past 3pm on Monday.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 7:29 am

Jeremy Corbyn considering radical plan to ban petrol car sales

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 66301.html

The bold proposal would mean only zero- or low-carbon vehicles being sold after a set cut-off date, dramatically reducing air pollution and potentially saving thousands of lives.
The move would form part of a broader and revolutionary package of measures to transform Britain into a low-carbon nation.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 8:04 am

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ain-durham" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hitachi unveils first UK-built Intercity Express train
Fleet of Class 800 trains, ordered by government, to be produced at Japanese manufacturer’s plant in Durham

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 8:20 am

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/12/09/vo ... lowest-le/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 8:29 am

https://memegenerator.net/instance/66734662" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 8:56 am

SpinningHugo wrote:https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/12/09/vo ... lowest-le/

Not great.

Quite surprised that 35% can'd decide between May and Corbyn. At least there's some hope....

You must be a bit disappointed that Jez is outflanking your new party on low-carbon cars though!

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 9:57 am

Good morfternoon.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 10:36 am

Here's an extract from an e-mail I've just received from my local Labour branch -

Dear members

This is to let you know I am cancelling our December meeting as it is too near to Christmas and at the last meeting only 4 members attended out of a 200 membership list. (my emphasis)

Encouraging.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 11:04 am

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 66301.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Jeremy Corbyn considering radical plan to ban petrol car sales

Am with him on this - but only if the electrical power used for electrical cars is produced from non-fossil sources etc etc

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 11:10 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/12/09/vo ... lowest-le/
Not great.

Quite surprised that 35% can'd decide between May and Corbyn. At least there's some hope....

You must be a bit disappointed that Jez is outflanking your new party on low-carbon cars though!

Electric cars are only low carbon when the electricity they are run on comes from renewables rather than burning gas, surely? I think I would prefer to push for cleaner energy infrastructure and supporting the electric car industry so it can become more affordable. The above is a rather authoritarian approach.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 11:11 am

Good-morning, everyone.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 11:13 am

Man urges MPs to back assisted dying before ending his life at Dignitas

Andrew Barclay, 65, who died on Thursday, called for change in law before taking lethal dose of drugs in apartment near Zurich (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... t-dignitas

Bonnylad · Post by **Bonnylad** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 11:24 am

https://www.crowdjustice.org/case/brexit-for-the-100/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 11:25 am

Willow904 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/12/09/vo ... lowest-le/
Not great.

Quite surprised that 35% can'd decide between May and Corbyn. At least there's some hope....

You must be a bit disappointed that Jez is outflanking your new party on low-carbon cars though!
Electric cars are only low carbon when the electricity they are run on comes from renewables rather than burning gas, surely? I think I would prefer to push for cleaner energy infrastructure and supporting the electric car industry so it can become more affordable. The above is a rather authoritarian approach.

Avoiding authoritarian approaches has got us where we are now.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... r-recorded" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 11:38 am

Bonnylad wrote:https://www.crowdjustice.org/case/brexit-for-the-100/

Thats impressive, £70,000 target
£30,000 pledged so far (13 hours.)

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 11:43 am

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 66761.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Brexit: Lawyers seek new legal challenge to Article 50 in Irish courts
Campaign is also trying to find out if leaving the European Economic Area would require an entirely separate negotiation

Lawyers are trying to raise £70,000 in public donations to fund a new court case over Article 50 and the Brexit process.

(see bonnylad above)

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 11:54 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:Morning fledglings.

Good morning (just)

Just to say that I endorse your closing comment to Tem on yesterday's thread.

He is a genuinely stimulating contributor and commentator but needs to be a bit more......restrained.....on occasion.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 12:04 pm

Willow904 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/12/09/vo ... lowest-le/
Not great.

Quite surprised that 35% can'd decide between May and Corbyn. At least there's some hope....

You must be a bit disappointed that Jez is outflanking your new party on low-carbon cars though!
Electric cars are only low carbon when the electricity they are run on comes from renewables rather than burning gas, surely? I think I would prefer to push for cleaner energy infrastructure and supporting the electric car industry so it can become more affordable. The above is a rather authoritarian approach.

https://www.quora.com/If-electric-cars- ... -emissions

I think the argument is that the energy conversion is lower for electric cars, so overall you'd end up with a lower carbon footprint.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 12:30 pm

If you really want to go – Germany and Brexit

http://voxeu.org/article/if-you-really- ... and-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 12:37 pm

Ian Dunt, as ever, cuts to the points missed by others

Ian DuntVerified account
‏@IanDunt
That EU citizenship idea also not just cosmetic. For low-income UK-European couples, it may be only way they can live together.
(Long thread)
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 1:02 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/12/09/vo ... lowest-le/
Not great.

Quite surprised that 35% can'd decide between May and Corbyn. At least there's some hope....

You must be a bit disappointed that Jez is outflanking your new party on low-carbon cars though!

No green is unhappy with that. we want to save civilisation, if labour the tories or the devil himself is prepared to help us they are welcome, Ill evven take our tesco value troll's vote.

4 degrees is locked in, 2/3 of all life on earth is going through local extinction events, we are ffacing the greatest extinction event in global history, more species than the dinosaurs are dying faster than ever. Normal extinction events play out over millenia, the anthropecene extinction event is happening in three decades.

We really are fucked, but carry on complaining about labour and brexit, its really helping our species survive.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 1:09 pm

What civilisation? Our species is not civilised as we demonstrate daily.
Am also perplexed by the fact that we understand that we have passed the carrying capacity of the planet but continue to focus economics on a model of continued population growth.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 1:12 pm

Temulkar. You can talk about what you are concerned about and other people can talk about what they are concerned about.
It's a product of ... er ... "civilisation".

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 1:13 pm

Exclusive: Ministers warned they have 'no powers' to deal with repeat of Trojan Horse scandal

Will Hazell

https://www.tes.com/news/school-news/br ... eat-trojan" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 1:15 pm

Plus, Temulkar my good man; for you to chide us for "complaining about Labour" is frankly a bit rum.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 1:15 pm

Repeat of BBCaqs if anyone want to hear Clive Lewis being quite good.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b084dsk3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 2:07 pm

Bonnylad wrote:https://www.crowdjustice.org/case/brexit-for-the-100/

As I said yesterday, if I were an MP, I would want to have definitive answers to these questions before considering whether and when to vote for article 50. No doubt the government has consulted lawyers who have expressed opinions on the matter, but I'm assuming opposition MPs wouldn't be privy to this information and besides, representatives of the EU may have other opinions. Given article 50 hasn't been tested, I think a ruling on the basics from a court that all parties adhere to would be beneficial. Taking a leap into the dark without even taking the trouble to ask questions about very basic points, is not responsible political representation in my view. Knowing, for instance, whether we would automatically remain in the EEA or would have to reapply, is very basic information that every single citizen in this country has a right to know and in reality should have been told before the referendum was held.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 2:08 pm

Peter Tatchell disrupts Jeremy Corbyn speech with Syria protest

Campaigner shouts over Labour leader, demanding he do more to condemn actions of Russia in conflict
(Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... ia-protest

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 2:14 pm

25% ? Yikes. Hopefully an outlier.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 2:17 pm

Meanwhile, as the country and the world goes to hell in a convoy of turbo-charged handcarts, we in Wales are being consulted on the issue of renaming the Welsh Assembly.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-38249550" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 2:24 pm

http://senedd.assembly.wales/mgConsulta ... spx?ID=240" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 2:35 pm

PorFavor wrote:
Peter Tatchell disrupts Jeremy Corbyn speech with Syria protest

Campaigner shouts over Labour leader, demanding he do more to condemn actions of Russia in conflict
(Guardian)
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... ia-protest

Bit OTT, isn't it? What does he want Corbyn to do? There are no Western journalists in Aleppo, so we have no accurate information as to what is happening, so condemnation of Russian bombing would be based on supposition rather than facts confirmed by objective observers, making it difficult to make anything but general statements in support of a peaceful settlement. Certainly the UK government could do more to help refugees and support peace talks, but I'm not sure what practical steps the opposition could take to improve the situation.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 2:39 pm

yahyah wrote:Meanwhile, as the country and the world goes to hell in a convoy of turbo-charged handcarts, we in Wales are being consulted on the issue of renaming the Welsh Assembly.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-38249550" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I reckon Eisteddfodd, would have been good name,
but sadly already used for song (& a dance

) festival.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 2:53 pm

Relief at last: toilet charges suspended at two London train stations

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... ring-cross" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 3:03 pm

https://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2016 ... times.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The public analyst in crazy times

Mainly Macro

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 3:10 pm

@citizenJA

Please excuse my tardiness in replying to you - things have been a bit frantic here in the last few days.
(good frantic, not bad frantic fortunately) xx

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 3:13 pm

Willow904 wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
Peter Tatchell disrupts Jeremy Corbyn speech with Syria protest

Campaigner shouts over Labour leader, demanding he do more to condemn actions of Russia in conflict
(Guardian)
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... ia-protest
Bit OTT, isn't it? What does he want Corbyn to do? There are no Western journalists in Aleppo, so we have no accurate information as to what is happening, so condemnation of Russian bombing would be based on supposition rather than facts confirmed by objective observers, making it difficult to make anything but general statements in support of a peaceful settlement. Certainly the UK government could do more to help refugees and support peace talks, but I'm not sure what practical steps the opposition could take to improve the situation.

From what I could gather from the snippet of the interview I heard, Peter Tatchell believes that Jeremy Corbyn is not as vociferous in his condemnation of Russia and its allies as he has been, in the past, in regard to other states (eg USA re Vietnam). He also feels that not enough has been done in the Commons.

I think he was suggesting that there was a whiff of double standards.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 3:18 pm

Acutely ill children waiting nine hours for beds in intensive care
Some paediatric units now at 150% capacity, warns doctors’ body (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... iatricians

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 3:19 pm

Valerio De Cesaris ‏@ValerioDeC 36s36 seconds ago
This year in the famous Sand Crib in #Salerno, Italy, Mary and Joseph are #migrants, on a boat, where Jesus will born

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 3:19 pm

yahyah wrote:25% ? Yikes. Hopefully an outlier.

Tories going up 3 points immediately after Richmond does feel a bit funny, tbh.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 3:24 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
yahyah wrote:25% ? Yikes. Hopefully an outlier.
Tories going up 3 points immediately after Richmond does feel a bit funny, tbh.

Thanks. I wondered if something was amiss.

It does make me rethink my feelings about Labour at the moment. If I was really detached from the party I'd not give a stuff how they were polling. In 2020 they'll need every vote they can get.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 3:28 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:Valerio De Cesaris ‏@ValerioDeC 36s36 seconds ago
This year in the famous Sand Crib in #Salerno, Italy, Mary and Joseph are #migrants, on a boat, where Jesus will born

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lovely. Thanks for the link.

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 3:31 pm

At last, somebody speaking with sense and clarity about Brexit. It's Tony Blair.

I accept the mandate of the referendum. And if it can be ‘made to work’ and the Government comes through with a solution which protects the British economy and our influence over things Europe does which affect us, then even though I will still disagree with leaving, frankly I will have to lump it. But many approached this referendum on the basis not of ideology but because they believed it was more gain than pain to Leave. They thought, because they were told, there would be more money for the NHS. Immigration would be curtailed. We would ‘take back control’ and would do it without financial downside.

Suppose the gain/pain ratio shifts. Suppose it becomes clear that there isn’t more money for the NHS but actually less; that more jobs will go than come; that most of the immigration will stay and so will the loss of growth and the drop in the value of the currency. In other words, supposing when people see the actual proposition of Leave, where facts have replaced claims, they think this is not a good idea.

All I am arguing is that in those circumstances they should have the right to say: what you told us has turned out to be wrong and so we have changed our mind.

The irony is that post truth politics, that the Leave campaign used so relentlessly, is partly inspired by the received wisdom that Blair is the ultimate lying politician.

I've never subscribed to the idea that he lied. It is however the most successful smear in modern history. Blair was misled by what Chilcot described as 'certainty and emphasis that the Joint Intelligence Comittee (JIC) gave to what was revealed to be "patchy' intelligence"'.

The Tories have a complicated attitude to Blair - they hated him for being a successful Labour PM, but admired his success. Cameron, Osborne and Gove would creepily refer to him as 'the Master' and wonder what he would do in particular circumstances. Their playing fast and loose with the truth was and is their third rate Blair tribute act.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 4:00 pm

yahyah wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
yahyah wrote:25% ? Yikes. Hopefully an outlier.
Tories going up 3 points immediately after Richmond does feel a bit funny, tbh.
Thanks. I wondered if something was amiss.

It does make me rethink my feelings about Labour at the moment. If I was really detached from the party I'd not give a stuff how they were polling. In 2020 they'll need every vote they can get.

Though none of this detracts from the fact that Labour's polling is currently appalling, and that is something that needs to improve markedly in 2017.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 4:04 pm

RIP AA Gill

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 4:09 pm

Temulkar wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/12/09/vo ... lowest-le/
Not great.

Quite surprised that 35% can'd decide between May and Corbyn. At least there's some hope....

You must be a bit disappointed that Jez is outflanking your new party on low-carbon cars though!
No green is unhappy with that. we want to save civilisation, if labour the tories or the devil himself is prepared to help us they are welcome, Ill evven take our tesco value troll's vote.

4 degrees is locked in, 2/3 of all life on earth is going through local extinction events, we are ffacing the greatest extinction event in global history, more species than the dinosaurs are dying faster than ever. Normal extinction events play out over millenia, the anthropecene extinction event is happening in three decades.

We really are fucked, but carry on complaining about labour and brexit, its really helping our species survive.

Aren't you writing a book? How is that helping our species survive? How was you moaning about Ed Miliband's Labour helping?

Brexit is a bunch of the worst people trying to get out of any kind of vaguely humane regulation, not least on renewable energy and climate change. It's being cheered on by the worst people people in lots of other countries. I made this point yesterday, and this and (bizarrely, my support for HS2) marked me out as some environment trashing fool. I'm sure when scientists (many of whom are extremely worried about Brexit) get together and reflect on climate change, they think "You know what's really doing it? Electric trains! Some people blame Exxon Mobil, but the real culprits are the TGV and Bullet Train."

I get that you're not that interested in Brexit. Lots of people like you haven't engaged with the EU issue for about 40 years. It's actually quite encouraging that boredom is your latest thing, because it suggests that you've given up on Lexit rubbish.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 4:14 pm

Indeed. The picture is quite large. Some people need to focus on bits of it; others need to join up the dots.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 4:14 pm

And indeed join different dots for different pictures.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 4:17 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:Exclusive: Ministers warned they have 'no powers' to deal with repeat of Trojan Horse scandal

Will Hazell

https://www.tes.com/news/school-news/br ... eat-trojan" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Quite a double take to see that Sir Mike isn't Wilshaw in this case.

Sir Mike Tomlinson was a surprisingly sensible appointment by Nicky Morgan. I think, with a bit less of the Policy Exhange crowd on her back, she could have been a reasonable Tory Secretary of State.

Tomlinson doesn't say much about the affair itself, but I think we have to take from this that there was a significant problem and that it wasn't entirely or mainly a Gove-Gilligan set up. On the other hand, a more sensible oversight system would have stopped it getting anything like that far.