Thursday 29th December 2016

Post by **refitman** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 7:09 am

Morning all.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 8:37 am

A great win in Telford!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... mmons-vote" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(A seat where neither the Lib Dems nor Greens stood unlike when last contested. UPDATE. On a 17% turnout, with 774 votes cast.)

Overall record here

http://britainelects.com/2016/12/27/201 ... a-roundup/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 10:17 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
Overall record here

http://britainelects.com/2016/12/27/201 ... a-roundup/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What I take from that (which I've also pointed out before for 1 and 2).

1. The announcement of the death of the LibDems was premature
2. We reached peak-UKIP last election. With May stealing their clothes on grammars and ECHR, they're finished.
3. Someone really needs a lesson on how to present data - that chart is laughably bad.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 10:22 am

I know this isn't politics but it's still worth seeing - marvellous.

[youtube]9LVgr-nk1mM[/youtube]

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 10:25 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
Overall record here

http://britainelects.com/2016/12/27/201 ... a-roundup/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What I take from that (which I've also pointed out before for 1 and 2).

1. The announcement of the death of the LibDems was premature
2. We reached peak-UKIP last election. With May stealing their clothes on grammars and ECHR, they're finished.
3. Someone really needs a lesson on how to present data - that chart is laughably bad.

Ukip won't win any seats at all. The problem for Labour is twofold.

1. Labour loses seats tot eh Tories not Ukip. As Ukip voters drift back to the Tories, Labour loses more. May is moving to the right because she wants those votes and doesn't worry about Labour.

2. As discussed by Labour councillors here

https://www.ft.com/content/475ddfd6-c79 ... 45cac8966f" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

electorally Labour's current policy of being

i. Anti-single market membership
and
ii. Pro freedom of movement

is electoral poison, the least popular option. Unpopular with liberal Remainers (ie me) and unpopular with ukip leading working class voters.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 11:12 am

Good morfternoon.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 11:13 am

"How to fight hard Brexit: Step 1 – Understand why Remain lost. Spoiler: It’s not what Westminster thinks"

http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2016/12/28/ho ... more-21235

Why did Remain lose? Since the referendum Brexiteers have been assiduous in asserting their narrative: immigration trumped the economy, emotion won over facts and these are the new rules of the political game.
The Brexiteer version of history is now the accepted consensus at Westminster, virtually unchallenged by pro-Europeans, often meekly accepted.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 11:18 am

tinybgoat wrote:"How to fight hard Brexit: Step 1 – Understand why Remain lost. Spoiler: It’s not what Westminster thinks"

http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2016/12/28/ho ... more-21235
Why did Remain lose? Since the referendum Brexiteers have been assiduous in asserting their narrative: immigration trumped the economy, emotion won over facts and these are the new rules of the political game.
The Brexiteer version of history is now the accepted consensus at Westminster, virtually unchallenged by pro-Europeans, often meekly accepted.

Atul Hatwell doesn't have the best judgement

http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2015/08/17/ig ... ng-to-win/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 11:32 am

That prediction on Jez is not his only classic, either

This latest effort is still an interesting piece though.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 12:01 pm

Syrian government and rebels have signed ceasefire agreement, says Putin

Russian president says opposing forces have agreed to begin new round of negotiations to find political solution to conflict (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... says-putin

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 12:31 pm

Free betting tip.

Place money on Labour to win this

http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/bri ... ion/winner" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Governments don't win by-elections in opposition seats.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 12:32 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... s-copeland" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sellafield unrest could dent Tory byelection chances, unions warn
Unions say industrial unrest cannot be ruled out by nuclear workers in Copeland amid row over changes to pension scheme

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 12:34 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:Free betting tip.

Place money on Labour to win this

http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/bri ... ion/winner" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Governments don't win by-elections in opposition seats.

Never say never, but I do think some have got carried away about Tory chances here - based on not very much really.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 12:48 pm

SH are you a bookmaker?

"What's my secret profession"

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 12:55 pm

The Telegraph Verified account ‏@Telegraph 1h1 hour ago

David Cameron is being considered for the role of Nato Secretary General, according to reports
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12 ... eral-role/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

He'd be a great choice - the man who gambled on winning a referendum...and lost. Absolutely no sense of tactics or strategy.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 12:58 pm

Convinced we are all in the worst Carry On film,you can imagine.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 1:18 pm

HindleA wrote:Convinced we are all in the worst Carry On film,you can imagine.

Carry On Up Shit Creek.

Starring Theresa may, Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage, and Donald Trump.

A hilarious film about them finding themselves in all sorts of bother without paddles...

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 1:28 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
The Telegraph Verified account ‏@Telegraph 1h1 hour ago

David Cameron is being considered for the role of Nato Secretary General, according to reports
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12 ... eral-role/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

He'd be a great choice - the man who gambled on winning a referendum...and lost. Absolutely no sense of tactics or strategy.

Also the man who thought we should support 'moderate rebels', namely the inhuman brutes of Daesh.

A man with a proven track record of being wrong about everything, apart from the fact we should stay in the EU (and then engineered the disaster of Brexit). And a compulsive liar.

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 1:35 pm

Cameron was the worst PM since Eden (and Eden had some redeeming qualities which Cameron lacks).

May is shaping up to be worse though, which is saying something.

However, the fact that May was able to consolidate her position after her serial balls-up at the Home Office is Cameron's fault as well.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 1:38 pm

Yeah but apart from all that...

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 1:43 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:I know this isn't politics but it's still worth seeing - marvellous.

[youtube]9LVgr-nk1mM[/youtube]

That was lovely, thanks Roger.

Debbie R had a hard life in lots of ways, not least Eddie Fisher's betrayal and then two more even worse husbands. But the films are joyful. Tragic to lose her daughter - think she died of a broken heart, poor woman.

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 1:54 pm

Talk about May and Trump doing a Maggie and Reagan double act makes me think of the phrase 'history repeats itself, once as tragedy then as farce'. Although there's plenty of scope for tragedy as well with a dangerous man baby like Trump in charge.

May is a bit like a repeat of Gordon Brown as well. Both children of clergymen, both unelected and taking over from an electorally successful but divisive figure. May is going to hit the rocks just as Gordon did with the 2008 crash, but the difference is she knows there's going to be a financial disaster due to Brexit, but seems to be burying her head in the sand. So far, so farcical (and tragic).

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 2:28 pm

Good-afternoon, everyone.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 2:32 pm

HindleA wrote:Convinced we are all in the worst Carry On film,you can imagine.

Yes, I agree. I'd like being in a film though. I'd know it wasn't real.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 2:37 pm

nickyinnorfolk wrote:Talk about May and Trump doing a Maggie and Reagan double act makes me think of the phrase 'history repeats itself, once as tragedy then as farce'. Although there's plenty of scope for tragedy as well with a dangerous man baby like Trump in charge.

May is a bit like a repeat of Gordon Brown as well. Both children of clergymen, both unelected and taking over from an electorally successful but divisive figure. May is going to hit the rocks just as Gordon did with the 2008 crash, but the difference is she knows there's going to be a financial disaster due to Brexit, but seems to be burying her head in the sand. So far, so farcical (and tragic).

As long as Tory bosses want May where she is, she'll stay there.
If a GE happens prior 2020, Tories might fall down.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 2:39 pm

I just saw the news about Debbie Reynolds

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 3:49 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... heresa-may" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No 10 plays down claim that David Cameron is lined up for Nato job

His Christmas card was a cartoon portraying him and his wife as the two halves of a pantomime donkey

.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 4:08 pm

Had a mate who was an extra in some films.Extraordinarilly funny in his accounts in pretence discussions with actors and directors about his role,which if he made it to the screen,his head might have made an appearance for a second or so.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 4:16 pm

HindleA wrote:Had a mate who was an extra in some films.Extraordinarilly funny in his accounts in pretence discussions with actors and directors about his role,which if he made it to the screen,his head might have made an appearance for a second or so.

That's about as famous as I'd ever want to be.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 4:18 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-me ... ce=twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hillsborough campaigner Phil Scraton refuses OBE

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 4:20 pm

"I could not receive an honour on the recommendation of those who remained unresponsive to the determined efforts of bereaved families and survivors to secure truth and justice."

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 4:20 pm

HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... heresa-may

No 10 plays down claim that David Cameron is lined up for Nato job

His Christmas card was a cartoon portraying him and his wife as the two halves of a pantomime donkey

.

And he's been killing wildlife (grouse) again, the twat.

Still, good to see he's realised his true role in life is playing the back end of a donkey. And with his head buried in Samantha's bottom instead of some Saudi arms buyer ...

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 4:22 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... re-hackers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Smart electricity meters can be dangerously insecure, warns expert

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 4:33 pm

Norwegian plans New York flights for under £60
Carrier plans fares as low as £56 one-way from Edinburgh, Shannon or Cork by using fuel-efficient jets and cheaper airports

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... -60-pounds" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Masque of the Red Death

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 4:51 pm

nickyinnorfolk wrote:Cameron was the worst PM since Eden (and Eden had some redeeming qualities which Cameron lacks).

May is shaping up to be worse though, which is saying something.

However, the fact that May was able to consolidate her position after her serial balls-up at the Home Office is Cameron's fault as well.

Remember the 2015 Tory conference, when all our "knowledgeable" and "insightful" political pundits agreed May had blown any leadership chances with her "hardline" speech?

It. Was. Barely. A. Year. Ago.

And yet they are still all in employment!

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 6:02 pm

Top tip ,do not presume a small white hardish substance found is a half eaten extra strong mint,lest on ingestion it is in fact a piece of Dove soap.The difference in taste is noticeable.

Other mouth washing products are available.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 6:06 pm

Though the swearing came afterwards not before.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 6:08 pm

"It's frothy man"

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 6:20 pm

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... iry-report" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Decision
Hipperholme Grammar School Foundation: Inquiry report

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 6:22 pm

HindleA wrote:"It's frothy man"

My son didn't mind the soap flavour jelly bean from his packet of "Bertie Bott's every flavour beans" too much, but definitely preferred the candy floss ones, he said soap flavour was quite strange. My daughter, inspired by Dumbledore, bravely tried the vomit flavoured one (yes, there really is a vomit flavoured one). Perhaps she forgot it put Dumbledore off Bertie Bott's for life. At any rate, it ended up down the sink. Eventually she bounced back and ate some of the nicer flavours like cherry and tutti-frutti, but hasn't followed her brother in trying sausage, which was quite horrible, apparently. So far I've only ventured to try green apple. I really am a wuss.

Anyway, I hope everyone had a nice Christmas. I had a very Christmassy one, with lots of visiting of relatives, games of Scrabble and mountains of wrapping paper. I've been trying to ignore the news, but twitter seems to keep finding me via e-mails that keep popping up on my phone. Such a shame about Carrie Fisher. I think I might go back to hiding from the news until the New Year. But I will be keeping an eye on FTN, just in case something cheerful turns up.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 6:29 pm

Suing Trebor and Unilever for deliberate deceit and non specific warnings.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 6:43 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... um=twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Fresh Brexit challenge in high court over leaving single market and EEA
Four anonymous claimants allege that separate parliamentary approval is needed to quit the European Economic Area

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 7:50 pm

Obama orders sanctions against Russia in response to US election interference (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... ction-hack

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 7:54 pm

I see that Tubby hasn't posted here today, so I would just like to bring up his comments on "common sense Corbyn" yesterday.

The spokesperson said this involved "take on the tax cheats, create a fairer economy, fund a fully public NHS, build more homes, and stop backing illegal wars". Apart from the obligatory bit of Milne-ist spartism ("illegal wars" - and it still has to be admitted that Blairite "muscular liberal" interventionism is not exactly wildly popular these days) this is all stuff that *should* be both popular and easily explainable, and tbh I was surprised that you were *that* negative.

Any other thoughts?

55DegreesNorth · Post by **55DegreesNorth** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 8:02 pm

HindleA wrote:Top tip ,do not presume a small white hardish substance found is a half eaten extra strong mint,lest on ingestion it is in fact a piece of Dove soap.The difference in taste is noticeable.

Other mouth washing products are available.

Similarly, green stuff in a plastic bottle next to the bathroom sink is not necessarily mouthwash. Something to consider when rising with a thumping hangover.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 8:43 pm

PorFavor wrote:
Obama orders sanctions against Russia in response to US election interference (Guardian)
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... ction-hack

I'm anxious because of who's working the next shift.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 8:52 pm

: G20 Summit Hangzhou China 5 September 2016 Photograph Alexei Druzhinin.jpg (40.29 KiB) Viewed 12487 times

yikes

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 9:33 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:I see that Tubby hasn't posted here today, so I would just like to bring up his comments on "common sense Corbyn" yesterday.

The spokesperson said this involved "take on the tax cheats, create a fairer economy, fund a fully public NHS, build more homes, and stop backing illegal wars". Apart from the obligatory bit of Milne-ist spartism ("illegal wars" - and it still has to be admitted that Blairite "muscular liberal" interventionism is not exactly wildly popular these days) this is all stuff that *should* be both popular and easily explainable, and tbh I was surprised that you were *that* negative.

Any other thoughts?

Sure. This is all comfort zone stuff.

You know Labour has accepted defeat when it leads on the NHS.

The key test is which would Theresa may have any problem signing up to?

Fewer tax cheats?

Fairer economy?

Public NHS? (And no, the Tories would have no problem with that.)

More homes?

No illegality?

It is just a list of nice things. On the matters of controversy (the EU, immigration) Labour is stuffed.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 9:36 pm

Evening all.

Christmas hols in kipperland is coming to a close for us. Conscious decision all round to avoid talking politics (my poor bitten tongue

), though there was big support for publicly owned railways. That'll be my last anecdotal piece of 2016.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 10:12 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:I see that Tubby hasn't posted here today, so I would just like to bring up his comments on "common sense Corbyn" yesterday.

The spokesperson said this involved "take on the tax cheats, create a fairer economy, fund a fully public NHS, build more homes, and stop backing illegal wars". Apart from the obligatory bit of Milne-ist spartism ("illegal wars" - and it still has to be admitted that Blairite "muscular liberal" interventionism is not exactly wildly popular these days) this is all stuff that *should* be both popular and easily explainable, and tbh I was surprised that you were *that* negative.

Any other thoughts?

Sure. This is all comfort zone stuff.

You know Labour has accepted defeat when it leads on the NHS.

The key test is which would Theresa may have any problem signing up to?

Fewer tax cheats?

Fairer economy?

Public NHS? (And no, the Tories would have no problem with that.)

More homes?

No illegality?

It is just a list of nice things. On the matters of controversy (the EU, immigration) Labour is stuffed.

I think it's meant to be populist, so a list of uncontroversial, nice things is a good start. The trick is getting people to believe that Corbyn can achieve these things, whereas the conservatives hampered by vested interest, can't.