HindleA wrote:I was born in Middlesex,registered in Buckinghamshire brought up in Malaya,Aberdeenshire,Cyprus,in a caravan I can't remember where and for a time by a camel called Shirley.Make of that as you will.
But have you been interviewed by Sophie Ridge ? 
The Prime Minister refused to say whether she knew about the nuclear weapon’s malfunction before declaring that she would be willing to authorise a strike that would kill 100,000 people and before allowing MPs to vote on its renewal
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/the ... 40166.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Unfortunately we come across loud and clear as Little Englanders in Europe. It's not calculated to do anything - it's a perfectly reasonable response to a stupidly nationalistic position.As a firm Remain voter and Europhile, I was most discouraged at the response of the German press to Theresa May’s two major speeches this week. Deriding us as “little Englanders” is calculated to anger even Remain voters. While I am not happy with Brexit, and certainly not with a “hard Brexit”, I would say that I am most disappointed with some of the hostile reactions coming from Europe. http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/let ... 37921.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
tinyclanger2 wrote:Unfortunately we come across loud and clear as Little Englanders in Europe. It's not calculated to do anything - it's a perfectly reasonable response to a stupidly nationalistic position.As a firm Remain voter and Europhile, I was most discouraged at the response of the German press to Theresa May’s two major speeches this week. Deriding us as “little Englanders” is calculated to anger even Remain voters. While I am not happy with Brexit, and certainly not with a “hard Brexit”, I would say that I am most disappointed with some of the hostile reactions coming from Europe. http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/let ... 37921.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Surprised they didn't mention "one World Cup".“Little Englanders” have fought two major European wars, against great odds, to protect the right of many of Europe’s peoples to live in a free democracy. I hope that those in Europe who currently ridicule and malign us as a result of the Brexit referendum vote will remember that fact.
refitman wrote:tinyclanger2 wrote:Unfortunately we come across loud and clear as Little Englanders in Europe. It's not calculated to do anything - it's a perfectly reasonable response to a stupidly nationalistic position.As a firm Remain voter and Europhile, I was most discouraged at the response of the German press to Theresa May’s two major speeches this week. Deriding us as “little Englanders” is calculated to anger even Remain voters. While I am not happy with Brexit, and certainly not with a “hard Brexit”, I would say that I am most disappointed with some of the hostile reactions coming from Europe. http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/let ... 37921.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;Surprised they didn't mention "one World Cup".“Little Englanders” have fought two major European wars, against great odds, to protect the right of many of Europe’s peoples to live in a free democracy. I hope that those in Europe who currently ridicule and malign us as a result of the Brexit referendum vote will remember that fact.
To use a slightly irritating expression used by people on the "real left", which side are you on?Mr Clegg said today: “I think that the Labour party is in danger of being cannibalised by Ukip at one end and the Liberal Democrats at the other.
"I think that this ambivalence or this absolute lack of clarity about the biggest issue of our times, sort of dithering rather helplessly in the middle of the road Is only going to make their fate even worse.”
He insisted the Lib Dems’ “clear position” on the “new dividing line” of Europe would lead to his own party’s resurgence.
“I certainly think this whole dividing line about - 'are you open, are you closed, are you in favour in embracing Europe or not?' - is the new dividing line in politics and will continue to be so particularly in the age of Trump and Putin and the sort of nativism and chauvinism of people like that," he said.
Tubby Isaacs wrote:Clegg, getting a bit carried away about Lib Dem support. But at least joining the Brexit- Trump- Putin dots.
To use a slightly irritating expression used by people on the "real left", which side are you on?Mr Clegg said today: “I think that the Labour party is in danger of being cannibalised by Ukip at one end and the Liberal Democrats at the other.
"I think that this ambivalence or this absolute lack of clarity about the biggest issue of our times, sort of dithering rather helplessly in the middle of the road Is only going to make their fate even worse.”
He insisted the Lib Dems’ “clear position” on the “new dividing line” of Europe would lead to his own party’s resurgence.
“I certainly think this whole dividing line about - 'are you open, are you closed, are you in favour in embracing Europe or not?' - is the new dividing line in politics and will continue to be so particularly in the age of Trump and Putin and the sort of nativism and chauvinism of people like that," he said.
Yes.AngryAsWell wrote:Anna Rascouët-Paz
@rascouet
Re Spicer's lies, this is from someone who worked in a past administration. Important read.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Applies to fooling people about Brexit as well.
Mike Rumbles is quite correct in saying it was the Lab/Libdem coalition that introduced the free bus passes in Scotland. (Can't remember who was in charge of transport at the time). The comment by 'Maureen Hancock' btl is, of course, untrue as transport is a devolved matter and Gordon Brown was never an MSP.HindleA wrote:https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/think-you ... ink-again/
SNP consulting on increasing age eligibility for bus pass.
(N.B.note response by Libdem)
Tubby Isaacs wrote:It's the fact that Clegg isn't a genius that's rather the point. He's the one being left to join the dots. That's where we are.
McDonnell sounded better today, and fair play for that. I worry that he and the leadership are off the pace though, because of their prejudice v the EU and misjudging Trump supporters as "core Labour" types.
But we'll see.
Haven't read it yet, but your comment started a train of thought, maybe this is the test politicians should apply when considering whether a referendum is a good idea. Imagine two separate scenarios, a close result one way and then the other. What would be the likely response of the losers? If you conclude that in at least one of the scenarios they'd throw the toys out of the pram, don't do it.Willow904 wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/ ... SApp_Other
The headline's a little misleading, the article isn't specifically about the EU referendum, but rather touches on it in passing and raises some interesting questions about the firmness in which the leave result has been asserted when we all know this would not have been the case if the result had been reversed.Amartya Sen: ‘Referendums are like opinion polls. Sometimes they’re very wrong’
I have to disagree, I don't think it is clear at all...have you a link that backs that up?tinyclanger2 wrote:A50 will be revocable or not depending on what's useful to whoever's in charge at the time. I think that has become rather clear.
Since we are no longer dealing with what pretends or aspires to be or even appear rational then we will need a different approach to have any kind of effect.
The language of kids in a playground.gilsey wrote:Willow904 wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/ ... SApp_Other
I know leavers are accusing remainers of being bad losers, but there's no comparison with how it would have been the other way round. It's hard to see why the leavers appear so unhappy, when they're getting their own way. Maybe we were supposed to save them from themselves.
It seems to me that it would be prudent to await the ruling from Dublin/EU courts as to whether A50 is revocable - before it's signed. Brexiters will, no doubt, disagree!tinyclanger2 wrote:A50 will be revocable or not depending on what's useful to whoever's in charge at the time. I think that has become rather clear.
Since we are no longer dealing with what pretends or aspires to be or even appear rational then we will need a different approach to have any kind of effect.
Indeed. But I still wouldn't trust it. We are increasingly being led by a bunch of dangerous buffoons. I fear we are in uncharted territory.Eric_WLothian wrote:It seems to me that it would be prudent to await the ruling from Dublin/EU courts as to whether A50 is revocable - before it's signed. Brexiters will, no doubt, disagree!tinyclanger2 wrote:A50 will be revocable or not depending on what's useful to whoever's in charge at the time. I think that has become rather clear.
Since we are no longer dealing with what pretends or aspires to be or even appear rational then we will need a different approach to have any kind of effect.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 68081.html
The assumption seems to be that the Irish court won't want to judge the issue and will push it up to the European court, which will give a definitive judgement. Apparently our "enemies of the people" can't be trusted to do the same.tinyclanger2 wrote:Indeed. But I still wouldn't trust it. We are increasingly being led by a bunch of dangerous buffoons. I fear we are in uncharted territory.Eric_WLothian wrote:It seems to me that it would be prudent to await the ruling from Dublin/EU courts as to whether A50 is revocable - before it's signed. Brexiters will, no doubt, disagree!tinyclanger2 wrote:A50 will be revocable or not depending on what's useful to whoever's in charge at the time. I think that has become rather clear.
Since we are no longer dealing with what pretends or aspires to be or even appear rational then we will need a different approach to have any kind of effect.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 68081.html
He has no reasonable economic advisers any more, so it is back to bullshit.Tubby Isaacs wrote:Actually, I gather McDonnell was parading that "£120bn uncollected tax" drivel again this morning. I've never understood why Gordo never collected it, or indeed Osborne or Hammond.
Eric_WLothian wrote:The assumption seems to be that the Irish court won't want to judge the issue and will push it up to the European court, which will give a definitive judgement. Apparently our "enemies of the people" can't be trusted to do the same.tinyclanger2 wrote:Indeed. But I still wouldn't trust it. We are increasingly being led by a bunch of dangerous buffoons. I fear we are in uncharted territory.Eric_WLothian wrote: It seems to me that it would be prudent to await the ruling from Dublin/EU courts as to whether A50 is revocable - before it's signed. Brexiters will, no doubt, disagree!
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 68081.html
I agree. I would find it very hard to believe that the EU wouldn't find a way to let us stay in if we changed our minds and if it suited them.tinyclanger2 wrote:A50 will be revocable or not depending on what's useful to whoever's in charge at the time. I think that has become rather clear.
gilsey wrote:I agree. I would find it very hard to believe that the EU wouldn't find a way to let us stay in if we changed our minds and if it suited them.tinyclanger2 wrote:A50 will be revocable or not depending on what's useful to whoever's in charge at the time. I think that has become rather clear.
Similarly, if A50 was revocable but the EU didn't want us, they'd find another way to keep us on the exit path.
I don't think we should get hung up on the irrevocability of A50.
Britain is vying for the award for the most unsuccessful currency depreciation in history. More than a year after it began, the U.K. has nothing but inflation to show for the pound’s plunge.
Net international trade subtracted 0.9 percentage points from year-over-year GDP growth in the third quarter. The monthly trade deficit oscillates wildly, but has remained on a deteriorating trend. Volumes of goods exports have flatlined, while volumes of goods imports have surged, reaching an all-time high in November despite a 10% year-over-year jump in prices.
Exports will pick up meaningfully only when new firms enter the market to compete with and undercut existing exporters. But uncertainty about the Brexit process likely means that this will be a slow and tentative process. Who would invest to export now, when Prime Minister Theresa May threatens to fall back on World Trade Organization rules for trade with Europe if her Brexit demands aren’t met? Without preferential access to Europe’s single market, Britain’s exports to the European Union would be subject to tariffs averaging 5% and burdensome customs checks.
I agree the timescale may be lengthy but it gives another option for the A50 vote - "wait to see if it's revocable before signing". The Dublin route is probably quicker and more diplomatic. If the SC were to decide (either way) the 'losers' would want to escalate to the ECJ anyway. If that happened, it would reignite the "EU overruling the UK" argument.howsillyofme1 wrote:Eric_WLothian wrote:The assumption seems to be that the Irish court won't want to judge the issue and will push it up to the European court, which will give a definitive judgement. Apparently our "enemies of the people" can't be trusted to do the same.tinyclanger2 wrote: Indeed. But I still wouldn't trust it. We are increasingly being led by a bunch of dangerous buffoons. I fear we are in uncharted territory.
Having that knowledge before invoking A50 would be very, very useful
I wonder if someone will ask the question at some point - may be worried to as you can imagine the backlash if anyone was seen to undermine the referendum result but I would say it is key to our negotiations
I agree that it will end up at the ECJ, Ireland would wisely want to stay out of it
Trouble is I can guess this will take a long time......will also be interesting to see the judgement of the Supreme Court as the ability to revoke would actually make the decision to launch the process less fraught, especially if they say (am I dreaming here?) that it is not the launch of A50 that needs Parliamentary consent but the actual decision to leave at the end!
They could, of course, offer a deal which involved us staying a member, perhaps with some trivial concession to save face all round. Trouble is, they could take the opposite view and just say f*** off (diplomatically, of course).Tubby Isaacs wrote:Gilsey is right. The EU would find a way to call it off, and I think offers will be made to that effect.
But being able to call it off, with an unquestioned legal position, would be a boost. "You don't want us back in, arguing our deregulation stuff inside again, do you?"
Agree with what you've said,howsillyofme1 wrote:All these people saying that we cannot accept the referendum decision please tell me in simple steps how we stop it happening.....and please try to keep it realistic
I will lay mine out but it is based on the assumption that A50 is revocable....
1. Allow Government to enact A50 based on the referendum vote (may be able to have some amendments)
2. Monitor the progress of negotiations and highlight where the UK will be worse off and make a noise about it
3. If (when) the public realise the damage then push for revocation, either via a second referendum or a Parliamentary decision
Davies has already promised a Parliamentary vote on the final deal where he suggested Deal vs No Deal but if there was the option for revocation and public opinion was clearly against leaving then that vote may be more critical than has been thought - and offer the Government a way out as well
If A50 is not revocable then we are up shit creek - Parliamentary arithmetic will not allow for blocking and there are no prospects for another referendum......or a General Election.
I would prefer that we knew the answer on revocation now rather than in a year's time......I still think there is a possibility the EU will offer it as a carrot at some point as they start using the stick!
Labour can shout and scream like the Lib Dems about the A50 vote now but that is just posturing......it would only be done in the hope of minimising political damage in 2020....I am not at all convinced it will make any difference and to be honest I am not that bothered arguing it as it is based on a view of the future when there are so many other variables
If someone can come up with a credible way to block A50 politically without being accused of going against the referendum result then I am all ears
I think you mean "A Plan"...tinybgoat wrote:
Agree with what you've said,
I think there's a need at this point to (while still accepting A50 will be declared) at least stand against T.May's claims that everyone is coming together & are impatient for process to start. Maybe pushing for clarity on whether process is revocable, and/or scope of parliamentary vote, referendum or election at the end would be useful, possibly refusing to vote for triggering article 50 until answer is determined.
Labour probably wouldn't have numbers to make this work, but it would be an important principal & maybe help show some support for remain whilst not going against referendum result.
They're not the ones looking and behaving like nationalist frothers. They can make offers, sincerely, or not, and we'll make arses of ourselves.Eric_WLothian wrote:They could, of course, offer a deal which involved us staying a member, perhaps with some trivial concession to save face all round. Trouble is, they could take the opposite view and just say f*** off (diplomatically, of course).Tubby Isaacs wrote:Gilsey is right. The EU would find a way to call it off, and I think offers will be made to that effect.
But being able to call it off, with an unquestioned legal position, would be a boost. "You don't want us back in, arguing our deregulation stuff inside again, do you?"
At least if A50 could definitely be revoked, it would negate the latter possibility.
It's me new phone innit. must be improved predictive texting, I typed 'plan' & it came out with some unintelligible twaddle.Eric_WLothian wrote:I think you mean "A Plan"...tinybgoat wrote:
Agree with what you've said,
I think there's a need at this point to (while still accepting A50 will be declared) at least stand against T.May's claims that everyone is coming together & are impatient for process to start. Maybe pushing for clarity on whether process is revocable, and/or scope of parliamentary vote, referendum or election at the end would be useful, possibly refusing to vote for triggering article 50 until answer is determined.
Labour probably wouldn't have numbers to make this work, but it would be an important principal & maybe help show some support for remain whilst not going against referendum result.
And that's the trouble. Whatever May & Co might say they want, the EU can offer anything between the two extremes I suggested above - and say take it or leave it. Signing A50 is a huge step in the dark and if it's not revocable we're at the mercy of the 27 states, without any credible negotiating position whatsoever.Tubby Isaacs wrote:They're not the ones looking and behaving like nationalist frothers. They can make offers, sincerely, or not, and we'll make arses of ourselves.Eric_WLothian wrote:They could, of course, offer a deal which involved us staying a member, perhaps with some trivial concession to save face all round. Trouble is, they could take the opposite view and just say f*** off (diplomatically, of course).Tubby Isaacs wrote:Gilsey is right. The EU would find a way to call it off, and I think offers will be made to that effect.
But being able to call it off, with an unquestioned legal position, would be a boost. "You don't want us back in, arguing our deregulation stuff inside again, do you?"
At least if A50 could definitely be revoked, it would negate the latter possibility.
They can also do a good cop-bad cop with the two negotiators. Verhofstadt representing the Parliament could be the good one, blah blah our British MEP colleagues are sensible pragmatic people, deals to be done, blah, blah.
