Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd January 2017

[AngryAsWell]

apologies for the upper case.

I thought we'd lost you to the kippers there.....

[tinyclanger2]

It was Corbyn. I was frothing so rabidly about him I hit the caps key by mistake.

[RogerOThornhill]

Wait. What?

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

H.R. 193, if allowed to pass, calls for WITHDRAWAL by the U.S. from the U.N., an org put in place after WWII to prevent future world wars.

[AngryAsWell]

Wait. What?

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

H.R. 193, if allowed to pass, calls for WITHDRAWAL by the U.S. from the U.N., an org put in place after WWII to prevent future world wars.

The above is a link to Doonsebury. Is that right?

[AngryAsWell]

Graham Jones MPVerified account
‏@GrahamJones_MP

The Tories are abt to make £6.85m cuts to Hyndburn schools. Search below for data on your local school &respond http://www.schoolcuts.org.uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
All our local schools are on the list, cuts from 7% to 13%
How on earth can we combat what these vandals are doing ? - ever. We can never put it right.

[tinyclanger2]

President Trump could be in breach of an Act of Congress when he deletes tweets and edits typos without archiving them.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 40366.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[tinyclanger2]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 40221.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Wake up and smell the Brexit: Weak pound prompts price of Nestlé coffee to rise 14%

[AngryAsWell]

Outsider 'comes first' in French Socialists presidential primary

http://news.sky.com/story/outsider-come ... y-10739473" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Start of the lefts fight back? fingers crossed

[AngryAsWell]

George Magnus
‏@georgemagnus1
1. UK/US free trade agreement (fta) causing bit of a stir, so let's see where this goes. Lots of legal delays and notifications likely
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thread well worth reading

[tinyclanger2]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/art ... 40666.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Yvette Cooper compared MPs like me who plan to vote against Article 50 to Trump – here’s why she is wrong
It is clear the Conservatives are not only using the referendum to ditch Europe but to ditch our entire post-war political consensus of a mixed economy and decent public services for all

We who campaigned for Remain must respect the result of the referendum. However, I don't remember anyone saying, as Theresa May now does, that we would leave the single market and the customs union without a deal in place to allow British businesses to export to the EU. Nor do I remember anyone saying that if we left the EU it would be to become a low-tax, low-regulation, small-government off-shore island of the sort Chancellor Phillip Hammond is now advocating. I do, however, remember a bus with a promise painted on its side of an extra £350m per week for the NHS if we voted Leave.

Quite.

[howsillyofme1]

Exactly.
Triggering it BEFORE WE KNOW WHAT IT ALL MIGHT MEAN should be opposed by the opposition (et al) and any sane Tory (including Leavers).

Look at it from the side that won the referendum....the referendum that the Government promised would be enacted....never was it said that there were any caveats

From your side it makes sense to delay if for as long as you can but from the people who won the referendum it doesn't.....and to be fair why should they have to wait? Why should they wait to know whether it can be revoked or not seeing they voted to Leave? They could rightly say that any competent Government would have sorted this out before the referendum

The natural consequence of the referendum result it to trigger A50.......

If you want to stop A50 the only way I would personally accept it being delayed are that it is backed up by another referendum or a Parliamentary vote delays it (assuming the SC go the way expected)

The first will be impossible and the second is not at all likely on the Parliamentary arithmetic, unless 20 Tory rebels can be found (even Soubry will vote for it)

Democracy sucks sometimes....people make stupid decisions, such as giving Cameron an overall majority......perhaps we should oppose that result as well seeing that he misled during the campaign. Unfortunately, we have to live with the consequences of the decision - trying to find someone to blame is natural but taking it out on the Labour Party is misguided in my view -put the blame where it lies....an incompetent Tory Party and its leaders.

The Labour Party I expect will not attempt to delay the vote or deny the referendum result but they can make their position clear and challenge the Government throughout the process. It is this I will judge them on (apparently the use of this verb now is defined as 'acting like God' but I will use it anyway). I do not expect them to oppose invoking of A50

From my personal point of view it is also a bit rich of people who have used the EU referendum result in a cynical attempt to remove the leader and undermine him to them complain that he isn't providing effective opposition - his position in the eyes of the electorate has been undermined by people in his own party. For as much some people here blame Corbyn, I blame the incompetents who couldn't even manage to replace him......

[tinyclanger2]

We don't "have" to live with the consequences of it.
This isn't the laws of physics we're talking about overturning; merely stupid decisions. It's about political will.

Has anyone tried yet arguing that we should stay? Tried to tell a different version of the EU story? Not really. It's more: Oh dear we've gone and made a catastrophic decision, but people might not like us if we mention it. So we won't.

[howsillyofme1]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/art ... 40666.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Yvette Cooper compared MPs like me who plan to vote against Article 50 to Trump – here’s why she is wrong
It is clear the Conservatives are not only using the referendum to ditch Europe but to ditch our entire post-war political consensus of a mixed economy and decent public services for all

We who campaigned for Remain must respect the result of the referendum. However, I don't remember anyone saying, as Theresa May now does, that we would leave the single market and the customs union without a deal in place to allow British businesses to export to the EU. Nor do I remember anyone saying that if we left the EU it would be to become a low-tax, low-regulation, small-government off-shore island of the sort Chancellor Phillip Hammond is now advocating. I do, however, remember a bus with a promise painted on its side of an extra £350m per week for the NHS if we voted Leave.

Quite.

Yvette Cooper is wrong - people should be allowed to vote against A50 if they feel that but an individual is different from what the party itself decides to do

And to play Devil's advocate......voting to Leave means to leave the single market and the customs union......if you want to stay in the single market then the best option is to have voted remain surely?

The fact is we do not know absolutely what motivated people - there have been polls but they are contradictory. That is why I opposed a referendum and supported a party that didn't have it in the manifesto......the disaster that is arriving now was foreseeable...

[PaulfromYorkshire]

So it's great news that Benoit Hamon, dubbed "the French Jeremy Corbyn", is leading a comeback for the left in France?

[howsillyofme1]

We don't "have" to live with the consequences of it.
This isn't the laws of physics we're talking about overturning; merely stupid decisions. It's about political will.

Has anyone tried yet arguing that we should stay? Tried to tell a different version of the EU story? Not really. It's more: Oh dear we've gone and made a catastrophic decision, but people might not like us if we mention it. So we won't.

It is too late for that now.....just as it is too late to tell those voters in Michigan, Florida, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania what a mistake they made

You just have to hope that in time they realise the mistake and something happens that can mitigate it

You also need someone sympathetic in the media to help you get the story across.....and there is hardly anyone wanting to do that.....look how hard it is to get the NHS on the front page and that is a catastrophe now and affecting people at the moment, not just a catastrophe waiting to happen

[tinyclanger2]

FOOTBALL MAGIC.
(don't jinx it)

[AngryAsWell]

Graham Jones MPVerified account
‏@GrahamJones_MP

The Tories are abt to make £6.85m cuts to Hyndburn schools. Search below for data on your local school &respond http://www.schoolcuts.org.uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
All our local schools are on the list, cuts from 7% to 13%
How on earth can we combat what these vandals are doing ? - ever. We can never put it right.

Is your school on here Roger?

[tinyclanger2]

(soz, Caps key again)

[HindleA]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Martin Rowson on Donald Trump’s meeting with Theresa May

[tinyclanger2]

Of course it's not too late. It's not done yet. We should be going on about what the EU's done that's great and about what could be done to make it better. Tell a different story that changes the discussion.

[AngryAsWell]

So it's great news that Benoit Hamon, dubbed "the French Jeremy Corbyn", is leading a comeback for the left in France?

With all that's been going on over here and USA I've not really followed French politics for a while, and even before not that closely, so not at all sure what his politics are. But - to be flippant - he's both young(ish 49) and not bad looking....and probably not carrying too much baggage.

[HindleA]

http://www.nottinghampost.com/governmen ... story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Government confirm HS2 cannot buy land not linked to building of the line

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Of course it's not too late. It's not done yet. We should be going on about what the EU's done that's great and about what could be done to make it better. Tell a different story that changes the discussion.

Spot on.

And of course the EU itself is a dynamic (though often not dynamic enough!) organisation itself. Who know what the EU will look like by the time we are due to leave?

[Tubby Isaacs]

I thought Jean-Luc Melenchon was the French Jeremy Corbyn.

[howsillyofme1]

Of course it's not too late. It's not done yet. We should be going on about what the EU's done that's great and about what could be done to make it better. Tell a different story that changes the discussion.

I phrased it badly....it is not too late for us to have an alternative outcome but we have to realise the electorate is not with us yet. I do not think a delay to A50 invocation will do anything to help our cause in the medium to long term

The catastrophic damage to the economy has not happened yet and inflation is not making an impact yet. In a year or two's time I would guess that this will no longer be the case

At the right moment then the advocates of Remain need to be ready to make the case that leaving is too high a price and we should do everything in our power to stay. I would expect Labour to do that if it comes to pass

If the electorate are still focused (irrationally in my view) on sovereignty and immigration then this may never come to pass.....and it is not helped by Labour MPs fanning the fires under the immigration question - no Free Movement = No Single Market

We als have to be aware that the world will change in the next two years....and I do not think many people here are assuming it will be for the better.....where comes threats , also come opportunities and we may be able to use that in our favour.

[ChrisDean]

Oh, for heaven's sake, NZ Lamb and Butter are far, far superior to that Welsh stuff. Can't believe that there are those of you that want home produced stuff...the Home & Colonial Stores in Monmouth were a delight to behold.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Of course it's not too late. It's not done yet. We should be going on about what the EU's done that's great and about what could be done to make it better. Tell a different story that changes the discussion.

Spot on.

And of course the EU itself is a dynamic (though often not dynamic enough!) organisation itself. Who know what the EU will look like by the time we are due to leave?

I've never understood what the EU (as opposed to the Eurozone) is supposed to be doing wrong, really. You can be like Denmark in the EU. Sounds all right to me. The EU doesn't really care if you're like Ireland or Denmark, as long as you implement the stuff you've agreed and are solvent.

It's likely to be the same sort of EU as now, with the major players looking over their shoulders worried at Kippers- Fascists. And being pissed off they have to waste their time dealing with us.

[AngryAsWell]

I thought Jean-Luc Melenchon was the French Jeremy Corbyn.

Just looking them up, it's all very confusing with one of the candidate being described as "He's a Tony Blair of 20 years ago," Hamon said dismissively.

Not over yet, another round to go ( I think)

http://www.thelocal.fr/20170122/valls-a ... al-results" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[howsillyofme1]

Oh and by the way....outside the Brexit bubble

The PM refused to answer 6 straightforward questions today, even when posed by that most supine of interviewers Marr - including 4 times on whether she covered up a trident missile malfunction just before a vote in the HoC

And Corbyn was up in Copeland supporting a candidate (who is either Hard Left or anti-Corbyn 'moderate' depending on which Guardian story you read) focusing on the hospital in Whitehaven and the disaster going on in Local Government and the NHS. Anatoly will know better but I have a friend up there who is incensed about the NHS situation in that part of the world

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But, even according to so-called Labour supporters (or Plaid, Lib Dem, Green depending on the latest trend) one of these is a great example of a leader and one isn't!

[PaulfromYorkshire]

So it's great news that Benoit Hamon, dubbed "the French Jeremy Corbyn", is leading a comeback for the left in France?

With all that's been going on over here and USA I've not really followed French politics for a while, and even before not that closely, so not at all sure what his politics are. But - to be flippant - he's both young(ish 49) and not bad looking....and probably not carrying too much baggage.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... ntial-race" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

french-jeremy-corbyn-benoit-hamon-gains-ground-presidential-race

[Willow904]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/art ... 40666.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Yvette Cooper compared MPs like me who plan to vote against Article 50 to Trump – here’s why she is wrong
It is clear the Conservatives are not only using the referendum to ditch Europe but to ditch our entire post-war political consensus of a mixed economy and decent public services for all

We who campaigned for Remain must respect the result of the referendum. However, I don't remember anyone saying, as Theresa May now does, that we would leave the single market and the customs union without a deal in place to allow British businesses to export to the EU. Nor do I remember anyone saying that if we left the EU it would be to become a low-tax, low-regulation, small-government off-shore island of the sort Chancellor Phillip Hammond is now advocating. I do, however, remember a bus with a promise painted on its side of an extra £350m per week for the NHS if we voted Leave.

Quite.

Yvette Cooper is wrong - people should be allowed to vote against A50 if they feel that but an individual is different from what the party itself decides to do

And to play Devil's advocate......voting to Leave means to leave the single market and the customs union......if you want to stay in the single market then the best option is to have voted remain surely?

The fact is we do not know absolutely what motivated people - there have been polls but they are contradictory. That is why I opposed a referendum and supported a party that didn't have it in the manifesto......the disaster that is arriving now was foreseeable...

Many leave campaigners specifically argued that leaving the EU didn't mean leaving the single market. Indeed, they very deliberately gave very little information on what leave would mean at all. They specifically lied about spending £350m a week on the NHS. Supporting the triggering of article 50 following the lies of the referendum campaign and Theresa May's "plan" of withdrawal from the single market and a hard Brexit, with no opportunity for the public to change their minds, isn't supporting democracy, it's supporting a con. The Tories aren't honourable, they won't allow any debate or rethink, they will simply control the media message, convince the public that hard Brexit is The Only Way and if the progressives won't combat that with their own narrative that the best option is the single market option and soon, the Tories and their right wing friends in the media will have that message imbedded in the minds of the public as squarely as they had them convinced that the global economic crash was Gordon Brown's fault and "austerity" was the only way to fix it.

But yeah, sit back and say nothing, and I'm sure people convinced by Murdoch to vote leave will suddenly decide all by themselves that May's got it wrong and we should try to stay in the single market and will punish the Tories accordingly when we don't.

Sorry to be blunt, but the Tories rely on the left to be honourable patsies and we never let them down, do we? Playing it straight when they cheat and lie and win. Every bloody time.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Yeah, the process always throws up far too many candidates. Even with these primaries, they'll be the Communist and the Greens on the left too. They then wonder why Marine Le Pen's likely to come in the first two.

This is odd.

Hamon has performed strongly in the three TV debates of a short campaign, attracting attention with his proposal to pay the poor and 18 to 25-year-olds a "universal income" rising from 600 euros to 750 euros ($640 to $800) a month -- an idea dismissed as ruinously expensive by Montebourg.

It's not universal if it only goes to these groups, is it?

[HindleA]

http://press.labour.org.uk/post/1561819 ... government" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Labour Press
Sarah Champion MP’s response to government announcement on child tax credits for rape victims

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Yeah, the process always throws up far too many candidates. Even with these primaries, they'll be the Communist and the Greens on the left too. They then wonder why Marine Le Pen's likely to come in the first two.

This is odd.

Hamon has performed strongly in the three TV debates of a short campaign, attracting attention with his proposal to pay the poor and 18 to 25-year-olds a "universal income" rising from 600 euros to 750 euros ($640 to $800) a month -- an idea dismissed as ruinously expensive by Montebourg.

It's not universal if it only goes to these groups, is it?

It's badly written isn't it?

Everyone gets it, but only those groups need the subsidy.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

A more depressing take on it from Eaton

George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton
Low turnout in French Socialist primary (1.5m vs. 2.7m in 2011) another mark of centre-left decline.

[HindleA]

States "all" here.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 30771.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Willow904]

Incidentally, Labour could be jumping up and down about the lies in the referendum campaign, they could be arguing the merits of staying in the single market over a hard Brexit, without even going so far as saying they'll vote against article 50, but they're not even doing that much. Why not? Where's the anger? Where's the arguments to show how much the Tories are on the brink of stuffing up big time? All I hear is, we have to wait for now. Wait for what? For the majority who supported staying in the single market directly after the referendum to be whittled away by May's rhetoric and her supporters in the right wing press? That majority is already being chipped away. Waiting for the economy to falter before saying anything will be way too late to start to make the arguments for the single market, just as Labour left it way too late to try to turn the austerity juggernaut last time. If no one champions the single market, voters will accept May's assertion that Brexit has to mean leaving it. Farron can't do it alone.

[howsillyofme1]

Quite.

Yvette Cooper is wrong - people should be allowed to vote against A50 if they feel that but an individual is different from what the party itself decides to do

And to play Devil's advocate......voting to Leave means to leave the single market and the customs union......if you want to stay in the single market then the best option is to have voted remain surely?

The fact is we do not know absolutely what motivated people - there have been polls but they are contradictory. That is why I opposed a referendum and supported a party that didn't have it in the manifesto......the disaster that is arriving now was foreseeable...

Many leave campaigners specifically argued that leaving the EU didn't mean leaving the single market. Indeed, they very deliberately gave very little information on what leave would mean at all. They specifically lied about spending £350m a week on the NHS. Supporting the triggering of article 50 following the lies of the referendum campaign and Theresa May's "plan" of withdrawal from the single market and a hard Brexit, with no opportunity for the public to change their minds, isn't supporting democracy, it's supporting a con. The Tories aren't honourable, they won't allow any debate or rethink, they will simply control the media message, convince the public that hard Brexit is The Only Way and if the progressives won't combat that with their own narrative that the best option is the single market option and soon, the Tories and their right wing friends in the media will have that message imbedded in the minds of the public as squarely as they had them convinced that the global economic crash was Gordon Brown's fault and "austerity" was the only way to fix it.

But yeah, sit back and say nothing, and I'm sure people convinced by Murdoch to vote leave will suddenly decide all by themselves that May's got it wrong and we should try to stay in the single market and will punish the Tories accordingly when we don't.

Sorry to be blunt, but the Tories rely on the left to be honourable patsies and we never let them down, do we? Playing it straight when they cheat and lie and win. Every bloody time.

Don't apologise for being blunt....I never do and it is often the best approach

The Leave campaign lied,,,,simple. Just as Cameron did in 2015 and, in my view, Blair did when talking about Iraq, and Maggie did about the miners. With many other examples.

The problem is there is no way to go back

The EU is not a left/right argument....there are arguments I understand for why the left do not like the EU and why some on the right will love it......in the end by internationalist instincts prefer to be In than Out but I am not a complete fan (7/10 would be my most optimistic view)

I also have never said 'sit back and say nothing' - it is just when the timing is right to say something and I do not think there is an audience for saying what I think is right. We can start making the arguments now but we should not expect traction for at least a year or so

I do not agree with your comments on 'supporting a con' - I think that is unfair. It is one of the risks of democracy, especially referenda and that is why they should be used carefully. The time to speak out and act was actually when the referendum bill was going through and that time was missed

I really am missing something here....how exactly are you going to get the electorate to change their minds and by what mechanism would you measure it before A50 is invoked? A second referendum , a YouGov opinion poll, a voodoo poll from Sunderland, a GE fought on a single issue? Can't see it myself

I think we are actually agree on the outcome we need and what we should try to do to get it, it is just the timing that is different

[Tubby Isaacs]

But yeah, sit back and say nothing, and I'm sure people convinced by Murdoch to vote leave will suddenly decide all by themselves that May's got it wrong and we should try to stay in the single market and will punish the Tories accordingly when we don't.

Sorry to be blunt, but the Tories rely on the left to be honourable patsies and we never let them down, do we? Playing it straight when they cheat and lie and win. Every bloody time.

Yep.

The Government is the one at the table. It'll have far all the information, and can set traps all the way through with leaks and complete lies. It'll control the domestic news agenda.

You have to get established right up that you aren't on board.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Incidentally, Labour could be jumping up and down about the lies in the referendum campaign, they could be arguing the merits of staying in the single market over a hard Brexit, without even going so far as saying they'll vote against article 50, but they're not even doing that much. Why not? Where's the anger? Where's the arguments to show how much the Tories are on the brink of stuffing up big time? All I hear is, we have to wait for now. Wait for what? For the majority who supported staying in the single market directly after the referendum to be whittled away by May's rhetoric and her supporters in the right wing press? That majority is already being chipped away. Waiting for the economy to falter before saying anything will be way too late to start to make the arguments for the single market, just as Labour left it way too late to try to turn the austerity juggernaut last time. If no one champions the single market, voters will accept May's assertion that Brexit has to mean leaving it. Farron can't do it alone.

Godot, by the look of it.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Yeah, the process always throws up far too many candidates. Even with these primaries, they'll be the Communist and the Greens on the left too. They then wonder why Marine Le Pen's likely to come in the first two.

This is odd.

Hamon has performed strongly in the three TV debates of a short campaign, attracting attention with his proposal to pay the poor and 18 to 25-year-olds a "universal income" rising from 600 euros to 750 euros ($640 to $800) a month -- an idea dismissed as ruinously expensive by Montebourg.

It's not universal if it only goes to these groups, is it?

It's badly written isn't it?

Everyone gets it, but only those groups need the subsidy.

That sounds like means tested benefits.

[Eric_WLothian]

Many leave campaigners specifically argued that leaving the EU didn't mean leaving the single market. Indeed, they very deliberately gave very little information on what leave would mean at all. They specifically lied about spending £350m a week on the NHS. Supporting the triggering of article 50 following the lies of the referendum campaign and Theresa May's "plan" of withdrawal from the single market and a hard Brexit, with no opportunity for the public to change their minds, isn't supporting democracy, it's supporting a con. The Tories aren't honourable, they won't allow any debate or rethink, they will simply control the media message, convince the public that hard Brexit is The Only Way and if the progressives won't combat that with their own narrative that the best option is the single market option and soon, the Tories and their right wing friends in the media will have that message imbedded in the minds of the public as squarely as they had them convinced that the global economic crash was Gordon Brown's fault and "austerity" was the only way to fix it.

But yeah, sit back and say nothing, and I'm sure people convinced by Murdoch to vote leave will suddenly decide all by themselves that May's got it wrong and we should try to stay in the single market and will punish the Tories accordingly when we don't.

Sorry to be blunt, but the Tories rely on the left to be honourable patsies and we never let them down, do we? Playing it straight when they cheat and lie and win. Every bloody time.

If the Tories/Brexiters continue to peddle the story that hard Brexit is pretty much inevitable, they will be in a position to take the credit for any concessions that may be offered, irrespective of the inevitable losses. (No post-Brexit deal can be as advantageous as full membership imo).

Until the Remainers publicise the many benefits of membership, they will be in no position to focus on what we will be losing if a deal is offered. That might sound a bit negative but we need to air both sides of the argument - and that is not, as far as I can see, happening.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Yeah, the process always throws up far too many candidates. Even with these primaries, they'll be the Communist and the Greens on the left too. They then wonder why Marine Le Pen's likely to come in the first two.

This is odd.
It's not universal if it only goes to these groups, is it?

It's badly written isn't it?

Everyone gets it, but only those groups need the subsidy.

That sounds like means tested benefits.

I haven't really followed the Universal Income idea, but I think you don't have to claim it. You just get it. Presumably it's then deducted from your salary once you exceed it.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Oh, for heaven's sake, NZ Lamb and Butter are far, far superior to that Welsh stuff. Can't believe that there are those of you that want home produced stuff...the Home & Colonial Stores in Monmouth were a delight to behold.

And of course our farmers have been long term supporters of the Kipper-Tory mess that brought us here. I don't eat lamb, but the way I feel at the moment, I'll buy the NZ butter on principle. Or perhaps Irish butter, whose farmers didn't have any say in Brexit and could be ruined by it.

[AngryAsWell]

Oh, for heaven's sake, NZ Lamb and Butter are far, far superior to that Welsh stuff. Can't believe that there are those of you that want home produced stuff...the Home & Colonial Stores in Monmouth were a delight to behold.

Cries loudly : Will no one think of the English!?

http://swillingtonorganicfarm.co.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(other small farm shops are available...)

[howsillyofme1]

Incidentally, Labour could be jumping up and down about the lies in the referendum campaign, they could be arguing the merits of staying in the single market over a hard Brexit, without even going so far as saying they'll vote against article 50, but they're not even doing that much. Why not? Where's the anger? Where's the arguments to show how much the Tories are on the brink of stuffing up big time? All I hear is, we have to wait for now. Wait for what? For the majority who supported staying in the single market directly after the referendum to be whittled away by May's rhetoric and her supporters in the right wing press? That majority is already being chipped away. Waiting for the economy to falter before saying anything will be way too late to start to make the arguments for the single market, just as Labour left it way too late to try to turn the austerity juggernaut last time. If no one champions the single market, voters will accept May's assertion that Brexit has to mean leaving it. Farron can't do it alone.

They could and should be doing more I agree, and I am hoping we see more once the SC decision is through, the A50 debate is had and the negotiations are started.

The question of timing is still important though and not showing your hand too early is also sometimes wise - the press will jump on anything the Labour leadership says and portray it in a negative light

I am prepared to give them time to make their case because, as I have kept emphasising, A50 invoking is going to happen by the end of the March unless something comes out of leftfield.

The Tories are doing the same actually but it is just being reported differently - May's speech was portrayed as something it wasn't whilst Starmer's initial setting out of Labour's principles was ignored

Oh, and then we have the fact that whatever the leadership do there will be some in the PLP who will disagree and be on to the press. Corbyn says something positive about immigration then Jarvis and Mann are out there saying he is making a mistake, says something negative about the Single Market then it is someone else. Until the party starts speaking with one voice it is difficult to make a credible point....and some of this is, I agree, also down to the leadership

As to the economy.....remember the doom laden predictions of Osborne? Until people are personally affected then they will not react. The NHS is up shit creek, social care is on its knees, housing is in crisis but still the Tories are ahead in the polls......and they are the ones responsible for this disaster

I wish we could convince the electorate of the mistake they are making but until something happens then they won't accept it....as you keep saying the whole country is in some sort of irrational place at the moment.

[HindleA]

One of the many problems,it sounds simple,it'll take about a decade to decide what it is.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Meanwhile back on Brexit....

Can anyone here relate a time when they actually persuaded somebody with the force of their arguments to change their mind?

[refitman]

Quite.

Yvette Cooper is wrong - people should be allowed to vote against A50 if they feel that but an individual is different from what the party itself decides to do

And to play Devil's advocate......voting to Leave means to leave the single market and the customs union......if you want to stay in the single market then the best option is to have voted remain surely?

The fact is we do not know absolutely what motivated people - there have been polls but they are contradictory. That is why I opposed a referendum and supported a party that didn't have it in the manifesto......the disaster that is arriving now was foreseeable...

Many leave campaigners specifically argued that leaving the EU didn't mean leaving the single market. Indeed, they very deliberately gave very little information on what leave would mean at all. They specifically lied about spending £350m a week on the NHS. Supporting the triggering of article 50 following the lies of the referendum campaign and Theresa May's "plan" of withdrawal from the single market and a hard Brexit, with no opportunity for the public to change their minds, isn't supporting democracy, it's supporting a con. The Tories aren't honourable, they won't allow any debate or rethink, they will simply control the media message, convince the public that hard Brexit is The Only Way and if the progressives won't combat that with their own narrative that the best option is the single market option and soon, the Tories and their right wing friends in the media will have that message imbedded in the minds of the public as squarely as they had them convinced that the global economic crash was Gordon Brown's fault and "austerity" was the only way to fix it.

But yeah, sit back and say nothing, and I'm sure people convinced by Murdoch to vote leave will suddenly decide all by themselves that May's got it wrong and we should try to stay in the single market and will punish the Tories accordingly when we don't.

Sorry to be blunt, but the Tories rely on the left to be honourable patsies and we never let them down, do we? Playing it straight when they cheat and lie and win. Every bloody time.

What's that about leaving the single market?
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[Eric_WLothian]

Oh, for heaven's sake, NZ Lamb and Butter are far, far superior to that Welsh stuff. Can't believe that there are those of you that want home produced stuff...the Home & Colonial Stores in Monmouth were a delight to behold.

Cries loudly : Will no one think of the English!?

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(other small farm shops are available...)

Is 'Chernobyl lamb' from the Scottish Borders still available?