Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd January 2017

[tinyclanger2]

Things in this context won't happen. They must be MADE to happen. This is my point.

(Caps AGAIN soz)
(and soz AGAIN)
(etc)

[PaulfromYorkshire]

In the real world what we do if we want to influence people is to respect their views, but to gently tell stories, model alternatives, explain our values to them. We retain their trust and listen to their point of view.

[AngryAsWell]

Please don't let Ireland be kicking off again

PSNI officer shot in north Belfast
DUP leader Arlene Foster brands shooting 'the work of cowards'

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/ ... 88629.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[howsillyofme1]

Many leave campaigners specifically argued that leaving the EU didn't mean leaving the single market. Indeed, they very deliberately gave very little information on what leave would mean at all. They specifically lied about spending £350m a week on the NHS. Supporting the triggering of article 50 following the lies of the referendum campaign and Theresa May's "plan" of withdrawal from the single market and a hard Brexit, with no opportunity for the public to change their minds, isn't supporting democracy, it's supporting a con. The Tories aren't honourable, they won't allow any debate or rethink, they will simply control the media message, convince the public that hard Brexit is The Only Way and if the progressives won't combat that with their own narrative that the best option is the single market option and soon, the Tories and their right wing friends in the media will have that message imbedded in the minds of the public as squarely as they had them convinced that the global economic crash was Gordon Brown's fault and "austerity" was the only way to fix it.

But yeah, sit back and say nothing, and I'm sure people convinced by Murdoch to vote leave will suddenly decide all by themselves that May's got it wrong and we should try to stay in the single market and will punish the Tories accordingly when we don't.

Sorry to be blunt, but the Tories rely on the left to be honourable patsies and we never let them down, do we? Playing it straight when they cheat and lie and win. Every bloody time.

If the Tories/Brexiters continue to peddle the story that hard Brexit is pretty much inevitable, they will be in a position to take the credit for any concessions that may be offered, irrespective of the inevitable losses. (No post-Brexit deal can be as advantageous as full membership imo).

Until the Remainers publicise the many benefits of membership, they will be in no position to focus on what we will be losing if a deal is offered. That might sound a bit negative but we need to air both sides of the argument - and that is not, as far as I can see, happening.

I think the Remainers are trying to do this, it is just not being reported, and if it is it is cast in a negative light

I have tried it myself, and you have immigration and 'getting our country back' is thrown back at you. Try the economy argument then most reply that the economy is doing fine, best in Europe, and anyway all the problems are due to Labour overspending 10 years ago (yes that is still the one that keeps coming back again and again). Mention the NHS then there is no real blame on the Government - it is due to us not being able to afford it again

We have to accept I think that the British people may not actually be in the same place we are and see things in the way we do. They have been lied to about so many things for so long that making a coherent, rational argument about the benefits of the EU is falling on deaf ears.

Even people who voted remain are speaking the same language as those who voted leave

Sad but, in my experience, true

Doesn't mean we do not try but i think there is too much optimism on what we can achieve without a 'burning' bridge

[refitman]

Oh, for heaven's sake, NZ Lamb and Butter are far, far superior to that Welsh stuff. Can't believe that there are those of you that want home produced stuff...the Home & Colonial Stores in Monmouth were a delight to behold.

Cries loudly : Will no one think of the English!?

http://swillingtonorganicfarm.co.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(other small farm shops are available...)

Is 'Chernobyl lamb' from the Scottish Borders still available?

It comes pre-cooked?

[AngryAsWell]

Oh, for heaven's sake, NZ Lamb and Butter are far, far superior to that Welsh stuff. Can't believe that there are those of you that want home produced stuff...the Home & Colonial Stores in Monmouth were a delight to behold.

Cries loudly : Will no one think of the English!?

http://swillingtonorganicfarm.co.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(other small farm shops are available...)

Is 'Chernobyl lamb' from the Scottish Borders still available?

Is that the ready cooked lamb? <---------- (this is a "joke", I hope people don't think it's in poor taste)

[tinyclanger2]

In the real world what we do if we want to influence people is to respect their views, but to gently tell stories, model alternatives, explain our values to them. We retain their trust and listen to their point of view.

Well that's one way. But am not sure it's the Arron Banks or Donald Trump way.

[howsillyofme1]

Yvette Cooper is wrong - people should be allowed to vote against A50 if they feel that but an individual is different from what the party itself decides to do

And to play Devil's advocate......voting to Leave means to leave the single market and the customs union......if you want to stay in the single market then the best option is to have voted remain surely?

The fact is we do not know absolutely what motivated people - there have been polls but they are contradictory. That is why I opposed a referendum and supported a party that didn't have it in the manifesto......the disaster that is arriving now was foreseeable...

Many leave campaigners specifically argued that leaving the EU didn't mean leaving the single market. Indeed, they very deliberately gave very little information on what leave would mean at all. They specifically lied about spending £350m a week on the NHS. Supporting the triggering of article 50 following the lies of the referendum campaign and Theresa May's "plan" of withdrawal from the single market and a hard Brexit, with no opportunity for the public to change their minds, isn't supporting democracy, it's supporting a con. The Tories aren't honourable, they won't allow any debate or rethink, they will simply control the media message, convince the public that hard Brexit is The Only Way and if the progressives won't combat that with their own narrative that the best option is the single market option and soon, the Tories and their right wing friends in the media will have that message imbedded in the minds of the public as squarely as they had them convinced that the global economic crash was Gordon Brown's fault and "austerity" was the only way to fix it.

But yeah, sit back and say nothing, and I'm sure people convinced by Murdoch to vote leave will suddenly decide all by themselves that May's got it wrong and we should try to stay in the single market and will punish the Tories accordingly when we don't.

Sorry to be blunt, but the Tories rely on the left to be honourable patsies and we never let them down, do we? Playing it straight when they cheat and lie and win. Every bloody time.

What's that about leaving the single market?
[youtube]0xGt3QmRSZY[/youtube]
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They are liars and the lied to win

Do they care...no. Do the leave voters care....no, not really I don't think

[tinyclanger2]

I hate to say it PfY but some people don't give a flying **** about values.
They have self interest. You have to appeal to that.

[howsillyofme1]

In the real world what we do if we want to influence people is to respect their views, but to gently tell stories, model alternatives, explain our values to them. We retain their trust and listen to their point of view.

Well that's one way. But am not sure it's the Arron Banks or Donald Trump way.

So we should use these as our role models?

Liars and bullies?

There have been left-wing populists before and they get short shrift from 'moderates'

[PaulfromYorkshire]

In the real world what we do if we want to influence people is to respect their views, but to gently tell stories, model alternatives, explain our values to them. We retain their trust and listen to their point of view.

Well that's one way. But am not sure it's the Arron Banks or Donald Trump way.

[howsillyofme1]

I hate to say it PfY but some people don't give a flying **** about values.
They have self interest. You have to appeal to that.

That was tried with 'Project Fear' - how did that work out?

If what you say doesn't come to pass then you have lost credibility....and that is why it is so hard to get traction!

[tinyclanger2]

In the real world what we do if we want to influence people is to respect their views, but to gently tell stories, model alternatives, explain our values to them. We retain their trust and listen to their point of view.

Well that's one way. But am not sure it's the Arron Banks or Donald Trump way.

So we should use these as our role models?

Liars and bullies?

There have been left-wing populists before and they get short shrift from 'moderates'

We need to use what works. There are different people to reach and they need to be reached in different ways. Some people will respond to Paul's approach; some will respond to others. As with anything.

[ChrisDean]

Whatever you say on here it will have sweet FA to do with anything in the big wild world out there.

Enjoy, however xx

[AngryAsWell]

In the real world what we do if we want to influence people is to respect their views, but to gently tell stories, model alternatives, explain our values to them. We retain their trust and listen to their point of view.

I swung 2 neighbours to vote for Ed by sitting them down to watch Ed's speeches on YouTube, and I person in the market cafe to remain by talking over what leaving would mean to the economy & young people - and what it could do to their pocket during their annual trip though Europe via the (potential) cost of visa's for each country they visit.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

I hate to say it PfY but some people don't give a flying **** about values.
They have self interest. You have to appeal to that.

I agree about the self interest. that's where the listening comes in. And I think that's a huge missing step here. Nobody really knows why people voted Leave, not least many of the people who did!

But what we all want here is for people to change their minds. How will that happen? That's where the values come in. I don't believe Tim Farron will change a single person's mind. And that's fine for him because he's not seeking a majority.

"Ordinary" people who voted Leave will change their minds when they observe people they trust modelling an alternative way of thinking. People whose values they respect.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

In the real world what we do if we want to influence people is to respect their views, but to gently tell stories, model alternatives, explain our values to them. We retain their trust and listen to their point of view.

I swung 2 neighbours to vote for Ed by sitting them down to watch Ed's speeches on YouTube, and I person in the market cafe to remain by talking over what leaving would mean to the economy & young people - and what it could do to their pocket during their annual trip though Europe via the (potential) cost of visa's for each country they visit.

nice stories - good for you

[howsillyofme1]

Well that's one way. But am not sure it's the Arron Banks or Donald Trump way.

So we should use these as our role models?

Liars and bullies?

There have been left-wing populists before and they get short shrift from 'moderates'

We need to use what works. There are different people to reach and they need to be reached in different ways. Some people will respond to Paul's approach; some will respond to others. As with anything.

Although I agree with much of what you are saying in principle, I do not think your approach will work as you hope (sorry but that is my view)

I do draw the line though of having a left-wing equivalent of Trump or Banks - and, as I said the EU is not a left/right thing, and cannot believe there is a pro-EU demagogue out there....and if there is it wouldn't be someone who was an advocate for the British 'opt-out' EU anyway. Non-starter

As for a left-wing populist, the one that comes to mind is Galloway....he was effective in the past but he was/is hated by most in the Labour Party so again cannot see that working

[tinyclanger2]

Whatever you say on here it will have sweet FA to do with anything in the big wild world out there.

Enjoy, however xx

Unless someone reads something here that makes them think: "oh!" and puts it into practice somewhere?

[HindleA]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... nt-misfire" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


MoD cannot fall back on usual excuses to explain Trident misfire
When opposition parties press for answers the government cannot dismiss this catastrophic test as trial and error

[tinyclanger2]

I am not suggesting we have a left wing Trump. I am merely observing what we are looking at with respect to communications/campaigning and noting that it will take different stories and different people telling them to reach different people with different views.

[Eric_WLothian]

I am not suggesting we have a left wing Trump. I am merely observing what we are looking at with respect to communications/campaigning and noting that it will take different stories and different people telling them to reach different people with different views.

Come back Alastair (Campbell)? Is Andy free? (Couls... no perhaps that's going too far).

[HindleA]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38713227" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Trump says Nafta 'renegotiations' with Mexico and Canada to start

[howsillyofme1]

I am not suggesting we have a left wing Trump. I am merely observing what we are looking at with respect to communications/campaigning and noting that it will take different stories and different people telling them to reach different people with different views.

And this is something I can agree with but where we disagree, I think, is the time it will take to be effective and I am still of the opinion it will take a 'burning bridge' to do so.

Who is trusted enough to reach large numbers of people at one? Not any politicians I think....and celebrities were used in the Remain campaign to very little effect.

The other option is for everybody who supports remain to try and convince people they know but, from experience, that take a lot of time and effort (time I do not really have to be honest), a lot of difficult discussions and a more than a bit of abuse

Even if we do this then how do we convert this into influencing a Government that does not care?

And it will also take at least the same time as the EU negotiations......people have been told things about the EU for a long time....

[HindleA]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/ec ... -gardeners" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



The new robot revolution will take the boss's job, not the gardener's
Advances in artificial intelligence mean a second wave of change is approaching – and it is not the low-paid service sector where jobs are most at risk

[PaulfromYorkshire]

I am not suggesting we have a left wing Trump. I am merely observing what we are looking at with respect to communications/campaigning and noting that it will take different stories and different people telling them to reach different people with different views.

Absolutely right. I'm genuinely glad that Farron is there staking out the strong Remain pitch. But it's evidently insufficient to win the day for Remain.

[Eric_WLothian]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/ec ... -gardeners



The new robot revolution will take the boss's job, not the gardener's
Advances in artificial intelligence mean a second wave of change is approaching – and it is not the low-paid service sector where jobs are most at risk

It's already started:
"Did you know about the Trident misfire?"
"Not programmed for that question. Press any key to continue".

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Good to see ChrisDean passing by

[tinyclanger2]

I am not suggesting we have a left wing Trump. I am merely observing what we are looking at with respect to communications/campaigning and noting that it will take different stories and different people telling them to reach different people with different views.

And this is something I can agree with but where we disagree, I think, is the time it will take to be effective and I am still of the opinion it will take a 'burning bridge' to do so.

Who is trusted enough to reach large numbers of people at one? Not any politicians I think....and celebrities were used in the Remain campaign to very little effect.

The other option is for everybody who supports remain to try and convince people they know but, from experience, that take a lot of time and effort (time I do not really have to be honest), a lot of difficult discussions and a more than a bit of abuse

Even if we do this then how do we convert this into influencing a Government that does not care?

And it will also take at least the same time as the EU negotiations......people have been told things about the EU for a long time....

Grass
Roots

[howsillyofme1]

I am not suggesting we have a left wing Trump. I am merely observing what we are looking at with respect to communications/campaigning and noting that it will take different stories and different people telling them to reach different people with different views.

Absolutely right. I'm genuinely glad that Farron is there staking out the strong Remain pitch. But it's evidently insufficient to win the day for Remain.

But I still don't understand (sorry if I am being a bit dense) how we convert this in stopping Brexit?

We talk about 'winning the day' - winning what? The referendum is past, only the SC can help us with A50 (by giving a veto to the devolved assemblies - can you imagine if they did this lol?) and there will be no need for approval of the final deal

Marches on the streets? Do we think we are going to convince people to do this?

The main impact on most people will not be seen until we have left...and then it will be too late

I am really sorry but I am struggling to see what 'winning' looks like in these scenarios

[howsillyofme1]

I am not suggesting we have a left wing Trump. I am merely observing what we are looking at with respect to communications/campaigning and noting that it will take different stories and different people telling them to reach different people with different views.

And this is something I can agree with but where we disagree, I think, is the time it will take to be effective and I am still of the opinion it will take a 'burning bridge' to do so.

Who is trusted enough to reach large numbers of people at one? Not any politicians I think....and celebrities were used in the Remain campaign to very little effect.

The other option is for everybody who supports remain to try and convince people they know but, from experience, that take a lot of time and effort (time I do not really have to be honest), a lot of difficult discussions and a more than a bit of abuse

Even if we do this then how do we convert this into influencing a Government that does not care?

And it will also take at least the same time as the EU negotiations......people have been told things about the EU for a long time....

Grass
Roots

and?

[refitman]

I am not suggesting we have a left wing Trump. I am merely observing what we are looking at with respect to communications/campaigning and noting that it will take different stories and different people telling them to reach different people with different views.

Come back Alastair (Campbell)? Is Andy free? (Couls... no perhaps that's going too far).

This is definitely one of the big problems at the moment. Labour's media management has been woeful since the election (and not that great before it). If there was one change I would make at the moment, it would be firing Seamus into the sun and hiring someone competent to do the job.

[HindleA]

http://www.poynter.org/2017/dont-ridicu ... em/445943/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Don’t ridicule ‘alternative facts.’ Fact-check them

[Eric_WLothian]

I am not suggesting we have a left wing Trump. I am merely observing what we are looking at with respect to communications/campaigning and noting that it will take different stories and different people telling them to reach different people with different views.

Come back Alastair (Campbell)? Is Andy free? (Couls... no perhaps that's going too far).

This is definitely one of the big problems at the moment. Labour's media management has been woeful since the election (and not that great before it). If there was one change I would make at the moment, it would be firing Seamus into the sun and hiring someone competent to do the job.

Yes - I wasn't entirely joking. Whatever you may think of him, he was a competent professional with the right contacts in the press. The LP desperately need someone with his skills/background.

[tinyclanger2]

And this is something I can agree with but where we disagree, I think, is the time it will take to be effective and I am still of the opinion it will take a 'burning bridge' to do so.

Who is trusted enough to reach large numbers of people at one? Not any politicians I think....and celebrities were used in the Remain campaign to very little effect.

The other option is for everybody who supports remain to try and convince people they know but, from experience, that take a lot of time and effort (time I do not really have to be honest), a lot of difficult discussions and a more than a bit of abuse

Even if we do this then how do we convert this into influencing a Government that does not care?

And it will also take at least the same time as the EU negotiations......people have been told things about the EU for a long time....

Grass
Roots

and?

As I say - there is no one size fits all vis a vis

Who is trusted enough to reach large numbers of people at one?

So the people who will be trusted enough to reach large numbers will be many people, not one. And it needs local initiatives - beyond door stopping. As well as better regional and national press. I don't have detailed plans but communication is a key area we should be addressing. And it will take multiple efforts at multiple levels.

[howsillyofme1]

Grass
Roots

and?

As I say - there is no one size fits all vis a vis

Who is trusted enough to reach large numbers of people at one?

So the people who will be trusted enough to reach large numbers will be many people, not one. And it needs local initiatives - beyond door stopping. As well as better regional and national press. I don't have detailed plans but communication is a key area we should be addressing. And it will take multiple efforts at multiple levels.

and I am in total agreement

But this will take ages to do.....which is why we should focus on the long game rather than getting into internal rows over A50 which will happen whether we like it or not

Use it as a platform to start this conversation but it is not the whole story

[ChrisDean]

I really don't care what's available to the UK consumer and what ain't, I'll make my decisions at the point of purchase.

My post up-thread was a bit of tongue in cheek

Some of you take yourselves far too seriously.

Get off here and get a life ....goodbye for ever xx

[tinyclanger2]

Chris - my reading tells me they knew that and they responded in the same vein.

[HindleA]

PM launches 'sector deals' industrial strategy of state intervention

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... tervention" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-u ... al-britain" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[HindleA]

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/boos ... st-4-years" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Boost for motorists as government proposes no MOT test for first four years.

[HindleA]

Not a car driver,but a hundred million for an MOT test,a tad on the expensive side.

[HindleA]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... t-motorway" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Highways England plans to introduce Britain’s first pollution-linked speed limits to help reduce smog over Sheffield

[AngryAsWell]

Wow people what a wide ranging list of topics we covered this weekend.
From council cuts & rough sleepers, Care UK's negligence, Trump, grammar schools, the women's march, Labours NHS campaign event day, South Korea & black arts, Homelessness Reduction Bill,
the LibDems revival (or not), Australia to seek UK migration deal in Brexit trade talks, Independent Living Fund: post-closure review, Clive Lewis, school & school funding, Marine Le Pen (& French politics) more schools with financial issues, primary academies, Obamacare rollback and missile defence orders, a uniform-mad school, Government rejecting calls to scrap "woman-judging" 3rd child policy., Northern Ireland's EU exit will destroy peace deal, the housing crisis, the author of Article 50, EDF price increase, Trump White House takes down website pages about disabilities, Combined health and social care organisation poses 'financial risk' to local authority, Charles Brotman, Irony: India, Australia etc tell U.K. that if it wants trade deals it must relax immigration rules, Piers Corbyn accused of retweeting obvious Neo-Nazi stuff, copt-cat of President Obama's inauguration cake, Article 51 (not 50) Ed Miliband Retweeted Piers Morgan, New Yorkers marched to Trump Tower, Dr Seuss political cartoons, May to meet Trump, The U.K. ranks 17th, Bollocking Bloody Barnsley , Mark Rutte, Dutch PM, giving the UK quite a rocket (hope its better than trident) Barnsley bus/travel interchange, Immigration is lowest concern on young voters, Corbyn big EU meeting, America First deeply offensive to Jews, being the slogan of Lindbergh's movement in 30s. Donald Trump’s first acts as President was to increase the cost of mortgages for low-income and first-time buyers, Jared Kushner cleared for Trump job, Cross-party group of MPs plots to halt hard Brexit plans, Our young value protection of human rights and well-funded public services over immigration, Southern rail crisis, will May be toppled and who by, Theresa May set to travel to US for Donald Trump talks next week, Senior British diplomat:'I feel deeply let down by Boris, Boris Johnson not sounding his usual ebullient self, Trump Accused the Media of Lying About His Inauguration Crowd Size, whereabouts of CitizanJA (still worried about that one) Berlin business leaders unimpressed with UK's message, Kenneth Clarke told the Observer it was time for all pro-EU MPs to “abandon a bit of the tribalism in British politics”, Adam brought Vonnegut into things, Theresa May will urge Donald Trump not to undermine European unity (HA!) Nigel Farage: NHS might have to be replaced by private health insurance, Failed Trident missile test, Theresa May to unveil boost to vocational education, people not wanting to get started on the football, Doonesbury, Paul Nutall is fighting Labour in Stoke by election but getting unfair TV coverage, Former head of EC customs unit says border with Republic will return,
MahamMay being shifty over trident, Sunderland is about to become the first UK city without a single shelter for victims of domestic violence, Seen on a hat on Facebook. "Make Racism Wrong Again", Tom Price (HHS), Amartya Sen: ‘Referendums are like opinion polls, Manchester police used 'dangerous' CS gas without permission, Yorkshire village seeks to solve riddle of too much sun, Mrs M as a dominatrix? Some Tories buy it, but Europe won’t, French Socialists in hunt for the candidate with a populist touch to challenge Le Pen, RIP Social Housing Monday 23 Jan 2017, Labours 2016 conference statement re referendum, Managers ask how long patient will live, Americans who crowdfund their health costs fear for future under Trump, Mexico braced for exodus to US as ‘Trump effect’ hurts the peso, Welsh lamb EU problems, a bit of mass seething, 'grave concerns' about Donald Trump's mental stability, Corbyn's interview with Ridge, where Corbyn was born and does he know the answer?, The new build property trap that could stop you selling your home, Every school has different challenges”,SNP consulting on increasing age eligibility for bus pass. Minutes after landing in the US, Theresa May goes straight into her political tightrope routine (which I thought was funny but there you go, different strokes for .. you get the rest) The Prime Minister refused to say whether she knew about the nuclear weapon’s malfunction before declaring that she would be willing to authorise a strike that would kill 100,000 people, Spicer's lies, jam, Clegg, getting a bit carried away about Lib Dem support, is A50 revocable ?, Nigel Farage's analcyst.
Only on page 6 or 7 and am board now.
We cover a massive range of topics and can hardly be described as an echo chamber that only talks about brexit - although that has been done as well today.
Keep it up peps, it makes fantastic reading

[adam]

Come back Alastair (Campbell)? Is Andy free? (Couls... no perhaps that's going too far).

This is definitely one of the big problems at the moment. Labour's media management has been woeful since the election (and not that great before it). If there was one change I would make at the moment, it would be firing Seamus into the sun and hiring someone competent to do the job.

Yes - I wasn't entirely joking. Whatever you may think of him, he was a competent professional with the right contacts in the press. The LP desperately need someone with his skills/background.

Seumas Milne quits Guardian for permanent Labour party position

Jeremy Corbyn’s director of communications was previously on unpaid leave from paper. But he is to become a permanent feature of the leader’s team, which has recently been beefed up with a series of new faces, including the former Momentum spokesman James Schneider.

Guardian, last Thursday.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

@AAW thanks for that round-up

[HindleA]

Happened to listen to a bit of Rikki Fulton today,I still think he was the funniest man I have ever seen/listened to.The Reverend I.M.Jolly character,as an example only had to appear and laugh out loudness(unusual for me)resulted.

[HindleA]

Don't forget the public service we provide in diverting obsessive fascist keyboard "agitators",imagine the harm they could do,otherwise.