Saturday 28th & Sunday 29th January 2017

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 12:04 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Never mind Corbyn, hands up who voted for Watson in 2015 and now regrets it?

Both of them are disasters for Labour in their own uniquely awful ways.
They both had the spiel, the 'trust me' look in their eyes. Now it is apparent neither could lead a starving cat to a plate of its favourite food. But I had to see them actually in action, messing up spectacularly, to see the truth.

At least I admit my errors, and have taken a lot of flak for seeing reality and rejecting Corbyn after initially voting for him. Watson would certainly never get a vote from me again if I rejoin Labour.
They are two cheeks of the same incompetent backside.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 12:04 pm

Willow904 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Did anything transpire from the top pledge in that list, come to that?
His speech today, maybe?

Well that's a(nother) cheery thought.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 12:10 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The NHS should protect patient confidentiality

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 12:10 pm

Willow904 wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:Am, let's say, "disappointed" to discover that having a different view from a bigoted idiot renders me "sneering".
They have no idea how this is coming across, do they?

I can't believe that they have no idea (if they really do have no idea, then they really are unbelievably stupid). It seems to me that it's more that they don't care.

Gordon Brown's Gillian Duffy moment scripted and delivered through a megaphone?

Edited to add a "y"

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 12:11 pm

Willow904 wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:Am, let's say, "disappointed" to discover that having a different view from a bigoted idiot renders me "sneering".
They have no idea how this is coming across, do they?

In support terms, it seems weird (to me) that the LP are chasing a portion of the 17M votes that are already mostly pledged to UKIP & Tories, when they could be chasing a far larger portion of 16M votes.
(Unless they genuinely believe that Brexit will in some way benefit the UK of course).

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 12:14 pm

Remain voters are more likely to live in cities, more likely to have gone to university. More likely. Slightly more than not. Some of them live in the country and have little formal education.

Leave voters were more likely to live in the south, more likely to own their own home - very consistent with the fact that leave voters tended to be older and more likely to be Tory.

Although I understand the need to try to appeal to Labour leave voters as well as remain voters, I have pointed out all along that doing so involves the risk of losing one group in trying to appeal to the other. And Ukip voters are unlikely to come back when Labour have refused to offer the referendum and campaigned to remain. So it's a big risk for little potential gain. Remember the Tories have the most voters so their leave vote had the biggest impact on the referendum. Labour can't win these voters with the Tories in government delivering Brexit, but they could win Tory remain votes, single market votes and Libdem tactical votes. Does this risk losing their heartlands? Possibly, but being complacent about city votes is dangerous, too. Places like Bristol and Exeter could easily go to the Libdems.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 12:16 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... ew-of-king" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Second thoughts on George III: online project could alter view of king

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 12:17 pm

Its not as simple as that, unfortunately - most Labour seats voted for Brexit.

And can we please stop talking about "the 48%" (or indeed "the 52%") as some homogenous bloc who all believe the same thing?

Not least because around half of "remain" voters think the referendum result should be respected and do not seek to have it reversed/ignored.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 12:18 pm

The Simplest and Most Perfect Explanation of Privilege I’ve Ever Seen

Toby Morris, an Auckland based illustrator, has created a comic strip which can teach us an important lesson: that not everyone has the same opportunities in life. This is a short story about two people born into completely different families, whose members play contrasting roles in their children’s lives. We think it’s well worth reading.

https://brightside.me/article/what-you- ... ers-10155/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 12:23 pm

Matthew Green
‏@MatthewGreen02

Matthew Green Retweeted Sky News Tonight
Suspect many centrist Conservatives agree with @nick_clegg clear analysis of danger of cozying up to Trump. So why aren't they speaking out?

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What has happened to "centrist Conservatives" have they become extinct?

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 12:24 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Its not as simple as that, unfortunately - most Labour seats voted for Brexit.

And can we please stop talking about "the 48%" (or indeed "the 52%") as some homogenous bloc who all believe the same thing?

Not least because around half of "remain" voters think the referendum result should be respected and do not seek to have it reversed/ignored.

Seat yes, but 69% of Labour voters voted remain.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 12:27 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:Labour turning the UK into a one-party state. Tories must be laughing their heads off.
And I have no doubt where the *primary* blame for that lies - with those who would rather destroy Labour than not have themselves in charge of it.

Well, there is at least a chance now they will get just that - "be careful what you wish for" was rarely more apposite.

(and let's forget Corbyn here, it started with Ed if not even earlier)

Corbyn on 14% for best PM. Tories not even trying to hurt him. Not even Michael Fallon can be bothered. They've got "Vote Farron/ Sturgeon/ Wood Get Corbyn" in the locker.

This is epic unpopularity. Pisses of heartlands as liberal elite beardie IRA lover. Now pissing off the liberals too.

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 12:28 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Its not as simple as that, unfortunately - most Labour seats voted for Brexit.

And can we please stop talking about "the 48%" (or indeed "the 52%") as some homogenous bloc who all believe the same thing?

Not least because around half of "remain" voters think the referendum result should be respected and do not seek to have it reversed/ignored.
Seat yes, but 69% of Labour voters voted remain.

And Labour is supposed to be a pro-EU party.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 12:31 pm

I wonder how many Labour "Out" voters will have had the wind put up them in the light of "Brexit" appearing to mean "Trumpit"?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 12:31 pm

But the anti-Single Market pro- Freedom of Movement folk must be delighted with Corbyn.

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 12:33 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Its not as simple as that, unfortunately - most Labour seats voted for Brexit.

And can we please stop talking about "the 48%" (or indeed "the 52%") as some homogenous bloc who all believe the same thing?

Not least because around half of "remain" voters think the referendum result should be respected and do not seek to have it reversed/ignored.
Seat yes, but 69% of Labour voters voted remain.

...and I would suggest that the remainers are a more homogenous bloc (voting for the status quo) than leavers who appear to have a much wider range of views.

The result need not be ignored - delay A50 until it's known whether it's revocable. If it is, then a vote/referendum on the outcome of negotiations - including a 'remain' option.
(which seems to be more or less the LibDem stance).

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 12:34 pm

http://www.unhcr.org/news/press/2017/1/ ... order.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Joint IOM-UNHCR Statement on President Trump’s Refugee Order

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 12:38 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:But the anti-Single Market pro- Freedom of Movement folk must be delighted with Corbyn.

Yes! Soulmates with no grip on reality

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 12:38 pm

EXCLUSIVE: Fast-moving policy changes re academy pledges put Oasis in ‘impossible situation’, FoI reveals

It would be expected the DfE would have some record of this. But it doesn’t know how much academy land it actually owns. As Schools Week reported (March 2016), the DfE would need to spend £20m to resolve academy land confusion. And it's reluctant to do so.

http://www.localschoolsnetwork.org.uk/2 ... oi-reveals" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 12:39 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Its not as simple as that, unfortunately - most Labour seats voted for Brexit.

And can we please stop talking about "the 48%" (or indeed "the 52%") as some homogenous bloc who all believe the same thing?

Not least because around half of "remain" voters think the referendum result should be respected and do not seek to have it reversed/ignored.

They might not want to see the referendum reversed but it's a huge reach from there to assuming they now embrace nationalism, isolationism and protectionism. Which is what both Watson and Corbyn appear to be peddling. Brexit was sold on the idea we wanted to be part of a trading bloc with Europe, not a political one. So how did that morph into not wanting to be in a trading bloc either, exactly? Respecting the referendum means leaving the EU, not helping May take us out of the single market. When Article 50 becomes bound up with the latter it becomes a problem. Instead of pointing out this problem, Labour is insulting and deriding remain voters. Why?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 12:42 pm

If Farron comes up with a snappy student fees policy (he did vote against himself) Labour could be in real trouble. I don't know back to £3k paid for by abolishing non dom.

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 12:42 pm

The right side of history will be to oppose Brexit. The side of openness, tolerance and progress. The side of avoiding financial instability, so that you can have some money to fund public services. The side Labour should be on, basically.

The wrong thing to do will be to nod through a bill that could result in Britain becoming poorer and more unequal – even a tax haven. This is the side of a shrinking state, massive deregulation and low tax. The side Labour definitely, definitely shouldn’t be on.

Most Labour MPs would argue that an anti-Brexit stance would make a Labour government less likely, and this would be bad for voters. And it’s true. It could batter Labour electorally to block Article 50. But they’re getting battered in the polls anyway. And polls tend to overestimate Labour support, as we saw so starkly in 2015. Plus, its seats are getting monstered in the boundary review. If the current outlook is anything to go by, it will be out of power for a very long time, whether it opposes Brexit or not. At least being on the right side of history now would appeal to voters when history comes to judge the Brexiteers.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/st ... de-history" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 12:43 pm

Simon Gosden
‏@SimonGosden

Theresa May 'to discuss trade' with President Erdogan on Turkey visit. How can #brexit voters forget this lie?

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Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 12:45 pm

Anatoly is right that the 69% of Labour constituencies figure does resonate.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 12:46 pm

I'd like to know more detail about Ed Miliband's support for the 3 line whip (the Newsnight interview). It was a "moving swiftly along" moment. At face value, I'm surprised and disappointed.

Edited to add a """. (That really works, doesn't it?)

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 12:47 pm

Vote May Get Trump.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 12:50 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:Labour turning the UK into a one-party state. Tories must be laughing their heads off.
And I have no doubt where the *primary* blame for that lies - with those who would rather destroy Labour than not have themselves in charge of it.

Well, there is at least a chance now they will get just that - "be careful what you wish for" was rarely more apposite.

(and let's forget Corbyn here, it started with Ed if not even earlier)

Don't want to inspire a lot of exasperated groaning, but am seriously considering cancelling membership. Am open to arguments that persuade me otherwise. I just don't see much I can back at the moment - never mind that actually represents my view.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 12:51 pm

Leave is going to win. We know that. The Tories have a majority.

Sometimes there is a dignity in accepting you are on the losing side. To keep faith with your principles, but to accept you are in the minority. Labour rejected an EU referendum and campaigned to remain. They are on the losing side. There's nothing wrong with that. Accept it. This jumping ship, changing tune, courting the winning side. There's no dignity in it. Labour picked the wrong side, it's too late to change course. The only hope is to hold firm and maybe eventually public opinion will come back to them, especially if they argue effectively about the importance of close relationships with the EU.

I'm not asking Labour to block Brexit. They can't even if they wanted to. I'm just asking them to stay true to what they were - a pro-EU party.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 12:51 pm

Anti-Brexit campaigners aim to stage UK's biggest protest march
Unite for Europe plans to march on parliament on 25 March, the final weekend before Theresa May’s article 50 deadline

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... um=twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 12:55 pm

pk1 wrote:
The right side of history will be to oppose Brexit. The side of openness, tolerance and progress. The side of avoiding financial instability, so that you can have some money to fund public services. The side Labour should be on, basically.

The wrong thing to do will be to nod through a bill that could result in Britain becoming poorer and more unequal – even a tax haven. This is the side of a shrinking state, massive deregulation and low tax. The side Labour definitely, definitely shouldn’t be on.

Most Labour MPs would argue that an anti-Brexit stance would make a Labour government less likely, and this would be bad for voters. And it’s true. It could batter Labour electorally to block Article 50. But they’re getting battered in the polls anyway. And polls tend to overestimate Labour support, as we saw so starkly in 2015. Plus, its seats are getting monstered in the boundary review. If the current outlook is anything to go by, it will be out of power for a very long time, whether it opposes Brexit or not. At least being on the right side of history now would appeal to voters when history comes to judge the Brexiteers.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/st ... de-history" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Will "being on the right side of history" be much comfort if UKIP then does to Labour in England what the SNP has in Scotland?

That is the sort of quasi-nihilistic outlook more traditionally associated with the hard left.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 12:56 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:One of the Watson pitches that won people over 18 months ago was his pledge to promote and develop digital democracy.

Has anything - at all - happened on this since then?

You are my husband and I claim my £5.

That's one of the things that influenced the two votes in our household. My other half was only saying that this morning after I read him the Watson pre-speech stuff. Just before I started tearing my hair out.

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 12:57 pm

PorFavor wrote:I'd like to know more detail about Ed Miliband's support for the 3 line whip (the Newsnight interview). It was a "moving swiftly along" moment. At face value, I'm surprised and disappointed.

Edited to add a """. (That really works, doesn't it?)

I suspect it was because he's a loyal party member & remembers the way some MPs undermined him in the media so decided always to support the party line, if asked.

We know he's vociferously pro-EU so that's the only explanation I can come up with.

I do so miss him

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 12:57 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Vote May Get Trump.

and Erdogan

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 12:57 pm

pk1 wrote:
The right side of history will be to oppose Brexit. The side of openness, tolerance and progress. The side of avoiding financial instability, so that you can have some money to fund public services. The side Labour should be on, basically.

The wrong thing to do will be to nod through a bill that could result in Britain becoming poorer and more unequal – even a tax haven. This is the side of a shrinking state, massive deregulation and low tax. The side Labour definitely, definitely shouldn’t be on.

Most Labour MPs would argue that an anti-Brexit stance would make a Labour government less likely, and this would be bad for voters. And it’s true. It could batter Labour electorally to block Article 50. But they’re getting battered in the polls anyway. And polls tend to overestimate Labour support, as we saw so starkly in 2015. Plus, its seats are getting monstered in the boundary review. If the current outlook is anything to go by, it will be out of power for a very long time, whether it opposes Brexit or not. At least being on the right side of history now would appeal to voters when history comes to judge the Brexiteers.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/st ... de-history" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It could be 30 years, not 3, before history judges the brexiteers. By that time it'll have long been overtaken by climate change as an issue.
I disagree with the idea that people are going to regain their senses a couple of years down the road and it could all be made right if only Labour/Corbyn/whoever did the right thing.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 1:01 pm

Willow904 wrote:Leave is going to win. We know that. The Tories have a majority.

Sometimes there is a dignity in accepting you are on the losing side. To keep faith with your principles, but to accept you are in the minority. Labour rejected an EU referendum and campaigned to remain. They are on the losing side. There's nothing wrong with that. Accept it. This jumping ship, changing tune, courting the winning side. There's no dignity in it. Labour picked the wrong side, it's too late to change course. The only hope is to hold firm and maybe eventually public opinion will come back to them, especially if they argue effectively about the importance of close relationships with the EU.

I'm not asking Labour to block Brexit. They can't even if they wanted to. I'm just asking them to stay true to what they were - a pro-EU party.

Yes, but to Corbyn and many others being seen to accept a democratic decision is more important. Indeed, it is to them a more important PRINCIPLE.

(to answer pk1's query, that might just be why EM is taking the line he is?)

How many of those MPs - from various partles - raising hell about JC's position voted against having a referendum?

If they did, they have a defensible position. If they voted *for* it (as LibDems and Lucas did) they are open to the charge of hypocrisy.

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 1:01 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
pk1 wrote:
The right side of history will be to oppose Brexit. The side of openness, tolerance and progress. The side of avoiding financial instability, so that you can have some money to fund public services. The side Labour should be on, basically.

The wrong thing to do will be to nod through a bill that could result in Britain becoming poorer and more unequal – even a tax haven. This is the side of a shrinking state, massive deregulation and low tax. The side Labour definitely, definitely shouldn’t be on.

Most Labour MPs would argue that an anti-Brexit stance would make a Labour government less likely, and this would be bad for voters. And it’s true. It could batter Labour electorally to block Article 50. But they’re getting battered in the polls anyway. And polls tend to overestimate Labour support, as we saw so starkly in 2015. Plus, its seats are getting monstered in the boundary review. If the current outlook is anything to go by, it will be out of power for a very long time, whether it opposes Brexit or not. At least being on the right side of history now would appeal to voters when history comes to judge the Brexiteers.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/st ... de-history" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Will "being on the right side of history" be much comfort if UKIP then does to Labour in England what the SNP has in Scotland?

That is the sort of quasi-nihilistic outlook more traditionally associated with the hard left.

Hang on though - aren't we repeatedly told that UKIP are a busted flush ? That now the referendum has been 'won' they're a spent force ?

I'd prefer Labour to stay true to their pro-EU stance - the members who feel the same must be devastated at Corbyn's acceptance of the Tory position. Then again, he often voted with the Cons, despite Labour's position & imposition of the whip....

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 1:04 pm

I see Owen Smith involved with that Article 50 Single Market bill.

Can we assume that wanted posters are going up in Brexit Pontypridd?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 1:05 pm

PorFavor wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:Am, let's say, "disappointed" to discover that having a different view from a bigoted idiot renders me "sneering".
They have no idea how this is coming across, do they?
I can't believe that they have no idea (if they really do have no idea, then they really are unbelievably stupid). It seems to me that it's more that they don't care.

Gordon Brown's Gillian Duffy moment scripted and delivered through a megaphone?

Edited to add a "y"

Presume it's all part of the 'populist' relaunch or reboot or whatever.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 1:05 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Willow904 wrote:Leave is going to win. We know that. The Tories have a majority.

Sometimes there is a dignity in accepting you are on the losing side. To keep faith with your principles, but to accept you are in the minority. Labour rejected an EU referendum and campaigned to remain. They are on the losing side. There's nothing wrong with that. Accept it. This jumping ship, changing tune, courting the winning side. There's no dignity in it. Labour picked the wrong side, it's too late to change course. The only hope is to hold firm and maybe eventually public opinion will come back to them, especially if they argue effectively about the importance of close relationships with the EU.

I'm not asking Labour to block Brexit. They can't even if they wanted to. I'm just asking them to stay true to what they were - a pro-EU party.
Yes, but to Corbyn and many others being seen to accept a democratic decision is more important. Indeed, it is to them a more important PRINCIPLE.

(to answer pk1's query, that might just be why EM is taking the line he is?)

How many of those MPs - from various partles - raising hell about JC's position voted against having a referendum?

If they did, they have a defensible position. If they voted *for* it (as LibDems and Lucas did) they are open to the charge of hypocrisy.

Refusing to back May on leaving the single market is not blocking Brexit.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 1:09 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:I see Owen Smith involved with that Article 50 Single Market bill.

Can we assume that wanted posters are going up in Brexit Pontypridd?

I hope you checked your spelling before posting that . . .

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 1:12 pm

Black cats 2 !

Apologies to LFC fans but

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 1:12 pm

Repeat of BBCqt about to begin, Stella Creasy worth a listen

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 1:16 pm

https://www.reddit.com/r/LabourUK/comme ... n_article/

Angela Rayner on why she supports 3 line whip:

To suggest that JC could duck a whipped position on this is really absurd. We have to do our best to hold the government to account and demand the facts throughout the parliamentary process before a final vote. That is the correct way to go about scrutiny whilst respecting democracy, not to vote it down before we have even had chance to debate and see the details.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 1:18 pm

Willow904 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Willow904 wrote:Leave is going to win. We know that. The Tories have a majority.

Sometimes there is a dignity in accepting you are on the losing side. To keep faith with your principles, but to accept you are in the minority. Labour rejected an EU referendum and campaigned to remain. They are on the losing side. There's nothing wrong with that. Accept it. This jumping ship, changing tune, courting the winning side. There's no dignity in it. Labour picked the wrong side, it's too late to change course. The only hope is to hold firm and maybe eventually public opinion will come back to them, especially if they argue effectively about the importance of close relationships with the EU.

I'm not asking Labour to block Brexit. They can't even if they wanted to. I'm just asking them to stay true to what they were - a pro-EU party.
Yes, but to Corbyn and many others being seen to accept a democratic decision is more important. Indeed, it is to them a more important PRINCIPLE.

(to answer pk1's query, that might just be why EM is taking the line he is?)

How many of those MPs - from various partles - raising hell about JC's position voted against having a referendum?

If they did, they have a defensible position. If they voted *for* it (as LibDems and Lucas did) they are open to the charge of hypocrisy.
Refusing to back May on leaving the single market is not blocking Brexit.

A50 is arguably not about that, rather recognising the referendum happened and the process of leaving the EU needs to begin. Begin, not end.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 1:19 pm

AK, there is a world of difference between accepting the referendum result but still arguing that the benefits of the single market are more important to the country than curbing immigration, as Ed Miliband had done and this:

Labour accepts the referendum result as the voice of the majority and we must embrace the enormous opportunities to reshape our country that Brexit has opened for us."

He insisted that the party needed to change their attitude about Brexit

"It is time we all were more positive about Brexit," he [McDonnell]said.

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2016/11/ ... ty-britain" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

After a number of Labour MPs urged Corbyn to clarify his position, he released a personal statement. He said he would be “pressing for full access to the European single market” for Britain’s firms, but added: “There are directives and obligations linked to the single market, such as state aid rules and requirements to liberalise and privatise public services, which we would not want to see as part of a post-Brexit relationship.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ter-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It was bad enough when Corbyn and McDonnell were openly signalling they supported leaving the single market, but the aggressive hostile tone now being taken to describe people who still hold on to some lingering hope that our close ties with Europe are not about to be severed forever is appalling. This is not the way to win support of bereft Europhiles.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 1:20 pm

Man wearing Swastika armband attacked after hundreds of university students surround him screaming "f*** off Nazi scum"
Michael Dewitz, 34, was attacked after he turned up to the University of Florida clad in black and wearing an armband with the offensive symbol on the arm

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news ... ed-9709536" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 1:21 pm

Off topic:
weight up again (I blame the CHEESE)

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 1:21 pm

Lord of the Flies. Global scale.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 1:23 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote: Yes, but to Corbyn and many others being seen to accept a democratic decision is more important. Indeed, it is to them a more important PRINCIPLE.

(to answer pk1's query, that might just be why EM is taking the line he is?)

How many of those MPs - from various partles - raising hell about JC's position voted against having a referendum?

If they did, they have a defensible position. If they voted *for* it (as LibDems and Lucas did) they are open to the charge of hypocrisy.
Refusing to back May on leaving the single market is not blocking Brexit.
A50 is arguably not about that, rather recognising the referendum happened and the process of leaving the EU needs to begin. Begin, not end.

And if unilateral revocability had been unequivocally established before the vote, the situation would be markedly different......

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 28 Jan, 2017 1:24 pm

(((AndrewThompson)))
‏@_Polinard
The Mayor of #Berlin has it.
Does @realDonaldTrump have at least an ounce of humanity? #nowalls

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