Monday 30th January 2017

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 12:24 pm

Also, I presume the invitation was to the President of the United States, so there's got to be a good chance of Pence turning up for tea and biccies instead, the way things are going.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 12:26 pm

Meanwhile...

Jonathan Portes ‏@jdportes 7m7 minutes ago

Reversion to WTO rules immediately after Article 50 conclusion in 2019 would be "train crash Brexit" says Andrew Tyrie to @UKandEU event

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 12:29 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... lde-pomsel" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Joseph Goebbels' secretary, Brunhilde Pomsel, dies aged 106
One of last people close to Nazi leadership was subject of film last year, but felt no sense of guilt for Hitler’s crimes

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 12:30 pm

I don't know if anyone has posted this yet, but it's essential reading I think. A fairly brief overview of the weekend's developments, synthesised in such a way as to come to an unsurprising yet terrifying conclusion. Points 5 and 6 have been totally swamped by other news, of course, but are no less frightening.

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Sweet dreams everyone.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 12:34 pm

Willow904 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Coming to the conclusion that democracy is bad is a very dangerous road to go down, especially for "progressives" and leftists.
Not the formal institutions of representative democracy, but direct democracy, "mob rule", the tyranny of the majority. Putting an opinion poll above the constitutionally established sovereignty of parliament is what I consider dangerous.

Sorry, but a referendum simply *isn't* an "opinion poll" - that claim is verging on "post-truth" politics.

However bad it was (and yes, the campaign was often very bad - to mention nothing of the outcome) it was a massive exercise in popular participation - with a far higher turnout than *all* recent GEs. Ignore that at your peril.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 12:34 pm

NonOxCol wrote:I don't know if anyone has posted this yet, but it's essential reading I think. A fairly brief overview of the weekend's developments, synthesised in such a way as to come to an unsurprising yet terrifying conclusion. Points 5 and 6 have been totally swamped by other news, of course, but are no less frightening.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sweet dreams everyone.

Zunger is always well worth a read.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 12:53 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Coming to the conclusion that democracy is bad is a very dangerous road to go down, especially for "progressives" and leftists.
Not the formal institutions of representative democracy, but direct democracy, "mob rule", the tyranny of the majority. Putting an opinion poll above the constitutionally established sovereignty of parliament is what I consider dangerous.
Sorry, but a referendum simply *isn't* an "opinion poll" - that claim is verging on "post-truth" politics.

However bad it was (and yes, the campaign was often very bad - to mention nothing of the outcome) it was a massive exercise in popular participation - with a far higher turnout than *all* recent GEs. Ignore that at your peril.

I accept.
The law is clear.
Government have no mandate for proceeding as they are.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 12:56 pm

The worst has already happened to us.

Edited to add
A Labour Remain MP got assassinated on the street for daring to disagree with right-wing extremists.
I will do what is legal and good to do.
I will not be frightened into bowing down before the threat of mob violence.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 12:58 pm

Sam Coates Times Verified account
‏@SamCoatesTimes

Srce: "A state visit is granted on the advice of the Queen's principal minister - the PM. There would be zero chance without (PM approval)"

and then...

Emily Thornberry ‏@EmilyThornberry 10m10 minutes ago

Emily Thornberry Retweeted Sam Coates Times

And a No 10 official sits on the State Visits Committee. No matter how hard she tries, the PM cannot distance herself from Trump invitation

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 1:05 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
pk1 wrote:Good morning.

Couldn't agree more.

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2017 ... rticle-50/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

At least that has an apology at the start. The likes of Monbiot, Williams and Jones need to apologise too, and not just admit error.
Yes, that's what we need - SHOW TRIALS!

Did you notice the French result last night? Outdated, reheated Blairism is being rejected across the world.

You did ask yesterday for people who voted for Watson to fess up.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 1:10 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
They had the French Presidential elections last night did they? Macron has lost has he?

Or perhaps you're referring to a leftist party shooting itself in the face? That does indeed have amusing parallels.

Vive la revolution!

Forward brothers and sisters, to fourth place!

Seriously, it is important we remember who the idiots who urged us down this path were, so that we can safely ignore them in the future.
Idiots? Just take a look at their policies. For much of the twentieth century they would have been considered normal left of centre politicians. But now in the 21st they are "idiots"?

You think an electoral strategy that will ensure that the French Socialists come an unprecedented (bad) fourth in the coming election is a good one? Their worst performance, by far, in the history of the Republic.

Breath wasted indeed.

Come with me to the wilderness!

I'd be voting for the Blairite. If he beats Fillon into second place into the first round, you would be too.

Possibly you are correct. But the others are not "idiots". They are putting forward reasonable platforms of moderate-ish left wing policies that may, or not, appeal to voters. Such policies have, I would argue, contributed to successful, stable democracies on many occasions.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 1:12 pm

NonOxCol wrote:Forgive me, but Jesus wept...

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Jesus Wept II: The Sequel.

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SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 1:16 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote: Idiots? Just take a look at their policies. For much of the twentieth century they would have been considered normal left of centre politicians. But now in the 21st they are "idiots"?

You think an electoral strategy that will ensure that the French Socialists come an unprecedented (bad) fourth in the coming election is a good one? Their worst performance, by far, in the history of the Republic.

Breath wasted indeed.

Come with me to the wilderness!

I'd be voting for the Blairite. If he beats Fillon into second place into the first round, you would be too.
Possibly you are correct. But the others are not "idiots". They are putting forward reasonable platforms of moderate-ish left wing policies that may, or not, appeal to voters. Such policies have, I would argue, contributed to successful, stable democracies on many occasions.

Well, we'll see whether Hamon wins.

Or does much worse than any previous Socialist candidate in the history of the Republic.

Trump is giving you an object lesson in the importance of winning.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 1:19 pm

NonOxCol wrote:
NonOxCol wrote:Forgive me, but Jesus wept...

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Jesus Wept II: The Sequel.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Freddie Whittaker ‏@FCDWhittaker 1h1 hour ago

Freddie Whittaker Retweeted Jim Waterson

Downing Street managing to sound like someone's techno-phobic parent here...

"You lot with your bloody screens, honestly, when was the last time you read a book. That's what Theresa's doing. She reads books."

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 1:20 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Coming to the conclusion that democracy is bad is a very dangerous road to go down, especially for "progressives" and leftists.
Not the formal institutions of representative democracy, but direct democracy, "mob rule", the tyranny of the majority. Putting an opinion poll above the constitutionally established sovereignty of parliament is what I consider dangerous.
Sorry, but a referendum simply *isn't* an "opinion poll" - that claim is verging on "post-truth" politics.

However bad it was (and yes, the campaign was often very bad - to mention nothing of the outcome) it was a massive exercise in popular participation - with a far higher turnout than *all* recent GEs. Ignore that at your peril.

So the fact that the referendum was so close if it had been held a month or two later or earlier the result could have been reversed doesn't bother you?

So the fact that the answer to one question is being used as a mandate to pursue additional policies that have never been put to the public and may possibly never be put to parliament doesn't bother you?

So the advisory nature of the referendum and the sovereignty of parliament doesn't mean anything?

The people advised they wanted to leave the EU. As long as we leave the EU, what is wrong with providing opposition to the government and demanding safeguards before we proceed? We need to know if article 50 is revocable before we proceed, surely? We need to know whether invoking article 50 takes us out of the single market or whether that is separate, surely? "The will of the people" is being used to rush parliament into a commitment with a great many unknowns still unanswered. Since when did fulfilling the will of the people mean having to agree to the government's hasty timetable and jumping in blind? There are procedures and debates that accompany all such great and significant decisions. Why on earth does a referendum trump all that and made the usual procedures of parliament nul and void? Just 5 days to debate what is possibly the most significant political decision of my lifetime? I'm defending our representative democracy as I know it. We don't have a referendum based democracy. When we voted to remain in the Common Market in 1975, 170 MPs voted against in the Commons. What terrible thing happened then? Nothing. The Tories won a majority, the Tories wanted us out of the EU, the Tories won the referendum necessary to do so. At no point did they win a mandate to take us out of the single market. Vote for article 50 now, without knowing the answer to the above questions and you are helping them to do so without any mandate or reference to any kind of democratic procedure at all.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 1:21 pm

Meanwhile in the edu world, things are going awfully well for the government...wait...

Tory MPs rebel over cash for rural schools

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/20 ... l-schools/

Senior Tories have gone public with their anger over the Government's education funding reforms as party whips struggle to contain a growing rebellion.

A string of influential Conservatives have told this newspaper that not enough has been done to boost support for rural schools in the spending shake-up.

Tory whips have been working behind the scenes in an attempt to win over critics and end the dispute.

However, MPs are ready to rebel unless changes are made to give "historically under-funded" schools more money through the reforms.

Oops.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 1:31 pm

Ouch. Labour through the looking glass

https://middlevision.wordpress.com/2017 ... ends-well/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **adam** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 1:39 pm

Meanwhile Trump continues to tweet through his private account. Imagine if issues about private or public control of online activity had been an issue in the election campaign?

You have to hope that there are enough fawning royalists amongst the tory grandees to seriously slap May down over this nonsense about blaming the palace for inviting him.

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 1:44 pm

adam wrote:Meanwhile Trump continues to tweet through his private account. Imagine if issues about private or public control of online activity had been an issue in the election campaign?

You have to hope that there are enough fawning royalists amongst the tory grandees to seriously slap May down over this nonsense about blaming the palace for inviting him.

A purpose in life for Rees-Mogg at last?

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 2:13 pm

Starbucks vows to hire 10,000 refugees after Trump travel ban
Coffee chain unveils plan to hire staff first in US and then across its global operations amid ‘deep concern’ over president’s order

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ?CMP=fb_gu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 2:16 pm

David LammyVerified account
‏@DavidLammy

My amendment to the Article 50 Bill - the PM must not sell off access to our NHS to private companies when negotiating trade deals

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AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 2:17 pm

David LammyVerified account
‏@DavidLammy
My amendment to Article 50 Bill - the vote in Parliament on final deal should include the option to retain our membership of the EU

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GetYou · Post by **GetYou** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 2:20 pm

Fake News: Have we had this yet? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-38769996

Obviously it's mostly very subjective, but I'm interested to see how much automation is possible to minimise the need for human intervention.

[edit: speeling]

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 2:22 pm

Play on R4 just now is a brilliant comment on controversial social commentators
I've heard it before - its grim

Comment Is Free
Drama

Everybody hates Alistair Cooper and they're not afraid of saying it.

Starring Rachael Stirling (Detectorists, Capital) and Tobias Menzies (Games of Thrones, Outlander) alongside a cast of hundreds, Hilary Cooper watches her husband's story get chewed up and spat out by an unscrupulous media and a divided public. The whole nation competes to be the quickest to comment in this thrilling portrayal of the sound and fury of modern British politics.

Written by James Fritz. Produced and directed by Becky Ripley.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07wtd70" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 2:40 pm

Nice to know it's not just us:

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All over the BBC today (TV and radio) equating Trump with Obama. As far as I am aware only James O' Brien has challenged him effectively on television.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 2:41 pm

Ed Miliband ‏@Ed_Miliband 2h2 hours ago
This is motion for emergency debate I will be seeking today with @nadhimzahawi and other MPs following the Foreign Secretary's statement.

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PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 2:49 pm

adam wrote:Meanwhile Trump continues to tweet through his private account. Imagine if issues about private or public control of online activity had been an issue in the election campaign?

You have to hope that there are enough fawning royalists amongst the tory grandees to seriously slap May down over this nonsense about blaming the palace for inviting him.

Your strapline -

I'm probably being heretical here, but I actually prefer the Wet Wet Wet rendition to the original. I feel guilty about it, but there you go . . .

Edited to add -

And here is the aforementioned strapline, just so's everyone's not completely mystified -

teddy bear tender and tragically hip

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 2:52 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:Play on R4 just now is a brilliant comment on controversial social commentators
I've heard it before - its grim

Comment Is Free
Drama

Everybody hates Alistair Cooper and they're not afraid of saying it.

Starring Rachael Stirling (Detectorists, Capital) and Tobias Menzies (Games of Thrones, Outlander) alongside a cast of hundreds, Hilary Cooper watches her husband's story get chewed up and spat out by an unscrupulous media and a divided public. The whole nation competes to be the quickest to comment in this thrilling portrayal of the sound and fury of modern British politics.

Written by James Fritz. Produced and directed by Becky Ripley.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07wtd70" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks. Sounds interesting - I'll try to track it down later.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 3:00 pm

Theresa May booed by protesters (one particularly clear with the "Boo, boo" thing) as she left the JMC meeting.

It was very like that scene from "The Princess Bride".

Edited to add "May". Don't know how that happened . . .

Post by **adam** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 3:01 pm

PorFavor wrote:
adam wrote:Meanwhile Trump continues to tweet through his private account. Imagine if issues about private or public control of online activity had been an issue in the election campaign?

You have to hope that there are enough fawning royalists amongst the tory grandees to seriously slap May down over this nonsense about blaming the palace for inviting him.

Your strapline -

I'm probably being heretical here, but I actually prefer the Wet Wet Wet rendition to the original. I feel guilty about it, but there you go . . .

* amends christmas card list*

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 3:04 pm

On a subject that can hopefully unite us, over 1.3 million signatures for the "no Trump state visit" petition now. Anybody here who hasn't yet signed, please do so

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 3:20 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:On a subject that can hopefully unite us, over 1.3 million signatures for the "no Trump state visit" petition now. Anybody here who hasn't yet signed, please do so

... and the link - just in case

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/171928/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

*edit to actually add the link.... lol

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 3:25 pm

Airbnb offers free housing to refugees and anyone affected by Trump's immigration ban

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/29/airbnb-o ... n-ban.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 3:29 pm

Nicholas Soames ‏@nsoamesmp 7h7 hours ago
More
I am afraid that the lessons of history ,which are an invaluable guide ,seem not to be even considered by The President and his advisors

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 3:31 pm

Nature News&Comment ‏@NatureNews 6h6 hours ago
More
Researchers shocked at UK's plan to exit EU nuclear agency: http://go.nature.com/2kBLQIl" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.nature.com/news/researchers- ... NatureNews" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 3:32 pm

Brexit: Goldman Sachs boss warns Theresa May to protect City or lose out to Paris and Frankfurt
Lloyd Blankfein 'talked tough' to the Prime Minister at a closed-doors meeting

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 53451.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 4:02 pm

When even right of centre people like Kristol are posting things like this, even the most bigoted right wing frother ought to be sitting up and taking notice.

Bill Kristol ‏@BillKristol 2h2 hours ago

Media scapegoating Stephen Miller for the EO. But Miller acts at the direction of Stephen Bannon. As, for now, does @realDonaldTrump.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 4:14 pm

Dan Jarvis backing the Corbyn approach to A50. We truly live in interesting times.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 4:20 pm

Spinning Rentoul defending Trump's approach to those born or living elsewhere. What a time to be alive.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 4:38 pm

martinson wrote:Good morning
Some prescient stuff from last year

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/11179774" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/20 ... trump.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That second one is a long read but very good, pity the GOP didn't read it. No doubt at the time it was dismissed as exaggerated by those who bothered.

These GOP elites have every right to deploy whatever rules or procedural roadblocks they can muster, and they should refuse to be intimidated.

And if they fail in Indiana or Cleveland, as they likely will, they need, quite simply, to disown their party’s candidate. They should resist any temptation to loyally back the nominee or to sit this election out. They must take the fight to Trump at every opportunity, unite with Democrats and Independents against him, and be prepared to sacrifice one election in order to save their party and their country.

I liked this too, on a lighter note.

Online debates become personal, emotional, and irresolvable almost as soon as they begin.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 4:51 pm

Sky News Verified account
‏@SkyNews

"Have the guts to speak out" @YvetteCooperMP tells @BorisJohnson over #Trump travel ban

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

GetYou · Post by **GetYou** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 4:55 pm

gilsey wrote:Online debates become personal, emotional, and irresolvable almost as soon as they begin.

Oh no they don't. You git.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 5:48 pm

Boris. On a different planet.

Johnson says anyone looking at Trump will conclude “his bark is considerably worse than his bite”.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 5:53 pm

The Press Association has been looking into the state visits committee mentioned by the prime minister’s spokesman at the Number 10 lobby briefing. (See 12.56pm.) It says the body, officially known as the royal visits committee, is chaired by the Foreign Office’s permanent secretary, and comprises the private secretaries to the the Queen, the Prince of Wales, the Duke of Cambridge, and the prime minister, as well as the keeper of the privy purse and treasurer to the Queen, the national security adviser, a representative from the department for international trade, and the Foreign Office’s director of protocol.

All of those people thought inviting trump so quickly was a good idea?
They all want sacking.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 5:55 pm

gilsey wrote:
The Press Association has been looking into the state visits committee mentioned by the prime minister’s spokesman at the Number 10 lobby briefing. (See 12.56pm.) It says the body, officially known as the royal visits committee, is chaired by the Foreign Office’s permanent secretary, and comprises the private secretaries to the the Queen, the Prince of Wales, the Duke of Cambridge, and the prime minister, as well as the keeper of the privy purse and treasurer to the Queen, the national security adviser, a representative from the department for international trade, and the Foreign Office’s director of protocol.
All of those people thought inviting trump so quickly was a good idea?
They all want sacking.

Careful that's bordering on treason!

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 5:59 pm

Anyone with the remotest doubt about just how vile and hypocritical Boris Johnson is: read Ian Dunt's Twitter feed immediately.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 6:29 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ast-cereal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Weetabix warns it may raise prices due to fall in pound since Brexit vote
Company behind breakfast cereal says increases, if they take place, would probably be in ‘low single digits’

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 6:30 pm

Hurts to watch Ed Miliband in the Commons. Compared with Corbyn, he's a veritable giant & the passion with which he spoke of the Trump ban & the disgust that the UK is not speaking out more forcefully against it shone with his every word.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 6:32 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyl ... e-up-short" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Great Scottish outcry as half-marathon course comes up short

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 6:41 pm

Does anyone else remember, during the POTUS election campaign, hearing Democrat/left leaning people interviewed who said they wouldn't vote for Clinton ? Some said they didn't care if Trump won because Clinton was so corrupt, dangerous etc. they couldn't possibly vote for her.
Wonder how they feel now ?