Tuesday 31st January 2017

[Temulkar]

You call it cowardice pk1, others call it realism.

I do ask people here to remember that REGARDLESS of what Labour MPs do, A50 is going to be passed because almost ALL Tories (and DUP) will vote for it.

What then?

That makes no difference to responsibility.

If you vote for something, can you say "it isn't my responsibility because it would have passed anyway without my vote."

Labour is responsible with the Tories (and the DUP) for the votes they cast.

Hey everybody the dictionary doctoring troll is here - hows it going Convulvulus? If anyone is wondering what Hugo is doing here, just read Asterix and the Roman Agent, its unsophisticated and childish - Hugo's tactics that is not Gosciny and Underzo's masterpiece - but rather amusing when you twig.

[citizenJA]

A US Presidents' jurisdiction over Federal law enforcement, even the military, is tempered. Trump's using his own security forces, is that correct?

It's tempered by congress, which his party controls, and by the SC, which his party will control with his 9th seat appointment. And by the constitution, but that over the years says what parties in power decide it says.

Yes.
I wasn't clear in my post.
It's my understanding Trump is using his own private security. Is that true?

[StephenDolan]

Well, I never expected to read these words !

I can’t believe Corbyn is arguing for Labour MPs to vote with the most reactionary and xenophobic Tory government we’ve seen for a long time.

This shows a real lack of leadership on his part and does now make me have serious doubts about him.

I didn’t think I’d ever say that!

None other than Militant's own, Derek Hatton !

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/new ... ar_twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When you've lost him Mr Corbyn, you're Brexit stance has put you in a very bad place indeed.

I'm sure that Jez is devastated to lose the support of lifelong worthless demagogue, shyster and gobs***e Hatton.

He may comfort himself, though, knowing that he has the backing of such unlikely people as John Woodcock. Not to mention Dan Jarvis, Michael Dugher, Chuka Umunna, Yvette Cooper and Liz Kendall. In fact most of the PLP will vote with him on A50, whip or no whip. It is even possible that the LibDems could have a higher proportion of their MPs defying the party line than Labour's. If so, I await the "crisis for Farron" headlines in the media

Yes, interesting bedfellows. Copeland and Stoke proving grounds for this approach I guess.

What's the protocol for choosing which amendments are likely to be put forward btw?

[Temulkar]

Polly on fire this morning

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... hip-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And I find myself on the opposite side from Dan Hodges on this question of terminology

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Three cheers for the UK Civil Service system this morning.

No you're wrong and you're ignorant, it is not a case of being on the 'opposite side' of terminology, it is a case of you not having even the basic grasp of what fascism is, and resulted in you trying to doctor a dictionary entry to support your incorrect nonsensical claims yesterday. I see that you have absolutely no shame - much like trump - and are back today with your divisive ignorance and trolling. Happy days, I have little to do today, but puncture the pomposity of your poison.

You'll forgive me, i am sure, if I say I do not agree, and leave it there. I have a cold this morning, and I cannot be bothered wading through the torrent of abuse.

You doctored a dictionary entry to prove a point that was spurious, you have zero credibility left you muppet - if you actually had any with people on here before. You have been utterly exposed as deliberately decietful - a liar in blunt words - so save your faux dignity, your pants are on fire.

[HindleA]

http://www.debbieabrahams.org.uk/2017/a ... rawal-bill" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[SpinningHugo]

Well, I never expected to read these words !

I can’t believe Corbyn is arguing for Labour MPs to vote with the most reactionary and xenophobic Tory government we’ve seen for a long time.

This shows a real lack of leadership on his part and does now make me have serious doubts about him.

I didn’t think I’d ever say that!

None other than Militant's own, Derek Hatton !

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/new ... ar_twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When you've lost him Mr Corbyn, you're Brexit stance has put you in a very bad place indeed.

I'm sure that Jez is devastated to lose the support of lifelong worthless demagogue, shyster and gobs***e Hatton.

He may comfort himself, though, knowing that he has the backing of such unlikely people as John Woodcock. Not to mention Dan Jarvis, Michael Dugher, Chuka Umunna, Yvette Cooper and Liz Kendall. In fact most of the PLP will vote with him on A50, whip or no whip. It is even possible that the LibDems could have a higher proportion of their MPs defying the party line than Labour's. If so, I await the "crisis for Farron" headlines in the media

Why are these people 'unlikely'? They are all the 'realists' who think Labour needs to compromise on freedom of movement to fend of Ukip (I still have some hope for Kendall). Most of them are not in Remain seats (Chuka Umunna is I think, but Streatham is safe nowadays and I'd be surprised if he stood again anyway).

[DrTerror]

New around these parts. Found via google and thought it seemed lovely and a place for good discussion!

[AnatolyKasparov]

I don't see why you have hope for Liz on that basis - she was one of the very first to push the "legitimate concerns on immigration" narrative.

[pk1]

New around these parts. Found via google and thought it seemed lovely and a place for good discussion!

Welcome

For the most part it is civil & friendly but there are topics that always elicit fierce debate, Brexit obviously being one of them.

[citizenJA]

http://www.debbieabrahams.org.uk/2017/a ... rawal-bill

"I am urging my colleagues to accept the democratic will of the people..."

christ, this isn't good enough, it's some kind of bizarre incantation supposed to shut up millions of people who's citizenship rights and privileges they've enjoyed are facing revocation!

Let's find out what that democratic will of the people is, exactly, before we go pulling the trigger, yeah?

[SpinningHugo]

No you're wrong and you're ignorant, it is not a case of being on the 'opposite side' of terminology, it is a case of you not having even the basic grasp of what fascism is, and resulted in you trying to doctor a dictionary entry to support your incorrect nonsensical claims yesterday. I see that you have absolutely no shame - much like trump - and are back today with your divisive ignorance and trolling. Happy days, I have little to do today, but puncture the pomposity of your poison.

You'll forgive me, i am sure, if I say I do not agree, and leave it there. I have a cold this morning, and I cannot be bothered wading through the torrent of abuse.

You doctored a dictionary entry to prove a point that was spurious, you have zero credibility left you muppet - if you actually had any with people on here before. You have been utterly exposed as deliberately decietful - a liar in blunt words - so save your faux dignity, your pants are on fire.

"liar", "troll", "dickwad", "muppet", "gobshite" etc etc. I wonder who you think you will convince with this, other than people who agree with you anyway?

I did no such thing, as it happens. I gave you some perfectly reasonable definitions of fascist and democracy and asked you to agree with them. I never said "this is the OED definition" or anything of that kind. As it happens, I'd give the same definitions again, I think they're right.

Again, I stand by the opinion that claiming that the US is currently "no more a functioning democracy than Germany in 1933" is silly hyperbole, common to the anti-American left, that discredits the speaker.

Despite all of Trump's (appalling) actions, there is not, and will not be, an attempt to end elections in the US. It is a functioning democracy, and however bad he is, claiming he is the same as Hitler or Mussolini shows (politely) a lack of judgement.

I really am going to have to prioritise my cold over debating with you for today though. Abuse is boring at the best of times. I am sure others are even more tired of this than I am.

[citizenJA]

New around these parts. Found via google and thought it seemed lovely and a place for good discussion!

Welcome.

[Temulkar]

Well, I never expected to read these words !
None other than Militant's own, Derek Hatton !

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/new ... ar_twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When you've lost him Mr Corbyn, you're Brexit stance has put you in a very bad place indeed.

I'm sure that Jez is devastated to lose the support of lifelong worthless demagogue, shyster and gobs***e Hatton.

He may comfort himself, though, knowing that he has the backing of such unlikely people as John Woodcock. Not to mention Dan Jarvis, Michael Dugher, Chuka Umunna, Yvette Cooper and Liz Kendall. In fact most of the PLP will vote with him on A50, whip or no whip. It is even possible that the LibDems could have a higher proportion of their MPs defying the party line than Labour's. If so, I await the "crisis for Farron" headlines in the media

Why are these people 'unlikely'? They are all the 'realists' who think Labour needs to compromise on freedom of movement to fend of Ukip (I still have some hope for Kendall). Most of them are not in Remain seats (Chuka Umunna is I think, but Streatham is safe nowadays and I'd be surprised if he stood again anyway).

You're a proven liar why should anyone give credence to your opinions?

[StephenDolan]

New around these parts. Found via google and thought it seemed lovely and a place for good discussion!

Hello there.

I'd be interested to know what the search term you used found FTN.

[SpinningHugo]

I don't see why you have hope for Liz on that basis - she was one of the very first to push the "legitimate concerns on immigration" narrative.

She was, but unlike Cooper has refused to answer the "how will you vote on A50?" question.

For good reason. In a few years time it will be like the vote on Iraq. You'd better get on the right side of history, IMO.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

New around these parts. Found via google and thought it seemed lovely and a place for good discussion!

Hello there.

I'd be interested to know what the search term you used found FTN.

I you searched Jeremy Corbyn it would probably do it

Welcome Dr Terror

[PorFavor]

@DrTerror

Hello!

[citizenJA]

What odds it was, 'kin seething?

[Temulkar]

You'll forgive me, i am sure, if I say I do not agree, and leave it there. I have a cold this morning, and I cannot be bothered wading through the torrent of abuse.

You doctored a dictionary entry to prove a point that was spurious, you have zero credibility left you muppet - if you actually had any with people on here before. You have been utterly exposed as deliberately decietful - a liar in blunt words - so save your faux dignity, your pants are on fire.

"liar", "troll", "dickwad", "muppet", "gobshite" etc etc. I wonder who you think you will convince with this, other than people who agree with you anyway?

I did no such thing, as it happens. I gave you some perfectly reasonable definitions of fascist and democracy and asked you to agree with them. I never said "this is the OED definition" or anything of that kind. As it happens, I'd give the same definitions again, I think they're right.

Again, I stand by the opinion that claiming that the US is currently "no more a functioning democracy than Germany in 1933" is silly hyperbole, common to the anti-American left, that discredits the speaker.

Despite all of Trump's (appalling) actions, there is not, and will not be, an attempt to end elections in the US. It is a functioning democracy, and however bad he is, claiming he is the same as Hitler or Mussolini shows (politely) a lack of judgement.

I really am going to have to prioritise my cold over debating with you for today though. Abuse is boring at the best of times. I am sure others are even more tired of this than I am.

Hugo spinning come on convulvulus you can spin better than that, its there for everybody to see, and the words "liar", "troll", "dickwad", "muppet", "gobshite" are all accurate descriptionns of your behaviour on here. Stop lying trolling being a dickwadded muppet gobshite and maybe I will stop calling you out for one.

You chose to lie and deceive, I choose to call you out on it.

[StephenDolan]

New around these parts. Found via google and thought it seemed lovely and a place for good discussion!

Hello there.

I'd be interested to know what the search term you used found FTN.

I you searched Jeremy Corbyn it would probably do it

Welcome Dr Terror

Goes off to try it out...

[Tubby Isaacs]

I think Jez would have problems with any position but I still don't understand why the "red lines" approach from November was ditched. That scary presentation?

I'd have voted with him if he'd followed through with that..

[AngryAsWell]

A US Presidents' jurisdiction over Federal law enforcement, even the military, is tempered. Trump's using his own security forces, is that correct?

It's tempered by congress, which his party controls, and by the SC, which his party will control with his 9th seat appointment. And by the constitution, but that over the years says what parties in power decide it says.

Yes.
I wasn't clear in my post.
It's my understanding Trump is using his own private security. Is that true?

Last mention of private security (google search) was December 2016, so hard to say.

[PorFavor]

John Bercow, the speaker, says that he has selected the SNP amendment to be put to a vote at the end of the debate tomorrow. (Politics Live, Guardian)

[AngryAsWell]

Richard CorbettVerified account
‏@RCorbettMEP

They told us #Brexit would save money (which would go to the #NHS ), but it's turning out to be very costly.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Interesting that John McDonnell has re tweeted this.

[AngryAsWell]

Early day motion 890
VISIT TO PARLIAMENT BY PRESIDENT TRUMP

https://www.parliament.uk/edm/2016-17/890" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Willow904]

John Bercow, the speaker, says that he has selected the SNP amendment to be put to a vote at the end of the debate tomorrow. (Politics Live, Guardian)

The reasoned amendments from the Greens, Libdems and Plaid Cymru all clearly indicate their opposition to the government taking the UK out of the single market among other things. The SNP one obviously references the lack of consultation with devolved administrations but also references other concerns I strongly agree with.

.The SNP one (tabled by the SNP’s Angus Robertson and signed by 60 other MPs from the SNP, Plaid Cymru, the SDLP and the Greens)

That this House declines to give a Second Reading to the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill as the Government has set out no provision for effective consultation with the devolved administrations on implementing Article 50, has yet to publish a White Paper detailing the Government’s policy proposals, has refused to give a guarantee on the position of EU nationals in the UK, has left unanswered a range of detailed questions covering many policy areas about the full implications of withdrawal from the single market and has provided no assurance that a future parliamentary vote will be anything other than irrelevant, as withdrawal from the European Union followed two years after the invoking of Article 50 if agreement is not reached in the forthcoming negotiations, unless they are prolonged by unanimity.

[PorFavor]

The Lib Dem Tom Brake asks when the government will publish its assessment of the impact of leaving on jobs.

Davis says the claims made by people like Brake about the economic impact of Brexit during the referendum turned out to be wrong. (Politics Live, Guardian)

So that's probably a "never" then.

[frog222]

It's tempered by congress, which his party controls, and by the SC, which his party will control with his 9th seat appointment. And by the constitution, but that over the years says what parties in power decide it says.

Yes.
I wasn't clear in my post.
It's my understanding Trump is using his own private security. Is that true?

Last mention of private security (google search) was December 2016, so hard to say.

Trump's security detail specialised in removing protesters, surprise !

Some of them at least are certainly staying on , being personally very close to him,

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/d ... rce-232797" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2 ... rity-force" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As noted in the articles Trump's need for 'loyalty' tr*mps the very best security . And as with Jared Kushner et al, he needs all the cronies he can get ...

[yahyah]

Anyone hear Ken Clarke ?

[yahyah]

Not sure if this is word for word from Clarke.
''I've had times as a Tory MP when the country voted Labour. Tory whips never told me I had to respect the decision and vote Labour''.

Well done him. He quoted Burke at the end. He's been applauded.

[AngryAsWell]

Anyone hear Ken Clarke ?

Yes - excellent speech by Ken.

[yahyah]

Maybe it'll poke at a few consciences.

[RogerOThornhill]

re the above.

steve richards ‏@steverichards14 8m8 minutes ago

KenClarke's speech similar to R Cook's pre Iraq- will be cited and admired when he proves to be right. All pro EU Lab MPs should be with him

[Temulkar]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... ebook-post" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[yahyah]

What a rotten day, to have to praise a Tory for standing up for people who have a right to be represented.

[DrTerror]

Did anyone see Farage on Loose Women? There aren't enough words to express my hatred for that man.

[Tubby Isaacs]

The Lib Dem Tom Brake asks when the government will publish its assessment of the impact of leaving on jobs.

Davis says the claims made by people like Brake about the economic impact of Brexit during the referendum turned out to be wrong. (Politics Live, Guardian)

So that's probably a "never" then.

Jobs are a metropolitan elite concern that won't wash with Brexit pensioners.

[Temulkar]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... opposition" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[gilsey]

Maybe it'll poke at a few consciences.

Where are tory MPs consciences? Haven't been seen for ages, on any subject.

If a few speak up over brexit it'll hardly make up for everything else they've done.

I'd guess that Ken Clarke was less than impressed with Gideon's austerity programme in 2010, because he would know how it would affect the economy, he didn't make much noise then.

[gilsey]

re the above.

steve richards ‏@steverichards14 8m8 minutes ago

KenClarke's speech similar to R Cook's pre Iraq- will be cited and admired when he proves to be right. All pro EU Lab MPs should be with him

Steve Richard's piece here contains a line that might prove to be very wrong.
http://www.totalpolitics.com/articles/o ... 9w.twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

While they were in the air Trump had imposed his unfocused, foolish, provocatively selective and counter productive ban on citizens from seven Muslim dominated countries.

A naive interpretation imo.
Counter productive depends on what they were trying to achieve, does he really think preventing terrorism was top of the list?

[AnatolyKasparov]

Let's see how many other Tory MPs join Clarke in voting against A50 then, I'm guessing the answer is somewhere in the region of 0.

And it doesn't matter how well crafted the speech was, conflating GE's and referendums is a *fallacy* - and I'm going to carry on pointing that out as often as needed

[SpinningHugo]

Let's see how many other Tory MPs join Clarke in voting against A50 then, I'm guessing the answer is somewhere in the region of 0.

And it doesn't matter how well crafted the speech was, conflating GE's and referendums is a *fallacy* - and I'm going to carry on pointing that out as often as needed

So, I assume from that, that you approve of MPs voting for the government's Bill after the amendments fail?

I don't. In a few years time the parties doing that will suffer long term damage (the Tories will be ok, as they'll hoover up the old Ukip vote).

[PorFavor]

Anyone hear Ken Clarke ?

Yes - excellent speech by Ken.

I was thinking along those (Kenneth Clarke's) lines yesterday (oh, yeah? I hear you all say) and wondered why Jeremy Corbyn wasn't thinking, acting and saying things of that nature. Especially as the Referendum is, I believe, advisory. Is he cowed by the Referendum turnout?

I little thought that I'd find myself having anything much in common with Kenneth Clarke.

[AnatolyKasparov]

No, I'm just pointing out people lavishing praise on Clarke's speech are missing the point. He is, quite literally, a minority of one in the Tories now.

Most of the PLP are going to vote for A50 to pass, you know this, and they would do so whatever Corbyn did or said.

[SpinningHugo]

No, I'm just pointing out people lavishing praise on Clarke's speech are missing the point. He is, quite literally, a minority of one in the Tories now.

Most of the PLP are going to vote for A50 to pass, you know this, and they would do so whatever Corbyn did or said.

Which is all fine.

I am asking what you would do.

Which way would you vote once, as inevitably will happen, all the amendments fail?

Are they doing the right thing or not?

[NonOxCol]

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If someone like me is ready to forgive this woman for Central Weekend, we really are at a pretty old pass.

[yahyah]

Maybe it'll poke at a few consciences.

Where are tory MPs consciences? Haven't been seen for ages, on any subject.

If a few speak up over brexit it'll hardly make up for everything else they've done.

I'd guess that Ken Clarke was less than impressed with Gideon's austerity programme in 2010, because he would know how it would affect the economy, he didn't make much noise then.

This is now, not then. Better something than nothing.
We know Tories have deeply submerged consciences. I've never voted for them, never donated to them, never joined their party. I have done all three with Labour. It is difficult for the Tories to disappoint me as I expect the worse from them.

[Temulkar]

Let's see how many other Tory MPs join Clarke in voting against A50 then, I'm guessing the answer is somewhere in the region of 0.

And it doesn't matter how well crafted the speech was, conflating GE's and referendums is a *fallacy* - and I'm going to carry on pointing that out as often as needed

So, I assume from that, that you approve of MPs voting for the government's Bill after the amendments fail?

I don't. In a few years time the parties doing that will suffer long term damage (the Tories will be ok, as they'll hoover up the old Ukip vote).

But you are a proven liar, Convolvulus, someone who deceitfully doctors dictionary entries can't be trusted to have an objective opinion - ooh that's almost a tongue twister; see if you can say deceitfully doctors dictionary entries whilst doctoring a dictionary entry five times...

[StephenDolan]

If someone like me is ready to forgive this woman for Central Weekend, we really are at a pretty old pass.

She is waving it through,shedding crocodile tears and blaming labour.

[Willow904]

Anna Soubry spot on:

She says she does not think history will be kind to this government or this parliament. Why did it put an option to people that would leave them worse off?

Absolutely. And yes, she's going to vote for article 50 anyway, but because she has argued against leaving the single market so consistently and has indicated over and over again that leaving the EU is a mistake she has still provided more opposition to Theresa May and this bill than Jeremy Corbyn.