Tuesday 31st January 2017

[pk1]

A Parliamentary debate in response to the petition re the Trump state visit has been tabled for Feb 20th

[frog222]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... ebook-post

<b> The US is in the middle of a coup by Donald Trump, Michael Moore warns</b>

That article quotes from this which was posted here a day or so ago

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Apart from the suspicion that Trump has been bribed by the Russkies (!) it all hangs together very well indeed.

Well, I wouldn't put anything past Trump ... either , tho beware of Fake News

Putting this Indie comment in full, it follows through from the articles --

Csefi

I think the real story here is that POTUS is really Steve Bannon with a comedy Trump mask on.

Bannon knew that it would take the charisma and sheer force of a guy like Trump to get into the Whitehouse. There's no other candidate that could have done that - Cruz, Rubio et al. (Side note: maybe they could have beaten Hillary, but wouldn't have taken Bannon with them.)

He, Bannon, then snuck in the back door.

But he also knows that Trump is unpredictable and reactionary, and that he is highly likely to remove himself from power by making a dumb political or unconstitutional move (maybe like passing dodgy Exec Orders and sacking the Attorney General?!) or doing something criminal to impeach himself (conflict of interest, insider dealing etc).

This is part of the plan.

Reports are of a close inner circle of Trump, Bannon, Priebus, plus maybe Conway and Kushner (though as Family Trump, Kushner won't be in on the real deal). Bannon strategically positions himself into unassailable power with moves such as replacing the chairman of the joint chiefs on the NSC.

As with Russia, Trump's ego once again prevents him from seeing that he's being played. He'll be impeached, and the GOP will breath a huge sigh of relief. The GOP will then play the crowd presenting themselves as the good guys for getting rid of the loose cannon.

This ensures their favourite young earth creationist Mike Pence will take power - all the while with Bannon and the alt right holding the puppet strings.

Cue 3-4 years of significant impact on civil liberties, and a relentlessly pursued Christian-right and authoritarian agenda.

I really think that Bannon et al probably realise they only have until 2020 to do what they can before losing power, so expect far reaching and very bold moves to shore up the Christian base, push authoritarianism, and move the needle on what is considered "normal" way over to the right.

This is fascinating politics, and a truly Machiavellian long game by Bannon.

XX

[pk1]

Stephen Gethins, the SNP’s Europe spokesman, said:

Europe is where our future still lies. One where we tackle inequality, climate change, research, welcome refugees, give young people the opportunities – pooling our sovereignty with like-minded states.
That is the kind of Scotland I believe in and one where we work as a true partner of equals with the other States of the UK and Europe.
Passing this Bill would turn its back on the progress we have made and disrespect the devolution settlement.
This is a backward and damaging step. It is an act of constitutional and economic sabotage and I cannot and will not back it.

Bravo Mr Gethins, bravo

Just goes to show that there are times we can applaud parties in opposition to the ones we support whilst railing against decisions made by the party we deem our own

[PorFavor]

[John Redwood] says if remain had won, he would have stood down as an MP. He would not have seen the point of carrying on because parliament would have carried on having so little power. (Politics Live, Guardian)

Talk about rubbing salt in the wounds.

[StephenDolan]

Anna Soubry spot on:

She says she does not think history will be kind to this government or this parliament. Why did it put an option to people that would leave them worse off?

Absolutely. And yes, she's going to vote for article 50 anyway, but because she has argued against leaving the single market so consistently and has indicated over and over again that leaving the EU is a mistake she has still provided more opposition to Theresa May and this bill than Jeremy Corbyn.

Soubry is waving this through without so much as a reference to the SNP amendment even though she's totally against it. And this makes her principled. With heavy heart bollocks. Then blame Labour. This is Cameron's mess, your party's mess. Your leader is the one bulldozing this joke of Bill through. Just because a tory takes a break from being Tory like they should be applauded and held in high regard? Bollocks to that, they should be judged by how they have acted, are acting and how they act in the future.

This holding them to a different standard because they're not Labour MPs. Ridiculous.

[PorFavor]

MPs to debate petition saying Trump's state visit to UK should be cancelled (Politics Live, Guardian)

The petition stands at 1,684,766 (last time I looked).

[StephenDolan]

MPs to debate petition saying Trump's state visit to UK should be cancelled (Politics Live, Guardian)

The petition stands at 1,684,766 (last time I looked).

Yes but it's less than half of the population so it's pointless. And anyway, any special snowflakes can sign a stupid petition, go on a rally, it doesn't mean that the public care. All those that haven't signed are pro Trump, pro the special relationship and pro this fine government. Fact.

[NonOxCol]

Anna Soubry spot on:

She says she does not think history will be kind to this government or this parliament. Why did it put an option to people that would leave them worse off?

Absolutely. And yes, she's going to vote for article 50 anyway, but because she has argued against leaving the single market so consistently and has indicated over and over again that leaving the EU is a mistake she has still provided more opposition to Theresa May and this bill than Jeremy Corbyn.

Soubry is waving this through without so much as a reference to the SNP amendment even though she's totally against it. And this makes her principled. With heavy heart bollocks. Then blame Labour. This is Cameron's mess, your party's mess. Your leader is the one bulldozing this joke of Bill through. Just because a tory takes a break from being Tory like they should be applauded and held in high regard? Bollocks to that, they should be judged by how they have acted, are acting and how they act in the future.

This holding them to a different standard because they're not Labour MPs. Ridiculous.

Yeah, fair enough. I have weak moments occasionally - saw one great-sounding quote tweet before realising what she was actually voting for.

[PorFavor]

Strange that Donald Trump hasn't mentioned the opposition to his State Visit (fake news, bad dudes, or whatever). We're so special, he probably hasn't been paying attention having stowed the invitation away behind the mantle clock until needed.

[citizenJA]

Trump's security detail specialised in removing protesters, surprise !

Some of them at least are certainly staying on , being personally very close to him,

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/d ... rce-232797" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2 ... rity-force" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As noted in the articles Trump's need for 'loyalty' tr*mps the very best security . And as with Jared Kushner et al, he needs all the cronies he can get ...

(cJA edit)

Thank you! The Christian Science Monitor (CSM) is a good publication, thanks for finding it. I thought I'd seen Trump and his private hires.

Trump could set new precedent with private security force
In an unprecedented move, President-elect Donald Trump continues to employ a private security and intelligence team and is expected to keep some members of the team after his inauguration.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2 ... rity-force" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Tubby Isaacs]

If someone like me is ready to forgive this woman for Central Weekend, we really are at a pretty old pass.

There was a Central Weekend presenter called Sue Jay I remembered just now. Used to look less than respectful of the man in the pub frothers, IIRC.

[citizenJA]

Did anyone see Farage on Loose Women? There aren't enough words to express my hatred for that man.

Nope.
Do you have any chocolate, please?

[Willow904]

Anna Soubry spot on:

She says she does not think history will be kind to this government or this parliament. Why did it put an option to people that would leave them worse off?

Absolutely. And yes, she's going to vote for article 50 anyway, but because she has argued against leaving the single market so consistently and has indicated over and over again that leaving the EU is a mistake she has still provided more opposition to Theresa May and this bill than Jeremy Corbyn.

Soubry is waving this through without so much as a reference to the SNP amendment even though she's totally against it. And this makes her principled. With heavy heart bollocks. Then blame Labour. This is Cameron's mess, your party's mess. Your leader is the one bulldozing this joke of Bill through. Just because a tory takes a break from being Tory like they should be applauded and held in high regard? Bollocks to that, they should be judged by how they have acted, are acting and how they act in the future.

This holding them to a different standard because they're not Labour MPs. Ridiculous.

What different standard? I'm being told to support Corbyn even though he is voting for article 50 and even though he has not been standing up for the single market. At least Soubry has stood up for the single market even if she is still voting for article 50. Which is slightly better. She's taken the Clive Lewis line. I can still see myself forgiving Lewis eventually for voting for article 50 because he made it clear he thinks it's a mistake even if he feels he has to vote for it. I suspect I will never be able to forgive Corbyn because he has always wanted this and not just out of the EU but out of the single market. Why is that so hard to understand?

[citizenJA]

No, I'm just pointing out people lavishing praise on Clarke's speech are missing the point. He is, quite literally, a minority of one in the Tories now.

(cJA edit)

How did the Tories manage that cohesiveness, please? I'm asking everyone that question. I don't know how they do it.

[PorFavor]

It occurs to me to wonder how "Leave" voters feel about the potential security of tenure (for want of a better phrase) for EU migrants who are already here. I'll bet a lot of them didn't see that coming.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Meanwhile Starmer getting a good deal of praise for his honest and heartfelt contribution.

If we can all hold together we can start to turn the Brexit tide.

[Willow904]

No, I'm just pointing out people lavishing praise on Clarke's speech are missing the point. He is, quite literally, a minority of one in the Tories now.

(cJA edit)

How did the Tories manage that cohesiveness, please? I'm asking everyone that question. I don't know how they do it.

Unlike every other party bar Ukip, a majority of Tory supporters voted "leave" in the referendum.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

It occurs to me to wonder how "Leave" voters feel about the potential security of tenure (for want of a better phrase) for EU migrants who are already here. I'll bet a lot of them didn't see that coming.

Well indeed. And who doesn't have a family member or friend who will be affected by this?

[NonOxCol]

A better overview than Dan Hodges:

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Good enough for me.

[StephenDolan]

Anna Soubry spot on: Absolutely. And yes, she's going to vote for article 50 anyway, but because she has argued against leaving the single market so consistently and has indicated over and over again that leaving the EU is a mistake she has still provided more opposition to Theresa May and this bill than Jeremy Corbyn.

Soubry is waving this through without so much as a reference to the SNP amendment even though she's totally against it. And this makes her principled. With heavy heart bollocks. Then blame Labour. This is Cameron's mess, your party's mess. Your leader is the one bulldozing this joke of Bill through. Just because a tory takes a break from being Tory like they should be applauded and held in high regard? Bollocks to that, they should be judged by how they have acted, are acting and how they act in the future.

This holding them to a different standard because they're not Labour MPs. Ridiculous.

What different standard? I'm being told to support Corbyn even though he is voting for article 50 and even though he has not been standing up for the single market. At least Soubry has stood up for the single market even if she is still voting for article 50. Which is slightly better. She's taken the Clive Lewis line. I can still see myself forgiving Lewis eventually for voting for article 50 because he made it clear he thinks it's a mistake even if he feels he has to vote for it. I suspect I will never be able to forgive Corbyn because he has always wanted this and not just out of the EU but out of the single market. Why is that so hard to understand?

Is this a fair summary of what you've put?

Soubry has demonstrated she's against leaving, is pro single market but will vote to invoke A50.

Corbyn has in the past been against the EU, question whether he wants to stay in the single market but will vote to invoke A50.

[Willow904]

The Tory government are taking us out of the European Union because a majority of Tory voters want them to.

Labour are helping the Tories take us out of the European Union because there are currently slightly more Tory voters than Labour voters altogether.

Aren't referendums great?

[citizenJA]

If someone like me is ready to forgive this woman for Central Weekend, we really are at a pretty old pass.

If she votes against it and leaves the Tory party, helps fix what was broken during the last seven years of Tory government, I'll be glad.

[StephenDolan]

No, I'm just pointing out people lavishing praise on Clarke's speech are missing the point. He is, quite literally, a minority of one in the Tories now.

(cJA edit)

How did the Tories manage that cohesiveness, please? I'm asking everyone that question. I don't know how they do it.

Unlike every other party bar Ukip, a majority of Tory supporters voted "leave" in the referendum.

42% of Conservative voters voted to Remain.

Not an inconsiderable percentage.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

The Tory government are taking us out of the European Union because a majority of Tory voters want them to.

Labour are helping the Tories take us out of the European Union because there are currently slightly more Tory voters than Labour voters altogether.

Aren't referendums great?

No Willow

Please please don't misrepresent this.

Labour are seeking to amend the Brexit bill in a serious attempt to limit the damage the Tories are doing to the vulnerable in the UK.

I know you wouldn't have done it this way, but it is I believe a sincere, coherent, adult approach to a hugely complex situation. And deserves to be respected as such.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

(cJA edit)

How did the Tories manage that cohesiveness, please? I'm asking everyone that question. I don't know how they do it.

Unlike every other party bar Ukip, a majority of Tory supporters voted "leave" in the referendum.

42% of Conservative voters voted to Remain.

Not an inconsiderable percentage.

Probably more in numbers than 65% of Labour voters?

That's what's slightly odd about this debate. On the one hand Corbyn is derided for reducing the Labour vote to a handful of voters. On the other hand because most of the handful are pro-EU the same people say he should be hard remain.

[AngryAsWell]

How to Build an Autocracy
The preconditions are present in the U.S. today. Here’s the playbook Donald Trump could use to set the country down a path toward illiberalism.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... cy/513872/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A long long read - but interesting

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Keir Starmer

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38799686" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[AngryAsWell]

Keir Starmer's funeral lament shows Labour's Brexit plight
As the shadow Brexit secretary sorrowfully remarked, Article 50 is "very difficult" for the party.

Starmer's battle is not over whether the UK leaves the EU but how it does so. Labour has tabled amendments demanding "full tariff and impediment free access to the Single Market", the protection of workers' rights and guaranteed legal rights for EU nationals living in Britain. Starmer's stated ambition is not to speak for the 52 per cent or the 48 per cent but "the 100 per cent". Yet the risk remains that in seeking to speak for all, Labour speaks for none. It risks losing Remain voters to the Liberal Democrats, the SNP and the Greens, Leave voters to Ukip (in protest at its non-opposition to free movement) and both to the Tories. A popular and competent leader, Labour MPs lament, could build a bridge between the two sides. But Corbyn, they believe, is incapable of doing so.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/st ... ster-mayor" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[StephenDolan]

Keir Starmer's funeral lament shows Labour's Brexit plight
As the shadow Brexit secretary sorrowfully remarked, Article 50 is "very difficult" for the party.

Starmer's battle is not over whether the UK leaves the EU but how it does so. Labour has tabled amendments demanding "full tariff and impediment free access to the Single Market", the protection of workers' rights and guaranteed legal rights for EU nationals living in Britain. Starmer's stated ambition is not to speak for the 52 per cent or the 48 per cent but "the 100 per cent". Yet the risk remains that in seeking to speak for all, Labour speaks for none. It risks losing Remain voters to the Liberal Democrats, the SNP and the Greens, Leave voters to Ukip (in protest at its non-opposition to free movement) and both to the Tories. A popular and competent leader, Labour MPs lament, could build a bridge between the two sides. But Corbyn, they believe, is incapable of doing so.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/st ... ster-mayor" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Chuka to the rescue!

[Willow904]

The Tory government are taking us out of the European Union because a majority of Tory voters want them to.

Labour are helping the Tories take us out of the European Union because there are currently slightly more Tory voters than Labour voters altogether.

Aren't referendums great?

No Willow

Please please don't misrepresent this.

Labour are seeking to amend the Brexit bill in a serious attempt to limit the damage the Tories are doing to the vulnerable in the UK.

I know you wouldn't have done it this way, but it is I believe a sincere, coherent, adult approach to a hugely complex situation. And deserves to be respected as such.

And if no amendments pass?

And are you really going to argue that holding a referendum was a good way of deciding something as complex as our political, economic and cultural relationship with Europe? Are you really denying that it is the Tories who have always wanted to take us out of Europe and they have finally, via Ukip (nearly all ex Tories) finally done it?

[citizenJA]

Maybe it'll poke at a few consciences.

Where are tory MPs consciences? Haven't been seen for ages, on any subject.

If a few speak up over brexit it'll hardly make up for everything else they've done.

I'd guess that Ken Clarke was less than impressed with Gideon's austerity programme in 2010, because he would know how it would affect the economy, he didn't make much noise then.

This is now, not then. Better something than nothing.
We know Tories have deeply submerged consciences. I've never voted for them, never donated to them, never joined their party. I have done all three with Labour. It is difficult for the Tories to disappoint me as I expect the worse from them.

(cJA bold)

Ah, sister, yes! The warmth of feeling towards a Tory sounding like they belong in a more wholesome political party. It's all very well, every now and then a Tory doing something politically good. The Tory party is a bad political party. They're elitist, they don't care about the well-being of most people and Tories act in the interests of only a few. That's Tory history. That's Tory party history. People belonging to the Tory party and/or Tory MPs are human beings and I'm sure they're individually nice to others a lot of times. But the Tory party isn't a good political party for the people or country. I wish I were wrong. Then it'd be only one person have to change her mind and everything be okay. I'd love it.

Ken Clarke sounded okay today. I'll have to go read it.

[AngryAsWell]

Keir Starmer's funeral lament shows Labour's Brexit plight
As the shadow Brexit secretary sorrowfully remarked, Article 50 is "very difficult" for the party.

Starmer's battle is not over whether the UK leaves the EU but how it does so. Labour has tabled amendments demanding "full tariff and impediment free access to the Single Market", the protection of workers' rights and guaranteed legal rights for EU nationals living in Britain. Starmer's stated ambition is not to speak for the 52 per cent or the 48 per cent but "the 100 per cent". Yet the risk remains that in seeking to speak for all, Labour speaks for none. It risks losing Remain voters to the Liberal Democrats, the SNP and the Greens, Leave voters to Ukip (in protest at its non-opposition to free movement) and both to the Tories. A popular and competent leader, Labour MPs lament, could build a bridge between the two sides. But Corbyn, they believe, is incapable of doing so.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/st ... ster-mayor" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is the wrong link and I'm busy trying to find the right one as I've closed the page No idea how that happened as I've not even read the page it opens

[AngryAsWell]

Keir Starmer's funeral lament shows Labour's Brexit plight
As the shadow Brexit secretary sorrowfully remarked, Article 50 is "very difficult" for the party.

Starmer's battle is not over whether the UK leaves the EU but how it does so. Labour has tabled amendments demanding "full tariff and impediment free access to the Single Market", the protection of workers' rights and guaranteed legal rights for EU nationals living in Britain. Starmer's stated ambition is not to speak for the 52 per cent or the 48 per cent but "the 100 per cent". Yet the risk remains that in seeking to speak for all, Labour speaks for none. It risks losing Remain voters to the Liberal Democrats, the SNP and the Greens, Leave voters to Ukip (in protest at its non-opposition to free movement) and both to the Tories. A popular and competent leader, Labour MPs lament, could build a bridge between the two sides. But Corbyn, they believe, is incapable of doing so.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/st ... ster-mayor" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is the wrong link and I'm busy trying to find the right one as I've closed the page No idea how that happened as I've not even read the page it opens

This is the right one - I think ! http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk ... xit-plight" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[SpinningHugo]

The Tory government are taking us out of the European Union because a majority of Tory voters want them to.

Labour are helping the Tories take us out of the European Union because there are currently slightly more Tory voters than Labour voters altogether.

Aren't referendums great?

No Willow

Please please don't misrepresent this.

Labour are seeking to amend the Brexit bill in a serious attempt to limit the damage the Tories are doing to the vulnerable in the UK.

I know you wouldn't have done it this way, but it is I believe a sincere, coherent, adult approach to a hugely complex situation. And deserves to be respected as such.

And if no amendments pass?

And are you really going to argue that holding a referendum was a good way of deciding something as complex as our political, economic and cultural relationship with Europe? Are you really denying that it is the Tories who have always wanted to take us out of Europe and they have finally, via Ukip (nearly all ex Tories) finally done it?

That question shows why the amendments can't provide a shield.

All the amendments will fail. the Tories have a majority and oppose them.

What then?

if YOU were a Labour MP, what would you do?

Vote for Art 50, or against?

Be on the right side.

[citizenJA]

Anna Soubry spot on:

She says she does not think history will be kind to this government or this parliament. Why did it put an option to people that would leave them worse off?

Absolutely. And yes, she's going to vote for article 50 anyway, but because she has argued against leaving the single market so consistently and has indicated over and over again that leaving the EU is a mistake she has still provided more opposition to Theresa May and this bill than Jeremy Corbyn.

You're right. I can't agree with Corbyn's Labour party position taking the UK out of the single market. I'd have to vote elsewhere because it's a bad choice. That's more than Soubry will do. Her talk is briefly poignant. I urge her and the every other Parliamentarian to alter their current course of action.

[AngryAsWell]

Keir Starmer's funeral lament shows Labour's Brexit plight
As the shadow Brexit secretary sorrowfully remarked, Article 50 is "very difficult" for the party.

Starmer's battle is not over whether the UK leaves the EU but how it does so. Labour has tabled amendments demanding "full tariff and impediment free access to the Single Market", the protection of workers' rights and guaranteed legal rights for EU nationals living in Britain. Starmer's stated ambition is not to speak for the 52 per cent or the 48 per cent but "the 100 per cent". Yet the risk remains that in seeking to speak for all, Labour speaks for none. It risks losing Remain voters to the Liberal Democrats, the SNP and the Greens, Leave voters to Ukip (in protest at its non-opposition to free movement) and both to the Tories. A popular and competent leader, Labour MPs lament, could build a bridge between the two sides. But Corbyn, they believe, is incapable of doing so.


Chuka to the rescue!

? Why Chuka ?

[Willow904]

Soubry is waving this through without so much as a reference to the SNP amendment even though she's totally against it. And this makes her principled. With heavy heart bollocks. Then blame Labour. This is Cameron's mess, your party's mess. Your leader is the one bulldozing this joke of Bill through. Just because a tory takes a break from being Tory like they should be applauded and held in high regard? Bollocks to that, they should be judged by how they have acted, are acting and how they act in the future.

This holding them to a different standard because they're not Labour MPs. Ridiculous.

What different standard? I'm being told to support Corbyn even though he is voting for article 50 and even though he has not been standing up for the single market. At least Soubry has stood up for the single market even if she is still voting for article 50. Which is slightly better. She's taken the Clive Lewis line. I can still see myself forgiving Lewis eventually for voting for article 50 because he made it clear he thinks it's a mistake even if he feels he has to vote for it. I suspect I will never be able to forgive Corbyn because he has always wanted this and not just out of the EU but out of the single market. Why is that so hard to understand?

Is this a fair summary of what you've put?

Soubry has demonstrated she's against leaving, is pro single market but will vote to invoke A50.

Corbyn has in the past been against the EU, question whether he wants to stay in the single market but will vote to invoke A50.

Yes.

And I hope I really don't have to clarify every time, when I say I agree with a point someone has made, I mean that point, not them and their views in general.

If you believe staying in the single market is right, there is nothing wrong in arguing this, even you feel you have to vote to take us out of the EU. Corbyn has not argued to stay in the single market. I can only assume this is because he doesn't believe it or is afraid of losing votes. Neither explanation is particularly acceptable to me.

[citizenJA]

if YOU were a Labour MP, what would you do?

(cJA edit)

Made sure the EU referendum bill never got passed without putting 'Gordon Brown UK-Euro-Yes-No?' rules into the legislation.

[HindleA]

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/digi ... tep-closer" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Digital tax revolution moves a step closer

Hope they've considered "businesses" ie.people using direct payments in this.

[citizenJA]

I've got good chocolate. Please help yourselves.

[Temulkar]

No Willow

Please please don't misrepresent this.

Labour are seeking to amend the Brexit bill in a serious attempt to limit the damage the Tories are doing to the vulnerable in the UK.

I know you wouldn't have done it this way, but it is I believe a sincere, coherent, adult approach to a hugely complex situation. And deserves to be respected as such.

And if no amendments pass?

And are you really going to argue that holding a referendum was a good way of deciding something as complex as our political, economic and cultural relationship with Europe? Are you really denying that it is the Tories who have always wanted to take us out of Europe and they have finally, via Ukip (nearly all ex Tories) finally done it?

That question shows why the amendments can't provide a shield.

All the amendments will fail. the Tories have a majority and oppose them.

What then?

if YOU were a Labour MP, what would you do?

Vote for Art 50, or against?

Be on the right side.

Says a proven liar.

[yahyah]

Thanks JA.

[HindleA]

Is it me,or does that look like Vince Cable.

[Temulkar]

Is it me,or does that look like Vince Cable.

With a touch of the osborne dungeon... It's how i like to imagine Spinning Hugo - scheming and plotting his division.

[citizenJA]

The Tory government are taking us out of the European Union because a majority of Tory voters want them to.

Labour are helping the Tories take us out of the European Union because there are currently slightly more Tory voters than Labour voters altogether.

Aren't referendums great?

No Willow

Please please don't misrepresent this.

Labour are seeking to amend the Brexit bill in a serious attempt to limit the damage the Tories are doing to the vulnerable in the UK.

I know you wouldn't have done it this way, but it is I believe a sincere, coherent, adult approach to a hugely complex situation. And deserves to be respected as such.

You've misunderstood Willow's point, Paul. Leave voters are predominately Tory/UKIP supporters/voters. Labour won't find companionship or Labour party voters among them.
Leaving the EU is not the Labour party position. 'The will of the people' is a little more than half of the people, apparently. My head hits the desktop.

[Temulkar]

The mistake the left made in 33 was to think that he would make such an all mighty mess of running the country that they would be a shoo in at the next election. By the next election they were in prison, their parties banned, and a democracy destroyed.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[yahyah]

Just read Gaby Hinchcliff's piece on Ed M. Can't help wondering ''what if ?'' about how much better he'd do if he was taking on the leadership now not back in 2010 when he was a bit wet behind the ears.

[RogerOThornhill]

Just read Gaby Hinchcliff's piece on Ed M. Can't help wondering ''what if ?'' about how much better he'd do if he was taking on the leadership now not back in 2010 when he was a bit wet behind the ears.

Not sure that's true to be fair to EM - he had been a cabinet minister, and also a minister in the Cabinet Office. Going into 2015 he had had far more experience of government than Cameron in 2010 whose experience was...zero. And it showed.

Edit - the issue that he had was that according to more than a handful of people "the wrong brother won". We know who they are...

[yahyah]

Kate Green says she will abstain.

[yahyah]

Just read Gaby Hinchcliff's piece on Ed M. Can't help wondering ''what if ?'' about how much better he'd do if he was taking on the leadership now not back in 2010 when he was a bit wet behind the ears.

Not sure that's true to be fair to EM - he had been a cabinet minister, and also a minister in the Cabinet Office. Going into 2015 he had had far more experience of government than Cameron in 2010 whose experience was...zero. And it showed.

I don't mean his political experience, he wasn't lacking that, but the way he put himself across sometimes suggested diffidence. He exudes more confidence now.