Friday 3rd February 2017

[refitman]

Morning all.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Morning!

I see the Indy is pushing the Brexit doesn't mean Brexit angle we were discussing yesterday. Migration from Europe won't stop after Brexit!

[PorFavor]

Good morfternoon.

[yahyah]

Morning.

Thanks to SH for providing the background to yet another big Lib Dem gain, this time in Rotherham.
The fact that the outgoing Labour man was convicted of sexual assault obviously didn't help them keep the seat. But it won't stop the Lib Dems crowing. Some comfort in seeing Ukip down 16%.
The turnout was 32%. Dinnington, where Labour won, was only 19% turnout but good to see a Labour gain, particularly one taken from the Kippers.

Also, as Mike Smithson points out frequently, the Lib Dems are winning council seats in their 'fightback', and winning well in Leave areas despite their pro-EU stance. (Not just where the outgoing councillor is a perv). Yes, he would say that because he is a Lib Dem, but he may not be wrong that Labour are making a mistake in following the 'will of the people' so slavishly.

[PorFavor]

Thanks for all the post- (my) bedtime comments. I think I've now caught up.

I've now got coal scuttles stuck in my head, though.

[yahyah]

At least bananas are edible. Coal scuttle and custard or top of the milk ?

[NonOxCol]

Morning.

So, QT was on last night. I haven't watched since December 2011. Anyway, this really happened.

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[HindleA]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38846115?o ... ce=twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Disability benefits cuts should be delayed, MPs say.

"In addition to ESA, we also offer support through Personal Independence Payments, to help with the extra costs associated with being disabled."

Deceitful bollox,trouble is it "sounds" reasonable.No logical reason that support group is next,funnily enough that is exactly what Reform advocate.

[NonOxCol]

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Foreign policy insider: ‘No readout of Trump-Putin call because White House turned off recording’

[HindleA]

PIP of course kicks in as soon as there are extra costs of course,or possibly not,or not at all.

[yahyah]

Have just watched NonOxCol's link.

Where are all these straight bananas ? Seriously. Where are they ?
All the bananas I buy bend up at least one end if not both ends. There are bunches of the little devils that look like a gorilla's hand, fingers curled up.

Last year I heard a middle class woman on Any Answers piping up about the EU controlling things related to her children. She said they were banned from blowing up balloons.
That appears to be another one of the scare tactics used by Leave.
The truth is that the EU advises supervision of young children when they blow up balloons because of the risk of inhaling back the latex. Small airways, not a good idea to risk choking is it ?

Her argument seemed to be 'Us Brits should have the sovereign right to let our children risk choking to death and no foreigner is going to stop us having that freedom'.
Even though the EU had not banned children from blowing up balloons.

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_ME ... ?locale=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[yahyah]

I hope someone's keeping a list of reasons to Brexit.

1. I went to the supermarket and the bananas were straight.
2. The EU were nasty to Greece, vote Leave to punish them and give Merkel a headache.
3. Immigration. Too many foreigners. Not the right kind of foreigners. I'm not racist but I don't like foreigners. Illegal immigrants stole my bendy banana.
4. EU 'elf & safety's gorn mad mate.
5. He's a larf that Boris.
6. I'm not voting Brexit, I'm voting for Lexit. Haven't got the foggiest idea how that will work with the Tories in charge, but hey, I'm a dreamer.
7. Brexit will start the collapse of the EU.
8. Lexit will start the collapse of the EU, and in the chaos that ensues we'll build a socialist utopia.
It'll be a gas, man. What we've dreamt of since the 60's. Right on and to the barricades.
9. If you vote Remain you are with Osborne & Cameron so vote Leave to stick it to them.
10. That nice Mr Farage said we'd get £350 million a week more for the NHS.
11. Vote Brexit to shake up the elites.

edited to add, after reading a post below:

12. I voted Leave to stop millions of Turks coming to Britain.

[yahyah]

But I'm not bitter.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

If for nobody else, it was helpful to me to focus on one section of the *hite Paper yesterday, so I hope it's OK to post again.

Section 2 is hardly worth bothering. It says we'll leave the EU Court of Justice and that we'll need replacement mechanisms to resolve trade disputes and that such things exist. Err yes thanks for that guys.

So, here goes with Section 3!

[PaulfromYorkshire]

STRENGTHENING THE UNION
It is more important than ever that we face the future together, united by what makes us strong: the bonds that unite us, and our shared interest in the UK being an open, successful trading nation.
3.1 We have ensured since the referendum that the devolved administrations are fully engaged in our preparations to leave the EU and we are working with the administrations in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to deliver an outcome that works for the whole of the UK. In seeking such a deal we will look to secure the specific interests of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, as well as those of all parts of England. A good deal will be one that works for all parts of the UK.
3.2 The Prime Minister has already chaired two plenary meetings of the Joint Ministerial Committee, which brings together the leaders of the devolved administrations of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The first meeting agreed to set up a Joint Ministerial Committee on EU Negotiations (JMC(EN)), so ministers from each of the devolved administrations can contribute to the process of planning for our departure from the EU. At the January plenary session of the Joint Ministerial Committee, ministers agreed to intensify their work ahead of the triggering of Article 50 and to continue at the same pace thereafter.

The Joint Ministerial Committee on EU Negotiations (JMC(EN))
The JMC(EN) is chaired by the Secretary of State for Exiting the EU and its members include ministers from each of the UK devolved administrations.
JMC(EN) has met on a monthly basis since its inception, and will continue to meet regularly to understand and consider each administration’s priorities; to seek to agree a UK approach to, and objectives for, negotiations, and to consider proposals put forward by the devolved administrations.
At the first meeting, held in November, ministers set out their priorities for discussion at JMC(EN) and agreed to develop further the proposed work programme to ensure its connection to and involvement with the process of negotiations. Ministers agreed to meet monthly to share evidence and to take forward joint analysis, which would inform that work programme.
At the second meeting, held in December, ministers discussed their priorities relating to law enforcement, security and criminal justice, civil judicial cooperation, immigration and trade. There was a follow up discussion from the last meeting of JMC(EN) on market access. Ministers agreed that officials should take forward joint analysis across the range of issues being considered by JMC(EN) and captured in the work programme. Ministers agreed to continue to engage bilaterally ahead of the next meeting in January.
At the third meeting in January, the Scottish Government presented its paper on Scotland’s Place in Europe and the Committee agreed to undertake bilateral official-level discussions on the Scottish Government proposals.
UK government departments also continue their significant bilateral engagement on the key issues relating to the UK’s withdrawal from the EU and on ongoing business.

3.3 The current devolution settlements were created in the context of the UK’s membership of the EU. All three settlements set out that devolved legislatures only have legislative competence – the ability to make law – in devolved policy areas as long as that law is compatible with EU law.
3.4 This has meant that, even in areas where the devolved legislatures and administrations currently have some competence, such as agriculture, environment and some transport issues, most rules are set through common EU legal and regulatory frameworks, devised and agreed in Brussels. When the UK leaves the EU, these rules will be set here in the UK by democratically elected representatives.
3.5 As the powers to make these rules are repatriated to the UK from the EU, we have
an opportunity to determine the level best placed to make new laws and policies on these issues, ensuring power sits closer to the people of the UK than ever before. We have already committed that no decisions currently taken by the devolved administrations will be removed from them and we will use the opportunity of bringing decision making back to the UK to ensure that more decisions are devolved.

The recent history of devolution
The UK’s constitutional arrangements have evolved over time and been adapted to reflect the unique circumstances of the world’s most successful and enduring multi-nation state. These arrangements provide all of the UK with the space to pursue different domestic policies should they wish to, whilst protecting and preserving the benefits of being part of the wider UK.
The current arrangements for governing the UK have been in place for almost 20 years. In September 1997, referendums were held in Scotland and Wales and a majority of voters chose to establish a Scottish Parliament and a National Assembly for Wales.
In Northern Ireland, devolution was a key part of the Belfast Agreement, which was supported by voters in a referendum in May 1998. The UK Parliament passed legislation
in 1998 to establish the three devolved legislatures and administrations and set out their powers. Throughout the last two decades, the settlements have continued to evolve; for example, new tax raising powers were devolved to the Scottish Parliament under the Scotland Act 2016 and the model of Welsh devolution was altered by the Wales Act 2017.
The UK Government acts in the interests of the whole UK and is responsible for the UK's international relations, including negotiations with the EU. It transacts those responsibilities in close consultation with the devolved administrations, underpinned by the principles set out in the Memorandum of Understanding agreed by all the administrations.

3.6 We must also recognise the importance of trade within the UK to all parts of the Union. For example, Scotland’s exports to the rest of the UK are estimated to be four times greater than those to the EU27 (in 2015, £49.8 billion compared with £12.3 billion).6 So our guiding principle will be to ensure that – as we leave the EU – no new barriers to living and doing business within our own Union are created. We will maintain the necessary common standards and frameworks for our own domestic market, empowering the UK as an open, trading nation to strike the best trade deals around the world and protecting our common resources.
3.7 On the basis of these principles, we will work with the devolved administrations on an approach to returning powers from the EU that works for the whole of the UK and reflects the interests of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
3.8 We will also continue to champion devolution to local government and are committed to devolving greater powers to local government where there is economic rationale to do so.7

Devolved administrations’ proposals
In addition to the broad programme of engagement through JMC(EN), the UK Government has committed to examine any proposals brought forward by the devolved administrations. To date papers have been published by the Scottish and Welsh Governments.
In December, the Scottish Government published Scotland’s Place in Europe,7 which was presented to JMC(EN) in January.
The paper set out three priorities:
1. influencing the overall UK position so that the UK remains in the European Single Market, through the European Economic Area (EEA) Agreement and also in the EU Customs Union;
2. exploring differentiated options for how Scotland could remain a member of the European Single Market and retain aspects of EU membership, even if the rest of the UK leaves; and
3. safeguarding and significantly expanding the powers of the Scottish Parliament.
The UK and Scottish Governments are taking forward further discussions on the proposals detailed in the paper.
In January, the Welsh Government published Securing Wales’ Future,8 which set out a joint position with Plaid Cymru. The paper, which will be discussed at a future JMC(EN) meeting, set out the Welsh Government’s views on six areas:
1. the importance of continued participation in the Single Market;
2. a balanced approach to immigration linking migration to jobs and good, properly enforced employment practices;
3. on finance and investment, Wales should not lose funding as a result of the UK leaving the EU;
4. a fundamentally different constitutional relationship between the devolved governments and the UK Government;
5. maintaining social and environmental protections; and
6. proper consideration of transitional arrangements.
The Northern Ireland Executive has not published a White Paper on EU exit. However, the former First and deputy First Ministers wrote to the Prime Minister setting out the key priorities for Northern Ireland last August. Ministers from the Northern Ireland Executive have participated in JMC(EN) discussions and presented evidence on the impact of EU exit in Northern Ireland and the priorities for Northern Ireland from the new relationship with the EU.
Bilateral discussions will now be taken forward between each of the devolved administrations and the UK Government to fully understand their priorities, which will inform the continuing discussions.
There are many areas where the devolved administrations and the UK Government agree, including on the importance of providing certainty for businesses across the UK, maintaining strong trading links with the EU, protecting the status of EU nationals in the UK and UK nationals in the EU and protecting workers’ rights.

3.9 As the UK leaves the EU, the unique relationships that the Crown Dependencies of the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands and the Overseas Territories have with the EU will also change. Gibraltar will have particular interests, given that the EU Treaties apply to a large extent in Gibraltar, with some exceptions (for example, Gibraltar is not part of the Customs Union).8
3.10 We have ensured that their priorities are understood through a range of engagement including new fora dedicated to discussing the impact of EU exit: the Joint Ministerial Council on EU Negotiations, with representatives of the governments of the Overseas Territories, a new Joint Ministerial Council (Gibraltar EU Negotiations) with the Government of Gibraltar, and formal quarterly meetings with the Chief Ministers of the Crown Dependencies. We will continue to involve them fully in our work, respect their interests and engage with them as we enter negotiations, and strengthen the bonds between us as we forge a new relationship with the EU and look outward into the world.

[yahyah]

Thanks Paul.

[HindleA]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... r-happened" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Kellyanne Conway blames refugees for 'Bowling Green massacre' that never happened

[HindleA]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38853841" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Shooting incident at Louvre in Paris

[PaulfromYorkshire]

There is nothing in this plan that addresses the contradictions between the UK's position and the positions of the devolved administrations is there? In particular on the Single Market.

The only thing they seem to have actually agreed to do is to "intensify their work".

Seriously, there is nothing to debate here is there?

[HindleA]

http://www.europarl.org.uk/en/media/eur ... nanas.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Bendy Bananas - the Myth to end all Myths

[adam]

3.1 We have ensured since the referendum that the devolved administrations are fully engaged in our preparations to leave the EU and we are working with the administrations in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to deliver an outcome that works for the whole of the UK. In seeking such a deal we will look to secure the specific interests of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, as well as those of all parts of England. A good deal will be one that works for all parts of the UK.

This would be wholly and entirely disputed by the devolved governments of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to the extent that this is a good example of the white paper as assertion of the reality they'd like to exist rather than the one that actually does. You're entitled to your own opinions but you're not entitled to your own facts.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

3.1 We have ensured since the referendum that the devolved administrations are fully engaged in our preparations to leave the EU and we are working with the administrations in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to deliver an outcome that works for the whole of the UK. In seeking such a deal we will look to secure the specific interests of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, as well as those of all parts of England. A good deal will be one that works for all parts of the UK.

This would be wholly and entirely disputed by the devolved governments of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to the extent that this is a good example of the white paper as assertion of the reality they'd like to exist rather than the one that actually does. You're entitled to your own opinions but you're not entitled to your own facts.

Yes well put Adam!

And of course it's blindingly obvious that the "good deal that works for all parts of the UK" is to remain in the EU

[HindleA]

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... hout-cover" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Doctors shortage left 4 million patients without cover last year

[HindleA]

https://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2017 ... -tell.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Stories MPs tell

Mainlymacro


"So much of the Brexit process has been about perceptions of reality rather than reality itself. Perceptions that immigration reduces access to public services, when the opposite is true. Perceptions that leaving the EU would give us more money to spend on the NHS, rather than less as we are now finding out. And perceptions that Turkey was about to join the EU. But above all else, if you believe the Ashcroft findings, a feeling of a loss in sovereignty. Here feeling is not my word, but from the White paper the government released yesterday. To quote (para 2,1):
"Whilst Parliament has remained sovereign throughout our membership of the EU, it has not always felt like that."

Now where would all those misperceptions have come from? "

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Continuing from above. What does Parliament do with a *hite Paper like this?

Normally there would be proposals that the Opposition might disagree with. They would then propose an amendment, provide evidence and argument to back it up and there would be a vote.

But can the Opposition actually say, this clause is a lie it should be deleted?

[adam]

And of course it's blindingly obvious that the "good deal that works for all parts of the UK" is to remain in the EU

I'm also not sure they should be discussing anything about arrangements for Gibraltar without acknowledging how overwhelming support for remaining within the EU was in Gibraltar.

[adam]

https://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2017 ... -tell.html


Stories MPs tell

Mainlymacro


"So much of the Brexit process has been about perceptions of reality rather than reality itself. Perceptions that immigration reduces access to public services, when the opposite is true. Perceptions that leaving the EU would give us more money to spend on the NHS, rather than less as we are now finding out. And perceptions that Turkey was about to join the EU. But above all else, if you believe the Ashcroft findings, a feeling of a loss in sovereignty. Here feeling is not my word, but from the White paper the government released yesterday. To quote (para 2,1):
"Whilst Parliament has remained sovereign throughout our membership of the EU, it has not always felt like that."

Now where would all those misperceptions have come from? "

Before the Scottish referendum there was a year+ long process of bi-partisan and non-partisan (insofar as such a thing is possible) reporting into different aspects of the process - into what the issues were and what they might mean, into exactly what was intended to happen across a range of different issues.

We'd managed to do that so recently and yet we managed to do nothing at all in the EU referendum other than allow each side to shout whatever they wanted and allow voters to choose their own facts. That, I am sure, is what freedom now means.

[HindleA]

http://www.lifehacker.co.uk/2014/08/23/ ... t-anything" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[NonOxCol]

I hope someone's keeping a list of reasons to Brexit.

1. I went to the supermarket and the bananas were straight.
2. The EU were nasty to Greece, vote Leave to punish them and give Merkel a headache.
3. Immigration. Too many foreigners. Not the right kind of foreigners. I'm not racist but I don't like foreigners. Illegal immigrants stole my bendy banana.
4. EU 'elf & safety's gorn mad mate.
5. He's a larf that Boris.
6. I'm not voting Brexit, I'm voting for Lexit. Haven't got the foggiest idea how that will work with the Tories in charge, but hey, I'm a dreamer.
7. Brexit will start the collapse of the EU.
8. Lexit will start the collapse of the EU, and in the chaos that ensues we'll build a socialist utopia.
It'll be a gas, man. What we've dreamt of since the 60's. Right on and to the barricades.
9. If you vote Remain you are with Osborne & Cameron so vote Leave to stick it to them.
10. That nice Mr Farage said we'd get £350 million a week more for the NHS.
11. Vote Brexit to shake up the elites.

You can add several more to the list, from this letter alone. I hope you can enlarge it sufficiently to read.

As the account's pinned tweet states, this is not from Viz. It is a REAL LETTER to the Daily Mail.

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People like this are May's "victors".

[tinyclanger2]

3.1 We have ensured since the referendum that the devolved administrations are fully engaged in our preparations to leave the EU and we are working with the administrations in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to deliver an outcome that works for the whole of the UK. In seeking such a deal we will look to secure the specific interests of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, as well as those of all parts of England. A good deal will be one that works for all parts of the UK.

This would be wholly and entirely disputed by the devolved governments of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to the extent that this is a good example of the white paper as assertion of the reality they'd like to exist rather than the one that actually does. You're entitled to your own opinions but you're not entitled to your own facts.

Precisely!

[NonOxCol]

Meanwhile, Holocaust deniers use new film "Denial" to try and recruit university students:

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British ones, by the way.

[HindleA]

http://notthetreasuryview.blogspot.co.u ... about.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


A(nother) debate on immigration: how about starting with the facts?


J.Portes

[NonOxCol]

Definitely not going backwards, US society, is it?

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[PaulfromYorkshire]

Great to see that salty old seadog OpenSeas pop in to the chamber last night. I haven’t heard from him since the glory days of the AS blog during the run up to the 2015 election. He was of course instrumental in defeating the tribal Labour consensus which prevailed amongst the faithful at the time.

Good to see you’re still doing well OS. If you’re not there already, get yourself on Twitter; it’s a laugh riot. For those of you already on Twitter, I highly recommend the #PrayforDiane hashtag. It hilariously chronicles some of the scepticism surrounding the sudden ‘illness’ which befell Diane Abbott, in the moments leading up to the politically-inconvenient Article 50 vote.

Happy Friday all! The sun is shining here in London! Let’s all have a good one.
Rusty

The brilliant thing about Open Seas was I could never tell whether it was amazing parody or awful reality.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

@HindleA

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/mi ... g-12550065" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

12 lettuce for £50

[StephenDolan]

I see the 7k leave Labour figure ignores a couple of things.

Firstly, 3k joined in the same time frame.
Secondly, churn wasn't factored in. So as useful as the DWP look how many our stricter rules got off benefits and in to work claims.

[StephenDolan]

Great to see that salty old seadog OpenSeas pop in to the chamber last night. I haven’t heard from him since the glory days of the AS blog during the run up to the 2015 election. He was of course instrumental in defeating the tribal Labour consensus which prevailed amongst the faithful at the time.

Good to see you’re still doing well OS. If you’re not there already, get yourself on Twitter; it’s a laugh riot. For those of you already on Twitter, I highly recommend the #PrayforDiane hashtag. It hilariously chronicles some of the scepticism surrounding the sudden ‘illness’ which befell Diane Abbott, in the moments leading up to the politically-inconvenient Article 50 vote.

Happy Friday all! The sun is shining here in London! Let’s all have a good one.
Rusty

The brilliant thing about Open Seas was I could never tell whether it was amazing parody or awful reality.

Indeed. A bored Viz writer?

[StephenDolan]

@HindleA

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/mi ... g-12550065" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

12 lettuce for £50

On the positive side, vegetables and salad goods becoming increasingly expensive make them desirable luxury food items.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Great to see that salty old seadog OpenSeas pop in to the chamber last night. I haven’t heard from him since the glory days of the AS blog during the run up to the 2015 election. He was of course instrumental in defeating the tribal Labour consensus which prevailed amongst the faithful at the time.

Good to see you’re still doing well OS. If you’re not there already, get yourself on Twitter; it’s a laugh riot. For those of you already on Twitter, I highly recommend the #PrayforDiane hashtag. It hilariously chronicles some of the scepticism surrounding the sudden ‘illness’ which befell Diane Abbott, in the moments leading up to the politically-inconvenient Article 50 vote.

Happy Friday all! The sun is shining here in London! Let’s all have a good one.
Rusty

The brilliant thing about Open Seas was I could never tell whether it was amazing parody or awful reality.

Awful person, but sometimes a better *poster* than our other "friend" Rusty - was prepared on a good day to actually have a discussion rather than just troll.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Meanwhile you can get some lovely, healthy, locally grown curly kale for less than a quid.

Why not stir fry some in a wok with olive oil, garlic and a bit of chilli?

[gilsey]

Continuing from above. What does Parliament do with a *hite Paper like this?

Get together and put the brakes on. Cobble together a majority for the Norway option and sod the 'will of the people', which might have been for that anyway if the campaigns had been conducted more honestly.

Use NI as an excuse.

I'm dreaming.

[AngryAsWell]

JPMorgan on Brexit white paper: 'Shallowness of the analysis and absence of detail are matters of great concern'

http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-wh ... ail-2017-2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[StephenDolan]

JPMorgan on Brexit white paper: 'Shallowness of the analysis and absence of detail are matters of great concern'

http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-wh ... ail-2017-2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

WillOfThePeople!

[tinyclanger2]

yes.
I expect "thewillofthepeople" will be THE new dictionary entry for the OED for 2017.

Now: definitions?

[PorFavor]

JPMorgan on Brexit white paper: 'Shallowness of the analysis and absence of detail are matters of great concern'

http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-wh ... ail-2017-2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

WillOfThePeople!

Will-O-the-Wisp - and all that that entails.

[NonOxCol]

Difficult not to be furious at the "she's just as bad" crew...

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[HindleA]

@Paul

My salad days are over.

[adam]

JPMorgan on Brexit white paper: 'Shallowness of the analysis and absence of detail are matters of great concern'

http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-wh ... ail-2017-2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

WillOfThePeople!

Will-O-the-Wisp - and all that that entails.

will o the wisp.jpg (26.97 KiB) Viewed 11506 times

[HindleA]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... er-britain" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Heavy rain and 70mph winds to batter Britain
Met Office issues yellow warnings for wind and rain across parts of the country – but it’s not Storm Doris

[AnatolyKasparov]

Difficult not to be furious at the "she's just as bad" crew...

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Though that was always a far smaller group than some now like to imply.