Saturday 4th & Sunday 5th February 2017

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 1:05 pm

Temulkar - you're such a charmer.
Since you clearly believe we are all ignorant beyond measure - why do you bother repeatedly telling us this is your view.

It's quite tedious. And very rude.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 1:07 pm

Temulkar wrote:It's almost as if some have an agenda.

Isn't it.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 1:08 pm

Temulkar wrote:even the express

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/739415 ... rexit-news" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Despite the headline, the article only quotes Corbyn talking about "access" to the single market, which tells us very little about whether that "access" is to be achieved by membership of the EEA or via a trade deal from outside the single market.

It's a good example of how Corbyn's vagueness can be interpreted as both for and against hard Brexit. Unless Corbyn unequivocally states he wishes to remain in the EEA in the way Starmer has unequivocally stated Labour's desire to stay in the customs union, I can't know he wants the same as me. I can't dismiss the fact he has spent a lifetime of wanting to leave the single market unless he states unequivocally that he has changed his mind. I also feel very strongly that a consensus for a Norway type option can't be achieved unless the arguments for it are made, and soon, before the Tory narrative of only a hard Brexit will fulfil the referendum mandate becomes too strongly established.

These are my own personal opinions and they are only what one voter, me, thinks. Paul and AK argue that Corbyn's approach will win more support overall. They may be right, but it isn't winning my support, that's all.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 1:09 pm

HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... CMP=twt_gu

Ministers move to ‘shift blame for funding cuts to local councils’

I'm so angry about this
it's the equivalent of an innocent person punished for a crime committed by another

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 1:10 pm

Good-afternoon, everyone.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 1:13 pm

Thank f**k for the paywall:

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/are-y ... -5cj3628rx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 1:19 pm

Temulkar wrote:It's almost as if some have an agenda.

Worred fucking sick about my and my family's future.

That's my only "agenda".

I have noticed the Greens and the Libdems being very clear about staying in the single market as the preferred option, but not Labour. I'm told Corbyn and Labour are misrepresented and am given vague sound bites that could be interpreted in a number of ways and am being asked to take on trust that this means a lifetime sceptic of the single market has changed his mind despite his never actually saying this. I can't, I'm afraid. Talk about the advantages of not having to abide by state aid rules and how Labour isn't tied to the principle of freedom of movement of people doesn't give me much confidence.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 1:21 pm

HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ing-crisis

Government plan to open up green belt has to be just the start
Rowan Moore

"those who sit smugly "

What is it with needless language?

'Othering'
Also, people genuinely don't know who's really to blame for macroeconomic policies regular people live through, use, because we must, but didn't create. It's real important to educate everyone.

From the doorstep, I've heard what people think is true. They're mistaken, they've been misinformed, deliberately told lies. cJA on the doorstep with a US Southern accent gon set them straight. Pfft. Good luck with that, missy.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 1:33 pm

Willow904 wrote:
Temulkar wrote:It's almost as if some have an agenda.
Worred fucking sick about my and my family's future.

That's my only "agenda".

I have noticed the Greens and the Libdems being very clear about staying in the single market as the preferred option, but not Labour. I'm told Corbyn and Labour are misrepresented and am given vague sound bites that could be interpreted in a number of ways and am being asked to take on trust that this means a lifetime sceptic of the single market has changed his mind despite his never actually saying this. I can't, I'm afraid. Talk about the advantages of not having to abide by state aid rules and how Labour isn't tied to the principle of freedom of movement of people doesn't give me much confidence.

I hear you. I'm with you. I feel the same fear. Our fear isn't irrational, it's based upon events unfolding as they are, not as how we'd wish them to be. Labour's confused position is selling out people and ending freedom of movement and that won't do at all. I won't. I will not support short-term, bad policy. I'm still working it out.

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 1:41 pm

NonOxCol wrote:Thank f**k for the paywall:

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/are-y ... -5cj3628rx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes, by the law of unintended consequences, Uncle Rupe installed an anti crap-o-meter.

Before it disappears into the paywall I just notice it's by Rod Liddle and he's making out he's just a pleb railing against BBC elitists - that's Rod Liddle who just happens to be a highly paid journalist writing for a paper owned by a billionaire.

Murdoch could save himself a wad by getting some random noob on Twitter to write twattery like that.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 1:44 pm

citizenJA wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
Temulkar wrote:It's almost as if some have an agenda.
Worred fucking sick about my and my family's future.

That's my only "agenda".

I have noticed the Greens and the Libdems being very clear about staying in the single market as the preferred option, but not Labour. I'm told Corbyn and Labour are misrepresented and am given vague sound bites that could be interpreted in a number of ways and am being asked to take on trust that this means a lifetime sceptic of the single market has changed his mind despite his never actually saying this. I can't, I'm afraid. Talk about the advantages of not having to abide by state aid rules and how Labour isn't tied to the principle of freedom of movement of people doesn't give me much confidence.
I hear you. I'm with you. I feel the same fear. Our fear isn't irrational, it's based upon events unfolding as they are, not as how we'd wish them to be. Labour's confused position is selling out people and ending freedom of movement and that won't do at all. I won't. I will not support short-term, bad policy. I'm still working it out.

Absolutely. The worst thing is there are people like Yvette Cooper going down the curbing immigration route, leaving only a small group of Labour MPs apparently actually full on behind staying in the single market.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 1:47 pm

Whine alert (from someone who understands that Brexit will be a disaster for many things including climate change):

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 63511.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Emily Thornberry indicates Labour will not block Brexit Bill even if amendments fail

What opposition?
Labour waved through this referendum in the first place and are now waving through our subsequent demise.
Feel free to correct me where I'm wrong.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 1:48 pm

PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

Good moraftevening.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 1:49 pm

@Por Favor.

Much better thanks. Have been able to walk today.

Spring has sprung while we've been 'whining' about Article 50.
Catkins, hellebores, banks of snowdrops, daffodils in bud.
Even some lambs about. One peered down at us from the top of a grassy 12th century motte and bleated hello.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 1:49 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:Temulkar - you're such a charmer.
Since you clearly believe we are all ignorant beyond measure - why do you bother repeatedly telling us this is your view.

It's quite tedious. And very rude.

Just to counter the incessant drone of the anti corbyn cult whine. I mean, we all know thats the opinion so why do you bother every day with it, its quite tedious really, and very rude...

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 1:53 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:Whine alert (from someone who understands that Brexit will be a disaster for many things including climate change):

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 63511.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Emily Thornberry indicates Labour will not block Brexit Bill even if amendments fail
What opposition?
Labour waved through this referendum in the first place and are now waving through our subsequent demise.
Feel free to correct me where I'm wrong.

Irrefutable current events indicate Labour is doing it wrong on this here

grammatical errors, apologies

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 2:01 pm

Well, if us whiners (with agendas or without) are wrong, and it turns out that Corbyn is a master tactician, I'm sure we'll be more than happy to eat humble pie. I'll bake a vegetarian version.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 2:11 pm

HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... s-well-win

US appeals court rejects White House request to reinstate travel ban

yeah yeah
Nothing will cook Trump's goose quicker than muscling in on domains splendid US fire roosters hold office through trust distributing justice

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 2:11 pm

Temulkar wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:Temulkar - you're such a charmer.
Since you clearly believe we are all ignorant beyond measure - why do you bother repeatedly telling us this is your view.

It's quite tedious. And very rude.
Just to counter the incessant drone of the anti corbyn cult whine. I mean, we all know thats the opinion so why do you bother every day with it, its quite tedious really, and very rude...

But I am not rude. You are.
It is possible to communicate differences in opinion without resorting to insults. Most of us do it on FTN with impressive regularity.
I am entitled to my view - just as you are. I don't expect you to change yours or insult you for not doing so. Yet you treat us to this kind of puzzling communication. I have no problem with what you say, but I find myself quite resistant to the way you say it.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 2:13 pm

nickyinnorfolk wrote:
NonOxCol wrote:Thank f**k for the paywall:

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/are-y ... -5cj3628rx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Yes, by the law of unintended consequences, Uncle Rupe installed an anti crap-o-meter.

Before it disappears into the paywall I just notice it's by Rod Liddle and he's making out he's just a pleb railing against BBC elitists - that's Rod Liddle who just happens to be a highly paid journalist writing for a paper owned by a billionaire.

Murdoch could save himself a wad by getting some random noob on Twitter to write twattery like that.

One can only agree with this...

Sam Freedman ‏@Samfr 1h1 hour ago

I'm liberal elite enough to want to watch him endlessly chased around a enclosed space by a crowd of enraged geese.

People would pay good money to watch this.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 2:19 pm

NonOxCol wrote:Thank f**k for the paywall:

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/are-y ... -5cj3628rx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes - but I got the gist before, mercifully, it disappeared.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 2:24 pm

We might need Por Favor to adjudicate on 'anti corbyn cult whine' to clarify its meaning

Meanwhile, to save us having to drone on incessantly, here's some help from the experts.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?[/youtube]

oops, that link didn't work.....bagpipes - use your imaginations and drone along with it.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 2:28 pm

Temulkar wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:Temulkar - you're such a charmer.
Since you clearly believe we are all ignorant beyond measure - why do you bother repeatedly telling us this is your view.

It's quite tedious. And very rude.
Just to counter the incessant drone of the anti corbyn cult whine. I mean, we all know thats the opinion so why do you bother every day with it, its quite tedious really, and very rude...

"The anti corbyn cult whine" is usually, if not always, comment on a news item or interview. It's not gratuitous or without context.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 2:33 pm

But does it mean a cult made up of whining Corbyn zealots, or anti-Corbyn whining by people who are less than enamoured by his performance ?

edited - confused myself

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 2:36 pm

Having never previously been asked to carry such immeasurable weight, the word "disingenuous" falls screaming into a black hole...

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 2:46 pm

Apologies for the link (Express) and the imagery, but this (non-Brexit casual reading) involuntarily brought our PM and our strangely coiffeured leader of the free world to mind:

It was not a friendly gesture. The earliest known depiction of Britannia as a goddess is a Roman carving that shows a captive woman being manhandled by a naked emperor Claudius.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/history/5 ... uise-liner" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 2:52 pm

Willow904 wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:Clickety clickbait.

Trump is no fascist. He is a champion for the forgotten millions

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... n-millions" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Oh ffs.

I can't even read that article, if the premise revolves around the idea that Trump represents a movement against "elites". Trump is an elite. He is a disgustingly wealthy individual who imposes his hotels and golf courses on resistant communities by using his money and influence to bend and ignore local laws. He is a shining example of how there is one rule for the wealthy and another for everyone else.

I would politely suggest that the country which elected George Bush Jr has little problem with an elite sense of entitlement. However, the country that has seen numerous attacks on abortion clinics and wants to remove contraception from health insurance, does seem to have a real problem with its attitudes towards women.

You're right of course, all of those things you've identified are real. The inequality, poverty and attacks on vulnerable people are rife in the US.

It wasn't Trump's effort alone putting him in his position, nor was it down to US voters putting him there but I don't mean fraud, though that allegation may be true. Multi-national power-brokers put him where he sits as well as the Republican party.

It's a disadvantage never having experienced trials somewhere in individual history and Trump's biography doesn't contain any. I think this missing experience is particularly ruinous for a US President. It's a big ship one US President steers. Trump creates his opposition, as powerful as whatever he's got.

Post by **refitman** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 2:54 pm

yahyah wrote:We might need Por Favor to adjudicate on 'anti corbyn cult whine' to clarify its meaning

Meanwhile, to save us having to drone on incessantly, here's some help from the experts.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?[/youtube]

oops, that link didn't work.....bagpipes - use your imaginations and drone along with it.

You managed to delete the bit you wanted and leave the bit that should have been deleted.

Code: Select all

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJxCdh1Ps48
[youtube]yJxCdh1Ps48[/youtube]

[youtube]yJxCdh1Ps48[/youtube]

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 2:58 pm

Thanks Refitman, but it was a bagpipe video I tried to post - but trombones drone a bit too !

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 3:01 pm

Willow904 wrote:Actually, the more I read the "Trump's no fascist" article, the more it seems to be describing a classic shift to the right in response to a financial crisis.

It certainly isn't a direct line to Trump though. If people were unhappy about bank bailouts, Trump's financial de-regulation won't be popular, but I doubt the bulk of his supporters will be too concerned. Because they were mostly traditional Republican voters.

Although it's interesting to look into how Trump won crucial votes in mid-American swing states, surely these votes make up a minority of his support. Isn't Trump mostly representative of just how right-wing and elitist America is in it's very core, with a "winner takes all" attitude that's as evident in this last election as it has ever been?

Not to mention if Hilary is the living embodiment of "elite" and America has rejected "elites", how come she won the "popular" vote by a country mile?

Just as the Tories flooded marginals with national money in 2015 (any movement on those electoral fraud cases, btw?) Trump targeted big money at key mid-American swing states that punch above their weight in terms of population per electoral college vote. He played the system, just as the Tories play the system, just as all "elites" do because that's how they stay "elites".

Correct. Trump is dangerous, bullying, offensive and creating a perilous course for himself.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 3:04 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:Whine alert (from someone who understands that Brexit will be a disaster for many things including climate change):

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 63511.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Emily Thornberry indicates Labour will not block Brexit Bill even if amendments fail
What opposition?
Labour waved through this referendum in the first place and are now waving through our subsequent demise.
Feel free to correct me where I'm wrong.

What is this "block Brexit" nonsense?? Even if they wanted to, they haven't got the votes to "block Brexit".

(having a go at the Indy, rather than you)

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 3:07 pm

They can't block it - but they can protest. Not to do so is to convince 'thepeople' that Labour also believe Brexit is the right and only thing to do.
Whereas, clearly, it is not.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 3:08 pm

Iraq still haunts us/Labour; Brexit will be the same.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 3:10 pm

Temulkar wrote:
Willow904 wrote:Corbyn has had opportunities in live interviews to express a position that he wouldn't vote for article 50 if certain amendments weren't passed, most significantly in an interview two days after May gave her hard Brexit speech, but he didn't.

I hope Labour will fight the next election supporting remaining in or rejoining the single market, but there is little indication of that currently under Corbyn. It would help if he indicated he believed we are better off in the single market than going it alone making trade deals with powerful countries and blocs as a small isolated country, but he hasn't. He has never said he thinks we are better off as members of the single market, that I have seen.
You are simply not bothering to listen to them, or even trying to, you have your preconceived ideas and you ignore dismiss or deny the evidence to the contrary.

http://labourlist.org/2016/12/corbyn-an ... le-market/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://labourlist.org/2016/11/britain-a ... onference/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(cJA edit)

Levelling a charge of negligent and/or selective attention against the commentator is wrong.
Willow904's consistent, timely and well-informed content posted here is the evidence making your criticism spurious.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 3:11 pm

PS: don't even mind if you do have a go at me AK! I know I'm going on gut rather than knowledge. my concern is that most people are more like me (somewhat ignorant).

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 3:13 pm

Tem makes some good points, as does SH on the other side of the FTN "divide".

In both cases, the manner of delivery sometimes leaves a bit to be desired though.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 3:13 pm

I am reading (in advance of them being written) the headlines about how Labour voted for Brexit; it is the future presentation of the current reality, and what the charlatans will do with it that I fear.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 3:15 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Tem makes some good points, as does SH on the other side of the FTN "divide".

In both cases, the manner of delivery sometimes leaves a bit to be desired though.

Indeed. My point is not that I don't want T to post; but that he might moderate the manner in which he does it (and perhaps make it a bit less about how crap we are - just for a change).

SH is a mystery. Like a cat.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 3:18 pm

yahyah wrote:@Por Favor.

Much better thanks. Have been able to walk today.

Spring has sprung while we've been 'whining' about Article 50.
Catkins, hellebores, banks of snowdrops, daffodils in bud.
Even some lambs about. One peered down at us from the top of a grassy 12th century motte and bleated hello.

Good!

You've reminded of walks taken in Wales, you've brought it all back, best time of year, now, for me at least.
I'd love to see it again. Soon, I hope.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 3:20 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:They can't block it - but they can protest. Not to do so is to convince 'thepeople' that Labour also believe Brexit is the right and only thing to do.
Whereas, clearly, it is not.

Agreed, with all my heart

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 3:22 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:I am reading (in advance of them being written) the headlines about how Labour voted for Brexit; it is the future presentation of the current reality, and what the charlatans will do with it that I fear.

Yes. If we accept that Labour will inevitably lose the next General Election, there's no reason to accept that they must lose the one after that - when, I believe, the tide will have turned. Start making the case now. And we don't want to be accused of "jumping on any bandwagons", do we? (Rest assured the Conservatives will - probably in the shape of an opportunist Boris Johnson.)

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 3:28 pm

Willow904 wrote:
Temulkar wrote:even the express

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/739415 ... rexit-news" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Despite the headline, the article only quotes Corbyn talking about "access" to the single market, which tells us very little about whether that "access" is to be achieved by membership of the EEA or via a trade deal from outside the single market.

It's a good example of how Corbyn's vagueness can be interpreted as both for and against hard Brexit. Unless Corbyn unequivocally states he wishes to remain in the EEA in the way Starmer has unequivocally stated Labour's desire to stay in the customs union, I can't know he wants the same as me. I can't dismiss the fact he has spent a lifetime of wanting to leave the single market unless he states unequivocally that he has changed his mind. I also feel very strongly that a consensus for a Norway type option can't be achieved unless the arguments for it are made, and soon, before the Tory narrative of only a hard Brexit will fulfil the referendum mandate becomes too strongly established.

These are my own personal opinions and they are only what one voter, me, thinks. Paul and AK argue that Corbyn's approach will win more support overall. They may be right, but it isn't winning my support, that's all.

Willow thanks for this The last line is exactly what I value in FTN.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 3:38 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... te-funding" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Rolls-Royce faces civil service inquiry over UK state funding

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 3:40 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... se-say-mps" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Britain’s rail franchise model unfit for purpose, say MPs

http://www.parliament.uk/business/commi ... hed-16-17/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 3:43 pm

HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... te-funding

Rolls-Royce faces civil service inquiry over UK state funding

But they have apologised for their past (past) misdeeds . . .

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 3:53 pm

5. Controlling immigration
We will remain an open and tolerant country, and one that recognises the valuable contribution migrants make to our society and welcomes those with the skills and expertise to make our nation better still. But in future we must ensure we can control the number of people coming to the UK from the EU.
5.1 As we leave the EU and embrace the world, openness to international talent will remain one of our most distinctive assets.
5.2 We welcome the contribution that migrants have brought and will continue to bring to our economy and society. That is why we will always want immigration, including from EU countries, and especially high-skilled immigration and why we will always welcome individual migrants arriving lawfully in the UK as friends.
5.3 However, in the last decade or so, we have seen record levels of long term net migration in the UK,13 and that sheer volume has given rise to public concern about pressure on public services, like schools and our infrastructure, especially housing, as well as placing downward pressure on wages for people on the lowest incomes. The public must have confidence in our ability to control immigration. It is simply not possible to control immigration overall when there is unlimited free movement of people to the UK from the EU.
5.4 We will design our immigration system to ensure that we are able to control the numbers of people who come here from the EU. In future, therefore, the Free Movement Directive will no longer apply and the migration of EU nationals will be subject to UK law.
5.5 Immigration can bring great benefits – filling skills shortages, delivering public services and making the UK’s businesses the world-beaters they often are. But it must be controlled.
5.6 We will create an immigration system that allows us to control numbers and encourage the brightest and the best to come to this country, as part of a stable and prosperous future with the EU and our European partners.
5.7 The UK will always welcome genuine students and those with the skills and expertise to make our nation better still. We have already confirmed that existing EU students and those starting courses in 2016-17 and 2017-18 will continue to be eligible for student loans and home fee status for the duration of their course. We have also confirmed that research councils will continue to fund postgraduate students from the EU whose courses start in 2017-18.
5.8 The Government also recognises the important contribution made by students and academics from EU Member States to the UK’s world class universities. A global UK must also be a country that looks to the future.
5.9 We are considering very carefully the options that are open to us to gain control of the numbers of people coming to the UK from the EU. As part of that, it is important that we understand the impacts on the different sectors of the economy and the labour market. We will, therefore, ensure that businesses and communities have the opportunity to contribute their views. Equally, we will need to understand the potential impacts of any proposed changes in all the parts of the UK. So we will build a comprehensive picture of the needs and interests of all parts of the UK and look to develop a system that works for all.
5.10 Implementing any new immigration arrangements for EU nationals and the support they receive will be complex and Parliament will have an important role in considering these matters further. There may be a phased process of implementation to prepare for the new arrangements. This would give businesses and individuals enough time to plan and prepare for those new arrangements.

Free movement of people
The main EU Treaty provisions relevant to the free movement of people (and associated provisions on social security and welfare provision in cross-border situations) are:
• Article 18 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU) on non-discrimination;
• Articles 20 and 21 TFEU which deal with EU citizenship and free movement rights;
• Articles 45-48 TFEU on the free movement of workers and social security coordination; and
• Articles 49-53 TFEU as they relate to the freedom of establishment of self- employed persons.
Free movement rights can be exercised by EU citizens, their dependants and – in certain circumstances – other family members. These rights are largely set out in the EU Treaties and in secondary EU legislation. These rights have also been extended to nationals of the European Economic Area (EEA) states who are not members of the EU (Iceland, Norway and Liechtenstein) and to Switzerland by virtue of two separate agreements. EU citizens also have the right to exercise free movement rights in these states.
EU secondary legislation provides further detail on the rights contained in the EU Treaties. There are key pieces of secondary EU legislation that are most relevant. The Free Movement Directive15 sets out the rights of EU citizens and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the EU. This Directive replaced most of the previous European legislation facilitating the migration of the economically active and it consolidated the rights of EU citizens and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the EU. The Directive is implemented in the UK via the Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2016, which also apply to Swiss nationals and nationals of those EEA States which are not EU Member States.
15

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 3:57 pm

citizenJA wrote:
Temulkar wrote:
Willow904 wrote:Corbyn has had opportunities in live interviews to express a position that he wouldn't vote for article 50 if certain amendments weren't passed, most significantly in an interview two days after May gave her hard Brexit speech, but he didn't.

I hope Labour will fight the next election supporting remaining in or rejoining the single market, but there is little indication of that currently under Corbyn. It would help if he indicated he believed we are better off in the single market than going it alone making trade deals with powerful countries and blocs as a small isolated country, but he hasn't. He has never said he thinks we are better off as members of the single market, that I have seen.
You are simply not bothering to listen to them, or even trying to, you have your preconceived ideas and you ignore dismiss or deny the evidence to the contrary.

http://labourlist.org/2016/12/corbyn-an ... le-market/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://labourlist.org/2016/11/britain-a ... onference/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(cJA edit)

Levelling a charge of negligent and/or selective attention against the commentator is wrong.
Willow904's consistent, timely and well-informed content posted here is the evidence making your criticism spurious.

Thank you for the compliment, JA. Not sure I'm that consistent always, but I would suggest that Temulkar is stretching it a bit to suggest that Corbyn's long standing Euroscepticism is somehow a construction of the press or me having pre-conceived ideas. Against that background I'm afraid he has to be more explicit if he is to convince me he will work to keep us as close as possible to Europe. Vague open expressions about "access" that mirror the Tory line is inadequate. Keir Starmer has kept me on board with a definite commitment to the customs union and Ed Miliband has expressed Europhile views frequently enough in the past for me not to doubt his ultimate intentions but Corbyn continually fails to convince me. It is one thing to argue the Lexit route, as RobertSnozers often has. I understand, though don't share, that position, but this idea that a Europhile like myself is somehow being unfair by being doubtful about whether a Eurosceptic can truly represent my views doesn't make much sense to me.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 3:58 pm

HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... se-say-mps

Britain’s rail franchise model unfit for purpose, say MPs

http://www.parliament.uk/business/commi ... hed-16-17/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Interesting point there about fewer bidders coming forward now. Suggests that it hasn't of late been the licence to print money that people think.

Christian Wolmar always asks "What is franchising actually for? " Basically to get the heat off the government.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 4:00 pm

Where are those killer immigration is bad facts in the white paper?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 05 Feb, 2017 4:08 pm

Willow904 wrote:
Temulkar wrote:It's almost as if some have an agenda.
Worred fucking sick about my and my family's future.

That's my only "agenda".

I have noticed the Greens and the Libdems being very clear about staying in the single market as the preferred option, but not Labour. I'm told Corbyn and Labour are misrepresented and am given vague sound bites that could be interpreted in a number of ways and am being asked to take on trust that this means a lifetime sceptic of the single market has changed his mind despite his never actually saying this. I can't, I'm afraid. Talk about the advantages of not having to abide by state aid rules and how Labour isn't tied to the principle of freedom of movement of people doesn't give me much confidence.

Well said.

I can't believe that nobody has taken the Clegg point on and run with it. That Merkel would agree to an emergency brake in return for soft Brexit. Sounds like a game changer to me.